Massachusetts Institute of Technology: Making hydrogen power a reality

[Caribbeans]

At MITEI’s 2022 Spring Symposium, the “Options for producing low-carbon hydrogen at scale” panel laid out existing and planned efforts to produce hydrogen at scale to help achieve a decarbonized energy system.Photo: Kelley Travers

Massachusetts Institute of Technology: Making hydrogen power a reality

Hydrogen fuel has long been seen as a potentially key component of a carbon-neutral future. At the 2022 MIT Energy Initiative Spring Symposium, industry experts describe efforts to produce it at scale.

Calvin Hennick | MIT Energy Initiative
Publication Date: June 27, 2022

For decades, government and industry have looked to hydrogen as a potentially game-changing tool in the quest for clean energy. As far back as the early days of the Clinton administration, energy sector observers and public policy experts have extolled the virtues of hydrogen — to the point that some people have joked that hydrogen is the energy of the future, “and always will be.”

Even as wind and solar power have become commonplace in recent years, hydrogen has been held back by high costs and other challenges. But the fuel may finally be poised to have its moment. At the MIT Energy Initiative Spring Symposium — entitled “Hydrogen’s role in a decarbonized energy system” — experts discussed hydrogen production routes, hydrogen consumption markets, the path to a robust hydrogen infrastructure, and policy changes needed to achieve a “hydrogen future.”

...The Hydrogen Shot will be facilitated by $9.5 billion in funding for at least four clean hydrogen hubs located in different parts of the United States, as well as extensive research and development, manufacturing, and recycling from last year’s bipartisan infrastructure law. Still, Dinh noted that it took more than 40 years for solar and wind power to become cost competitive, and now industry, government, national lab, and academic leaders are hoping to achieve similar reductions in hydrogen fuel costs over a much shorter time frame. In the near term, she said, stakeholders will need to improve the efficiency, durability, and affordability of hydrogen production through electrolysis (using electricity to split water) using today’s renewable and nuclear power sources. Over the long term, the focus may shift to splitting water more directly through heat or solar energy, she said....

...“We’re very excited to see hydrogen go from a [research and development] conversation to a commercial conversation,” she said. “We’ve been calling it a little bit of a ‘middle-school dance.’ Everybody is standing around the circle, waiting to see who’s willing to put something at stake. But this is real. We’re not dancing around the edges. There are a lot of people who are big players, who are willing to put skin in the game today.”...more https://news.mit.edu/2022/making-hydrogen-power-reality-0627

“We think that the 2020s is the decade of hydrogen,” - Huyen N. Dinh, a senior scientist and group manager at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL)

Making the case for hydrogen in a zero-carbon economy
Massachusetts Institute of Technology Energy Initiative | Jun 23, 2022

[honest.abe]

1. The key is converting water to hydrogen in a large scale cost effective manner.

Perhaps converting over all these stupid wasteful bitcoin mining systems to hydrogen producing factories. That would solve two problems at once.

[Miguelito Loveless]

2. Hydrogen has a potential future,

but it is been like fusion, x year away for the last 60 years.

H2 for automobiles is dead in the water economically and by virtue of the laws of physics as an energy storage medium. Batteries are about 3x-4x more efficient places to put electricity. It takes around 50kWh of electricity to make a single kg of H2, which will propel your car around 60 miles. The same electricity will take an EV 150-200 miles depending on efficiency and driving style.

Hard to overcome such a huge advantage.

H2 for heavier transport (trains, ships and aircraft) is possible, but still a ways off economically.

[Finishline42]

3. I was hoping someone would put in layman terms

Obviously if those numbers can be improved on, it would change things. Also improvements in fuel cell technology would help with the equation.

Batteries are a natural fit for a solar farm. Use software to predict how much of the electricity is used to charge the batteries and how much to send to the grid, also knowing what the load will be as the sun starts going down. Also the grid has a higher load when the sun is shining.

But I wonder if making Hydrogen is the better use of excess electricity made by wind farms?

Also, IMO, equating H to fusion is a bit much. Making H from electrolysis is about cost factors. Fusion reactors are a technological leap that is decades away.

[Caribbeans]

5. Latest Middle East solar prices at 1 cent per kWh

With large solar farms, Breyer says, production costs can be as low as $0.01 in locations with lots of sunlight
https://www.dw.com/en/desert-large-solar-plants-also-pay-off-in-countries-with-less-sun/a-58284114

Here's the math:

$0.01 cent per kWh equals $0.50 cents per Kilogram H2

(50 kWh - 1 Kg H2)

At 50 cents / Kg - A full tank on a Toyota Mirai would cost ~$2.50 (5x 0.50)

Let's say $1.00 Kg- a full tank for five bucks.

A full tank of domestically produced energy - which equals JOBS - and no more oil would take 4 adults in a 4,000 pound Toyota Mirai around 400 miles.

Batteries are a natural fit for a solar farm. Use software to predict how much of the electricity is used to charge the batteries and how much to send to the grid, also knowing what the load will be as the sun starts going down. Also the grid has a higher load when the sun is shining.

Here's a micro-grid in Northern California that uses solar hydrogen AND batteries together to be completely grid-independent

Stone Edge Farm MicroGrid
https://sefmicrogrid.com

[Miguelito Loveless]

7. Where is all the water coming from in a desert setting?

A necessary ingredient for H2, which is pretty rare in a desert. Assume they crack the water using salt water (which has HIGH maintenance issues) they still have to pressurize (to 700 bar if memory serves), store and transport the H2 around the world, and that adds energy expenditure and to the cost.

