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kristopher

(29,798 posts)
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 04:51 AM Sep 2013

IKEA starts selling solar panels in Britain

IKEA starts selling solar panels in Britain
Updated 1:35 am, Monday, September 30, 2013

STOCKHOLM (AP) — Swedish flat-pack furniture giant IKEA says it will start selling residential solar panels at its stores in Britain in a move aimed at bringing renewable energy to the mainstream market.

The company said it will start selling solar panels made by Hanergy in its store in Southampton on Monday and in the rest of Britain in coming weeks.

It said a standard, 3.36 kilowatt system for a semi-detached home will cost 5,700 British pounds ($9,200) and will include an in-store consultation and design service as well as installation, maintenance and energy monitoring service...

http://www.sfgate.com/news/science/article/IKEA-starts-selling-solar-panels-in-Britain-4855310.php
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IKEA starts selling solar panels in Britain (Original Post) kristopher Sep 2013 OP
Also on the subject of IKEA - heard this story out in Malaga, Spain , week before last. dipsydoodle Sep 2013 #1
Good MichaelKelley Sep 2013 #2
The sun shines enough Cryptoad Sep 2013 #3
They'll pay for themselves in seven years bananas Sep 2013 #4
So says the guy who wants to sell it to you. FBaggins Sep 2013 #5
And your numbers are sourced from...? kristopher Sep 2013 #6
It's just a conservative estimate FBaggins Sep 2013 #7
IKEA's price = $2.60 per watt installed kristopher Sep 2013 #8
$2.74 actually FBaggins Sep 2013 #9
Your angst is dripping from the letters as you type. kristopher Sep 2013 #11
Hardly FBaggins Sep 2013 #12
ROFL kristopher Sep 2013 #13
I included all three factors after you added the FIT FBaggins Sep 2013 #14
I didn't "add" the FIT; it is standard in any payback analysis like this. kristopher Sep 2013 #16
I know,,,, I am surprised ,,,,,, Cryptoad Sep 2013 #10
In most cases, yes. You can sell back. FBaggins Sep 2013 #15
Does that Cryptoad Sep 2013 #17
Depends on what you consider a "need" FBaggins Sep 2013 #18
Is the cost of batteries and their maintance Cryptoad Sep 2013 #19
Much more so. FBaggins Sep 2013 #20
kick kristopher Oct 2013 #21
Solar Panels Still Viable SolarLinker Aug 2015 #22

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
1. Also on the subject of IKEA - heard this story out in Malaga, Spain , week before last.
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 05:27 AM
Sep 2013

Ikea had fitted out the entire roof of the car parking area with solar panels. Just looked it up - see here :

Malaga branch of IKEA invests in renewable energy.

SWEDISH furniture retailer IKEA has invested €4.6 million in installing solar panels at its store in Malaga.

The panels are on the roof of the store and the shelters in the outdoor car park, and will produce 2,821 MWh per year, which is 64 per cent of the amount the store used in 2012.

This is the sixth such plant that IKEA has in Spain and was inaugurated by the Mayor of Malaga, Francisco de la Torre.

In 2007, IKEA launched a project to improve the energy efficiency of its stores and produce more renewable energy. It has since spent €7.7 million and reduced electric bills by €1.8 million per year.

Published in Costa del Sol.

http://www.euroweeklynews.com/news/costa-del-sol/item/114098-malaga-branch-of-ikea-invests-in-renewable-energy

MichaelKelley

(55 posts)
2. Good
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 06:19 AM
Sep 2013

It is good to know that IKEA has started selling solar panels in Britain, I personally like to use solar systems as they are good at each and every aspects including environment.

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
3. The sun shines enough
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 06:20 AM
Sep 2013

in the UK for solar to be practical? Damn seems like most the time I have spent there , it was overcast.

Thats great news.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
4. They'll pay for themselves in seven years
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 07:30 AM
Sep 2013

From the OP:

The solar panel investment will be paid off in about seven years for an average home owner in Britain, Howard said.


FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
5. So says the guy who wants to sell it to you.
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 11:19 AM
Sep 2013

That's common with solar salesmen... but your results will vary.

