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caraher

(6,278 posts)
Sat Feb 4, 2012, 06:13 PM Feb 2012

Power paradox: Clean might not be green forever

Basically, this New Scientist piece points out that power consumption increases may well cause noticeable local or global climate effects, even if we use the "greenest" sources of energy. The main issue is waste heat.

"A better, richer and happier life for all our citizens." That's the American dream. In practice, it means living in a spacious, air-conditioned house, owning a car or three and maybe a boat or a holiday home, not to mention flying off to exotic destinations.

The trouble with this lifestyle is that it consumes a lot of power. If everyone in the world started living like wealthy Americans, we'd need to generate more than 10 times as much energy each year. And if, in a century or three, we all expect to be looked after by an army of robots and zoom up into space on holidays, we are going to need a vast amount more. Where are we going to get so much power from?

It is clear that continuing to rely on fossil fuels will have catastrophic results, because of the dramatic warming effect of carbon dioxide. But alternative power sources will affect the climate too. For now, the climatic effects of "clean energy" sources are trivial compared with those that spew out greenhouse gases, but if we keep on using ever more power over the coming centuries, they will become ever more significant.

While this kind of work is still at an early stage, some startling conclusions are already beginning to emerge. Nuclear power - including fusion - is not the long-term answer to our energy problems. Even renewable energies such as wind power will have to be used with caution, because large-scale extraction could have both local and global effects. These effects are not necessarily a bad thing, though. We might be able to exploit them to geoengineer the climate and combat global warming.


26 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Power paradox: Clean might not be green forever (Original Post) caraher Feb 2012 OP
That's why I worry about cheap fusion... hunter Feb 2012 #1
To this article, I say, "Well, Duh." There are too many humans on the globe. NYC_SKP Feb 2012 #2
To me it's an interesting quantitative assessment caraher Feb 2012 #3
This is an outlier opinion, and there really is no hard limit. wtmusic Feb 2012 #5
Photovoltaic panels actually remove the sun's energy from the "local ambient" Kolesar Feb 2012 #4
True, but solar panels are dark wtmusic Feb 2012 #6
Save your wind... PamW Feb 2012 #7
Asphalt roofs absorb almost all of the solar energy that hits them. PVs don't Kolesar Feb 2012 #8
U PamW Feb 2012 #9
Why are you comparing the solar cell to the ground... Nederland Feb 2012 #10
Asphalt not in original post PamW Feb 2012 #12
“8. Asphalt roofs absorb almost all of the solar energy that hits them. PVs don't” OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 #13
OH FOR PEET'S SAKE!! PamW Feb 2012 #16
Tell you what… OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 #17
Guess What - You've Discovered the 2nd Law PamW Feb 2012 #19
OK, so what you’re saying is… OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 #21
Operative word is "could" PamW Feb 2012 #23
What nuclear power system can I buy at my local hardware store? OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 #24
How many cars can you build in your backyard? FBaggins Feb 2012 #25
Your comparison is not relevent OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 #26
Since you are obviously not schooled in Physics PamW Feb 2012 #11
Ironic quote to choose OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 #18
We’re a long way from this being a problem OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 #14
Right caraher Feb 2012 #15
I didn't say it was a problem!! PamW Feb 2012 #20
I’ve never seen/heard this claim made OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 #22

hunter

(38,311 posts)
1. That's why I worry about cheap fusion...
Sat Feb 4, 2012, 07:55 PM
Feb 2012

... with that kind of energy we could eat the entire planet.


 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
2. To this article, I say, "Well, Duh." There are too many humans on the globe.
Sat Feb 4, 2012, 08:53 PM
Feb 2012

Even without ANY technology or consumption of fossil fuels, we are too many for the carrying capacity of this planet.

Even using 100% green energy, even using half of it, even if our population stopped growing, we are TOO much for this planet to carry without degradation, even for one week.

Most governments turn a blind eye to the population question, without addressing it everything else is just finding ways to delay inevitable collapse.

caraher

(6,278 posts)
3. To me it's an interesting quantitative assessment
Sun Feb 5, 2012, 09:08 AM
Feb 2012

There's definitely a hard limit out there and this takes a stab at finding what it is in terms of raw energy use. Other factors almost certainly pose more severe limits on the population Earth can support.

Of course, our impact is something like the product of raw population and the lifestyles they lead. A billion leading American lifestyles is very different from a billion people living at bare subsistence levels.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
5. This is an outlier opinion, and there really is no hard limit.
Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:16 AM
Feb 2012

The earth radiates heat, like all heated masses, in a non-linear fashion - the hotter it is, the faster that energy is radiated away.

