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xchrom

(108,903 posts)
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 08:23 AM Nov 2013

experts say nuclear power needed to slow warming

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_CLIMATE_SCIENTISTS_NUCLEAR_POWER?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-11-03-06-44-13


***disclaimer: i am against nuclear power -- however this was in the news.
i am skeptical and remain against it.

PITTSBURGH (AP) -- Some of the world's top climate scientists say wind and solar energy won't be enough to head off extreme global warming, and they're asking environmentalists to support the development of safer nuclear power as one way to cut fossil fuel pollution.

Four scientists who have played a key role in alerting the public to the dangers of climate change sent letters Sunday to leading environmental groups and politicians around the world. The letter, an advance copy of which was given to The Associated Press, urges a crucial discussion on the role of nuclear power in fighting climate change.

Environmentalists agree that global warming is a threat to ecosystems and humans, but many oppose nuclear power and believe that new forms of renewable energy will be able to power the world within the next few decades.

That isn't realistic, the letter said.
12 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
experts say nuclear power needed to slow warming (Original Post) xchrom Nov 2013 OP
'Experts' have said so for decades. PDJane Nov 2013 #1
How about "leaks" from smokestacks that actually kill people? NNadir Nov 2013 #3
Wait until the results from Fukishima come back. PDJane Nov 2013 #4
100% WRONG!! PamW Nov 2013 #5
Bullshit. Almost every death from Fukushima will be the result of the burning of coal, gas, and... NNadir Nov 2013 #8
AMEN to that!! PamW Nov 2013 #9
nobody will give a shit phantom power Nov 2013 #11
Yeah I know. NNadir Nov 2013 #12
The four signers GeorgeGist Nov 2013 #2
I wonder how long it will take NickB79 Nov 2013 #10
I posted my thoughts in the GD thread... hunter Nov 2013 #6
Climate scientists to "environmentalists"; we NEED nuclear power PamW Nov 2013 #7

PDJane

(10,103 posts)
1. 'Experts' have said so for decades.
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 08:31 AM
Nov 2013

Until we solve the issue of leaks and water usage, however, it is simply not true.

It is also possible to use renewable forms of energy now; what we need is the will to do so.

NNadir

(33,475 posts)
3. How about "leaks" from smokestacks that actually kill people?
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 11:19 AM
Nov 2013

Air pollution kills about 4 million people per year, according to a paper in the scientific journal Lancet.

http://theenergycollective.com/nnadir/267356/world-health-organization-underestimating-annual-deaths-renewable-energy-much-two-mill

Do you have any level of concern for these people?

No?

Nuclear power doesn't even appear on the list in the Lancet paper as a significant contributor to loss of life.

Nuclear power is a mature technology that's been operating for 60 years and has the lowest external costs and the lowest loss of life per MWh for any form of energy known.

Other than being the best form of energy ever invented - invented by some of the finest minds ever to live on the planet - it's been a disaster.

PDJane

(10,103 posts)
4. Wait until the results from Fukishima come back.
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 02:01 PM
Nov 2013

And yes, I have concerns for those people who die from fossil fuels. Coal, for instance, is a dirty and murderous fuel. There is no such thing as 'clean coal.' There is no safe way to recover the stuff, and it is a killer of humans and habitat.

Nuclear energy is expensive; the plants were built to last for forty years and have reached the end of their operating life; most of them are dangerously outmoded and fragile. Those plants are not cheap. When you factor in the number of people who die from cancers and other hazards during mining and waste disposal, nuclear becomes prohibitively expensive. It is GENERALLY safe; however, when the rules are ignored, or human error is factored in, you get things like Fukishima, Mayak, Chernobyl or Three Mile Island. Moreover, the water needed for this, as much as for coal and gas and other forms, is prohibitive.

I'm also going to point out that using nuclear plants to produce steam to turn turbines is wasteful; if we had been working on other forms of power generation, we would be in a much better place. We haven't.

We need every drop of water we have. Climate change is going to make oceans rise, yes. It is not going to produce rainfall.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
5. 100% WRONG!!
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 03:07 PM
Nov 2013

PDJane states
Nuclear energy is expensive; the plants were built to last for forty years and have reached the end of their operating life; most of them are dangerously outmoded and fragile.


PDJane; you've been listening to the anti-nuke propaganda. First, nuclear power plants were NOT designed to last for 40 years any more than a bridge is designed to last for 40 years. The time 40 years is just the length of the original license after which the regulators re-examine the plant before allowing it to continue operating. You can think of it like the 6 year term of a driver's license. After you drive for 6 years; are you "washed up" as a driver. NO! The state just takes that time to re-examine your driving record, and can take you off the road if you don't measure up.

