Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 03:57 PM Nov 2013

The Answer to Climate Change Is Renewable Energy, Not Nuclear Power

The Answer to Climate Change Is Renewable Energy, Not Nuclear Power
Posted: 11/25/2013 9:44 am
Steven Cohen
Executive Director, Columbia University's Earth Institute


When climate scientists and some energy policy analysts take a "tough-minded" look at the numbers, many come to the conclusion that the only technology now available to replace fossil fuels is nuclear power. Eduardo Porter of the New York Times made that argument last week when he wrote:
...nuclear power remains the cheapest and most readily scalable of the alternative energy sources.


As I indicated this past April, I disagree. There are a number of reasons that nuclear power is a bad solution to the climate crisis. The first is that the technology is really not available. Nuclear power plants are capital-intensive, technologically complex to manage, and difficult, if not impossible, to site. These are not minor issues. Investors would rather put their money elsewhere and communities intensely resist siting a plant in their backyard.

This means that even though we know how to generate electricity this way, and we have many decades of experience doing it, in the U.S. these plants will never be built in sufficient quantity to reduce global warming. In other parts of the world, we might pay attention to the lessons we should be learning in Iran. There is a thin line between the technology of nuclear power generation and the technology of nuclear bomb development. While it's too late to put the nuclear genie back in the bottle, let's stop pretending that human political systems or organizational processes can manage the risks of this technology.

There are other issues associated with current nuclear technologies that render them problematic as well. The toxicity of its fuel and waste, for example, should not be ignored. Catastrophic accidents may be rare, but when they occur, their impact is intense and long-lasting. While a well-managed plant poses little real danger, it is difficult to judge the danger posed by a poorly managed one. One also cannot dismiss the possibility of sabotage. Terrorists taking over a plant and threatening to allow an accident to occur could hold a city hostage.

Electric utilities, like water and sewage utilities, are natural monopolies that require government regulation...


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-cohen/the-answer-to-climate-cha_b_4337435.html
46 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Answer to Climate Change Is Renewable Energy, Not Nuclear Power (Original Post) kristopher Nov 2013 OP
SCIENCE says you are WRONG!!! PamW Nov 2013 #1
Please provide links to your statistics. Common sense says that you are wrong. rhett o rick Nov 2013 #5
BALONEY!!! PamW Nov 2013 #7
Do you trust the World Nuclear Association on design life? caraher Nov 2013 #8
WRONG!!! PamW Nov 2013 #11
It isn't ambiguous: "...designed for 30 or 40-year operating lives" kristopher Nov 2013 #32
Vessel lifetime PamW Nov 2013 #33
Your "WRONG" was wrong kristopher Nov 2013 #34
NOT in the SLIGHTEST!!! PamW Dec 2013 #42
Right, you aren't slightly wrong you are completely and demonstrably wrong. kristopher Dec 2013 #43
Proof by assertion again..???? PamW Dec 2013 #44
I like your third person use of "the progressives" caraher Dec 2013 #46
Wow! I was hoping to have a nice discussion but you went nuclear. rhett o rick Nov 2013 #15
Well, it's true.. PamW Nov 2013 #21
See http://www.democraticunderground.com/112756356 kristopher Nov 2013 #9
SCIENCE says that? Really? ljm2002 Nov 2013 #10
BALONEY!!! PamW Nov 2013 #12
Oh dear... ljm2002 Nov 2013 #13
Another "environmentalist" that doesn't understand the NAS PamW Nov 2013 #14
I can't help it... ljm2002 Nov 2013 #17
The above DELUSIONS are all in your head... PamW Nov 2013 #18
Nuclear Power is the right thing to do. PamW Nov 2013 #28
Nuclear and coal with CCS are poor choices to address climate change kristopher Nov 2013 #36
YAWN!!! Jacobsen again; and not even fresh; old 2009 "vintage"... PamW Dec 2013 #45
Don't buy the false claim about the NAS kristopher Nov 2013 #16
Kristopher is so familiar with the study... PamW Nov 2013 #19
OK, you redeemed yourself a bit with this: GliderGuider Nov 2013 #20
Only the CENSORED version from kristopher PamW Nov 2013 #22
DO I have it right, IIRC FogerRox Nov 2013 #23
It has to do with the stability of the grid PamW Nov 2013 #25
What do the National Academies of Science and Engineering say about our energy future? kristopher Nov 2013 #30
We can alway count on kristopher... PamW Nov 2013 #31
LOGIC says you are wrong (and so are the nuclear evangelists) GliderGuider Nov 2013 #2
That should be "Invalid logic" in your title kristopher Nov 2013 #3
I don't argue with evangelists any more. I just point out that there is no God... GliderGuider Nov 2013 #4
and that our species can't even come close to substituting for Him MisterP Nov 2013 #29
No Nukes colsohlibgal Nov 2013 #6
Yeah. Apparently. That's why we've had cheering for this rich boy's fantasy for 60 years... NNadir Nov 2013 #24
Well, many countries are pressing ahead with alternative energy sources claras Nov 2013 #26
China isn't a great example FBaggins Nov 2013 #27
The Answer to Climate Change Is Neither Renewable Energy, Nor Nuclear Power GliderGuider Nov 2013 #35
Also over the past decade renewables began to achieve grid parity kristopher Nov 2013 #37
The picture isn't much better when "energy" is restricted to electricity GliderGuider Nov 2013 #38
Judging by that off point answer you don't seem to know what primary energy is kristopher Nov 2013 #39
That's why the last one wasn't in terms of primary energy, but electricity. GliderGuider Nov 2013 #40
And you still ignore the main point raised against your OP kristopher Nov 2013 #41

PamW

(1,825 posts)
1. SCIENCE says you are WRONG!!!
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 04:31 PM
Nov 2013

The scientific community is in general 70% in support of nuclear, with 98% of physicists and engineers.

The recent letter by the climate scientists is just the latest in the high level of support for nuclear power by scientists.

Once again kristopher is "whistling past the graveyard" with the specious claim that nuclear power is financially unsustainable.

The problem is WHOSE FAULT IS THAT?

The fault is due to the anti-nukes. Numerous studies have shown that.

The early nuclear power plants built in the late '60s and early '70s before the anti-nukes "discovered" nuclear power didn't cost what they do now.

Without the uncertainty, the lawsuits, the protests.... to drive up the costs; nuclear power plants can be built at reasonable cost.

My classic example is a nuclear power plant that is still operating; so it meets ALL the safety standards. It was built in the late '60s and early '70s without the problems caused by the anti-nukes. That plant is Palisades in Michigan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palisades_Nuclear_Generating_Station

Note how much it cost to build Palisades in the early '70s: $149 Million

Inflate that price to todays dollars; and you don't get anywhere near the billions that these plant now cost.

It's really pretty DISGUSTING.

The anti-nukes CAUSE the financial problems; then they COMPLAIN about them.

Either they should quit contributing to the problem; or if they don't; then they shouldn't complain.

Of course, I don't expect that much from their ilk.

PamW

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
5. Please provide links to your statistics. Common sense says that you are wrong.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 05:34 PM
Nov 2013

The cost of nuclear plants is out of sight, regardless of whose fault.

The cost of decommissioning and taking care of all the nuclear plant waste is extremely high. A cost that many power companies are postponing by continually "extending" the design life well beyond what engineers have advised. Most likely the taxpayers will foot the entire bill. This cost has not been factored into the cost of energy from a nuclear plant.