Take away the CO2 "blanket" that's covering the earth, and all the waste heat energy humans can conceivably create won't be an issue.

Kolesar

(31,182 posts)
4. Photovoltaic panels actually remove the sun's energy from the "local ambient"
Sun Feb 5, 2012, 09:14 AM
Feb 2012

They remove the energy that would have heated the neighborhood and then the energy is turned into heat when it is used. But that energy would have been turned into heat if the electricity was sourced from coal or nukes anyway.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
6. True, but solar panels are dark
Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:18 AM
Feb 2012

and unless they are covering a similarly dark surface (at sea, for example) a lot of that energy would be reflected back into space.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
7. Save your wind...
Sun Feb 5, 2012, 07:47 PM
Feb 2012

True, but solar panels are dark
============================

Save your wind... I tried to point this scientifically correct fact out to this group a long time ago.

A solar power panel is not "heat neutral"; it has an effect. It changes the albedo of the surface
it covers.

Many don't realize that most of the solar energy that falls on a given surface is actually re-radiated back to space according to the Stephan-Boltzmann Law. That is the heat flux is proportional to the 4-th power of the objects temperature.

Most land area is dirt or grass-covered; that is they are NOT dark colors.

A solar panel in order to be efficient and capture energy efficiently has to be black or dark in color.
If it's not dark or black in color; then it's not a very efficient solar panel because it will be reflecting and re-radiating sunlight that it could have captured and made electricity out of.

So most solar panels are dark, so they are not tossing away efficiency. Because of that, one is altering the albedo of the land the solar panels are covering. Instead of radiating energy back to space, the panel is capturing it. However, the solar panel is NOT 100% efficient. Some of the energy that would have been radiated to space, is captured by the panel, is NOT turned into electricity; but instead is turned into heat, and that heat is deposited locally by what ever method is used to cool the panels.

Therefore, solar panels are "thermally polluting".

There are those that show their ignorance of the physics by saying that the solar panel is thermally neutral because the energy was falling on that part of the ground anyway.

What these types don't realize is that while the solar energy is falling on the ground, the ground was re-radiating that energy back to space. The solar panel stops this re-radiation because it wants a chance to turn that energy into electricity. If the solar panel were 100% efficient and turned all the energy that it did not allow to be re-radiated into electricity, then it would be thermally neutral.

However, it is impossible for a solar panel to be 100% efficient - the Laws of Physics don't permit it. For example, the efficiency of a solar panel is limited by the "quantum efficiency". ) Because the solar panel is NOT 100% efficient, some of the energy the solar panel did not allow to escape gets turned into heat.

When I attempted to get a post to that effect across some time back, all the solar proponents went "high order" because they claimed their favorite way to generate electricity couldn't possibly have a down side.

If you doubt it; go ask a Physics Professor at the nearest University.

PamW

PamW

(1,825 posts)
9. U
Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:52 PM
Feb 2012

We have another solar proponent that doesn't know his Physics.

It's NOT REQUIRED that the solar cell has to absorb "almost all" the solar energy.

ALL that is required is for the solar cell be "darker" the the ground
that it is shadowing.

The solar cell absorbs more energy than would the ground, and doesn't
re-radiate, but turns some to electricity; but NOT ALL.

As long as the solar cell is NOT 100% efficient, and NONE are; ALL that is
required is that the solar cell is darker than the ground that it shadows.

As most solar cells are either black, or dark blue, or some other dark color;
the solar cell will be darker than the ground it shadows, and hence will
be a thermal polluter.

PamW

Nederland

(9,976 posts)
10. Why are you comparing the solar cell to the ground...
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 12:02 AM
Feb 2012

...when the poster explicitly compares it to the asphalt roof that 90% of them sit upon?

PamW

(1,825 posts)
12. Asphalt not in original post
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 11:33 AM
Feb 2012

Contrary to your claim above, asphalt was not explicitly stated in the original post.

One realy doesn't worry about thermal pollution in a city setting; where the solar panel is on asphalt.

If solar is going to be a major player in the energy market; it will have to transition from just rooftops
in cities to large areas of open space. There is where we have the concern for thermal pollution and
not in cities. Cities are already heat islands.

PamW

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
13. “8. Asphalt roofs absorb almost all of the solar energy that hits them. PVs don't”
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 02:02 PM
Feb 2012

You likely missed that asphalt roofs were explicitly mentioned in the title of the posting you replied to.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
16. OH FOR PEET'S SAKE!!
Tue Feb 7, 2012, 11:05 AM
Feb 2012

LOOK at the THREAD!!

