Beauty queen Genesis Carmona is shot during Venezuela protests

[Bacchus4.0]

http://voxxi.com/2014/02/18/genesis-carmona-shot-venezuela/

Genesis Carmona, Miss Tourism Venezuela in Carabobo, appears to be one of the latest casualties of the escalating violence during protests in her country this week.

The beauty queen suffered a gunshot wound to the head according to several media reports, including “Venezuela al Dia”. At least 11 citizens had been injured as a result of the anti-government protests held February 18th in Caracas and other parts of Venezuela. Carmona was in Valencia when the tragedy occurred. It is the capital city of the State of Carabobo, and the third largest city in Venezuela, located in the north side of the country.

Carmona was rushed to the Centro Medico Guerra Mendez in Valencia, where El Universal reports seven other protesters were wounded by gunshots.

The injured were marching from Cedeño Avenue in Valencia to Plaza de Toros Monumental in the South of the city, which ended in clashes with pro-government protesters and police officials.

[Scootaloo]

1. But remember, DU'ers tell us it's the left that's the problem!

Worthless fucking leftists! Why can't Venezuela be more like DU's buddy in Egypt, al-Sissi? A right-wing coup, a massacre of civilians or three, and the nationwide jailing of journalists, now that's how you run a nation of brown people, according to the progressives of DU!

I wish I could use a sarcasm tag, but I've seen enough hate towards the Venezuelan left and the people of Egypt expressed on this site that I don't think it's applicable

[Oele]

3. *please* stop trying to turn every thread in a left vs right argument. :(

The reality in Venezuela is a lot more complex than that.

[Cleita]

4. No it's not complicated at all. It's the power and monied elites at the top of the food

chain vs. the majority of descamisados as is in much of South America. Our American business interests there like this situation so they engage our government in keeping those corrupt elites in power for their interests and the propaganda works for them. This is why there is so much approval of these corrupt elites even here on DU.

[Marksman_91]

5. Please tell me how this is about ideology when...

...unarmed students protesting are being shot at by pro-government forces?

Not everything is black and white as you apparently think it is. One only needs to take a look at the kind of attire that Nicolas Maduro and some other Chavista officials wear. A Rolex? Luis Vuitton suits? $200 rain jackets? Yeah, really leftist on their part.

[Cleita]

8. Revolutions are messy. I witnessed many when I lived in South America.

Both sides do regrettable things. Those in power wield the biggest stick. It's still about those who want the wealth. Those who have benefitted in the past from the oil industry and feudalist patronage system want it back. They hate the fact that Chavez managed to get his hands on some of that oil money to give to the unwashed masses. Oh yeah and they are all communists so we must destroy them. Fascism is so much preferable. Look to my country Chile to see how well it worked out under Pinochet.

[joshcryer]

21. The students get free education.

Do you think they ideologically want to turn to privatized education?

[Cleita]

22. I'm sure they don't and I don't understand your point. n/t

[joshcryer]

23. They would resist such efforts as they are now.

They are currently resisting the crime and violence the country is facing (the protests started because a girl was raped and the police, instead of listening and implementing better measures, arrested students en mass).

If a right winger came along and started forcing students to pay for university (if it wasn't clear, all education in Venezuela is free) then they would go back to the streets again, I believe.

[Cleita]

25. The streets are fine to let them know the temper of the people.

Revolution will play them into the hands of the real Oiligarch.

[joshcryer]

28. They have zero control over anything but rocks and bottles.

They will not be able to have a revolution. They're kids.

[Cleita]

29. They will be helped if there is an advantage to some would be ruling

party. They will be used.

[joshcryer]

30. Chavistas control the military, the judicary, the police, and paramilitaries.

The students literally can't do anything except cause trouble. That's literally all they can do.

[Cleita]

32. No they can't. But they can be used to achieve an end by the Oiligarch.

You can be sure they can control the military once the right coffers are stoked. I really would watch out for those old families coming into power. They can't do it with the present system, but if it's overthrown they will jump in like the vultures that they are. Those students need to work on replacing Maduro legitimately and going from there.

[joshcryer]

34. I don't see how.

Chavez got rid of every single general that wasn't a chavista. Almost all of them have been exiled.