The risk is so high that no insurance company will insure a nuclear power plant. The taxpayers assume the risk.

Today there is a huge financial debt being "kicked down the road" with tens of thousands of spent fuel being temporarily stored across this country waiting for a decision as to what to do with it permanently. The cost of this disposal hasnt been yet factored into the cost of energy from a nuclear plant.

Private corporations are extending the life of existing power plants well beyond their design life to squeeze every bit of profit they can. But the risk of an accident increases greatly. Who do you trust? The corporations?

The power plants themselves and the stockpiles of highly radioactive spent fuels may be targets for terrorists that could reek havoc.

Cooling nuclear plants directly effects the change of our climate.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
7. BALONEY!!!
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:01 PM
Nov 2013

rhett,

You can't trust your "common sense" when you've OD on anti-nuke propaganda.

WRONG about design life. The 40 years was NEVER the design life but only the first license term.
Decommissioning costs are about $300 to $400 million which the plant EARNS during its life and is set aside in escrow:

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/decommissioning.html

You fell for the anti-nuke LIE about no insurance companies willing to insure. They are REQUIRED to have commercial insurance
like the type available from American Nuclear Insurers, as an example:

American Nuclear Insurers

http://www.amnucins.com/

American Nuclear Insurers (ANI) is a joint underwriting association created by some of the largest insurance companies in the United States. Our purpose is to pool the financial assets pledged by our member companies to provide the significant amount of property and liability insurance required for nuclear power plants and related facilities throughout the world.

WRONG about disposal costs.
The US Government / NRC taxes the nuclear utilities to pay for spent fuel disposal; called the "Nuclear Waste Fund":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Waste_Policy_Act

The Act established a Nuclear Waste Fund composed of fees levied against electric utilities to pay for the costs of constructing and operating a permanent repository, and set the fee at one mill per kilowatt-hour of nuclear electricity generated. Utilities were charged a one-time fee for storage of spent fuel created before enactment of the law.

I don't have to trust in either government nor corporations. I trust the SCIENTISTS who say you are WRONG.

WRONG about the cooling too. The waste heat from Rankine steam cycle plants is TRIVIAL; Climate change is caused by SOLAR radiation trapped by CO2 which nuclear plants do NOT emit.

Common sense??? HAH!!!

You just proved that you can only PARROT the LIES of the anti-nukes.

Your knowledge of science being SO BAD that you didn't realize that you were being lied to.

As as scholar; I would hang my head in shame if I were every caught parroting propaganda that I accepted without checking the validity of same. That's "poor form" for a scholar.

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW

caraher

(6,278 posts)
8. Do you trust the World Nuclear Association on design life?
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:25 PM
Nov 2013

Clearly anti-nuke propagandists have hacked the World Nuclear Organization's web site, which agrees with rhett's statement that the design life of most reactors is 40 years:

Lifetime of nuclear reactors

Most of today's nuclear plants which (sic) were originally designed for 30 or 40-year operating lives. However, with major investments in systems, structures and components lives can be extended, and in several countries there are active programs to extend operating lives. In the USA most of the more than one hundred reactors are expected to be granted licence extensions from 40 to 60 years. This justifies significant capital expenditure in upgrading systems and components, including building in extra performance margins.


It's one thing to argue that reactors can be safely upgraded; it's another to create out of thin air a distinction between design lifetime and license term that not even a leading organization of nuclear professionals chooses to make.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
11. WRONG!!!
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:48 PM
Nov 2013

caraher,

The question as to design life centers on the lifetime of the reactor vessel.

There's NO "wear" on a reactor vessel; so what would limit its life.

The answer is neutron embrittlement. When reactors were first designed, and we had very little data, this was an open question.

Some "hypothesized" that the lifetime could be as little as 40 years.

However, it has been apparent for decades that those original estimates were in error; and reactor vessel can last to be 100 years or more.

The rest of the equipment in the plant like steam generators can be REPLACED.

So nuclear power plants are kind of like old World War II airplanes; as long as they are maintained well, they can last.

The reactors don't need "upgrading"; they just aren't getting embrittled as fast as some had estimated.

That's why MANY of our nuclear power plants are on their second term of license. They just have to show the NRC the measurements of neutron flux / embrittlement of the reactor vessel; and the NRC gives another license term if the vessel meets the proper standard, which they ALL have.

PamW

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
32. It isn't ambiguous: "...designed for 30 or 40-year operating lives"
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 03:30 PM
Nov 2013
Lifetime of nuclear reactors

Most of today's nuclear plants which (sic) were originally designed for 30 or 40-year operating lives. However, with major investments in systems, structures and components lives can be extended, and in several countries there are active programs to extend operating lives. In the USA most of the more than one hundred reactors are expected to be granted licence extensions from 40 to 60 years. This justifies significant capital expenditure in upgrading systems and components, including building in extra performance margins.


http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nuclear-Fuel-Cycle/Power-Reactors/Nuclear-Power-Reactors/

World Nuclear Association
Our Mission

The World Nuclear Association is the international organization that promotes nuclear energy and supports the many companies that comprise the global nuclear industry.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/WNA/About-the-WNA/Our-Mission/

PamW

(1,825 posts)
33. Vessel lifetime
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 04:11 PM
Nov 2013

kristopher,

What determines the lifetime of a reactor? The lifetime is determined by the life of the reactor vessel. ALL the other parts of the reactor are removable / replaceable. For example, if there is a problem, the control rod drives can be replaced or repair. The only thing that can't be replaced readily is the vessel, itself.

Do you think a reactor vessel "wears"? There's no moving parts. It's just a big tank.

Do you have any air tanks or water tanks in your house? How about saucepans and dutch ovens for boiling water.

How long do you think they last? Do they only last 40 years? What's the "wear" mechanism that wears them out?

With a nuclear reactor vessel; like the saucepans; there ISN'T any; except one; neutron embrittlement.

The vessel is exposed to fast neutrons that can knock atoms from their proper place in the crystal lattice. Because a misplaced atom can impede elastic strain as a metal is subjected to stress; the metal becomes embrittled.

In the early days of nuclear power, it was HYPOTHESIZED that such embrittlement might lead to a limited lifetime of the reactor vessel. However, this has been a very active area of material research.

University researchers have been irradiating reactor metal in university research reactors for years to determine the degree to which neutrons induce embrittlement. The answer is that this effect is a LOT LESS SEVERE than originally expected.

In any case; embrittlement can be "treated". The effects of embrittlement are reversible by annealing, which means heating the material so that atoms have the energy to return to their proper places in the crystal lattice.

Neutron embrittlement is something that is monitored by the NRC when a reactor comes up for license renewal. If the operator can show that the amount of embrittlement measured on the vessel is well below limits, and that the original 40 years of operation didn't approach the limit; then projecting forward another 20 years, the limits will also not be reached; then the reactor can be re-licensed. If it would exceed the limits; then it would need to be annealed. NONE of the reactors that the NRC has re-licensed have needed to be annealed.

It was amusing to see an advertisement for the Nuclear Energy Institute come up next to kristopher's original post.

PamW

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
34. Your "WRONG" was wrong
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 04:17 PM
Nov 2013

You wrote, "WRONG about design life. The 40 years was NEVER the design life but only the first license term".

