Environment & Energy
Related: About this forumHydroelectric power isn't clean or renewable
In our creation story, the Winnemem Wintu bubbled out of our sacred spring on Mt. Shasta, and we're a water people who tend to view water differently.
The water in our rivers is the blood running through the world's veins, and water can hold goodness just like the human heart can. We believe if we sing to water and pray to water that will make it healthier and cleaner.
When water is churned through a hydro-project's turbines or grows stale in a reservoir, it hurts the water's spirit and makes it "mad water." How is that water going to be good to drink?
But you don't have to be Winnemem to understand that hydropower and dams are anything but clean and renewable and that dams actually contribute to climate change.
http://www.redding.com/news/2012/feb/06/caleen-sisk-hydroelectic-power-isnt-clean-or/
(Caleen Sisk is chief of the Winnemem Wintu tribe.)
Muskypundit
(717 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)There are downsides to hydro projects, they do change the ecology of the region and may cause serious damage to species dependent on the former river flow, but "mad water" is just woo-woo nonsense. We are an energy intensive civilization. We have to make smart choices about how we produce all the energy we consume, and discarding hydro means replacing it with something else, and that something else is generally coal. Those choices need to be made based on rational science not on mystical magical thinking.
Sinistrous
(4,249 posts)This article is patently the offspring of the mating of a crocodile and an abalone.
wtmusic
(39,166 posts)"Mad water" is a Native American's explanation of a very real phenomenon which results in erosion and sliced-and-diced fish.
Mocking it doesn't really move anyone towards what is essentially a shared goal.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)"it hurts the water's spirit and makes it "mad water."" - I'm sorry but that is woo-woo. The water from reservoirs is bad to drink? Really?
As I said, there are real issues with hydro power. Conflating that with religious bullshit is not helpful.
And yes of course if civilization abandons its high energy consumption basis we would no longer need to produce a lot of energy. That would require a die-off of around 2/3 of our current population to bring us back to what can be sustained with a pre-industrial revolution economy. Who's families would you like to nominate for an exit from the gene-pool? Yours?
wtmusic
(39,166 posts)I suppose that assumption does make the problem easier to understand.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Or perhaps you think there is no connection between high energy consumption and global population?
wtmusic
(39,166 posts)People can get by with less energy individually, especially in the US. My point was that possibly this person doesn't require much energy, and would rather have his ancestors' remains unswallowed by some retention basin than air conditioning and a big-screen TV.
Personally I don't see how we will be able to avoid massive increases in energy usage, whether "necessary" or not. I don't agree with some around here that those increases have to result in environmental armageddon.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)And that is almost beside the point. "we" are only 300 something million units. The other high energy consumers in Europe and Japan might bring the total to around one billion. There are 6 billion people who would very much like to share our high energy lifestyles and are proceeding to do just that, and that number is going toward 8 billion.
We cannot afford to not use hydro wind solar geo and I'll say it, nuclear, as appropriate, as much as possible, and as an ever increasing proportion of our total energy production. We need to be investing in real science to create a sustainable future that will provide everyone with a life of comfort, not just the lucky few. Of course we aren't really doing that, at least not with the priority and funding that would produce results.
It isn't that the future has to be an ecological Armageddon, it's that we don't appear to be doing much to avoid it, and that is going to condemn a whole lot of people to a whole lot of misery.
Mystical nonsense, no matter how well intentioned, is not helpful.
wtmusic
(39,166 posts)except the part about peeing on cultures which are different from yours, whether they're primitive or not. When you want to build that solar or nuclear plant on Native American land do you think it's going to help to have them fighting you?
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)One reason people cooperate in self-restraint is if they feel deeply that it's essential. Intellectual knowledge doesn't have the same impact on behaviour. War brings out these sorts of deep feelings all the time - protecting one's people and culture from annihilation by evil is a very strong motivator for self-restraint in favor of the greater good.