With even just a 3% cost of capital, you would need a really high capacity factor in order for that to be true... and there are few places (if any) in the UK where you can even count on double digits. I think the UK average is sub-8%

At 16p/kwh, and an 8% CF... you would save about 380 pounds per year. If you finance at just 3% over ten years, you'll pay almost 700 pounds per year.

Which would put the payoff at closer to 18 years. Probably a bit less as prices continue to rise.

Even ignoring VAT and interest... it's still a 15-year payback at 8%CF and 16p/kWh pricing.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
7. It's just a conservative estimate
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 11:53 AM
Sep 2013

Note that the 7year figure (as is so often the case with solar salesmen)... provided nothing at all. Will you similarly challenge it?

Interest rate was just a cherry-picked guestimate... but likely low. 10 home-secured rates are closer to 4%, so loans that aren't secured by the home are bound to be higher.

VAT rate is based on my assumption that solar qualifies for the lower 5% rate. If you want to argue that it should be 20%... go ahead.

UK power prices were from:

http://blog.comparemysolar.co.uk/electricity-price-per-kwh-comparison-of-big-six-energy-companies/

CF is an educated guess based on solar insolation compared to Germany and Germany's CF experience with far more solar. But it's consistent with published estimates. For instance... Bristol is close to the best area in the UK for solar and they estimate 9%.

http://www.bristol.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/environment/climate_change/5%20Bristol%20Sunshine%20-%20An%20Analysis%20of%20Rooftop%20Solar%20Mapping.pdf

So what assumptions would you have to make for 7 years to be true?

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
8. IKEA's price = $2.60 per watt installed
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 12:23 PM
Sep 2013

It isn't that your numbers aren't trustworthy without sources, it is just that your numbers aren't trustworthy without sources.

I don't have any idea what what insolation numbers are for any part of the UK so I wanted to see what you based your claims on.

If I were inclined to spend the time tracking it down, I suspect I might find that there is some factor, such as a feed in tariff**, that explains the difference between your expected-pronuclear-industry-attempt-to-pan-any-good-news-for-renewables and the IKEA statement.


**15.44p - 19.94p

...you will be paid 15.44p/kWh for the electricity generated by your panels (from April 2013), irrespective of whether you use this energy yourself, or export it to the electricity network. In addition you will be paid 4.5p per KWh for any electricity you don’t use yourself and, therefore, export to the network...


https://www.ebico.org.uk/blog/2013/05/13/what-is-the-payback-period-for-solar-panels-now-given-the-governments-reductions-in-feed-in-tariffs-is-it-still-worth-bothering/


What made this news to me was the fact that IKEA is selling solar kits, installed, for $2.60 per watt. That is closing in on the price Germany has achieved with its regulatory structure and shows where we are headed from our current travesty of $4++

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
9. $2.74 actually
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 01:18 PM
Sep 2013

Plus VAT and financing costs of course... but who's counting?

I don't have any idea what what insolation numbers are for any part of the UK so I wanted to see what you based your claims on.

So? You surely knew that the UK was less attractive for solar than Germany... so you knew that 8% was in the ballpark. But you reflexively had to object.

If I were inclined to spend the time tracking it down, I suspect I might find that there is some factor, such as a feed in tariff** ... **15.44p - 19.94p

I'm sure that it was an unintentional oversight on your part to quote the out-of-date FIT (it's currently 14.9 p) and that fewer than half of non-apartment dwellings have EPCs high enough to qualify for that rate. Most people would instead get 6.85 p/KWh. And I'm sure you also just forgot to include any estimate of the impact of the export tariff being only 4.64 p/kwh (rather than the 16 p that I used in the calculation). Solar insolation in the UK is 6-7 times greater in summer than in winter... so for some months you aren't saving (much of) anything at all, and in others you're producing more than you can use and saving 4.64p instead of the 16p that offsetting your own usage would save.


What made this news to me was the fact that IKEA is selling solar kits, installed, for $2.60 per watt.

And what I find interesting is that you think that such a price would be common. Any time a vendor talks about typical installation costs... hold on to your wallet. There's bound to be something atypical about your house that drives the installation costs up (because, like Lowes and Home Depot... you know IKEA isn't actually doing the install). It's amazing to me how salesmen/corporations/industries suddenly become credible sources for you if the product they're pushing is one that you like.