The World Nuclear Association says, unambiguously, that you are not correct.

That is the end of that.

Lifetime of nuclear reactors

Most of today's nuclear plants which (sic) were originally designed for 30 or 40-year operating lives. However, with major investments in systems, structures and components lives can be extended, and in several countries there are active programs to extend operating lives. In the USA most of the more than one hundred reactors are expected to be granted licence extensions from 40 to 60 years. This justifies significant capital expenditure in upgrading systems and components, including building in extra performance margins.


http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nuclear-Fuel-Cycle/Power-Reactors/Nuclear-Power-Reactors/

World Nuclear Association
Our Mission

The World Nuclear Association is the international organization that promotes nuclear energy and supports the many companies that comprise the global nuclear industry.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/WNA/About-the-WNA/Our-Mission/

PamW

(1,825 posts)
42. NOT in the SLIGHTEST!!!
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 05:34 PM
Dec 2013

kristopher,

When are you going to learn that things like "design lifetimes" are set by SCIENTISTS and ENGINEERS.

The World Nuclear Association is the PR organization; the "cheerleaders".

Who is it that determines how often the oil needs to be changed on your car? It's the design of the car and how it affects
the oil that determines how long one can go before the oil needs to be replaced.

Who decides what the design of the car it, and hence the longevity of the oil?

It's the ENGINEERS that designed the car.

You're telling me that the lifetime of the oil specified by the ENGINEERS that designed the car
is to be ignored in favor of the people on Madison Avenue in New York who wrote the commercial.

It would really behoove you to learn at least a LITTLE about science and engineering.

PamW

PamW

(1,825 posts)
44. Proof by assertion again..????
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 07:08 PM
Dec 2013

No proof, no data, no references, no citations....

Just vapid statements which are expected to be accepted without critical thinking....

Boy, the progressives have sure gone downhill from their heyday a few decades ago...

PamW

caraher

(6,278 posts)
46. I like your third person use of "the progressives"
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:03 PM
Dec 2013

You seem a bit lost on this site...

Also, it's worth noting that "proof" can consist of the combination of a clearly-written sentence from a reputable source combined with basic language comprehension skills.

What's even more fascinating is that we have a clearly-sourced quotation from a nuclear industry organization against a series of proof-free, data-free, reference-free, citation free assertions; your own criterion for "critical thinking" leads to the inexorable conclusion that we ought to disregard those your posts of yours.

We'll also have to remember that you've derided the World Nuclear Organization as mere "cheerleaders." I presume this is based on firsthand knowledge of some sort - perhaps you buy your own pom-poms from the same supplier?

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
15. Wow! I was hoping to have a nice discussion but you went nuclear.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 08:16 PM
Nov 2013

"Your knowledge of science being SO BAD " Ah, man.

Go peddle your nuclear propaganda elsewhere.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
21. Well, it's true..
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 12:39 PM
Nov 2013

rhett,

Well it's TRUE. If you had better knowledge of the science, technology, laws, regulations....then you wouldn't have fallen for the anti-nuke propaganda and parroted it here.

Where did you learn that "no insurance companies insure nuclear power plants". As you can see, it isn't true; but you posted it here.

PamW

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
9. See http://www.democraticunderground.com/112756356
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:34 PM
Nov 2013
Areva ups Olkiluoto compensation demand

The French-German nuclear contractor Areva-Siemens has increased its demand for compensation over an abandoned deal to provide the third reactor at the Olkiluoto nuclear power plant. The company is now demanding a total of 2.6 billion euros in compensation—an increase of 700 million euros on its previous demand.

The legal disputes around the third reactor set to be built at Olkiluoto in Eurajoki have taken a new turn. Both the Finnish consortium Teollisuuden Voima (TVO) and Areva-Siemens are demanding compensation from the other party.

The project has been delayed by at least seven years from its original start date of 2009, and the builder Areva-Siemens and the customer TVO have traded accusations as each tries to blame the other party.

TVO announced on Tuesday that Areva had updated its arbitration claim with an increased demand for compensation. The sum is now 2.6 billion euros—700 million euros more than originally claimed....


http://yle.fi/uutiset/areva_ups_olkiluoto_compensation_demand/6907271

A nuclear plant that's 7 years behind schedule and currently at 300% + original cost estimate in a country that has no "antinuke" forces to deal with.

This project was to be a flagship operation for the nuclear industry - they said it would be a transparent case study in how the 'modern' nuclear industry could deliver on-time and on-budget when the regulatory regime was working with them.

I'd say they've done a spectacular job of showing the world exactly that.

For background on this clusterf*&k see wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olkiluoto_Nuclear_Power_Plant


And a similar reactor at Flamanville France is turning out the same way.

Way behind schedule and waaaay over budget.

...Construction on a new reactor, Flamanville 3, began on 4 December 2007.[2] The new unit is an Areva European Pressurized Reactor type and is planned to have a nameplate capacity of 1,650 MWe.

EDF has previously said France's first EPR would cost €3.3 billion and start commercial operations in 2012, after construction lasting 54 months.

On 3 December 2012 EDF announced that the estimated costs have escalated to €8.5 billion ($11 billion), and the completion of construction is delayed to 2016. The next day the Italian power company Enel announced it was relinquishing its 12.5% stake in the project, and 5 future EPRs, so would be reimbursed its project stake of €613 million plus interest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamanville_Nuclear_Power_Plant

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
10. SCIENCE says that? Really?
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:35 PM
Nov 2013

What of the scientists who don't agree with your pro-nuclear polemics?

For example, please see this link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017160724

wherein Dr. Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute talks about how we can free ourselves from oil, coal and nuclear completely by 2050, and substantially before then. He takes an integrative, systems approach and shows how smart use of materials, smart management of renewables, and smart design of the grid in the first place (distributed rather than centralized) will result in a more robust, less risky, and sustainable energy future.

Yes, it's one hour long. I would recommend watching at least the part from 45m to just over 1h -- 15-20 minutes or so. In that part of the talk he covers the following topics:

1 - Manufacturing capacity of photovoltaics exceeds usage, so prices continue to drop
2 - The speed with which solar and wind have added generating capacity, and have attracted private investment
3 - Coal and nuclear are having trouble attracting private investment due to expense and risks
4 - He notes that efficiency is a major component of a sustainable energy future
5 - At 48m in, he shows charts describing how to manage the variability of renewables vs. fluctuating demand, and talks about what is being done now (in other words this is not just theory)
6 - He talks about how distributed generation is much more reliable vis a vis a breakdown, i.e. one breakdown does not cause widespread cascading outages
7 - Germany, the world's 4th largest economy, now generates 23% of its power using renewables; Denmark 41% (mostly wind); Portugal did 70% renewable energy generation over the first half of this year, and Spain did 48%. Iowa and South Dakota generate 25% of their power using wind.
8 - He shows a chart of how one French company manages the grid, showing actual vs. predicted wind generation capacity
9 - He shows how Denmark has moved from a centralized generation grid to widely distributed, and also notes there is more small scale ownership by e.g. farmers, co-ops and individuals
10 - At 57m in, he notes that here in the US we have an aging, dirty and insecure electric generation system that needs to be replaced by 2050 in any case; we can choose how to do this; the costs are virtually the same whatever choice we make, but the risks are very, very different and smaller for renewables and better efficiency and better design of our energy generation systems
11 - Summary at 1h in

So if you decide to watch any of that video, please do come back and tell us how Dr. Lovins is NOT a SCIENTIST and how he DOESN'T know ANYTHING about ENERGY. Or you could just try and refute his facts and figures.

