52% want bullet train stopped, poll finds

[alp227]

By Ralph Vartabedian

September 28, 2013, 5:00 a.m.

A majority of voters want the California bullet train project stopped and consider it a waste of money, even as state political leaders have struggled to bolster public support and make key compromises to satisfy critics, a USC Dornsife/Los Angeles Times poll found.

Statewide, 52% of the respondents said the $68-billion project to link Los Angeles and San Francisco by trains traveling up to 220 mph should be halted. Just 43% said it should go forward.

The poll also shows that cracks in voter support are extending to some traditional allies, such as Los Angeles-area Democrats, who have embraced the concept of high-speed rail as a solution to the state's transportation problems. The survey results suggest that the current plan and its implementation are of specific concern to those voters, according to officials with the Republican and Democratic firms that jointly conducted the poll.

"I don't think they are against the concept, but they are against the way it is being executed," said Drew Lieberman of Greenberg Quinlan Rosner Research, a Democratic polling firm in Washington.

full: http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-poll-high-speed-rail-20130928,0,5468230.story

[antiquie]

1. I am pro high speed rail but...

Has the route been finally finalized, or are the lawsuits based on the alternative maps?
Does the initial major outgo connect a point A to B that benefits the people?
How are the delays affecting costs?

[itsrobert]

2. This is not high speed

more like medium speed. It's old technology.

[bananas]

9. It's high speed rail, and it's state-of-the-art technology.

It's the same technology used in Europe, Japan, and China.

Maglev isn't ready yet:

Despite decades-long research and development, there are presently only two commercial maglev transport systems in operation, with two others under construction. In April 2004, Shanghai began commercial operations of the high-speed Transrapid system. In March 2005, Japan began operation of the relatively low-speed HSST "Linimo" line in time for the 2005 World Expo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev

[itsrobert]

12. Top projected operating speed is 170mph

In contrast the current operating speeds of 7 other high speed trains travel between 190 to 268mph. That's a big difference. Hardly state-of-the-art when it's almost 100mph slower than the current fastest operating speed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/travel-leisure/worlds-fastest-trains-pho_b_3964344.html

[bananas]

13. No, top operating speed is 220 mph.

edit to add:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_High-Speed_Rail

Top speed 220 mph (350 km/h)[3]

Travel times
From To Distance Travel Time Average Speed
San Francisco San Jose 48 miles (77 km) 30 minutes 96 mph (154 km/h)
San Jose Los Angeles 400 miles (644 km) 2 hours 21 minutes 170 mph (274 km/h)
San Francisco Los Angeles 432 miles (695 km) 2 hours 38 minutes 164 mph (264 km/h)
Sacramento Los Angeles 412 miles (663 km) 2 hours 17 minutes 180 mph (290 km/h)
San Francisco Airport Fresno 174 miles (280 km) just over an hour 161 mph (259 km/h)
Bakersfield Los Angeles 142 miles (229 km) less than 1 hour 155 mph (249 km/h)
Los Angeles Riverside 68 miles (109 km) 33 minutes 124 mph (200 km/h)
Los Angeles San Diego 167 miles (269 km) 1 hour 18 minutes 129 mph (208 km/h)
Ontario San Diego 125 miles (201 km) less than 1 hour 136 mph (219 km/h)

[itsrobert]

16. But the train will not be operating at that speed

I stand corrected. Looks like the top operating speed is 220mph. Still 48mphs less than the highest operating speed of 268mph. And the train will not be operated at 220mph. Hardly state-of-the-art. In contrast, Elon Musk has proposed a 800mph train... http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/elon-musk-unveils-plans-for-hyperloop-high-speed-train/?_r=0

Now that is state-of-the-art that would make the world envious of California and the the US again.

[antiquie]

18. A I understand, further research into the Elon Musk model

has many doubting its viability; he isn't gonna put his money in it.

[bananas]

20. Yes it will operate at 220 mph - but not for the whole trip.

Top speed requires long flat straight runs - which is why the desert is ideal.

Going uphill, gravity takes away power, so it can't run at top speed.
Going downhill, gravity increases braking distance, so for safety reasons they reduce speed.
In cities, federal safety regulations require reduced speed.

On the long flat straight runs through the desert, it will run at sustained top speed.

[bananas]

30. Comparisons to maglev and hyperloop...

The maglev train that goes 268mph is on a track that is only 20 miles long.
China cancelled plans to extend it.

The distance from SF to LA is around 400 miles.
No maglev line has been built anywhere near that long.
I think there is only one long line under construction,
Japan is building a 300 mile long track which won't be operational until 2045.
It's not clear if it will be cost-effective.
Maglev is more expensive to build than standard high speed rail.

I would've supported maglev, but it's not in the plans for California.
So I support the existing plan.


Hyperloop doesn't exist, and Musk's proposal leaves a lot out.

For one thing, his proposal doesn't go from SF to LA,
it only includes the easy part through the desert.

It's basically a hyperloop to nowhere.

