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Sat Oct 18, 2014, 06:32 PM

Mr. Baird, how are Saudi Arabia’s beheadings different from Islamic State’s?

It’s something the Canadian Foreign Minister still fails to grasp.

On Wednesday, the same day that John Baird was greeted warmly by his Saudi Arabian counterpart to discuss coordinated efforts to combat Islamic State militants (also known as ISIS or ISIL), a Saudi court judge decided to pass a death sentence against a leading opposition figure on charges of sedition and “breaking allegiance to the king.”

“We consider the Kingdom and Kuwait important allies in combating violent extremism and terrorism,” Mr. Baird said before leaving for his trip to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait on Tuesday.

Does Canada really see an ally in a country that has carried out twice as many beheadings over one month than the militia it now claims it wants to destroy? According to Amnesty International, 59 people have been decapitated in Saudi Arabia since January this year, and eight in the past month alone. That’s twice the number of Western hostages who have been featured in IS’s execution videos (though there have also been non-Western hostages beheaded by IS). Saudi Arabia’s track record actually makes IS look scant in comparison.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/mr-baird-how-are-saudi-arabias-beheadings-different-from-islamic-states/article21146919/

contrasted with Sun News puff piece for Harper:

From a crisis emerges a leader

....
Other examples are legion. A politician is reviled and headed to certain defeat, and then something happens - a war, a terrorist attack, a public health crisis - and everything changes. What once seemed impossible becomes possible.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper stands at the precipice of such a moment, with twin challenges facing him and his government. On the one hand, there is his (appropriate) decision to lend modest military support to the international coalition against the serial murderers who make up ISIS. On the other, his government's (as yet unseen) response to the metastasizing Ebola crisis.
....

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/straighttalk/archives/2014/10/20141017-065640.html

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Response to arikara (Original post)

Sat Oct 18, 2014, 06:46 PM

1. Let me think here, the beheadings by Saudi is a sentence by the government which is

Recognized as a country. ISIS is not recognized as a country and beheads people simply because they are American citizens or another country ISIS hates.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #1)

Sat Oct 18, 2014, 06:58 PM

2. saudis are executing people for the same reasons as ISIS. not much difference cept saudis have...

lots of oil

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Response to msongs (Reply #2)

Sat Oct 18, 2014, 07:16 PM

3. Are you recognizing ISIS as a government? Each country makes their own laws,

Decides the punishment, I seriously doubt ISIS will be recognized as a country, they are radicals, want every one to have their religion beliefs and if you don't then the men are killed, the women and young girls are turned into sex slaves. BTW, ISIS has oil also, this is one of their sources of funds.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #3)

Sat Oct 18, 2014, 07:33 PM

4. No IsIS is not a government BUT in Saudi Arabia a woman can be executed just for touching a man just

like ISIS does. The problem is one is recognized as a government the other is call a terrorist group.

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Response to diabeticman (Reply #4)

Sat Oct 18, 2014, 08:18 PM

6. Exactly, the guilt of the Americans was being American. I dont agree with

Saudi treatment of women and care less for the beheading of Americans. These two events perhaps should not be on equal terms, a terrorist attack should never be tolerated.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #6)

Sat Oct 18, 2014, 08:55 PM

8. The guilt of being American

The guilt of being a woman

The only difference is that a government is doing the butchering.

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Response to arikara (Reply #8)

Sat Oct 18, 2014, 09:36 PM

9. As I stated I do not like the treatment of women not only in Saudi but many other countries.

Ignorance and the need to overpower the weaker ones, no excuse.

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Response to arikara (Original post)


Response to arikara (Original post)

Sat Oct 18, 2014, 08:27 PM

7. Probably The Chief Difference Is This, Ma'am

People executed in Saudi Arabia are executed for specific acts they have been convicted in court of doing. The act may not be one we consider a crime, such as sorcery or adultery, but nonetheless it is a specific thing the person is convicted of doing. The act may be one, such as drug smuggling or robbery, which even supporters here of capital punishment might not consider warrant death, but again, it is a specific crime, and the person executed has been convicted of it. Most beheadings are for murder. Personally, I do not consider Saudi police methods or court procedures particularly reliable, and expect there are erroneous convictions. But still, people are convicted of a specific crime, a particular act, and most likely actually did what they are convicted of.