[Cleita]

36. It doesn't mean they won't come back when the climate is right. n/t

[joshcryer]

38. They'd need loyalists or mercenaries.

I suppose it's possible but I don't see how some 70-80 year old dudes are going to be able to pull that off.

[Cleita]

40. Those old dudes have younger heirs who probably have been

told it's their inheritance and birthright. Have you ever wondered in various countries when a dynasty is overthrown, somehow a generation or two later they show up again in the ruins of a revolution to take over as head of state again?

[joshcryer]

41. But it's not a revolution.

*sigh*

It's just kids taking to the street at night. That's all it is. Literally all it is.

[Cleita]

42. Yes I know and I hope it's not a revolution.

It's tragic and awful that they are being brutalized by the party they supported in the past. If guns start being used by both sides, it will become a revolution.

[joshcryer]

43. It's the tupamaros and collectivos and national guard.

They are the ones killing people. Kids with rocks and trash can't do anything but cause a nuisance.

[Marksman_91]

45. There's clear evidence that it's not their own "party" killing them

So far all evidence points to the military and thugs cooperating to intimidate the people. Please show me one shred of proof that it's the civilians shooting.

[Bacchus4.0]

26. thats interesting since there was a long side discussion on one of the threads in LBN

about the socioeconomic levels of the protesters. Given that education is free and unless these students are mainly from private universities I'd guess the protesters span a rather large spectrum. Anyway, for those who don't know what a boligarch is they need to look it up.

[joshcryer]

27. The protesters span a very large spectrum.

If Chavismo did anything right it was getting the under-educated into the Universities. Look at the demographics of any picture. It's not all "fair skinned people" as the racists here would argue.

[Oele]

6. That current "power and monied elite" in venezuela mainly consists of chavistas.

And you are oversimplifying.

It seems that you're saying that *because* US businesses/governments dislike "leftist governments", chavismo must be great for the people of Venezuela and everything that opposes Chavismo must be the result of some secret US plot.

What if the Venezuelans themselves want things to change? What if they have had enough of the insecurity, corruption, empty stores?

It's their country you know, they don't need you or me to tell them when it's ok to protest. They don't need some kind of CIA plot to see that things are going horribly wrong in their country.

[Cleita]

9. So they don't like Maduro. They are being ginned up by interests who want

things to go back before Chavez like the US is getting the ignorant and poor tea baggers to get us back to the good old days of the robber barons and succeeding.

[Marksman_91]

12. Right now I'd say things are worse than before Chávez.

Right now people have to do line-ups to get only a portion of the food they need, and the crime rate has increased dramatically to the point that the numbers from before seem like Switzerland's when compared to the current one.

[Cleita]

13. They are, and they should get rid of Maduro in the next election.

Remember, we hated Bush, but we didn't overthrow the government to get rid of him. Knowing how things blow in South America, this will lead to an overthrow of the government and the elitists will grab the opportunity to seize power and return to business as usual BC (before Chavez). I'm sure our government is in there somewhere meddling behind the scenes. We haven't changed our policy in South America since the Monroe Doctrine.

[joshcryer]

17. Bush should have been tried and convicted in the Hague.

Al Gore was the legitimate president.

[Cleita]

18. I agree and I still hope Bush and his Veep Cheney will

still sit in the docket in The Hague.

[joshcryer]

16. Yes, the boligarchs.

Rich chavistas that steal from the rest.

[Cleita]

24. Something yanks don't understand.

SA is a class society and it has nothing to so with money. Sure the aristocrats have most of the money because they have all the advantages with the money purveyors that the peasants don't have like education, connections, and most importantly family name. Now there are poor aristocrats and rich campesinos but you pretty much stay in your class. It doesn't matter how many Rolex watches, Jags or other baubles you have. Without the right family name you are still shit.

I'm pretty sure that the high class are courting those boligarches as you call them. We call them nouveau riche. Behind their backs they are inciting disgust of them with the Chavistas. That's how they operate, Game of Thrones stuff. When there is a revolution, they take over. Oh, the boligarches are where they started and not part of the country club, not that they ever were.

If those students don't see that overthrowing the government will achieve that, they have lost. You can be sure the aristocrats have courted the military to back them once the Chavistas overthrow the government.

[joshcryer]

31. If you are not a boligarch you are not protected.

The price controls, for instance, somehow didn't affect the boligarchs (those who control oil shipment, contracts for oil rigs, contracts for oil infrastructure, contracts for imports, and mass media). But the price controls did affect lots of wealthy in Venezuela to the point where many of them shut down and bailed.