The purpose of high speed rail isn't just to build something fast out in the desert that goes from nowhere to noplace, it's to connect high-density population areas. That's why prop 1a required non-stop express service directly from downtown LA to downtown SF. Musks proposal won't come close to providing that.

[upaloopa]

3. People say they won't use it so don't build it.

I think they are Ludites.
You can't pry some people out of their cars

[antiquie]

5. I would use one and I want one built.

I'm not sure this is it.

[Live and Learn]

4. Yet 65% say it will create jobs and help the economy. nt

[JayhawkSD]

6. The system is in direct violation of the authority passed by voters.

The bill passed by voters mandated that the train go from LA to San Francisco at an average speed of, as I recall, 200mph. This farce travels at an average speed of barely above 100 mph.

High speed rail, as defined in the bill, requires that the system has its own unique railbed. This mess shares rail with commuter and freight trains for a considerable portion of its route.

The bill mandated that the system be financially self supporting, maintained entirely by rider fees. Even the most ardent supporters admit that it will not even come close.

The bill was based on the premise of a total cost of $68 billion, with the balance coming from federal, local and private sources. no such funding has been forthcoming. None. The $9 billion voted to be spent should not be spent until the balance of the funding is secured, which it is not, and never will be. Spending $9 billion on a project which will never receive funding to be completed is a gross waste of taxpayer money.

[bananas]

10. That's not correct.

The full text of prop 1a can be downloaded from http://voterguide.sos.ca.gov/past/2008/general/index-pdf.htm

The system being built meets the speed requirements, which are:

2704.09. The high-speed train system to be constructed pursuant to this
chapter shall have the following characteristics:
(a) Electric trains that are capable of sustained maximum revenue operating
speeds of no less than 200 miles per hour.
(b) Maximum express service travel times for each corridor that shall not
exceed the following:
(1) San Francisco-Los Angeles Union Station: two hours, 42 minutes.
(2) Oakland-Los Angeles Union Station: two hours, 42 minutes.
(3) San Francisco-San Jose: 31 minutes.
(4) San Jose-Los Angeles: two hours, 14 minutes.
(5) San Diego-Los Angeles: one hour.
(6) Inland Empire-Los Angeles: 29 minutes.
(7) Sacramento-Los Angeles: two hours, 22 minutes.
(8) Sacramento-San Jose: one hour, 12 minutes.
(c) Achievable operating headway (time between successive trains) shall be
five minutes or less.
(d) The total number of stations to be served by high-speed trains for all of
the segments described in subdivision (b) of Section 2704.04 shall not
exceed 24.
(e) Trains shall have the capability to transition intermediate stations, or to
bypass those stations, at mainline operating speed.
(f) For each corridor described in subdivision (b), passengers shall have
the capability of traveling from any station on that corridor to any other
station on that corridor without being required to change trains.
(g) In order to reduce impacts on communities and the environment, the
alignment for the high-speed train system shall follow existing transportation
or utility corridors to the extent possible.
(h) Stations shall be located in areas with good access to local mass transit
or other modes of transportation.
(i) The high-speed train system shall be planned and constructed in a
manner that minimizes urban sprawl and impacts on the natural
environment.
(j) Preserving wildlife corridors and mitigating impacts to wildlife
movement where feasible in order to limit the extent to which the system may
present an additional barrier to wildlife’s natural movement.

[JayhawkSD]

14. That is what they claim.

You are confirming what I said the voters approved, but the current plan is not to meet those specifications due to lack of funding. Which is the whole point of my post. Thanks for confirming my statement.

For instance, at present there is no intention of building the Los Angeles to San Diego leg at all.

The only segment which has it's own ralibed is the segment from Fresno to Bakersfield. Current plans call for it to share rail with common carriers in metropolitan areas and in some other areas, because completion of the entire system on its own railbed would now cost in excess of $100 billion.

The proposition only funded $9 billion of a $68 billion project. The rest of the money is not coming, the conditions of the proposition cannot be met, and the $9 billions in bonds should not have been sold - the money should not be spent. The end result will be a useless high speed rail in the Central Valley costing $9 billion to transport people from Fresno to Bakersfield.

[itsrobert]

19. It would make the most sense to start the leg from LA to SD

That's where you have the population base that would support it.

[aquart]

26. Gimme!

The idea of any public transportation in this bloody desert I'm marooned in is like water that does not taste foul.

[Piedras]

21. Flinging FUD

Last edited Sun Sep 29, 2013, 03:52 PM - Edit history (1)

There is organized opposition to California's High Speed Rail with regular talking points flinging Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. It is a disruptive technology that many entrenched interests are fighting.

For instance, at present there is no intention of building the Los Angeles to San Diego leg at all.