Thanks.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
12. BALONEY!!!
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:53 PM
Nov 2013

I hate break it to you; but MOST SCIENTIST consider Lovins a KOOK

The National Academy of Science says renewables can be AT MOST about 20% of our electric generation.

the only reason European countries can have greater for their countries is they are NOT stand alone grids;
and they ALL lean on the French NUKES

Lovins is a "POP" Scientist - but not a real one - you got that one right.

PamW

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
13. Oh dear...
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 07:31 PM
Nov 2013

...you may want to consider taking a remedial course in logic.

You say "the only reason European countries can have greater for their countries" (by which I presume you mean, "can have greater renewable capacity for their countries&quot , "is that they lean on French nukes."

But whatever traditional energy source they are leaning on at present for the remainder of their power -- and for 24/7 capability -- it is still the case that relative to the US, the countries I mentioned have a large part of their demand being addressed RIGHT NOW by renewables -- and all the ones I noted are ABOVE the 20% that the NAS claims is the MOST we can hope to do. These are real, already-existing counterexamples to the NAS claim. Or are you claiming that the US gets less sunshine and wind per acre than Germany and Denmark?

As for Lovins, here is one paragraph from the RMI site:

"After two years at Harvard, Mr. Lovins transferred to Oxford, and two years later became a don at 21, receiving in consequence an Oxford ma by Special Resolution (1971) and, later, 12 honorary doctorates of various U.S. and U.K. universities. He has been Regents’ Lecturer at the U. of California both in Energy and Resources and in Economics; Grauer Lecturer at the University of British Columbia; Luce Visiting Professor at Dartmouth; Distinguished Visiting Scholar at the University of Oklahoma; Distinguished Visiting Professor at the University of Colorado; Oikos Visiting Professor of Business, University of St. Gallen; an engineering visiting professor at Peking U.; 2007 MAP/Ming Professor at Stanford’s School of Engineering; and 2011– Professor of Practice at the Naval Postgraduate School."

(...)

"An $18-million utility experiment he cofounded and -steered in the 1990s, PG&E’s “ACT2,” validated his claim that very large energy savings could cost less than small or no savings, e.g. in houses comfortable with no air conditioner at up to +46ºC (+115°F) yet costing less to build."

(highlights mine)

I presume you must hold more credentials than Lovins, given your obvious contempt for him? Have you been invited to lecture at UC, Dartmouth, Stanford, University of BC, University of Oklahoma -- well let's just simplify, please let us in on your own illustrious career so we can compare and contrast. Have you worked with real companies and helped them to garner real energy efficiencies, saving them millions of dollars?

I note that you did not REFUTE one single factual bit of information presented in his very information- and detail-filled video. I also note you do not address the FACT that these energy efficiency gains and use of renewables are ALREADY BEING DONE. Because it's hard to refute REALITY, isn't it?

We have some very important choices facing us. We can invest heavily in nuke plants, shale oil drilling and so-called "clean coal"; or we can implement systems solutions that rely on more efficient usage, renewable generation, and distributed power grids. Your shrill polemics notwithstanding, there are real and viable alternatives to nuclear energy.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
14. Another "environmentalist" that doesn't understand the NAS
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 07:59 PM
Nov 2013

ljm2002 states
But whatever traditional eneljmrgy source they are leaning on at present for the remainder of their power -- and for 24/7 capability -- it is still the case that relative to the US, the countries I mentioned have a large part of their demand being addressed RIGHT NOW by renewables -- and all the ones I noted are ABOVE the 20% that the NAS claims is the MOST we can hope to do. These are real, already-existing counterexamples to the NAS claim.

ljm2002,

You are just another "environmentalist" that doesn't understand the NAS claim.

The NAS claim is for a stand alone grid

THINK about it. Your city could get 50% of its power from wind turbines; provided it has a grid to back-up the wind turbines when they slack off due to falling wind speed.

As long as it has the grid to fall back on; it can get ANY amount of power percentage.

But the grid as a whole has NOTHING else to fall back on; the grid is a stand alone grid; so by definition there's no backup

I don't have time right now to refute the TRIPE that you posted; but I will get around to REFUTING that garbage; I promise that.

Let me give you a hint; That data didn't factor in "capacity factor".

That stuff that is "all ready being done" RELIES on "non-renewable" sources.

Did you read the letter by climate scientist Hansen, et al:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/03/world/nuclear-energy-climate-change-scientists/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/03/world/nuclear-energy-climate-change-scientists-letter/index.html

Renewables like wind and solar and biomass will certainly play roles in a future energy economy, but those energy sources cannot scale up fast enough to deliver cheap and reliable power at the scale the global economy requires.

Renewables HAVE NOT shown that they can run a WHOLE GRID, and Hansen, et al; like other scientists agree they "CANNOT SCALE"

I'll provide a more scholarly REFUTATION of Lovin's CRAP when I have more time. I promise.

Stay tuned.

PamW

ljm2002

(10,751 posts)
17. I can't help it...
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 10:59 PM
Nov 2013

...for some reason, I see a vision of Rumpelstiltskin jumping up and down getting ready to tear himself in half because he's just SO ANGRY that anyone knows his name. In your case, you're just SO ANGRY that anyone disagrees with ANYTHING you say because you think you know it all.

Here's a clue for you: you don't know it all. You are typical of a certain sort of scientific thinker: very good (perhaps) at analytical thinking and solving difficult equations -- but with a narrow, reductionist viewpoint that does not allow for systems-level thinking -- and truly devoid of creative imagination. At least that is my observation from reading your comments in this group.

BTW, I can't help but notice you declined to supply us with details of your own illustrious career so we can compare it against that of Mr. Lovins.

Also you misquoted me:

"ljm2002 states
But whatever traditional eneljmrgy source they are leaning on at present for the remainder of their power -- and for 24/7 capability -- it is still the case that relative to the US, the countries I mentioned have a large part of their demand being addressed RIGHT NOW by renewables -- and all the ones I noted are ABOVE the 20% that the NAS claims is the MOST we can hope to do. These are real, already-existing counterexamples to the NAS claim."

BWAHAHA, I can practically see the spittle flying out of your mouth -- you get so emotional, it even interferes with your ability to cut and paste on a message board, while arguing with someone you believe to be your inferior -- because of course, anyone who would DARE to question you is one of those soft-headed, intellectually inferior "environmentalists". It is amusing to watch.

And of course you did not refute what I said about energy percentage, you just jumped up and down and claimed it cannot be so. You claim the NAS says we can only get 20% of our energy from renewables, yet other countries have already passed that. Again: it's hard to refute REALITY. You don't seem to even grasp the concept of a distributed grid, nor of load balancing between different sources. And you seem to think we won't ever be able to store the energy produced by renewables; I say we've done it before with other energy sources, and we'll do it again for renewables. There have already been advances in this area. Also we can use natural gas and biomass to even out power sources -- not carbon free, but still, achievable now as we go forward into a cleaner future.

