I have come to the conclusion that some people truly don't understand how the system works.

[hamsterjill]

I am posting this in the Hillary Group in support of Hillary Clinton. I am posting this after several exchanges in another forum this morning, and a realization on my part, that I want to share.

In my personal experience on DU during this primary season, I have yet to see any poster identifying himself/herself as a Hillary supporter say that they would not vote for Bernie Sanders if he is the ultimate nominee.

But on the contrary, I've seen many, many supporters of Bernie Sanders say that if Hillary is the ultimate nominee, that they will NOT vote for Hillary.

The simple concept is this: IF the ballot is printed with Hillary's name, IF she is the ultimate nominee, and someone doesn't vote for Hillary, then that benefits the Republicans.

No one has suggested that Bernie Sanders supporters should not do everything in their power to get him the nomination. That is to be expected, and is, actually, to be commended. Same for Hillary supporters. I think we all expect to work hard to get her nominated.

But the greater concept of getting a Democrat in the White House, having a Democrat appoint the next Supreme Court justice(s), having a Democrat in charge of terrorism, etc. seems to be lost on some who post here.

It's such a simple concept, that it's hard to believe that some simply don't seem to grasp the concept, but after several exchanges earlier today on DU, I am convinced that we are either dealing with paid trolls (not a new concept) OR we are dealing with people who don't understand that NOT voting for a Democrat helps a Republican.

I want Hillary to be the nominee. I'll be working hard to see that happen. But, IF Bernie Sanders is the nominee, I'm going to be first in line to vote for him because I don't want Donald Trump, Marco Rubio or Ted Cruz in the White House. I will make sure that I cast my ballot for Bernie to keep that from happening.

My experience on DU has been that Hillary supporters understand that. They understand that there are, ultimately, going to be only two names on a ballot and that a choice must be made. Either vote or don't vote. But if you don't vote for the Democratic candidate, you help the Republicans.

Bernie supporters keep screaming at me that they're going to get him on the ballot. And that's fine. That's what they should do. But they don't seem to understand that he may not get the nomination and his name may not be on the ballot.

The don't seem to, in my opinion, see the bigger picture. That is unfortunate as far as I'm concerned because I honestly think that Bernie Sanders, himself, DOES understand the bigger picture, and if he is not the nominee, I fully expect him to endorse Hillary.

Just wanting others' thoughts on this subject. Thank you.

[LannyDeVaney]

1. I agree ...

and I absolutely, unequivocally will vote for the Democratic nominee in the General Election.

"Spite" is not a valid decision making tool.

[question everything]

2. And to add to that

I have seen one post saying the person would not vote for Bernie hidden. (I don't know if the poster was a supporter of Hillary).

Thus, I think that whenever we see a post saying that he or she will not vote for Hillary if she is the nominee, we should alert. The post will probably stay - knowing the composition of the jury here - but I think we should still do. This is a Democratic forum and if you are not going to vote for the nominee in November, then what are you doing here?

[hamsterjill]

3. Perhaps I'm ill-informed or just plain stupid...

But I actually thought that was already a rule on Democratic Underground. That this board existed in SUPPORT of Democratic candidates (plural).

As a general rule, I don't like to alert and I rarely vote to hide posts when I'm on a jury. But I don't think there should be postings on this board denigrating either Clinton or Sanders to the degree that I've witnessed.

There is one particular graphic imposing Hillary's face over Trump's face. This was posted over the weekend and I thought it was absolutely disgusting, sexist and uncalled for. It was alerted and allowed to stand.

[question everything]

7. Same here. I rarely alert and rarely vote to hide

and always provides an explanation. I think that both the alerter and the alrteed deserve this. Also, I've never put anyone on "ignore" - if this function still available.

But the Sanders supporters clearly take advantage of our tolerance so I started to join them in their tactic.

[hamsterjill]

10. I completely understand.

n/t

[George II]

27. About a half dozen long-time DUers here have been permanently banned for advocating...

....for candidates other than the Democratic nominee, whoever that winds up being.

[Treant]

4. K&R

There's no universe in the realm of possibility where a Hillary Clinton Presidency could possibly be that bad...or could possibly be anywhere near as bad as a Trump Presidency.

It actually makes me a little ill to type the words "Trump Presidency." So let's just vote Dem in November so I don't have to be mildly nauseated for four years.

[hamsterjill]

6. I totally agree.

I remember the Bush years. I remember feeling frightened and afraid. Every day that he was in office. I remember the relief that I felt when the helicopter left the pad with George and Laura on it, and Barack and Michelle were the new occupants of the White House.

I remember...and I will never forget.

[LW1977]

5. Bump

[hamsterjill]

24. Thank you.

Welcome to DU.

[BlueCaliDem]

8. Should Hillary lose, I will happily and gratefully vote for Bernie Sanders. It's unthinkable for me

to sit home or do a write-in for some fringe never-been-elected-to-anything candidate, or - worst of all - vote for the Republican nominee purely out of spite. I've learned, at a very young age, to play well with others.

