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XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 04:47 AM Feb 2012

Hydroelectric power isn't clean or renewable

In our creation story, the Winnemem Wintu bubbled out of our sacred spring on Mt. Shasta, and we're a water people who tend to view water differently.

The water in our rivers is the blood running through the world's veins, and water can hold goodness just like the human heart can. We believe if we sing to water and pray to water that will make it healthier and cleaner.

When water is churned through a hydro-project's turbines or grows stale in a reservoir, it hurts the water's spirit and makes it "mad water." How is that water going to be good to drink?

But you don't have to be Winnemem to understand that hydropower and dams are anything but clean and renewable and that dams actually contribute to climate change.

http://www.redding.com/news/2012/feb/06/caleen-sisk-hydroelectic-power-isnt-clean-or/

(Caleen Sisk is chief of the Winnemem Wintu tribe.)

22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Hydroelectric power isn't clean or renewable (Original Post) XemaSab Feb 2012 OP
Its cleaner then coal, and the irrigation dams provide feed the whole world. Muskypundit Feb 2012 #1
Hurts the water's spirit? Warren Stupidity Feb 2012 #2
+1 for the "woo-woo" designation. Sinistrous Feb 2012 #3
Dismiss much? Maybe the author doesn't share your energy intensive lifestyle. wtmusic Feb 2012 #4
yes i am dismissing the op as nonsense. Warren Stupidity Feb 2012 #5
I wasn't aware it was necessary to die to use less energy. wtmusic Feb 2012 #6
How do you propose to sustain nearly 7B people in a low energy consumption economy? Warren Stupidity Feb 2012 #7
Depends on whether you're looking at it on a per-capita basis wtmusic Feb 2012 #12
It is highly unlikely we are going to get by with substantially lower per capita usage. Warren Stupidity Feb 2012 #13
I'll agree with all of that wtmusic Feb 2012 #16
"Mystical nonsense" may be essential in the struggle to protect life. GliderGuider Feb 2012 #18
No really I think clear headed rational thinking is essential. Warren Stupidity Feb 2012 #19
Beliefs and actions, reason and emotions GliderGuider Feb 2012 #20
Did you read the whole thing? XemaSab Feb 2012 #8
no I couldnt get past angry water spirits Warren Stupidity Feb 2012 #9
One of the things that might illuminate where this is coming from XemaSab Feb 2012 #14
Sucks to be them, then... nt Dead_Parrot Feb 2012 #15
Maybe it's metaphorical like a Talking Heads song Kolesar Feb 2012 #10
Mad water: It's unpleasantly like being drunk. Dead_Parrot Feb 2012 #11
... Maslo55 Feb 2012 #17
you get a heart for a reasoned response Warren Stupidity Feb 2012 #21
And in California, large projects > 30MW are not considered "renewable" in the energy mix. NYC_SKP Feb 2012 #22
 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
2. Hurts the water's spirit?
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 08:26 AM
Feb 2012

There are downsides to hydro projects, they do change the ecology of the region and may cause serious damage to species dependent on the former river flow, but "mad water" is just woo-woo nonsense. We are an energy intensive civilization. We have to make smart choices about how we produce all the energy we consume, and discarding hydro means replacing it with something else, and that something else is generally coal. Those choices need to be made based on rational science not on mystical magical thinking.

Sinistrous

(4,249 posts)
3. +1 for the "woo-woo" designation.
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 10:50 AM
Feb 2012

This article is patently the offspring of the mating of a crocodile and an abalone.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
4. Dismiss much? Maybe the author doesn't share your energy intensive lifestyle.
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 11:26 AM
Feb 2012

"Mad water" is a Native American's explanation of a very real phenomenon which results in erosion and sliced-and-diced fish.

Mocking it doesn't really move anyone towards what is essentially a shared goal.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
5. yes i am dismissing the op as nonsense.
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 12:00 PM
Feb 2012

"it hurts the water's spirit and makes it "mad water."" - I'm sorry but that is woo-woo. The water from reservoirs is bad to drink? Really?

As I said, there are real issues with hydro power. Conflating that with religious bullshit is not helpful.

And yes of course if civilization abandons its high energy consumption basis we would no longer need to produce a lot of energy. That would require a die-off of around 2/3 of our current population to bring us back to what can be sustained with a pre-industrial revolution economy. Who's families would you like to nominate for an exit from the gene-pool? Yours?

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
6. I wasn't aware it was necessary to die to use less energy.
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 12:07 PM
Feb 2012

I suppose that assumption does make the problem easier to understand.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
7. How do you propose to sustain nearly 7B people in a low energy consumption economy?
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 12:49 PM
Feb 2012

Or perhaps you think there is no connection between high energy consumption and global population?

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
12. Depends on whether you're looking at it on a per-capita basis
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 03:45 PM
Feb 2012

People can get by with less energy individually, especially in the US. My point was that possibly this person doesn't require much energy, and would rather have his ancestors' remains unswallowed by some retention basin than air conditioning and a big-screen TV.

Personally I don't see how we will be able to avoid massive increases in energy usage, whether "necessary" or not. I don't agree with some around here that those increases have to result in environmental armageddon.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
13. It is highly unlikely we are going to get by with substantially lower per capita usage.
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 09:37 PM
Feb 2012

And that is almost beside the point. "we" are only 300 something million units. The other high energy consumers in Europe and Japan might bring the total to around one billion. There are 6 billion people who would very much like to share our high energy lifestyles and are proceeding to do just that, and that number is going toward 8 billion.

We cannot afford to not use hydro wind solar geo and I'll say it, nuclear, as appropriate, as much as possible, and as an ever increasing proportion of our total energy production. We need to be investing in real science to create a sustainable future that will provide everyone with a life of comfort, not just the lucky few. Of course we aren't really doing that, at least not with the priority and funding that would produce results.