You also talk about domestically produced H2, but again, where is the water coming from? A large portion of the country is in drought at the moment, so they can hardly sustain a brand new huge demand for water.

1¢/kWh is the cost to produce, not the retail cost that would be charged to an H2 maker. Yes, some (oil/gas) companies might own both, but in that case what incentive do they have to not charge a price that does not kill their fossil product market outright?

Why do I want to have to go back to taking my car to an oil company owned "filling station" (which I haven't set foot in in 8 years) as opposed plugging my car in every night? (yes, we must solve the charging problem for apartment dwellers, but it IS a solvable problem).

Then there is the beastly amount of maintenance that MUST be performed on H2 stations due to hydrogen embrittlement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

What happens when cost cutting management decides to skimp on routine maintenance?

Using H2 as a potential alternative to throwing electricity away has some merit, but there is still a huge cost associated with it that is not cheap, and involves very complicated plumbing with added maintenance requirements.

[Finishline42]

8. I agree with this sentiment.

Why do I want to have to go back to taking my car to an oil company owned "filling station" (which I haven't set foot in in 8 years) as opposed plugging my car in every night?

I always thought the push to H was just this - a way to keep us tethered to energy companies.

RE: (yes, we must solve the charging problem for apartment dwellers, but it IS a solvable problem).

Why hasn't Musk started a Tesla community solar program for not only those in apts but condo's, roofs that don't face the right direction, people that won't stay in a house very long, etc? Seems like a natural fit. Allow people to buy in as they are able. Credits that follow them with discounts at super-chargers.

[Miguelito Loveless]

9. That is a huge project

and the focus right now is on superchargers, which are now (in the EU) starting to be opened up to all makes of cars, not just Tesla.

Condos and apartments require buy in by the condo association/owners, so that is a non-trivial problem.

[Miguelito Loveless]

10. You are correct

comparing fusion tech to H2 production is unfair, since H2 actually works, just not economically/cleanly.

I was speaking more about the promise of the "hydrogen economy" versus the promise of "fusion" power. Both have been promised as just x years off.

[Caribbeans]

4. "H2 for automobiles is dead in the water"

That is what lots of people selling lithium-ion battery packs want everyone to believe.

But it isn't true.

Here's proof:

Sinopec to add hydrogen to 1,000 gas stations by 2025

March 29, 2021 20:18 JST
HONG KONG -- Sinopec, the Chinese state-owned oil producer, said Monday that it will offer hydrogen at up to 1,000 of its service stations in the country by the end of 2025, signaling support for Beijing's efforts to deploy the gas to help achieve President Xi Jinping's carbon neutrality targets...
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Energy/Sinopec-to-add-hydrogen-to-1-000-gas-stations-by-2025

How can something be "dead in the water" when it hasn't even been introduced yet? And no, Toyota selling a few thousand hydrogen cars in LA and San Francisco only to people that live near a H2 station doesn't count as a market. Toyota has a long term (50+ years) view of this.

China is the game changer - and they have barely begun

Shanghai expects over 10,000 FCVs to run on roads by 2025.

Shanghai has hammered out a mid-to-long-term (2022-2035) planning for the development of the hydrogen industry to help China achieve its carbon peak & carbon neutrality targets...
https://autonews.gasgoo.com/china_news/70020656.html

Miguelito Loveless: H2 for heavier transport (trains, ships and aircraft) is possible, but still a ways off economically.

Germany - who just ordered ~40 more hydrogen trains because the 2 original H2 trains in service now for over a year -worked so well- disagrees.

And then there's Korea

South Korea makes big bet on energy transition to hydrogen.

Yoon Suk-yeol, Moon's conservative successor who took office in May, has made it clear he will continue the hydrogen strategy, in a somewhat surprising move, given that he opposes many of his predecessor's policies. LINK

As for the US - when it comes to hydrogen:

U.S. Has Fallen Behind in Race Towards a Hydrogen Economy, Says Information Trends

But the US has $54 Billion Dollars to throw away on more war. And there's more where that came from, now that the crooks see how easy it was to get that. After the 10-15 TRILLION wasted over the last 20 years.

[Miguelito Loveless]

6. Stories are cheap, actual progress rare

People talk a lot about plans to spend/build, but a lot of what they are talking about is NOT for an automobile infrastructure. There are only a few dozen H2 facilities capable of filling HFCEVs, and only a few thousand actual HFCEVs in this country. Other places like Korea and Japan have more, but they are a small fraction of the infrastructure for BEVs. Tesla, in the U.S. alone has over 1,300 charging stations averaging 8 stalls each, and that number will double in the next 12-18 months.

I have been driving EVs 8 years, and following the H2 economy versus EV debate for two decades, and little has changed. Also, a lot of plants that ARE built get their H2 from methane (the cheapest way to make it) which just creates more damage to the climate.

Again, it takes 50-55kWh to make a single kg of H2. That kg will propel an HFCEV 60 miles at best. The same 50kWh of electricity going straight into my battery will take me 200 miles. That's the math and it can't be argued with. (These values are nominal for simplicity sake, and ignore basic inefficiencies with both methods, but in the end BEV enjoy a 3x/4x advantage over H2.

The oil/gas industry LOVES and promotes the "hydrogen economy" hype because their product gets used to make H2. An H2 economy will require pipes, tank farms, tanker trucks, etc, all the hardware the gas/oil industry already has.