Of course nuclear is in a class by itself -- when running, it's clean all right, as long as you ignore nuclear waste and the danger of radioactive contamination, that is -- effects that can last hundreds and thousands of years. By the way, how many civilizations have lasted over 1000 years? Because if we seriously expect to be able to handle nuclear waste, we need a civilization that is guaranteed to last that long and much longer.

The very first thing we must do is increase efficiency -- unless you believe, like Dick Cheney, that conservation, "while a personal virtue", cannot be part of a realistic energy policy. Yet with advances in materials science and other efficiencies, we could cut our power usage in half while maintaining the standard of living we have right now.

Didn't you say you work at Livermore? I guess it's true what Upton Sinclair said: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

PamW

(1,825 posts)
18. The above DELUSIONS are all in your head...
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 11:11 AM
Nov 2013

First, I'm not ANGRY; I just don't like to see good science ignored.

Your last paragraph demonstrates your poor logic and conclusions. Yes - I do work at Livermore; but Livermore is NOT reliant on the commercial nuclear industry. The Lawrence Livermore National Lab is NOT funded by the nuclear industry. LLNL is a national defense lab, and therefore is totally funded by the US Congress, and nothing that happens in / to the commercial nuclear industry affects LLNL. So you know what you can do with the INAPT and NON-APPLICABLE Upton Sinclair quote.

As for my career, I spent 5 years working for Dr. Charles Till at Argonne National Lab, after which I joined Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. Beyond that I can't say anything because all my work is CLASSIFIED. ( I've done some pretty IMPORTANT work; I just wish I could tell you about it. )

The above poster like so many other non-scientist "environmentalists" MISUNDERSTANDS the NAS, and so a little remedial elementary school arithmetic lesson is in order.

Many people throw around percentage whilly-nilly and make inapt comparisons. Percentages are fractions. When you have X%; one has to be mindful of X% of WHAT. We can demonstrate the elementary school level ERROR above with the following analogy.

Suppose there is an election and candidate Joe gets as the sum total of the votes, 60% of his city's votes.

Since 60% is greater than 50%; then candidate Joe gets the office? Right? NOT necessarily!!!

Suppose Joe's city comprises one-quarter of the population of the State; and the office Joe is running for is Governor?

As a percentage of the State, Joe's vote total is 15%.

That's the essence of the ERROR the above poster makes.

The quote by the NAS is that renewables can be at most 20% of a stand alone grid.

The above poster gave us renewable percentage for European countries. That's analogous to giving the percentage of the city above.

The NAS statement is based on the percentage of a stand alone grid which is analogous to State-based percentage above.

The European grid is BIGGER than the European countries.

The above poster ERRED in not converting to a common denominator. Don't they teach common denominators in any elementary school arithmetic classes anymore?

So counter to the MISINFORMATION that the above poster MISTAKENLY calls "REALITY"; the European wind turbines are NOT driving a stand-alone grid as per the NAS. They are a small part and <20% of the much larger European grid.

What's amusing is that someone with the lack of mathematical alacrity demonstrated above, would, upon finding his results at variance with those of the National Academy of Science, would assume that he "refuted" something by the National Academy of Sciences.

The National Academy of Sciences consists of our best and smartest scientists, and to think that a non-scientist environmentalist could somehow refute the National Academy of Science is not just MANIFESTLY IMPLAUSIBLE but it is downright LAUGHABLE.

The above poster tosses terms like "distributed grid" and "load balancing" around whilly-nilly. However, the above poster and I both know full well that the above poster has NO credentials in electrical engineering?

Do you have a degree in electrical engineering, and if so, from what University?

What the above poster fails to understand that even if we "firm" power from renewables with natural gas that is not quite carbon-free; we STILL exceed our carbon targets. From the California Energy Study of a few years ago:

If electric generation is predominantly intermittent renewable power, using natural gas to firm the power would likely result in greenhouse gas emissions that would alone would exceed the 2050 target for the entire economy. Thus, development of a high percentage of intermittent resources would require concomitant development of zero-emisions load balancing (ZELB) to about these emissions and maintain system reliability. ZELB might be achieved with a combination of energy storage devices and smart-grid technology.

The report hypothesises relief by ZELB technology; but where do we have energy storage technologies that can comprise a large percentage of the grid capacity? The only technology that even approaches is pumped-storage hydro, and that is a relatively small percentage of our grid capacity due to lack of sites.

Additionally:

Rise in renewable energy will require more use of fossil fuels

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/09/local/la-me-unreliable-power-20121210\

The issue of intermittency and the fact that renewables are "non-dispatchable" ( meaning we don't have a throttle to control ) is why the leading climate scientists, as well as other scientists; state that renewables such as solar and wind are "NOT SCALABLE. Just because you can generate at the few megawatt level, doesn't mean the technology scales to the gigawatt levels our loads demand.

That is why the climate scientists made the following call:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/03/world/nuclear-energy-climate-change-scientists/index.html

So much for the above MISINFORMATION and elementary school level arithmetic MISTAKES.

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.

PamW

PamW

(1,825 posts)
28. Nuclear Power is the right thing to do.
Wed Nov 27, 2013, 11:45 AM
Nov 2013

ljm2002 states
Didn't you say you work at Livermore? I guess it's true what Upton Sinclair said: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

How come whenever someone FAILS to prove their case on the merits; they always have to resort to impugning the motives of the other person by suggesting a financial conflict of interest?

As I stated, it is a FALSE ASSUMPTION that anyone in the employ of LLNL is beholding to the "nuclear industry" because LLNL doesn't get its funding from the "nuclear industry" but from Congress.

However, I would counter, is climate scientist James Hansen also somehow beholding to funding from the nuclear industry? After all, Hansen and his colleagues state that we should support nuclear power:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/03/world/nuclear-energy-climate-change-scientists/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/03/world/nuclear-energy-climate-change-scientists-letter/index.html

When are the so-called "environmentalists" going to get beyond this self-righteous assumption that people will only support nuclear power if they are somehow paid off, or owe their livelihood to it?

That's NOT the case with me; nor is it with Hansen and his colleagues.

We are SCIENTISTS, and Hansen, his colleagues and I have all looked at the evidence and we support nuclear power because it is the right thing to do.

Too many times in my discussions here, when one clears away the veils that the opposition throws up; that their opposition is grounded in safety, or waste disposal, insurance or whatever; it seems to come down to the environmentalist's belief that nuclear power is somehow "inconsistent" with their politics. In fact, the environmentalists featured in the documentary "Pandora's Promise" state that opposition to nuclear power is "expected" in the environmental movement; that it is a type of "group think". If you want to be an environmentalist; you have to "go along" with the "tribe".

Unfortunately, our descendants a few decades hence, who are the ones that will be dealing with the effects of the global warming catastrophe WON'T GIVE a DAMN about your politics.

They will be the one's to CURSE and DAMN the modern day environmentalists and their opprobrium will know no limits.

They will know that the solution to the CO2 crisis is in hand and rejected, and that the crisis could have been prevented, except the so-called "environmentalists" put their own parochial politics ahead of the environment.

I wonder why they call themselves "environmentalists" anyway; they don't seem to deserve the title if the environment is not their number one concern

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
36. Nuclear and coal with CCS are poor choices to address climate change
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 05:07 PM
Nov 2013

Is there anywhere a similar comparative analysis which concludes nuclear power is desirable?