You and I both know that when a solar salesman pitches his deal, it's incredibly rare for his estimate of your payback period to be at all accurate. "Your mileage may vary" is the key and each site is unique. Why play games pretending that we can take IKEA's word for how good a deal they're offering?

If you live in York and your home has some shade... and is too old to retrofit up to the latest standards... and faces in the wrong direction... and presents a more-challenging installation... (etc)... then you'll never get your money back. In other situations it could be much more attractive. Why pretend otherwise?

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
11. Your angst is dripping from the letters as you type.
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 02:27 PM
Sep 2013

The writing is on the wall that solar is set to kill nuclear and now here, in one of your last bastions where conservatives have shifted policy from renewables to nuclear, you see it creeping in also. To make it worse, all you can do is spin, spin, spin...

BTW that's 14.9-19.4/kwh, depending on consumption and export.

In point of fact you either didn't include the tariff at all or you didn't include the displaced usage at the home. Since your numbers were slipshod, we can't know which it was but there is unquestionably a significant omission. Your own reference makes it clear how grossly you erred.

Generation tariff: your energy supplier will pay you a set rate for each unit (or kWh) of electricity you generate. Once your system has been registered, the tariff levels are guaranteed for the period of the tariff (up to 20 years) and are index-linked.

Export tariff: you will get a further 4.64p/kWh from your energy supplier for each unit you export back to the electricity grid, so you can sell any electricity you generate but don't use yourself. This rate is the same for all technologies. At some stage smart meters will be installed to measure what you export, but until then it is estimated as being 50% of the electricity you generate (only systems above 30kWp need to have an export meter fitted, and a domestic system is unlikely to be that big).

Energy bill savings: you will be making savings on your electricity bills because generating electricity to power your appliances means you don’t have to buy as much electricity from your energy supplier. The amount you save will vary depending how much of the electricity you use on site.

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generating-energy/Getting-money-back/Feed-In-Tariffs-scheme-FITs#rates

As for the energy efficiency ratings of the homes, that is a good point considering sabotaging the refit program was one of the key accomplishments of the Conservatives for the benefit of the nuclear industry. I'd expect that the availability of solar at these prices will drive more participation in the new program than the Conservatives would like.

Bottom line? Your calculations as one of "those nuclear salesmen" were/are far less credible than those offered by "those solar salesmen".

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
12. Hardly
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 02:53 PM
Sep 2013

Both to the supposed "angst" and to the nonsense that solar is any threat to "kill nuclear". With a few ideal exceptions, solar offsets fuel costs in more flexible peaking plants... it hardly touches nuclear power.

Particularly laughable is your notion that this is "one of the last bastions" with all of the new nuclear build currently under way.

BTW that's 14.9-19.4/kwh, depending on consumption and export.

What size was the installation in the OP? What would the FIT be at that size?

Starting tomorrow (https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/ofgem-publications/82343/fit-tariff-table-1-october-2013-pv-only.pdf), the middle rate is 13.4

In point of fact you either didn't include the tariff at all or you didn't include the displaced usage at the home.

I didn't claim to include either. I added it only after you decided to include the FIT as part of the calculation.

Your own reference makes it clear how grossly you erred.

A reference that you cite... and then forget to point out where it actually disagrees with what I said?

Bottom line?

The bottom line is that seven years wasn't close to reality for the majority of UK consumers.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
13. ROFL
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 03:04 PM
Sep 2013

I explained the mistake (you omitted either the FIT or the displaced usage) and quoted the section from your reference that documents those three factors to be considered. You made a big mistake, admit it and move on.

As for solar not impacting nuclear - that is a huge hardy-har-har. Merchant nuclear plants are made profitable almost exclusively by reserving a portion of their generation to be sold on the short term power markets to meet daily peaking needs, where all accepted bidders into the system receive the same amount of compensation per MWh as the highest bidder (which is usually a gas plant).

Since solar impacts that peaking market by reducing peak demand, with any substantial penetration it can be DEPENDED UPON to lower the amount of money flowing into that market to a fraction of what it would otherwise be thus making not only natural gas, but also nuclear (and coal) big losers.

