Thesis: Atonal music is crap. Discuss

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

[sir pball]

1. Duh. Real music was perfected by one man, seriously.

Schoenberg, Berg, Webern all did it, and it is a great "experiment" to this day (I'm looking at you, Glass)...but by its very definition it isn't emotional, or stirring, or human.

Simply put it was invented because of this guy. He literally "said all that can be said" in music. He build upon Classical, and Baroque, and everything that came before him, and not only invented Romantic but perfected it. And Romantic is as perfect a musical style as we can ever invent - that's why moving beyond it is to move beyond "tonality" or "melody" or "harmony". Interesting, and important, artistic experiments...but that's all they are. Artistic experiments.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

2. I read recently that almost no one mentions John Cage except in relation to his 4'33"

And then they joke about it. Because, of course, 4'33" is a joke. Oh, Cage may have meant it to be taken seriously, but essentially no one else does.

When I was in graduate school for my masters in computer science, I helped a musician friend write a piece of serial music. I did the actual programming, and a random number generator figured heavily in my code. We set up a tone row and had the computer run a series of variations on it. It sounded a lot like something Schoenberg might have written.

[pangaia]

9. I knew John Cage for many years.

You say.

" I read recently that almost no one mentions John Cage except in relation to his 4'33" "

WTF is that?
Personally, I recently read that the earth is 6000 years old. Does that make it true?

"And then they joke about it. Because, of course, 4'33" is a joke."

People who do not understand something and are to slow-witted to 'know that there are unknown unknowns,' often laugh at what they do not understand.

I worked with John Cage on numerous occasions, did several tours with him, played his music...a lot of it.
I can assure you, he did absolutely take 4'33" quite seriously.
As do thousands of other human beings. Have you ever experienced a performance of this piece? Of course not.

You say

" Oh, Cage may have meant it to be taken seriously, but essentially no one else does. "

This statement simply shows your stunning musical ignorance.

YOU may see nothing in it, and that is fine. But your statement that is it a joke, plus your statement down thread that so-called 'atonal' music is crap and can only be enjoyed by people who enjoy a root canal shows your intolerance for the opinions of others.
If you don't like 'atonal music,' don't listen to it.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

11. I stand by my original statement

4'33" is a joke, and a not very good one at that.

[pangaia]

12. As you wish.

[Bill USA]

3. Is "atonal music" an oxymoron? I think so.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

4. It should be, but it isn't

There's a decent discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonality

[TrogL]

5. Then you may as well stop going to movies

All that "atmospheric" music you're hearing in the background in scary, exciting or ethereal scenes in atonal.

A good example is the Ligeti used several places in 2001 A space Odyssey.

Bach himself wasn't past throwing in a few tritones when he was trying to make a theological point.

[charlives]

6. So your thesis is you think atonal music isn't enjoyable...

...to you ...or to everyone?
What we commonly call "atonal" is really ambiguous tonality. Berg and those people were writing tonal music. There is always a tonal center. You may need to listen many times to appreciate it's language but you can always find a tonic. I've always said "atonality" is a poor label. Atonal should be used when no tones are used.
The second Viennese school is very enjoyable to me. So, if your thesis is "atonal" music is "crap" to everyone then I'd disagree. I agree if you are saying it is crap to you...why would you lie?

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

7. The crap -- and that is the correct term -- put out by the Second Vienna School

Is atonal. It is enjoyable only by those who find root canals enjoyable and read the works of the Marquis de Sade for pleasure.

I have mentioned in another thread that I was taken to see Wozzeck and walked out during the interval. I had to make my own way home, but this was well worth it, since I got to escape from the nastiness being perpetrated in the opera house. I go to the opera for pleasure, and Wozzeck was not pleasurable.

[charlives]

8. You've already made it clear...

...that you don't enjoy music that pushes tonality past Mahler. Fine, listen to something else. Why do you think you know what other people like? I hate root canals....I've had three....I love Wozzeck.

[pangaia]

10. And the Violin Concerto.

Sublime...

[trusty elf]

13. ........

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