However, most people don't perceive ecological issues as a war - after all, the enemy would be us, and who wants that fight? As a result the strong feelings associated with war aren't activated. However, unless we somehow generate strong feelings about this, many of us believe that life on this planet will lose, and lose big.
So what are some other sources of strong feelings, and how could they be harnessed in this effort? Feeling that something is sacred produces those feelings in many people, and makes them willing to forgo their own interests in order to protect the thing they feel is sacred. For example, the philosophy of Deep Ecology has this shift in perspective as one of its intentions.
I'm willing to entertain any world-view that produces strong feelings of ecological protection in many people. A shift towards viewing all life as sacred is the best candidate I've found so far. I understand that people who have been struggling against religious interference for their whole lives many not like this approach. If that is the case I challenge them to come up with other ways to produce such deep feelings in large numbers of people. We need them all, if life as a whole is to have a chance in the face of destructive human attitudes and technological capabilities.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)When we let religiousity into the decision making process we lose the ability to make decisions based on reality.
Are you really willing to entertain "any world-view that produces strong feelings of ecological protection in many people"? Any? No matter what other insane baggage it drags along?
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 7, 2012, 07:42 PM - Edit history (1)
Should we accept aboriginal beliefs that protect the environment and have no impact on your life? Why on Earth not?
The same goes for Deep Ecology. Why on Earth not?
What we're doing to the planet today is based on clear-headed, rational thinking, and it's still insane.
We face two core problems: our assumptions about our place in the web of life on this planet are dysfunctional, and our motivation to change our behaviour is almost non-existent.
Reason alone will not address either of those problems. As long as people don't perceive an immediate existential threat, as long as the problems can be argued intellectually off into the future, people opt for living as they always have.
Cortically-derived reason does not carry the same sense of urgency as the emotions mediated by our limbic system. If we want to motivate urgent, immediate action then our emotions need to be engaged. thinking doesn't do that, feeling does.
Edited to add: Advertisers have known this little factoid for decades, and politicians have known it for centuries.
One of the remarkable qualities of Deep Ecology is that it attacks both of those pathways simultaneously. It changes our cultural narrative by elevating other life to a level closer to Man; it promotes a transfer of value from the human to the non-human; it promotes a sense of human moral responsibility; and in doing all that it makes our impact on other life a matter of emotional urgency.
Propose your own solutions - if you think rational thought will help, by all means promote it. But try not to let your emotions get in the way of your rational thought and try to block others' efforts to do the same. We don't know what will work at this point, so we need to try a bit of everything. Reason is a useful tool, but it might not end up being the key tool in this struggle to change human behaviour.
No human baggage is as odious as the extinction of defenseless species, the destruction of their means of subsistence, the razing and poisoning of their homes. And that's a clear-headed, rational fact!
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)I thought it was an interesting perspective.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)there are real and serious issues with hydro, as there are with every energy source we know of that is capable of contributing to our energy needs in any meaningful way. There is enough total bullshit coming from the other side. We need to be clear and rational and fact based.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)They're proposing to enlarge Shasta Dam, and it will flood out Winnemem Wintu sacred areas.
Since they're not a federally recognized tribe, they don't have a lot of recourse.
Dead_Parrot
(14,478 posts)Kolesar
(31,182 posts)Or old timey gospel music
Or from last year's album by the Decemberists: Down By The Water
Dead_Parrot
(14,478 posts)"What's so unpleasant about being drunk?"
"Ask a glass of water"
- DNA, Hitchhikers's Guide.
Hydropower is renewable and clean (in terms of CO2 and ashes). But yes, it is not particularly environmentally friendly, there are many environmental downsides to dams.
But most importantly, hydropower potential is already mostly utilised. There is a limited number of sites suitable for a dam, and most of them are already dammed.
Thus hydropower cannot help us phase out (substitute) fossil energy more than it already does.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)It makes comparisons a bit tedious.