Download: http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/ReviewSolGW09.pdf

View html abstract: http://www.rsc.org/publishing/journals/EE/article.asp?doi=b809990c

Energy Environ. Sci., 2009, 2, 148 - 173, DOI: 10.1039/b809990c

Review of solutions to global warming, air pollution, and energy security

Mark Z. Jacobson

Abstract
This paper reviews and ranks major proposed energy-related solutions to global warming, air pollution mortality, and energy security while considering other impacts of the proposed solutions, such as on water supply, land use, wildlife, resource availability, thermal pollution, water chemical pollution, nuclear proliferation, and undernutrition.

Nine electric power sources and two liquid fuel options are considered. The electricity sources include solar-photovoltaics (PV), concentrated solar power (CSP), wind, geothermal, hydroelectric, wave, tidal, nuclear, and coal with carbon capture and storage (CCS) technology. The liquid fuel options include corn-ethanol (E85) and cellulosic-E85. To place the electric and liquid fuel sources on an equal footing, we examine their comparative abilities to address the problems mentioned by powering new-technology vehicles, including battery-electric vehicles (BEVs), hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (HFCVs), and flex-fuel vehicles run on E85.

Twelve combinations of energy source-vehicle type are considered. Upon ranking and weighting each combination with respect to each of 11 impact categories, four clear divisions of ranking, or tiers, emerge.

Tier 1 (highest-ranked) includes wind-BEVs and wind-HFCVs.
Tier 2 includes CSP-BEVs, geothermal-BEVs, PV-BEVs, tidal-BEVs, and wave-BEVs.
Tier 3 includes hydro-BEVs, nuclear-BEVs, and CCS-BEVs.
Tier 4 includes corn- and cellulosic-E85.

Wind-BEVs ranked first in seven out of 11 categories, including the two most important, mortality and climate damage reduction. Although HFCVs are much less efficient than BEVs, wind-HFCVs are still very clean and were ranked second among all combinations.

Tier 2 options provide significant benefits and are recommended.

Tier 3 options are less desirable. However, hydroelectricity, which was ranked ahead of coal-CCS and nuclear with respect to climate and health, is an excellent load balancer, thus recommended.

The Tier 4 combinations (cellulosic- and corn-E85) were ranked lowest overall and with respect to climate, air pollution, land use, wildlife damage, and chemical waste. Cellulosic-E85 ranked lower than corn-E85 overall, primarily due to its potentially larger land footprint based on new data and its higher upstream air pollution emissions than corn-E85.

Whereas cellulosic-E85 may cause the greatest average human mortality, nuclear-BEVs cause the greatest upper-limit mortality risk due to the expansion of plutonium separation and uranium enrichment in nuclear energy facilities worldwide. Wind-BEVs and CSP-BEVs cause the least mortality.

The footprint area of wind-BEVs is 2–6 orders of magnitude less than that of any other option. Because of their low footprint and pollution, wind-BEVs cause the least wildlife loss.

The largest consumer of water is corn-E85. The smallest are wind-, tidal-, and wave-BEVs.

The US could theoretically replace all 2007 onroad vehicles with BEVs powered by 73000–144000 5 MW wind turbines, less than the 300000 airplanes the US produced during World War II, reducing US CO2 by 32.5–32.7% and nearly eliminating 15000/yr vehicle-related air pollution deaths in 2020.

In sum, use of wind, CSP, geothermal, tidal, PV, wave, and hydro to provide electricity for BEVs and HFCVs and, by extension, electricity for the residential, industrial, and commercial sectors, will result in the most benefit among the options considered. The combination of these technologies should be advanced as a solution to global warming, air pollution, and energy security. Coal-CCS and nuclear offer less benefit thus represent an opportunity cost loss, and the biofuel options provide no certain benefit and the greatest negative impacts.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
45. YAWN!!! Jacobsen again; and not even fresh; old 2009 "vintage"...
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 07:13 PM
Dec 2013

More "fertilizer" from Jacobsen.

I see where you got your predilection for "proof by assertion"; it's all Jacobsen ever does.

In a scientific paper, data, references, citations, good scholarly academic stuff; would be appreciated.

But the N-th posting of some two-bit academic's unsubstantiated preferences does get to be BORING.

PamW

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
16. Don't buy the false claim about the NAS
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 08:17 PM
Nov 2013

They said nothing of the sort, but the history of the claim on DU is a great example DrGreg/PamW's integrity.

He said it here in Feb 2011. The exchange starts with DrGreg/PamW's post 68 and continues for
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x275881#276952

#68: That's one of the reasons the National Academy of Science and Engineering says that renewables should be only about 15% to 20% of our electrical capacity. For the remaining 80% to 85%, we need energy sources that are dependable and not dependent on
the whims of Mother Nature.

#70: Why not do a little research. "American's Energy Future" published 2004 by
National Academy of Sciences Press.


The "America's Energy Future" series of publications were put out between 2008-2010. None were from 2004. The relevant 2009 book (that I was very very familiar with) did not even come close to making the conclusion that DrGreg/PamW continues to attribute to them.

http://sites.nationalacademies.org/Energy/Energy_080169


See also: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x285370

If you think that is bad you should see some of the other stuff that has issued from that shameless keyboard.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
19. Kristopher is so familiar with the study...
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 11:23 AM
Nov 2013

Kristopher is so familiar with the study...except for the parts he IGNORES

The 2009 National Academy Study states:

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12943&page=17

But the AEF Committee found that with a sustained, accelerated effort, nonhydroelectric renewables could collectively provide 10 percent of the nation’s electricity generation by 2020 and 20 percent or more by 2035. With current hydropower included, renewables could fulfill more than a quarter of the nation’s electricity needs by 2035

Note that the National Academy of Science report doesn't say that renewables could collectively provide ALL our electric power needs; as kristopher is so often telling us.

The National Academy of Science report doesn't say that renewables could collectively provide MOST of our electric power needs....

The National Academy of Science report does say that renewables could supply on the order of 10% to 20% in the near term.

Of course, this near term is the term during which the climate scientists say we may reach the "tipping point" with regard to CO2 emission. If you don't meet the CO2 emission targets in the near term; it won't matter what happens in the latter half of the 21st century; we will have the global warming catastrophe.

If that happens; it will be courtesy of the anti-nuclear "environmentalists".

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
20. OK, you redeemed yourself a bit with this:
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 12:21 PM
Nov 2013
Of course, this near term is the term during which the climate scientists say we may reach the "tipping point" with regard to CO2 emission. If you don't meet the CO2 emission targets in the near term; it won't matter what happens in the latter half of the 21st century; we will have the global warming catastrophe.

I agree with that 100%.

My point is, and has always been, that it's too fucking late for any low-carbon energy technology to keep the world from hitting that tipping point (On edit - we may even have already hit it - see http://guymcpherson.com/2013/01/climate-change-summary-and-update/ for a decent summary of the scientific conclusions.)

From a climate change perspective, studies about the future American power grid don't tell us much. What happens int he Rest of the World will be more important than what the USA decides to do, IMO.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
22. Only the CENSORED version from kristopher
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 07:19 PM
Nov 2013

kristopher states
The "America's Energy Future" series of publications were put out between 2008-2010. None were from 2004.

The National Academy of Sciences has been studying and making recommendations on energy policy for longer than kristopher would have one believe.