I will do NOTHING to harm the Democratic Party and all those millions of people who rely on Democratic Party policies to survive in this country. It's just unthinkable to me.

Those who are complaining or stating - behind anonymous screen names - that they won't vote for Hillary Clinton should she be (and it looks like she will be) our nominee, are either just pontificating and will actually do the right thing in the end, or they're not Democrats to begin with and who share the same level of hatred for Hillary Clinton that Republicans and Teapublicans do (whatever their true political affiliation).

The vast majority of Liberals and Democrats see the bigger picture. Those with self-afflicted myopia are a small group of the fringe. The horseshoe theory comes to mind when I see them, so I don't take them seriously. I guess their mothers never taught them to share and they've never learned how to play well with others. That's most likely the reason they support a candidate who shares their flavor of values.

[center][/center]

[hamsterjill]

9. Thank you.

Yours is a solid and well-thought post. I appreciate that level of discussion on DU.

[BlueCaliDem]

11. You're very welcome, hamsterjill, and thank you for your kind response.

[BlueMTexpat]

30. +1! Well said. eom

[BlueCaliDem]

32. Thanks, BlueMTexpat. :-) eom

[wysi]

12. Pragmatism is not something everyone has, I suppose

Pragmatism is the recognition that the fight for what we believe in doesn't rest upon a single candidate or official alone, and that it doesn't end when the election ends, it is a constant, never-ending process. If we lose this particular battle, we go on to fight the next one. And that achieving our goals is going to be incremental. This is something that doesn't quite seem to get through to the "Bernie or Bust" crowd.

[hamsterjill]

17. This is quite true.

I wish it wasn't, but it is. In my (personal) exchanges here on DU with Bernie supporters, it's "my way or the highway". My sense is that many of these posters are either quite young and inexperienced, or else posting only to be contrary. Either way, their posts don't advance intelligent and legitimate discussion in my opinion.

[Hekate]

13. Thank you. Just thank you.

KnR

[hamsterjill]

18. How sweet of you to say!

Appreciate the post. I think I'd almost forgotten what civil exchange and discussion was like on DU. So many of my posts in other forums in the last weeks have been met with anger, snarks, and ugliness that it's truly refreshing to me to be having a calm and intelligent conversation on this thread.

[displacedtexan]

14. They're not just Hillary haters, either. Some didn't get the change they hoped for from Pres. Obama

I agree with your observations entirely, and I also think they would be even more disillusioned with BS than they have been with our current president. I bet most of them don't remember how utterly shocked Repubs were when Bill Clinton secured big biz and beat Poppy Bush et al at their own game. Of course, they would see that as selling out, but imagine where we'd be if Repubs had controlled the presidency from 1980-2016. Now, I'm just rambling. But I remember how kind and just Jimmy Carter was, and Repubes (and fringe Dem elements) chewed him up and spit him out. And he had lots of support. BS has... Some kids and a few others who see an opportunity to get their names out there.

[hamsterjill]

19. Your point is quite valid.

I agree that I think many of the posters that I've encountered here that are ranting and raving about Bernie are young and inexperienced. That's my opinion, but I think it's valid.

I agree that, if Bernie were elected, he would be chewed up and spit out. Trump, particularly, would make mincemeat of him in a matter of no time.

As to Jimmy Carter, I agree. And just look at how much he has accomplished BEYOND his Presidency! He's one of my favorites.

[Lil Missy]

15. I made the same observations. If they don't get their way, they'll have a tantrum and create chaos.

It's very juvenile.

[hamsterjill]

20. Yes, it IS juvenile.

I've actually made that same comment before. As I've explained upthread, my opinion is that many of the posters that I've (personally) encountered on DU that are insistent that it's Bernie or nothing, appear to me to be young and inexperienced. Certainly there are others that are old enough to behave better, but the majority appear to me to be trying to act as if they are much better informed than what they truly are.

Again - only my opinion.

And in giving those young posters the proper deference, everyone has to start somewhere, so I'm happy to see so many young people getting involved in the process. I just think they need to understand that it is not necessary to hate one candidate in order to love the other.

[Her Sister]

16. people act like pragmatism is bad

pragmatism is not a bad word:

Definitions:

› the ​quality of ​dealing with a ​problem in a ​sensible way that ​suits the ​conditions that really ​exist, ​rather than ​following ​fixed ​theories, ​ideas, or ​rules:
Example: The ​council has ​operated much more ​effectively since pragmatism ​replaced ​political ​dogma.

a reasonable and logical way of doing things or of thinking about problems that is based on dealing with specific situations instead of on ideas and theories

noun
1.
character or conduct that emphasizes practicality.
2.
a philosophical movement or system having various forms, but generally stressing practical consequences as constituting the essential criterion in determining meaning, truth, or value.

[obamanut2012]

22. I said this same thing to someone this past weekend

[hamsterjill]

25. Nope. Pragmatism is necessary.

Thank you!

[obamanut2012]

21. Bernie will 100% endorse Hillary

And, I hope he campaigns for her like she did for Obama in 2008.