Buck up; it's for the best.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
14. I included all three factors after you added the FIT
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 03:26 PM
Sep 2013

I started with the simple "how much would such a unit produce and how much would a consumer pay for that much electricity?". You added the FIT consideration (and that's fine) so I pointed out that it's still nowhere near a 7-year payback (as the above-my-estimate FIT-included rate is largely offset by the lower-than-my estimate price for surplus production). We can get even more detailed and pick a sample home, how it's facing, how much shade there is, what part of the UK it's in. the current usage (etc etc etc) and get right down to a specific estimate, but what's the point? It's clear that the IKEA estimate is both overly optomistic and dramatically oversimplified. You pointing out that my more-detailed estimate was still inadequate just proves the point.

I received the same sort of blown-sunshine estimate when I installed my tankless unit. Two companies quoted installed prices on their sales pitch... but the actual extimate for my site (easier than most) was much higher.

In the end, I received the installation for free... but I always caution those who ask about it that installation costs make or break the economy of such units. And, as with solar, I'm a big fan. It's just that I'm a realist. "Your mileage may vary" is the key. UK consumers have access to a real answer for their home and they should use it.


As for solar not impacting nuclear - that is a huge hardy-har-har. Merchant nuclear plants are made profitable almost exclusively by reserving a portion of their generation to be sold on the short term power markets to meet daily peaking needs

Since solar impacts that peaking market by reducing peak demand


And what portion of nuclear plants worldwide are merchant plants? Also... what portion of the year does solar impact short-term market to any significant degree?

Wind maybe... but not solar.

it can be DEPENDED UPON to lower the amount of money flowing into that market

It most certainly can not be "DEPENDED UPON" to do that. That would only occur to the extent that public policy artifically rigs the markets to make it occur. As Germany is clearly showing, the government's appetite for such support wanes. No government is going to leave in place an artificial market where producers are paid high rates for production with low (in some cases negative) market value.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
16. I didn't "add" the FIT; it is standard in any payback analysis like this.
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 04:43 PM
Sep 2013

Especially when you are criticizing the piece as being a sales pitch, you would absolutely know that it would be included.

And now in your attempt to slither away, you've written that you "included all three factors" after I pointed out that you had falsified your "analysis" by omitting the FIT.

Here is that paragraph and your claims:

... fewer than half of non-apartment dwellings have EPCs high enough to qualify for that rate. Most people would instead get 6.85 p/KWh.


Maybe; but if we are going to play the supposition game about what people are going to qualify for, then perhaps those who elect to go for the solar purchase will also investigate and sign up for the energy efficiency program that the Conservative's have tried to kill for the nuclear lobby. In other words, the unintended consequence could just as easily be a '2fer' with interest in low cost solar driving both solar purchases AND energy efficiency retrofits. They reference the average homeowner, so again, given your track record of playing fast and loose with the truth (as documented here), I'd need to see something solid to show that the average homeowner in Britain has a energy efficiency rating lower than D.


Here's the meat of your claim about including "all three factors".
And I'm sure you also just forgot to include any estimate of the impact of the export tariff being only 4.64 p/kwh (rather than the 16 p that I used in the calculation). Solar insolation in the UK is 6-7 times greater in summer than in winter... so for some months you aren't saving (much of) anything at all, and in others you're producing more than you can use and saving 4.64p instead of the 16p that offsetting your own usage would save.


Now, compare the either/or dichotomy you've crafted with the two quotes I provided:
...you will be paid 15.44p/kWh for the electricity generated by your panels (from April 2013), irrespective of whether you use this energy yourself, or export it to the electricity network. In addition you will be paid 4.5p per KWh for any electricity you don’t use yourself and, therefore, export to the network...


And
Generation tariff: your energy supplier will pay you a set rate for each unit (or kWh) of electricity you generate. Once your system has been registered, the tariff levels are guaranteed for the period of the tariff (up to 20 years) and are index-linked.