The students cannot and will not "overthrow the government." However, they may protest for a year straight and by the end of that year they may wind up being able to convince the electorate that the government they have is not in their interests.

Regardless 50 people will die a day in run of the mill crime.

[Cleita]

33. I hope this is what they do because a real revolution would be disastrous. n/t

[Bacchus4.0]

35. no, not really. It is indeed a class society but has everything to do with money.

Society is indeed classified by economic strata. Its not a caste system, its a class system. You move up the social strata with wealth.

Sure there are those who segregate by family, ancestry, and race but the ruling class are indeed the Boligarchs right now. They intend to keep it that way.

[joshcryer]

37. People don't understand, even Chavez lamented the boligarchs.

But unfortunately he didn't determine that he should get rid of them. He should've got rid of them and taken professors from the universities to implement their place in society. Venezuela would look much different, imo. State socialism can work if you have an oil windfall.

[Cleita]

39. You make my point. They are more like Americans where class is defined

by wealth. What I'm saying is if they are gotten rid of, the old order will move back in. They still have their money. I hope the students and others who want to get rid of these players don't do something drastic. When you wreck the house of cards, you have to start from scratch and of course all will scramble in to get back in.

[joshcryer]

47. What could they do drastic?

I would hope the national guard not do anything drastic, like kill a lot of students en mass. That would be the only thing to get the military to intervene. Diosdado Cabello is in charge of the military, he could use that as a pretense for a power move.

Oh and he was the one instrumental in getting Chavez elected, so he's not an outsider.

Let's hope the students are safe tonight, though it is not looking that way, I have counted so far 5 dead in the videos I've seen.

[Cleita]

48. Venezuela has been such a petrie dish to me of breaking the

way things are. Yet, it can implode. Frankly I don't trust our government and their Monroe Doctrine policy of looking at things. They will protect American oil and mining interests without a thought about how it will be done so the nation itself is very vulnerable to all of what has been achieved being destroyed.

[joshcryer]

49. "Maldito el soldado que apunta su arma contra su pueblo" - Bolivar

"Cursed is the soldier who points weapons at his people."

[Cleita]

50. Yeah until they do a military coup.

Sorry, it's usually the military who does it. Chavez did it too.

[joshcryer]

51. The military answers to the boligarchs.

In fact some of the generals are billionaires themselves.

[Cleita]

52. I know that but the military always backs the power they feel will win.

They aren't idealists. Look at history.

[joshcryer]

53. Mostly unarmed street kids v national guard.

Easy guess who wins this one.

Assuming no phantom mercenaries from 70-80 year old generals and some outside invasion force, naturally.

[Cleita]

54. Whatever. None of us knows the future.

I hope it works out to the benefit of the masses, not the elites. I do have that thing about watching ones back because I know how treacherous the power plays can be.

[joshcryer]

55. I predict it'll die down.

Couple of hundred dead street kids. The treachery being on Maduro's head. History won't be too kind to him. I expect a recall election in a year or so and his entire administration will be ousted.

[Cleita]

56. The hundred dead is sad. I hope not, but I do hope Maduro goes

in that way and not by revolution.

[joshcryer]

57. What is wrong with revolution?

I'd rather it be revolution than coup.

[Cleita]

58. Pretty similar.

Destroy the old order and replace it with a new one and it usually ends up being a recycled old one. I lived across the border from Bolivia in Chile in the forties and fifties. The Bolivians were replacing their government every six months it seemed, hanging leaders from the lamp posts, that kind of thing, but it seemed like the same patrones ended up in the government one way or the other. The same happened in Argentina and Uruguay and Paraquay. It's still happening to a point. The aristocratic, ruling family have their footholds, with their money and their connections. Once there is a weakness in the system, the strongest swoop in and take control.

[joshcryer]

59. Wasn't that the "unfinished revolution"?

As I said I don't think the students can effect much change, but if something happens I would rather it be revolution, as a simple change of hands would not be effective, I think that's what happened to the Bolivian revolutionaries, they just gave up to the conservatives and the IMF.