If you understood how water is used in a nuclear power plant; you'd understand that the water issue is a red herring. The water used IN the plant is recirculated, and doesn't get "used up". Nuclear power plants, like coal and gas use water as the mechanism to dump "waste heat" to the environment as is REQUIRED by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. They typically take water from a river, lake, or ocean and with the addition of the waste heat, either return the water to the place where they got it; or it goes up a cooling tower and will eventually become rain, just like Mother Nature does. Here's a diagram to show that INSIDE the plants, the water is RECIRCULATED:



The yellow loop which cools the reactor, is completely contained within the reactor containment building. The blue loop that goes through the turbine and is the working fluid of the Rankine steam cycle is also a closed loop that is recirculated. Only the loop with the open ends at right draws in water, heats it, and discharges it to the environment. The whole nuclear "uses up" water hype is a bunch of malarkey.

Additionally, there's not a large health effect even when you take mining / waste disposal into consideration. Nuclear fuel is MILLIONS of times more energy dense than chemical fuels; which means that for a given amount of energy, nuclear requires a MILLION-TH the amount of fuel.

Nuclear power and Rankine steam cycles are NOT wasteful. Unfortunately, you don't know about the Laws of Thermodynamics, particularly the 2nd Law; which puts LIMITS on what we can do. We've had practical steam power for OVER 2 CENTURIES and have been constantly working to improve it. However, the Laws of Physics tell us that there is a point which Mother Nature won't let us go beyond - she makes it PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. You might also want to look up the "Carnot Efficiency". Scientists have known about these limits for nearly 2 hundred years; but "environmentalists" still haven't discovered those limits.

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW

NNadir

(33,475 posts)
8. Bullshit. Almost every death from Fukushima will be the result of the burning of coal, gas, and...
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 07:13 PM
Nov 2013

...oil by people who hold science in contempt because they don't know any.

More people have died from the pollution resulting from running servers to issue bullshit about Fukushima than died from radiation.

According to the world respected climate scientist Jim Hansen, publishing in one of the world's most respected Environmental Scientific journals, nuclear energy saves:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es3051197

It follows that the 60 years of chanting dogma by anti-nukes who drag out the same horseshit, year after year, decade after decade while the planetary atmosphere collapses costs lives.

There is not one anti-nuke on this planet who has the faintest clue how nuclear power plants work, and thus they address the subject they know nothing about through the prism of fear and ignorance.

Three hundred and eighty people will die in the next hour from air pollution. Most of those lives could have been saved were it not for anti-nuke fear and ignorance.

Have a nice evening.

phantom power

(25,966 posts)
11. nobody will give a shit
Mon Nov 4, 2013, 12:47 AM
Nov 2013

Everybody is blaming the death of the Pacific Ocean on Fukushima, when in fact the oceans are dying from CO2 acidification, plastic trash, sewage, blown-out oil wells and overfishing.

Meanwhile Germany and Japan are shutting their nukes and everybody is declaring victory even as we jack up the world's fossil fuel pollution.

Winning!

NNadir

(33,475 posts)
12. Yeah I know.
Wed Nov 6, 2013, 04:20 PM
Nov 2013

I missed your remark.

2013 will be either the worst year ever at Mauna Loa, or it will displace 2012 as the second worst.

Victory!!!

GeorgeGist

(25,311 posts)
2. The four signers
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 09:09 AM
Nov 2013
The letter signers are James Hansen, a former top NASA scientist; Ken Caldeira, of the Carnegie Institution; Kerry Emanuel, of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology; and Tom Wigley, of the University of Adelaide in Australia.

NickB79

(19,224 posts)
10. I wonder how long it will take
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 11:52 PM
Nov 2013

Before someone calls James Hansen a coal/nuke shill? Under the bus with you!

hunter

(38,303 posts)
6. I posted my thoughts in the GD thread...
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 03:19 PM
Nov 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023970656

I think nuclear power is the only way we can maintain our current civilization.

But I don't want to maintain our current civilization. I want something better. Our "consumer" culture is harmful to the human spirit, and it is harmful to our environment.

Either way, nuclear or not, fossil fuels have to be outlawed. But I doubt they will be and therefore this civilization will collapse in a very ugly manner.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
7. Climate scientists to "environmentalists"; we NEED nuclear power
Sun Nov 3, 2013, 04:02 PM
Nov 2013

The top climate scientists have released an open letter to "environmentalists" and world leaders:

From the Washington Post:

Top climate scientists ask environmentalists to support nuclear power in climate battle

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/energy-environment/top-climate-scientists-ask-environmentalists-to-support-nuclear-power-in-climate-battle/2013/11/03/79a345b0-4473-11e3-95a9-3f15b5618ba8_story.html

From the UK Guardian:

Top US climate scientists support development of safe nuclear power

Open letter to environmentalists and world leaders says wind and solar are not enough to diminish carbon emissions

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/nov/03/climate-scientists-support-nuclear-power

From NPR:

Experts Say Nuclear Power Needed to Slow Warming

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=242730847

For years, the "environmentalists" have been telling everyone that we should be listening to the scientists, and they've been denigrating people like the "climate deniers" for not listening to the scientists. They've been telling us that those that don't listen to the climate scientists are STUPID.

We'll see now if those "environmentalists" have the wisdom and self-integrity to follow their own advice.

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW


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