A very large proportion of people killed by I.S.I.L. are killed for things someone else did, or for being something rather than doing something. The handful of Westerners killed were not killed for anything they personally did, but as vengeance for acts of Western governments. A large proportion of battlefield prisoners the I.S.I.L. kills are killed because other soldiers or militia have killed Sunnis, or even because I.S.I.L. fighters have been killed nearby in battle. People in areas I.S.I.L. controls are often killed simply for being of the wrong religion, with no attempt, even, made to dummy up a charge of espionage or sabotage.

That people are killed in an antique manner, and often in a very botched effort requiring much sawing and haggling, rather than by a clean sword cut delivered by a practiced professional, is simply a garnish piled atop a profound wrong and injustice. It becomes a ready focus for outrage, but the real outrage is not the how, but the why. The people I.S.I.L. kills are not by any stretch criminal, in most instances; in some instances they are genuine humanitarians, in others simply unfortunates caught on the wrong side of an armed line. This most people will regard as an outrage. The people Saudi Arabia executes are in most instances actual criminals, and these executions rouse little outrage. Outrage at Saudi executions is confined for most to specific instances where it is felt the person was not guilty of the crime, or is being executed for something that elsewhere is not regarded as a crime at all.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #7)

Sat Oct 18, 2014, 10:10 PM

11. Yes, I agree with what you say is the difference

but bombing who knows how many innocent civilians for somebody else's crime is not justice.

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Response to arikara (Reply #11)

Sat Oct 18, 2014, 10:18 PM

13. justice, Ma'am, Is Not The Aim Of The Bombing Campaign: Breaking A Military Power Is Its Object

It may succeed in that, it may not, but it has nothing to do with justice, or even with punishment, for that matter.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #7)

Sat Oct 18, 2014, 10:16 PM

12. An Actual Criminal

Defined by ....

I assume ISIS claims that their victims are ideal criminals. Or maybe just common criminals?

I do not in any way condone the taking of life. And I do not absolve anyone in ISIS nor Saudi from these inhuman acts.

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Response to arikara (Original post)

Sat Oct 18, 2014, 10:08 PM

10. 'On the other, his government's (as yet unseen) response to the metastasizing Ebola crisis.'

Canada has given major help on Ebola:

Made-in-Canada Ebola Vaccine Tested on Healthy Humans in America

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017220814

Ebola outbreak: 1st human trials of Canadian vaccine start in U.S.

http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/10025662333

It looks like the USA got some help from Canada here, as they are not yet living under the Tea Party:

Ebola Vaccine Would Likely Have Been Found By Now If Not For Budget Cuts: NIH Director

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025658125

And are there any cases in Canada right now? Is that what the author is saying, that it's metastasized there?

I haven't seen those posts yet. All the posts above are from the Canadian DUer, applegrove:

IMO, Saudi Arabia stinks. So does Turkey. And a lot of other places. Criminal gangs are doing this in Mexico, previously a lot of Europe used them to kill people, too.

Beheadings are not the only crimes of ISIS, they just make news as the victims worked in the news business. Offenses by ISIS far exceed that one example in the article and here are just a fraction:

From March:

Syria conflict: UN reports mass executions by ISIS

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11334233

From July:

Islamic State committing 'staggering' violations against humanity in Iraq: UN report

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025618306

From August:

Rape and Sexual Slavery Inside an ISIS Prison

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016101067

From October:

Islamic State seeks to justify enslaving Yazidi women and girls in Iraq

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014916657

That's not all they've been doing, that Saudi Arabia is not doing, or at least not on that scale, as we haven't heard of it. Yes, the Saudis do share some of the same beliefs but are a more orderly, yet still unjust nation in our eyes.

And they've interfered in our politics for years. The author may not be looking at the entire picture as this one thing is only part of the larger problem with Saudi Arabia. In singling out one item to criticize them as worse than ISIS, I feel the authour missed the mark.

The method of execution is the main similarity, unless the author wants to go into religions, and no one wants to go there, not diplomatically, militarily or socially. The world doesn't want a global religious war.

Just a few ideas here. I have no love for Harper at all, but feel this is a bit off.



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