From the above, kristopher would have one believe that the National Academy of Sciences first "discovered" the issue of energy policy in 2008, and had no studies on the subject in 2004.

This is kristopher's CENSORED version of the history of National Academy of Science studies in energy policy. For example, he evidently doesn't know about:

Coal: Energy for the Future(1995)

http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=4918

The National Academy of Science has done LOTS of studies that kristopher isn't aware of.

If you want to know more about what the National Academy of Science has done; ask a scientist, like me.

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
23. DO I have it right, IIRC
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 09:40 PM
Nov 2013

the NAS says we can get 20% from renewables without gridwork and or storage....

After that the more gridwork (HVDC?) and storage deployed, the more renewables can be deployed, eventually reaching 100% from renewablles.

I lost the bookmarked link to the NAS paper, shame on me. But shame on PamW for dragging out that dead carcass, again and again.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
25. It has to do with the stability of the grid
Wed Nov 27, 2013, 10:59 AM
Nov 2013

FogerRox,

Basically, the National Academy of Sciences is saying is that the intermittent "non-dispatchable" ( no "throttle" ) nature of non-hydro renewables creates instability on the grid. The unreliable nature of the renewables can be compensated for by having enough "dispatchable" ( with "throttle" ) generators. ( It's like "covering" for an unreliable co-worker. ) According to the NAS, as long as the capacity of the dispatchable generators out numbers the capacity of the renewables by roughly 4:1; then the grid will remain stable. ( At the margin, it may take the "extra effort" of multiple co-workers to compensate for a single unreliable worker. )

The problem then is to get enough storage. However, that is going to be a very tall order. Imagine how much energy storage capacity one would have to have to store a single day's output of a 1,000 Mw(e) power plant, or 1 Gw(w) ( gigawatt ) power plant. The answer to that is simple; the amount of energy produced by a 1 Gw(e) power plant in a single day is 1 Gw-Day. ( The product of a unit of power and a unit of time is always a unit of energy. )

How much energy is 1 Gw-Day? You can get Wolfram Alpha to do the conversion for you:

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=convert+1+gigawatt-day+to+kilotons

and you find that 1 Gw-day is 20.6 kilotons or about the energy of the atomic bomb that vaporized Nagasaki.

So for EACH large electric power plant you want to supplant, and we have thousands; you need the ability to store an atom bomb's worth of energy.

At present, there's really only one technology that comes anywhere near to having that type of capacity; and that is pumped-storage hydro.

Unfortunately, that's limited by the number of sites; and the opposition from people who want to tear down dams rather than putting up more.

So we can't just "wave our hands" and say "problem solved" when it really isn't.

As for HVDC; that doesn't do anything for the non-dispatchable / unreliable nature of renewables. In fact, there's a downside because one of the methods for sensing the load so that you can match it ( which is the real problem ); is the frequency drift in an AC system when the load isn't matched. With DC; you've given that up.

The bottom line is that we aren't going to have the storage technologies or capacity on the type of time-scale we need to avert the global-warming catastrophe; which is why the top climate scientists say we need to go with nuclear power:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/03/world/nuclear-energy-climate-change-scientists/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/03/world/nuclear-energy-climate-change-scientists-letter/index.html

Renewables like wind and solar and biomass will certainly play roles in a future energy economy, but those energy sources cannot scale up fast enough to deliver cheap and reliable power at the scale the global economy requires. While it may be theoretically possible to stabilize the climate without nuclear power, in the real world there is no credible path to climate stabilization that does not include a substantial role for nuclear power

It's not just me that has come to this conclusion; it's the VAST MAJORITY of scientists; including climate scientists like James Hansen.

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
30. What do the National Academies of Science and Engineering say about our energy future?
Wed Nov 27, 2013, 05:08 PM
Nov 2013

Pegging current US consumption at 4,000TWH the NAS&E authors tell us that deploying existing energy efficiency technologies is our "nearest-term and lowest-cost option for moderating our nation’s demand for energy", and that accelerated "deployment of these technologies in the buildings, transportation, and industrial sectors could reduce energy use by about 15 percent (15–17 quads, that is, quadrillions of British thermal units) in 2020, relative to the EIA’s “business as usual” reference case projection, and by about 30 percent (32–35 quads) in 2030 (U.S. energy consumption in 2007 was about 100 quads)."

They state that more aggressive policies and incentives would produce more results and that most of the "energy efficiency technologies are cost-effective now and are likely to continue to be competitive with any future energy-supply options; moreover, additional energy efficiency technologies continue to emerge."

The authors offer that renewable energy sources "could provide about an additional 500 TWh (500 trillion kilowatt-hours) of electricity per year by 2020 and about an additional 1100 TWh per year by 2035 through new deployments."

They are less optimistic about increased contributions from nuclear plants writing that they might provide an additional 160 TWh of electricity per year by 2020, and up to 850 TWh by 2035, by modifying current plants to increase their power output and by constructing new plants." However they are very specific with warnings that nuclear powers economics for Gen3 plants are significantly worse than predicted by the 2003 MIT nuclear study. They further opine that failure to prove the economic viability of at least 5 merchant plants by 2020 (it used to be 2010) would probably rule out nuclear as a viable option going forward.

Since the report was penned we have seen a complete collapse of the very idea that US merchant reactors are even possible and the likelihood is that few, if any, new plants will actually be built. If any ARE built it is extremely unlikely that they will be able to demonstrate the economic viability that is called for in the Report. This means that if their caveat about proof of concept is accurate, new nuclear is unlikely to play any significant role in carbon reduction in the US.

And now we have Fukushima as a new barometer of costs to add to the benefit/cost ledger and the phenomenally rapid reduction in costs for solar.


Here is a link to download the Executive Summary, where the authors of the report summarize the salient points of the study.

Electricity from Renewable Sources Status, Prospects, and Impediments
Executive Summary

http://www.nap.edu/nap-cgi/report.cgi?record_id=12619&type=pdfxsum

PamW

(1,825 posts)
31. We can alway count on kristopher...
Wed Nov 27, 2013, 07:11 PM
Nov 2013

We can always count on kristopher to MISREPRESENT that which he doesn't understand; including ANYTHING that comes from the National Academy of Science.

It's no wonder; if someone can't understand the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics which mankind discovered over 150 years ago; how can one expect someone to understand and faithfully represent the latest from the USA's most prestigious assemblage of scientists.

The National Academy of Sciences actually LAMENTS the fact that ill-considered opposition by "greenies" that don't understand the technology will limit what practically all scientists including the Academy agree is our best hope for avoiding the catastrophe of global warming. As James Hansen and colleagues state:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/03/world/nuclear-energy-climate-change-scientists-letter/index.html

Renewables like wind and solar and biomass will certainly play roles in a future energy economy, but those energy sources cannot scale up fast enough to deliver cheap and reliable power at the scale the global economy requires. While it may be theoretically possible to stabilize the climate without nuclear power, in the real world there is no credible path to climate stabilization that does not include a substantial role for nuclear power

The generations of the future that will suffer the effects of global warming will CURSE and DAMN the anti-nuclear "environmentalists" of today.

The good thing about science is that it is true, whether or not you believe in it.
--Neil deGrasse Tyson

PamW

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
3. That should be "Invalid logic" in your title
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 04:48 PM
Nov 2013

As you well know, that is nothing more than another of your garbage "analysis".