The California High Speed Rail is to be built in sections and phases, much like our highway system was built. LA to San Diego is part of Phase Two. As shown on this map:
California High Speed Rail Authority PROPOSED STATEWIDE ALIGNMENT
Los Angeles to San Diego Project Section
High-Speed Rail Project Sections
Statewide Rail Modernization

The California High-Speed Rail Authority (Authority) is responsible for planning, designing, building and operation of the first high-speed rail system in the nation. California high-speed rail will connect the mega-regions of the state, contribute to economic development and a cleaner environment, create jobs and preserve agricultural and protected lands. By 2029, the system will run from San Francisco to the Los Angeles basin in under three hours at speeds capable of over 200 miles per hour. The system will eventually extend to Sacramento and San Diego, totaling 800 miles with up to 24 stations. In addition, the Authority is working with regional partners to implement a state-wide rail modernization plan that will invest billions of dollars in local and regional rail lines to meet the state’s 21st century transportation needs.

Step 5 – Phase 2

Phase 2 extends high-speed rail to Sacramento and San Diego, completing the 800-mile statewide system.

[antiquie]

22. One reason people (include me) are uncertain

is that "alternative" and "option" are still on the map and litigation is ongoing.

I am still in favor.

[Piedras]

27. Los Angeles to San Diego map for HSR

Phase 2 of high speed rail is planned to go to San Diego; and to Sacramento.

Here's the map of alternative routes to San Diego: LA to San Diego

[Starry Messenger]

7. Well, I want it.

I think the politics dragging things out have led to this pass.

[Piedras]

8. I favor California High Speed Rail

I favor California High Speed Rail. Voted for the bond issue. I read that construction and engineering firms have opened offices in Fresno to get ready for construction to start. I don't recall a mandated speed for the trains. Instead my understanding is that the express trains are to make the trip between Los Angeles and San Francisco in 2 hours 40 minutes. It will be much faster than driving and very competitive with flying. Some trains will make more stops in between to let people on and off in cities like Fresno, Bakersfield, and others so they will not be as fast end to end. The comfort of a train will far surpass being squeezed into an airplane.

Its much better for the environment when over a thousand people at a time will be able to travel in one train powered by electricity. Trains will provide a good alternative to cars, buses, and plane travel. They will reduce the need to expand highways and airports which would cost many billions of dollars. High speed rail is a mature means of travel in much of Europe, Japan, Korea and recently China. In many of those areas its displaced a significant portion of air travel.

I think it will be a boost California's economy and help areas like the Central Valley reduce their high rates of unemployment. Job opportunities will increase with construction and later as the rail system bring people "closer" to employment. Leisure travel for visiting distant family, friends, going on vacation, school travel for college students, out of state and foreign visitors all will be well served by high speed rail. Certainly business travelers will utilize the trains regularly because they can productively work, in comfort, on the train.

[bananas]

11. That's correct, I provided direct quotes from Prop 1a in post #10. nt

[JayhawkSD]

15. They will do everything you say

But only if another $60 billion dollars magically appears to fund it. The $9 billion being spent will carry people from Fresno to Bakersfield, cutting a two hour trip to 73 minutes. Then the project is complete, because no more money is available to build anything else.

[itsrobert]

17. The train to nowhere

n/t

[Piedras]

23. Opposition FUDy talking point

The train to nowhere

is a FUDy talking point or smear by the opposition. While Fresno and Bakersfield are not major cities nor regions like San Francisco or Los Angeles they are cities and regions with a large population that will benefit from High Speed Rail.This section once completed can become the test track for the high speed trains, and may be used by Amtrak, or other train operators, prior to the time high speed trains begin service.

[Piedras]

24. High-speed rail design team opens office in Fresno

High-speed rail design team opens office in Fresno

By Tim Sheehan — The Fresno Bee

Tutor Perini/Zachry/Parsons, the team of firms hired to design and build the first 29 miles of high-speed rail in the Fresno-Madera area, was welcomed to downtown Fresno with an open house Tuesday.

About two dozen managers and engineers from the three companies have relocated to Fresno in recent weeks, settling into offices on the third, fourth and fifth floors of the Grand Tower, the former San Joaquin Power Co. building at Tuolumne and Fulton streets. The number of employees will eventually balloon to as many as 250 as staff are added to handle engineering and construction supervision chores.

The companies jointly won a $985 million contract for the Madera-Fresno construction project.

[Jamaal510]

25. I never really

understood the point of building a bullet train when people can easily either catch the Greyhound, Amtrak, or just fly downstate.

[Piedras]

33. High Speed Rail fills air transportation gaps

High speed rail will provide convenient, comfortable, fast transportation to millions of people in areas that have few convenient, affordable, air transportation choices. Like the people in California's Central Valley cities and regions. This will not only benefit people in the LA basin or S.F. Bay Area, it will help millions of other Californians too. Many people, because of their location, cannot "just fly" even if they wanted to.

[yuiyoshida]

29. I had thought they said one from LA to Las Vegas would be built first...but

I would love to ride between San Fran and LA. My chances of riding it would be considerably better than taking the Shinkansen from Tokyo to Osaka.. a dream I have always had.

[Throd]

31. If this is such a great idea, where are all the private investors?

[Auggie]

32. Count me as one

Love the concept, but we need to improve local public transit first.