Female idealization of men

[Bonobo]

"If the male form of objectification is degradation, then perhaps the female form, as demonstrated by the Harlequins, is idealization. Both forms ignore the totality and integrity of the other person in favor of a disassembling of parts, an appropriation of fetishized qualities or attributes (physical in the male version, emotional in the female); both generate a fantasy that, based in real-life desires and unconscious fears, can only be oppressive to an actual person."

-Chick Flicks: Theories and Memories of the Feminist Film Movement
by B. Ruby Rich

[In_The_Wind]

1. I find that very interesting.

[Bonobo]

2. One thing that strikes me as odd and inconsistent

in the arguments of some -is the denying any form of biological determinism, whether it be the denial that men are "more visual" or the denial that men "want sex more" or the denial that aggression in terms of sexuality has a biological/evolutionary component, etc.

BUT, at the same time, when any man suggests that to "objectify" another human is not a Patriarchal thing nor a misogyny thing but a HUMAN thing (in other words, people, as individuals, have a tendency to want what they want though those wants may vary), then we are told that no, it is only men who do objectifying. Male gaze and all that jazz...

So which is it? Are men evolved to objectify? Are we objectifying beasts? Are we special? Are we the gender that behaves that way? Or is it a human thing? Because if you say it is a MAN thing, you must explain it. Are men just jerks because of social conditioning? Is objectifying wrong? Is it normal?

Complex perhaps, and it is much easier to scream "He looked at my butt!" or "OMG! Those photos!", but "objectification" -if it is a real issue - must be much, much deeper than that and I suspect it is a human thing.

[In_The_Wind]

3. Objectifying isn't only a male thing. It's a human thing.

As a straight woman, I'll admit to enjoying watching men.
I am partial to a man with a nice butt and muscular thighs. I throughly enjoyed watching the new roof tiles being installed on my old house. I never said anything to anyone to avoid making them uncomfortable.

Does that make me a bad person. I don't think so.

Should I condemn a man for doing the same thing I do. Again, I don't think so.

All of my life, I've pointed out attractive women to my husbands or my boyfriends. Again, I don't see anything wrong with enjoying beauty for what it is.

[Bonobo]

4. If humans weren't attracted to each other...

we'd be pretty screwed as a species, excuse the pun.

[In_The_Wind]

5. hahahaha

I got your point.


We are all drawn to what we find attractive. A man's mind is important to me. So is his body. The way he tends to his personal grooming says a lot about how he feels about himself.

Somewhere in the back of my mind is the very real fact that if he doesn't like and respect himself ... he's not going to be someone I want to spend time with.

Yes. Physical attraction is important. However, we all have a inner spark that's as important as physical handsomeness.

When I was doing on-line dating, if a man wasn't willing to share a photo, I wasn't willing to waste my time keeping him company on line.

[Bonobo]

6. Yup.

Being attracted to a woman's butt is not incompatible with being attracted to her personality.

The butt attraction is not enough to sustain a relationship if you don't like the personality and the personality is not enough to sustain a relationship if you aren't attracted physically as well.

Seems pretty obvious. And when you are masturbating, thinking about a person's personality really doesn't get the "job" done. Not for me anyway. LOL.

[Warren DeMontague]

7. I don't know where the nonsense comes from, that sexual attractiveness is "degrading"

I know it makes people apoplectic when the obvious is stated, but it sounds an awful lot like religious sex guilt, warmed over and repackaged.

[nomorenomore08]

22. Maybe some, in part due to past trauma, tend to conflate things that are degrading

with things that aren't. I would never say that finding someone sexually attractive is "degrading" to their person in itself - but on the other hand, sexual attraction can certainly be expressed in a "degrading" way (catcalls etc.). As I said, though, it's not the "lustful thoughts" themselves that are the problem, it's the intimidating or disrespectful ways in which some men choose to voice them.

Otherwise I agree - I think feeling guilt and shame about one's sexuality is not only stupid and pointless, but downright sad.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. I would agree with all of that.

Certainly it's possible to get all sorts of things munged up and, in the process, be an asshole.

But to me, the idea that sexual attraction or attractiveness somehow "degrades" people, seems very alien.

[nomorenomore08]

25. I agree. But perhaps we should consider ourselves fortunate, in that respect. n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

26. Some postfeminist crap for the less discriminating. But...

I never get an answer when I ask who wears lipstick and miniskirts and why they do.

[Major Nikon]

27. Lipstick feminists

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_feminism

[TreasonousBastard]

28. Lipstick feminism now? I remember a kerfuffle...

over "lipstick lesbian" that got two people (both lesbians who were fighting over it) banned.

Anyway, I wasn't thinking about feminist politics.

Women wear cosmetics, short skirts, stilettos, and hair extensions. Why is it normal and proper for them, but not men?

It couldn't have anything to do with sexual attractiveness, could it? Nah. That's a myth propagated by the patriarchy.

[Major Nikon]

29. The flip-side of objectification is self-objectification

Evidently women that did those things were self-objectifying themselves and were tools of the patriarchy. Lipstick feminists are a rebellion against this who don't want to be told what to do and how to look by either the patriarchy or feminism.

[rrneck]

8. It's all the same.

It's all kitsch. It just tells people what they want to hear in the simplest terms possible. And when we reduce our understanding of people the same way that's ideological kitsch - and it's consumed for the same reasons.

[nomorenomore08]

21. I guess fantasy, in general, is really about "telling people what they want to hear."

And of course, no real person can ever live up to the idealized "object."

[opiate69]

9. I'm coming to the realization...

That some folk blather on as if they've taken a course or two in "2nd wave feminist studies", and read a little bit of Marx, but didn't really understand either, yet decided to mash 'em together into a world-view heavy on malaprops and word salads worthy of Caribou Barbie herself.

[Bonobo]

10. The "Male Gaze" mistake...

is totally hilarious.

They couldn't even pass a class in Feminism 101 if they make such a stupid mistake.

[Major Nikon]

11. I'm not even sure if it's worth pointing out the obvious errors

They just keep marching on as if nothing happened. The Dunning–Kruger seems insurmountable.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

15. The usual suspects have truly won the day

GD looks like a group of monkeys came in and flung their poo, and a few elephants stopped by and spray painted the walls as well.

[opiate69]

16. Holy Fuck!

Eta:
http://m.

[HappyMe]

12. Apparently my friend Joyce and I are creeps.

We looked at a guy's behind when he was shooting pool.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. That was YOU?!

[HappyMe]

14. Yes. Yes it was.

I'm only human.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. I hope you enjoyed the view...I hard worked on it.

[RiffRandell]

17. So are all of my girlfriends, sisters and I.

Last edited Mon Dec 23, 2013, 11:28 PM - Edit history (1)

To me, that is way more normal that vaginal knitting.

[In_The_Wind]

19. I guess that makes me a creep too.

I really enjoy watching men work.

Have you ever watched a man carry a bundle of roofing shingles up a ladder?

[Major Nikon]

20. I've seen a plumber's ass cleavage

Does that count?

[nomorenomore08]

23. Interesting food for thought. Seems like a book I might want to track down. n/t