Export tariff: you will get a further 4.64p/kWh from your energy supplier for each unit you export back to the electricity grid, so you can sell any electricity you generate but don't use yourself. This rate is the same for all technologies. At some stage smart meters will be installed to measure what you export, but until then it is estimated as being 50% of the electricity you generate (only systems above 30kWp need to have an export meter fitted, and a domestic system is unlikely to be that big).

Energy bill savings: you will be making savings on your electricity bills because generating electricity to power your appliances means you don’t have to buy as much electricity from your energy supplier. The amount you save will vary depending how much of the electricity you use on site.



Now lets rewrite the first quote using terms instead of numbers:
...you will be paid the generation tariff for the electricity generated by your panels ... irrespective of whether you use this energy yourself, or export it to the electricity network. In addition you will be the export tariff for any electricity you don’t use yourself and, therefore, export to the network...


So the formula is
Income Stream = Energy Bill Savings + Generation Tariff for 100% of production + Export Tariff for 50% of production*

Not.....

How in the hell would you write your so called calculations so that they are legible and comprehensible?
...and I'm sure you also just forgot to include any estimate of the impact of the export tariff being only 4.64 p/kwh (rather than the 16 p that I used in the calculation). Solar insolation in the UK is 6-7 times greater in summer than in winter... so for some months you aren't saving (much of) anything at all, and in others you're producing more than you can use and saving 4.64p instead of the 16p that offsetting your own usage would save.


Your words and numbers throughout look like the kind of presentation any shady salesperson would make who is intent on hiding relevant information from the consumer.

So I close by repeating my previous statement:
"Bottom line? Your calculations as one of "those nuclear salesmen" were/are far less credible than those offered by "those solar salesmen". "

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
10. I know,,,, I am surprised ,,,,,,
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 01:54 PM
Sep 2013

plus I am always cautious of claims made by people trying to sell me something, heh?


In the UK can you sell your surplus electricity back the power supplier?

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
15. In most cases, yes. You can sell back.
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 03:42 PM
Sep 2013

It's at a reduced rate (rather than a direct offset of kWh that you purchase), but there's also a Feed-In-Tariff that you earn regardless of whether you consumer the power yourself or sell it back. In many cases, that comes close to the consumer price.

The size of the FIT largely depends on how energy efficient your home is.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
18. Depends on what you consider a "need"
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 05:25 PM
Sep 2013

To get the FIT at that level or sell back, you need to be connected to the grid... so you don't need batteries as long as you don't have a blackout. I suppose you could see some marginal utility for batteries by shifting some of your generation over to offset more-expensive personal use later... but they're still awfully expensive for that purpose.

Cryptoad

(8,254 posts)
19. Is the cost of batteries and their maintance
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 05:31 PM
Sep 2013

more costly than the special equipment need to sell and feed back into the system. ?

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
20. Much more so.
Mon Sep 30, 2013, 07:48 PM
Sep 2013

Most of what you need in order to sell back to the grid is already needed in order for it to be useful in your home.

The extra expense is much smaller than the cost of any significant amount of battery storage.

SolarLinker

(1 post)
22. Solar Panels Still Viable
Mon Aug 17, 2015, 12:26 PM
Aug 2015

This thread is a little old and the Feed-in Tariff has certainly decreased since then, but we have some valuable insight that will help current and future readers of the thread.

Solar panels are still a very viable investment in the UK, despite the overcast weather and slash in Feed-in Tariff prices. We have recently done a detailed analysis into the UK's residential solar pv market which can be fount at the following link:

[link:http://solarlinker.co.uk/blog/uk-solar-panels-cost-earnings-are-they-worth-it-july-2015-i146|.

Our study aims to accurately estimate the payback period, earnings, profit and ROI of a 4kW pv system for different regions of the UK. The data has been displayed on 5 colour coded maps for easy interpretation.

In summary, At the price IKEA was offering a 3.36 kW system then, one can now buy a 4kW system (at the cheaper end of the spectrum). But even assuming the cost of a 4kW solar pv system at a more considerable price of £6,700, a homeowner in the UK with a south facing roof can recoup the cost of the system in approximately 9 years and generate earnings of £18,000 over the systems lifetime of 25 years. This gives an annualised return of 10.2%, which is better than many stock market investments such as the FTSE 100!

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