You've at least included a nod to the lack of validity in the text.

colsohlibgal

(5,275 posts)
6. No Nukes
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 05:50 PM
Nov 2013

Cheaper or not nuclear is just too fraught with danger in the short and long term.

Take way the legalized bribery that is now our political system and we'd be mostly renewable by now.

NNadir

(33,514 posts)
24. Yeah. Apparently. That's why we've had cheering for this rich boy's fantasy for 60 years...
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 11:24 PM
Nov 2013

...with no result other than this:

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/

2.66 ppm in a single year over October of 2012, the second worst October ever observed.

But don't worry, be happy. We have lots of people around to burn coal and gas in the spectacular effort to tell us, year after year, decade after decade, how wonderful so called "renewable energy" is.

This calls for another round of chanting and prayer, and for the hell of it, let's add a little cut and paste.

Ignorance kills people.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es3051197

claras

(5 posts)
26. Well, many countries are pressing ahead with alternative energy sources
Wed Nov 27, 2013, 11:07 AM
Nov 2013

Just take a look at what's going on in China. Wind has actually overtaken nuclear in terms of terawatt hours. Check out this chart:

http://www.statista.com/markets/5/energy-utilities/chart/1233/wind-outpaces-nuclear-in-china/

Anybody who says nuclear energy is our only option is narrow-minded. Try telling that to the people of Fukushima. Green and clean energy can replace it - it will just take more time and it will be more expensive. But it will be worth it in the end.

FBaggins

(26,731 posts)
27. China isn't a great example
Wed Nov 27, 2013, 11:14 AM
Nov 2013

What you're seeing in the chart is the impact of the time it takes to build a nuclear reactor.

Combine the declining growth rate of wind power in-country with the large number of reactors nearing completion... and that chart likely reflects a temporary condition.

The good news is that both technologies (as well as solar) have strong support. We'll have to keep our fingers crossed that coal will eventually lose out.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
35. The Answer to Climate Change Is Neither Renewable Energy, Nor Nuclear Power
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 04:46 PM
Nov 2013

Over the past decade, 89% of growth in the world's energy consumption has come from fossil fuels.



I don't think nuclear and/or renewable power will make much headway against atmospheric carbon in the next couple of decades, especially since nuclear generation is on an accelerating decline (down 11% in the last two years).

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
37. Also over the past decade renewables began to achieve grid parity
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 05:21 PM
Nov 2013

They are increasingly a less expensive choice than fossil fuels.
ETA: Your choice to use primary energy as a benchmark badly skews the reality since renewable energy sources are best measured as "end consumption" of energy.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
38. The picture isn't much better when "energy" is restricted to electricity
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 06:37 PM
Nov 2013


80% of the world's electricity growth comes from fossil fuels.

Which of course ignores all the carbon from transportation, space heating, cement manufacture, land-use changes etc.

Sorry, kristopher, your renewable god is a figment of your faith.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
39. Judging by that off point answer you don't seem to know what primary energy is
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 06:46 PM
Nov 2013

I repeat the main point you ignored - in the past decade renewables have increasingly become less expensive than the fossil fuel alternatives.

The secondary point, about primary energy, looks to have confused you. Primary energy is the total energy embodied in a fuel; of which, usually only a minor percentage is delivered to the end user for work. A good rule of thumb is that 70%+ of the energy in the coal on your graph isn't helpful to the end user.

That has significant implications on the quantity of renewables (like wind and solar that produce electricity directly) required to replace or substitute for coal.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
40. That's why the last one wasn't in terms of primary energy, but electricity.
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 07:56 PM
Nov 2013

You know, "end consumption"?

Over the last 10 years, wind and solar together have delivered a paltry 8% share of the annual growth in electricity production. Not of the growth in primary energy, the growth in electricity production.

I used primary energy initially because I'm far more concerned with CO2 emissions than I am with electricity consumption.

If we compare wind&solar to primary energy growth, their average share drops to 4.2% over 10 years, and 6.8% over the last 5 years. That's a lot of new carbon to offset...

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
41. And you still ignore the main point raised against your OP
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 08:04 PM
Nov 2013

You have, however, provided evidence for it.

If we compare wind&solar to primary energy growth, their average share drops to 4.2% over 10 years, and 6.8% over the last 5 years.


You might find this useful since it addresses both the rapidly changing trend lines for renewables and the use of primary energy as a meaningful metric.

Energy efficiency and renewables are more than adequate. As you can see from the cost-deployment charts we are at a major turning point in what will be selected going forward.









Just as food for thought, here is the status of world final energy consumption by source.



This is the concept behind calls for energy efficiency (a strategy that is anathema to the coal and nuclear industry because it slashes their profits).

The energy wasted from thermal sources is a very significant factor in understanding the issue of what energy source is doing what. Primary energy measures the total amount of energy that a fuel source yields - no matter whether it is powering our lives (ie electricity or or propulsion for autos) or whether it is waste heat being transferred to our waterways from nuclear plants or heat causing NO2* emissions off the hot engine block of an internal combustion.

An alternative (and most say better) way of looking at the production and use of energy is to measure what is needed and consumed by the actual work being accomplished. For example, an average internal combustion engine (ICE) powered car ejects 85% of the energy content of the gasoline it consumes as heat and only uses 15% for motive power. When we look for alternatives to gasoline do we think biofuels, and duplicate the efficiencies of the gasoline powered ICE or do we focus on batteries and electric motors that have far better efficiencies - typically using 90% of the input energy for locomotion?

Writ large, what does that mean? Take a look at this flow chart and note that the "rejected energy" comprised 58.1 quads of the total 95.1 quads of primary energy used in the US last year. How much was actually used to do the work of the nation? Only 37 quads.



If we look more closely at the various sectors we can see where the major opportunities for energy efficiency improvements are to be found:

Sorry, no tables on DU but the bold is a legend for the information below it.
Sector: Gross - Useful Energy; Rejected Energy (proportion of useful to rejected)

Transportation: 26.7 - 5.6; 21.1 (21 : 79)
Electric Generation: 38.10 - 12.40; 25.70 (33 : 67)

In sectors where the heat value of the energy is useful we see much higher efficiency
Industrial: 23.9 - 19.1; 4.77 (80 : 20)
Commercial: 8.29 - 5.39; 2.90 (65 : 35)
Residential: 10.60 - 6.9; 3.72 (65 : 35)

Now let's look at the Solar, Wind and Hydro Subset of Electric Generation. These produce electricity directly with insignificant primary energy lost as heat in the generation phase, however they do incur line losses of about 7%.

SolarWindHydro: 4.07 - 3.78; 0.285 (93 : 7)

Let's compare that to
Nuclear: 8.05 - 2.62; 5.43 (33 : 67)

In the US, the our fleet of nuclear reactors (what is it, down to 99 and falling fast?) might have produced 8.05 quads of primary energy, but at about 35% efficiency at the busbar and a further 7% line loss, (8.05q x 0.35 = 2.82q x 0.93) that only equals 2.62 quads actually delivered to the end user for work.

3.78q > 2.62q

See also: http://www.nawindpower.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.11788#utm_medium=email&utm_source=LNH+07-19-2013&utm_campaign=NAW+News+Headlines


Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»The Answer to Climate Cha...