From how I see it the most likely outcome if the students don't quit after a week or a month or so is Diosdado Cabello having a coup and instituting a military junta with Adan Chavez as the defacto leader. Maduro is already talking about implementing martial law in Tachira, he knows he has to nip it in the bud quick.

[Cleita]

60. Neither you nor I have any control over what happens. We can only hope it's not

a bad result. I really hate militia involved in anything unless it's dealing with criminals. It never ends well because of the way they have been trained, the culture. Does not look good. Again leadership is key and there isn't any good leadership right now. Makes the vultures come out. Trust me. Revolution will also bring the bad out.

[joshcryer]

61. I don't think martial law will have a good result.

Maduro invokes Boves in his latest cadena (skip to 1:18):

"Si las fuerzas revolucionarias llamaramos a la locura, como ustedes, que pasaria? verda? Boves, y su leyenda se quedaria pequeña. Si un dia llamaramos a la locura, Boves se quedaria como una leyenda pequeña."

It sounds like he's just saying that Boves is nothing compared to the current uprising (as if street students can do shit). But the implication is that he will make Boves look like nothing.

I'm concerned for Tachira.

[Cleita]

62. I totally agree. Maduro an ass to do it if he does. n/t

[delrem]

44. Discussions in this group sure give an impression regarding who is a minority in DU.

There isn't even a pretense about it - like, there's been no significant advance since the 1950's??
Like, to discuss matters in this group, we have to go through all that shit *again*.

Reminds me of a group I was banned from.

[joshcryer]

46. Sorry, but we're actually informed about Latin America.

That's why we typically don't trudge this stuff out of this forum because people in GD, people in LBN, they are clueless self-congratulatory people who used canned talking points.

[Bacchus4.0]

2. graphic photo Ms. Carmona

[Marksman_91]

7. News just broke out that she ended up dying...

Bacchus, I think you can change the title of the article now to "Beauty queen shot DEAD"

http://www.notitarde.com/Valencia/Estado-de-la-joven-Genesis-Carmona-es-muy-delicado/2014/02/19/306552

Poor girl... May she rest in peace...

Her blood is on the government's hands. I really hope they all face justice when all of this blows over.

[Cleita]

10. Very sad. I do hope she gets justice, but not the kind overthrowing

the government there will get. Because this is what this is leading to and it's not a good outcome.

[joshcryer]

15. The government is responsible.

A new government that actually addresses this violence would be the best outcome.

[Cleita]

19. A revolution will lead to a grab for power from the same

people Chavez fought. Oil and other mineral profits will flow into the off shore bank accounts of their 1%. It will make matters worse. It's how counter revolutions work in South America.

[joshcryer]

20. The boligarchs already control everything.

But I an not calling for resignation or coup. They can recall Maduro in a year or so. New elections. See of the popular sentiment is real.

[Bacchus4.0]

11. very very sad right now. n/t

s

[joshcryer]

14. RIP

[springchick]

65. RIP Beauty Queen.

I hope this wasn't all for naught.

[Marksman_91]

63. Min. Rodriguez Torres claims the bullet came from "her own lines"

http://www.lapatilla.com/site/2014/02/20/rodriguez-torres-iniciaremos-labores-para-reestablecer-el-orden-publico/

So basically they are saying that the protesters themselves shot her from the back, but without any proof. What a scumbag.

[Mika]

64. Sadly, it certainly plays well for the opposition.

Like Neda Agha-Soltan's death in Iran.


"Remember The Maine"


Condolences to her family.

[joshcryer]

66. The Chavistas have embraced the pageantry, sadly.

Chavez should've shut that crap down but instead they paid for damn soap operas. Revolution shouldn't look toward glitz and glamor as an ideal to aspire toward. But I suppose it was too powerful that the chavistas didn't dare criticize it.

I suppose it bodes well for the opposition, if you can say there's a coherent opposition with the 'face' of the opposition in jail, and Capriles distancing himself from the protests. I don't think you can say the students are represented by the MUD but it is possible you could argue that if the MUD (or some variant of it) embraces them, then they will take what they can get.

Maduro is handling this completely wrong.

[Mika]

67. Both sides are. But, destabilization nearly accomplished. n/t

[joshcryer]

68. Lopez played the gambit perfectly.

I may disagree with Weisbrot on some matters but he called it about Maduro arresting Lopez.

The ducked up part is Chavismo has more in common with the students than Lopez.