My original claims were made BEFORE Kolesar mentioned asphalt!!

You likely missed that in my reply to you, I said that asphalt was not mentioned in "the original post"
and it wasn't.

Kolesar brought up the issue of asphalt in a later rebuttal.

However, in any case, you and Kolesar are both showing that you don't understand the relevant physics.

Although the asphalt absorbs the sunlight, it is going to RE-RADIATE that energy according to the
Stephan Boltzmann law; the rate being proportional to the 4-th power of the temperature:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/stefan.html

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/stefan.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan%E2%80%93Boltzmann_law

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/564843/Stefan-Boltzmann-law

You can't allow your solar panels' temperature to rise to the same level, or they would radiate all the energy they receive back to space as the asphalt does, and you would have nothing to turn into electricity. Additionally, the solar panel is NOT 100% efficient, so all that energy doesn't go away as electricity; even a solar panel produces "waste heat". Therefore, the panel has to have something to cool it - which can be the ambient air. However, in doing so the solar panel is depositing "waste heat" and is thermally polluting the environment. The environment is having heat added to it that would not be there otherwise if the solar panel were not present.

Physics is Physics; you can't beat Physics with all the obfuscation or weasel-wording in the world.

PamW

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
17. Tell you what…
Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:14 PM
Feb 2012

Just how big a problem do you really think this is?

How much waste heat is produced by a solar panel, compared to the amount of usable electricity that is produced?

A typical nuclear plant produces about twice as much energy in the form of waste heat as it does as usable electricity.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/cooling_power_plants_inf121.html

PamW

(1,825 posts)
19. Guess What - You've Discovered the 2nd Law
Tue Feb 7, 2012, 08:32 PM
Feb 2012

Guess What - You've Discovered the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics!!! Good for you.

It's a universal Law of Physics; and is why nuclear power plants produce as much waste heat as the do.

As for solar cells, there have been a few that have gotten a little more than 30% efficienct:

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/12/18/391673/discovery-boost-solar-cell-efficiency-at-low-cost/?mobile=nc

The maximum theoretical efficiency of the silicon solar cell in use today is approximately 31 percent, because much of the sun’s energy hitting the cell is too high to be turned into usable electricity. That energy, in the form of “hot electrons,” is instead lost as heat.


Your typical solar cell that you buy today is about 20% efficient; not even as efficient as nuclear plants.

PamW

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
21. OK, so what you’re saying is…
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 02:10 PM
Feb 2012

…that while today’s typical nuclear plant generates about twice as much waste heat as electricity, today’s solar panel generates… what… 4 times as much waste heat? (assuming that it is a perfect “black body,” absorbing 100% of the sunlight striking it, but only producing 20% of that energy as electricity, and the remaining 80% as heat.)


It’s interesting how the paragraph you’ve chosen to make your point neatly avoids the whole point of the article you’ve excerpted it from; i.e. that a new technology could produce much higher efficiency. (Making the waste heat from a solar panel lower than that of a typical nuclear plant, even if it were a perfect “black body.”)

http://www.utexas.edu/news/2011/12/15/dark_state/

[font face=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][font size=5]Discovery of a ‘Dark State’ Could Mean a Brighter Future for Solar Energy[/font]

Dec. 15, 2011

[font size=3]…

Zhu and his team previously demonstrated that those hot electrons could be captured using semiconductor nanocrystals. They published that research in Science in 2010, but Zhu says the actual implementation of a viable technology based on that research is very challenging.

"For one thing," said Zhu, "that 66 percent efficiency can only be achieved when highly focused sunlight is used, not just the raw sunlight that typically hits a solar panel. This creates problems when considering engineering a new material or device."

To circumvent that problem, Zhu and his team have found an alternative. They discovered that a photon produces a dark quantum "shadow state" from which two electrons can then be efficiently captured to generate more energy in the semiconductor pentacene.

Zhu said that exploiting that mechanism could increase solar cell efficiency to 44 percent without the need for focusing a solar beam, which would encourage more widespread use of solar technology.

…[/font][/font]

PamW

(1,825 posts)
23. Operative word is "could"
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 02:52 PM
Feb 2012

The operative word is "could".

Quoting:

Zhu said that exploiting that mechanism could increase solar cell efficiency to 44 percent ...

They haven't done it yet; and they haven't done it in a way that you'll find in your hardware store.

There have been lots of solar panel trials in which they get to 40% or more in the laboratory. The problem is you might have to keep the panel supplied with liquid nitrogen, or something just as exotic; so you know you aren't going to find such panels on anyone's roof soon.