It isn't that the future has to be an ecological Armageddon, it's that we don't appear to be doing much to avoid it, and that is going to condemn a whole lot of people to a whole lot of misery.

Mystical nonsense, no matter how well intentioned, is not helpful.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
16. I'll agree with all of that
Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:39 AM
Feb 2012

except the part about peeing on cultures which are different from yours, whether they're primitive or not. When you want to build that solar or nuclear plant on Native American land do you think it's going to help to have them fighting you?

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
18. "Mystical nonsense" may be essential in the struggle to protect life.
Tue Feb 7, 2012, 09:22 AM
Feb 2012

One reason people cooperate in self-restraint is if they feel deeply that it's essential. Intellectual knowledge doesn't have the same impact on behaviour. War brings out these sorts of deep feelings all the time - protecting one's people and culture from annihilation by evil is a very strong motivator for self-restraint in favor of the greater good.

However, most people don't perceive ecological issues as a war - after all, the enemy would be us, and who wants that fight? As a result the strong feelings associated with war aren't activated. However, unless we somehow generate strong feelings about this, many of us believe that life on this planet will lose, and lose big.

So what are some other sources of strong feelings, and how could they be harnessed in this effort? Feeling that something is sacred produces those feelings in many people, and makes them willing to forgo their own interests in order to protect the thing they feel is sacred. For example, the philosophy of Deep Ecology has this shift in perspective as one of its intentions.

I'm willing to entertain any world-view that produces strong feelings of ecological protection in many people. A shift towards viewing all life as sacred is the best candidate I've found so far. I understand that people who have been struggling against religious interference for their whole lives many not like this approach. If that is the case I challenge them to come up with other ways to produce such deep feelings in large numbers of people. We need them all, if life as a whole is to have a chance in the face of destructive human attitudes and technological capabilities.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
19. No really I think clear headed rational thinking is essential.
Tue Feb 7, 2012, 10:17 AM
Feb 2012

When we let religiousity into the decision making process we lose the ability to make decisions based on reality.

Are you really willing to entertain "any world-view that produces strong feelings of ecological protection in many people"? Any? No matter what other insane baggage it drags along?

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
20. Beliefs and actions, reason and emotions
Tue Feb 7, 2012, 01:01 PM
Feb 2012

Last edited Tue Feb 7, 2012, 07:42 PM - Edit history (1)

Should we accept aboriginal beliefs that protect the environment and have no impact on your life? Why on Earth not?
The same goes for Deep Ecology. Why on Earth not?

What we're doing to the planet today is based on clear-headed, rational thinking, and it's still insane.

We face two core problems: our assumptions about our place in the web of life on this planet are dysfunctional, and our motivation to change our behaviour is almost non-existent.

Reason alone will not address either of those problems. As long as people don't perceive an immediate existential threat, as long as the problems can be argued intellectually off into the future, people opt for living as they always have.

Cortically-derived reason does not carry the same sense of urgency as the emotions mediated by our limbic system. If we want to motivate urgent, immediate action then our emotions need to be engaged. thinking doesn't do that, feeling does.

Edited to add: Advertisers have known this little factoid for decades, and politicians have known it for centuries.

One of the remarkable qualities of Deep Ecology is that it attacks both of those pathways simultaneously. It changes our cultural narrative by elevating other life to a level closer to Man; it promotes a transfer of value from the human to the non-human; it promotes a sense of human moral responsibility; and in doing all that it makes our impact on other life a matter of emotional urgency.

Propose your own solutions - if you think rational thought will help, by all means promote it. But try not to let your emotions get in the way of your rational thought and try to block others' efforts to do the same. We don't know what will work at this point, so we need to try a bit of everything. Reason is a useful tool, but it might not end up being the key tool in this struggle to change human behaviour.

No human baggage is as odious as the extinction of defenseless species, the destruction of their means of subsistence, the razing and poisoning of their homes. And that's a clear-headed, rational fact!

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
9. no I couldnt get past angry water spirits
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 02:07 PM
Feb 2012

there are real and serious issues with hydro, as there are with every energy source we know of that is capable of contributing to our energy needs in any meaningful way. There is enough total bullshit coming from the other side. We need to be clear and rational and fact based.

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
14. One of the things that might illuminate where this is coming from
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 10:09 PM
Feb 2012

They're proposing to enlarge Shasta Dam, and it will flood out Winnemem Wintu sacred areas.

Since they're not a federally recognized tribe, they don't have a lot of recourse.

Kolesar

(31,182 posts)
10. Maybe it's metaphorical like a Talking Heads song
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 02:07 PM
Feb 2012

Or old timey gospel music
Or from last year's album by the Decemberists: Down By The Water

Dead_Parrot

(14,478 posts)
11. Mad water: It's unpleasantly like being drunk.
Mon Feb 6, 2012, 03:32 PM
Feb 2012

"What's so unpleasant about being drunk?"
"Ask a glass of water"

- DNA, Hitchhikers's Guide.

Maslo55

(61 posts)
17. ...
Tue Feb 7, 2012, 06:16 AM
Feb 2012

Hydropower is renewable and clean (in terms of CO2 and ashes). But yes, it is not particularly environmentally friendly, there are many environmental downsides to dams.

But most importantly, hydropower potential is already mostly utilised. There is a limited number of sites suitable for a dam, and most of them are already dammed.

Thus hydropower cannot help us phase out (substitute) fossil energy more than it already does.

 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
22. And in California, large projects > 30MW are not considered "renewable" in the energy mix.
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 10:14 PM
Feb 2012

It makes comparisons a bit tedious.

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