[hamsterjill]

26. I do, too.

I think Bernie WILL endorse and I think he WILL campaign for Hillary. I even used her example in a post previously on DU. When it was apparent she wasn't going to be the nominee in 2008, she got in line behind Obama and worked for the betterment of the party. I expect no less from Bernie. I think he understands what's at stake.

I like Bernie. I just believe that Hillary is the better choice for President.

[GusBob]

23. I was thinking about what you are saying this morning

I look around this group and I see some level-headed Democrats who get the process.

If I look outside the group I see a different group of folks who struggle with their enthusiasm and their hatred of HRC. Last night some folks over there exhibited they plainly do not understand the Democratic primary process at all. It was a tad disconcerting to see their blindness

[hamsterjill]

28. Exactly.

I find, as well (again this is MY opinion) that when they can't advance their argument with facts and information, that they resort to name calling, etc. I've also seen some like-minded posters "gang up" on other posters. I've not really been the victim of that myself (yet, at least!), but I have seen it happen.

It's infuriating. Let's discuss rationally and intelligently. Exchange ideas and LEARN from each other.

Edited to add that I, too, feel that this group keeps the discussion civil and idea-based.

[liberal N proud]

29. Remember, Bernie was not a Democrat until the eve of his campaign.

So many of the BS supporters, I suspect are not or were not Democrats until he declared he was running as one.

You have 2 things here, First, many BS supporters are young and they do not have a clue how it works. They think they can either throw themselves on the ground and we will give them what they want or they will just take their toys and go home. The other thing I get from discussions with BS supporters is they are more like posters from another web site and not DU posters.

All this has made me wonder how Democratic they were in the first place.

Doesn't matter, we just need to make sure we Get Out the Vote in November. If we get everyone to the polls and I do mean everyone that is eligible to vote, then Hillary shouldn't have any problem.

[hamsterjill]

31. I think that's right, too.

Some have even admitted that they are not Democrats and complained that they've been asked to behave as Democrats. I'm thinking of one poster in particular on DU.

We do need to get out the vote and leave no stone unturned. We need to take nothing for granted and always remember what it is that is at stake.

Let the others go ahead and take their toys and go home. WE need to be more responsible.

[DemonGoddess]

33. The whole point you've been trying to make

with some very boneheaded people, is that we're all, after all is said and done, DEMOCRATS. That means that whoever wins the nomination should get our votes in the GE. Granted, if it's not Hillary I won't be a happy camper, but I will STILL vote Democrat.

[hamsterjill]

35. +1000

Welcome to DU!

[salinsky]

34. Thank goodness ...

... for a common sense thread.

I'm new, and I've been shocked and saddened by the everything or nothing attitude prevalent amongst the Bernie supporters here.

The freak show that is the republican primary should be more than enough to scare all people of good conscience into action to support whoever is chosen to oppose their reactionary agenda.

[hamsterjill]

36. Absolutely right!

If Trump, Cruz or Rubio doesn't scare someone, then there is something wrong with that someone!

We cannot let any of those idiots anywhere near the White House!

[salinsky]

37. Let's not forget John Kasich ...

... who was Newt's bagman back in the day, before moving on to FAUX News blowhard and then to the Columbus branch of Lehman Bros.

He's their totally reasonable and moderate candidate.

[hamsterjill]

38. Duly noted.

With Dr. Sleepytime about to drop out (hopefully), what do you think Kasich will do? I heard an interview with Tom Delay while driving at lunchtime today, and Delay (ever still the jerk that he is!!!) was insisting that Kasich needs to stay in until after Ohio.

Ironically, I believe both Florida and Ohio primaries are both on March 15th. That date will be very telling for Kasich and Rubio.

[salinsky]

39. Rubio is apparently staying in ...

... just to trade adolescent insults with Trump.

He's getting hammered in the polls coming out of Florida, so there's no real reason for him to continue.

Kasich still thinks he can win Ohio, Pennsylvania, and/or Michigan.

If can't nab any of those states, he's toast.

And, that would leave the fascist authoritarian vs the theocrat.

What a party!

[hamsterjill]

40. Yeah, I hear you, but I'm a little more concerned about Rubio.

Personally, for me, I'd rather the Republican party nominee be Trump as opposed to Cruz. I'm from Texas and Cruz is just plain nuts as well as being mean and nasty. Please understand, I'm not looking at this here from the perspective of who we could beat in November, but rather looking at it in the worst case scenario, and if a Republican actually won.

Of the three, to me, I'd rather see Rubio be the nominee. I actually believe that Hillary can and will beat any one of them, but let me just play devil's advocate here for a minute.

Trump would be a disaster because he'll bluster and moan and get us into a war. Cruz is worse because he'll get us in a war and say God told him to do it! Of the three idiots, Rubio seems the most sane to me. When I first heard that the Mitster is planning to have a press conference tomorrow, I thought he would probably endorse Rubio to try to give him a boost. But the Mitster's reps (at least) say he will not endorse anyone. Who knows if that's true or not.

Either way, as you say WHAT a party! Nutjobs. All of 'em.