I'm not implying that they should stop trying...

However, you are correct about the current "state of the art" solar panels that you buy currently; they aren't even as efficient as nuclear power plants; but that doesn't stop the anti-nuke / pro-solar contingent from denigrating nuclear power due to its efficiency.

People who live in solar-powered glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

PamW

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
24. What nuclear power system can I buy at my local hardware store?
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 05:00 PM
Feb 2012

Can I get someone to install it at my home?

Perhaps there are some advantages to solar which outweigh the fact that it has a comparable amount of waste heat to nuclear fission?

FBaggins

(26,731 posts)
25. How many cars can you build in your backyard?
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 05:17 PM
Feb 2012

Sometimes it makes more sense for someone else to produce something in large quantities and pay them to provide it to you.

It hardly ever makes sense to provide your own power through solar panels. Ignoring specific price/incentive options, hardly anyone would try it if there wasn't a larger producer/distributor willing to back them up for a MUCH lower price than it would cost you to do it yourself.

Solar PV makes LOTS of sense in specific cases (and there's plenty of room for growth)... but it's a permanent niche product until someone invents much better storage options.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
26. Your comparison is not relevent
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 06:28 PM
Feb 2012

I will not build my own car. I will buy it pre-made.
I will not build my own solar panel either. I would buy it pre-made as well.
I will not build my own nuclear reactor. I cannot buy one retail.

I don’t have solar panels on my home. I don’t have a wind turbine.
Economies of scale make sense to me.
I purchase “green” electricity (40% wind, 60% “certified low-impact hydro”) through my utility.
Although, if my house were situated differently… I might just do it!


Be that as it may, I think you will agree that grid electricity prices will continue to increase while the cost of home photovoltaic systems will continue to decrease (right?)


As such, a home photovoltaic system (which produces most of its electricity during “peak” demand hours) will make more and more economic sense as time goes on.

However, there are other things to consider here. Like, between you and me, “Climate Change?” it’s real.

Homeowners who are concerned about this reality can put solar panels on their roofs much faster than utilities can build new nuclear plants.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
11. Since you are obviously not schooled in Physics
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 12:14 AM
Feb 2012

Since you are obviously not schooled in Physics, why do you even
attempt to rebut someone who has her PhD in Physics from MIT?

Do you not know of the quote due to Abraham Lincoln:

http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Abraham_Lincoln

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
--Abraham Lincoln

PamW

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
18. Ironic quote to choose
Tue Feb 7, 2012, 07:47 PM
Feb 2012

Abraham Lincoln may have said it, but if he did, it wasn’t original, any more than “A house divided against itself cannot stand…” Both are Biblical allusions:

http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=195658221

[font face=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][font size=5]Proverbs 17:28[/font]

[font size=3]Even fools who keep silent are considered wise;
when they close their lips, they are deemed intelligent.[/font][/font]

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
14. We’re a long way from this being a problem
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 02:12 PM
Feb 2012
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21328491.700-power-paradox-clean-might-not-be-green-forever.html


Over the past few thousand years, Earth was roughly in equilibrium and the climate changed little. Now levels of greenhouse gases are rising, and roughly 380 TW less heat is escaping. Result: the planet is warming.

The warming due to the 16 TW or so of waste heat produced by humans is tiny in comparison. However, if humanity manages to thrive despite the immense challenges we face, and keeps on using more and more power, waste heat will become a huge problem in the future. If the demand for power grew to 5000 TW, Chaisson has calculated, it would warm the planet by 3 °C.



OK, so, if we get to the point where we are generating 150 times as much waste heat as we are currently, then we could have a real problem.

caraher

(6,278 posts)
15. Right
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 10:04 PM
Feb 2012

This is mainly a couple-centuries-down-the-road concern. It's just another flavor of "limits to growth"

PamW

(1,825 posts)
20. I didn't say it was a problem!!
Tue Feb 7, 2012, 08:36 PM
Feb 2012

OK, so, if we get to the point where we are generating 150 times as much waste heat as we are currently, then we could have a real problem.
================

I didn't say it was a problem.

The only thing I said was that solar proponents go around saying that they don't thermally pollute like other power sources,
when they do! The solar proponents tend to use this as an argument for preferring solar. First, their claim isn't true; and
secondly, as you point out; it's not really a problem anyway

PamW

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
22. I’ve never seen/heard this claim made
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 02:12 PM
Feb 2012

But, maybe you’re dealing with different “solar proponents.”

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