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kristopher

(29,798 posts)
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:54 AM Dec 2013

Independent Scotland would phase out nuclear power

Independent Scotland would phase out nuclear power
2 December 2013


New nuclear would not play a role in an independent Scotland, according to a white paper published by the Scottish government in November.

The current Scottish government is opposed to the building of any new nuclear power stations in Scotland and will phase out existing stations in Scotland over time, it said.

Scotland has four AGR reactors in operation at the Huntersont B and Torness sites, which are due to close in 2023. However, EDF Energy plans to extend the lifetime of the fleet for as long as it remains safe and cost effective to do so.

In an independent Scotland the decommissioning costs of Scotland's three non-operational sites (Dounreay, Hunterston A and Chapelcross) would continue to be met from the public purse. EDF Energy would meet the cost of decommissioning Hunterston B and Torness. Costs relating to nuclear decommissioning outside of Scotland would be for the government of the rest of UK to meet.

The Scottish Government said ...

http://www.neimagazine.com/news/newsindependent-scotland-would-phase-out-nuclear-power-4139286
14 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

MADem

(135,425 posts)
1. I wonder what else they'd phase out?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:59 AM
Dec 2013

Road maintenance? The National Health? Public education?

Do they put in more than they give back, or is it the other way around, and do they as a group benefit from economies of scale?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
3. They'd have to start paying for that infrastructure maintenance themselves, though.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:12 PM
Dec 2013

That's not cheap.

I've seen this topic come up for years...no, decades. Nothing ever comes of it.

I just wonder if they'll stop talking and start doing, ever...?

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
4. What are you talking about?
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:24 PM
Dec 2013

The OP is about them wanting to shut down their nuclear plants.
It is a reaction to the shift in policy by the Conservatives away from renewables and energy efficiency to nuclear.

They are "doing" a great deal with renewables.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
5. Hello? "Independent Scotland?" That's the focus of the OP title.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:42 PM
Dec 2013

The OP isn't just about "them" wanting to shut down their nuke plants. It's in the context of the independence vote. THAT's what I am talking about and what the article is talking about.

"Independent" means there's no influx of dough from Merrie Olde London to pay for things like shutting down nuke plants, fixing roads, funding schools, etc.

Scotland has talked about breaking away for the UK for eons. They talk, talk, talk and they never do. But now, maybe they will.

Here--read this--it will help bring you up to speed (from the perspective of a Welsh MP):

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/david-jones-scotland-breaking-away-6353334

Mr Jones argued Scotland would lose a lot of the benefits it enjoys being part of the UK if it were to leave. It would lead to a separate currency for the Scottish without the benefits of being part of the UK pound, taxes would have to go up according to reports, he said, and it would lose its place with Britain as key player on the international stage.

“The impartial Institute of Fiscal Studies has said an independent Scotland would face big tax rises or big cuts in public services because of an ageing population and falling oil revenues,” Mr Jones said.

“Even under the most optimistic scenario, the IFS says there would need to be an 8 percentage point rise in the basic rate of income tax – meaning an average increase in the tax bill of basic rate taxpayers in Scotland of around £1,000 a year – or a 6% cut in public spending, by 2021-22, in order to balance the books and put Scotland’s long term finances on a sustainable footing.

“Hiking the basic rate of income tax from 20% to 28%. That’d be a hefty price tag for discarding the 300 year old United Kingdom, and a heavy burden for the people of Scotland to bear long into the future.”

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
6. Right, got it.
Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:56 PM
Dec 2013

Thanks. Renewable electricity from wind stands to be an export item for them so this information would help explain their position.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
8. You're kidding, right?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 10:10 AM
Dec 2013

You're not seriously pretending that wind exports would make the sector a net positive for an independent Scotland... are you?

Scotland generates over a third of the UK's renewables, but only has about 7-8% of the population. Just picking up the costs of the existing subsidies would cost the average household over $1,000/year. SNP is promising to cut green charges from energy bills, but that just shifts the burden to the general fund. Households are paying it one way or the other.

Making things worse, they would lose the market-adjusting policies that help cushion the impact of renewables. Sure... they would export wind power to the UK (though they would now be in competition with other sources like Ireland - without the current benefit of must-purchase plans in the UK), but it would be when they had a surplus (thus having to dump it at cheaper prices)... while they would need more expensive imports to fill the gap when the wind wasn't blowing.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
10. And who will take over the other subsidies that come from London?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 02:15 PM
Dec 2013

If the thousand-a-year is just "energy related" then how much will people have to pay over to fund "other infrastructure?"

It sounds like Scotland will have a challenge making this work unless individual citizens are willing to either pay much more in taxes or accept reduced social, community and infrastructure services. The financials don't seem to add up.

FBaggins

(26,727 posts)
11. Well... not to sound like a republican...
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 02:39 PM
Dec 2013

...but subsidies don't actually "come from London". They originate with the taxpayers.

I think the median income in Scotland compares favorably to the rest of the country, so you would have to compare the taxes they pay to the benefits they received. In some cases, the gap would work in their favor.

For instance, the new "strike price" supports for new nuclear plants will increase power bills, but wouldn't increase them for an independent Scotland. Other gaps (as with employment in the naval shipbuilding industry) would work the other way (e.g., the UK won't be ordering their new destroyers from another country).

It's hard to guess what the overall balance would be... but we can certainly say that the cost of the existing renewables supports would a far heavier burden than the benefit of income from exports from those renewables.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,295 posts)
7. No, the OP article *is* just about shutting down nuke plants
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:28 AM
Dec 2013

It appears in 'Nuclear Engineering International', and doesn't talk about anything apart from the nuclear plants. Plus, this is the Environment and Energy Group. If you want to talk about Scottish independence, then don't try to hijack this thread. There's the UK group, GD, World Forum group, or Foreign Affairs group if you want to talk about fixing roads and funding schools.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
9. Look at the thread title. What are the first two words?
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 02:09 PM
Dec 2013

You do realize that -- environmental and energy group notwithstanding--that the two issues are INTERTWINED?

I'm not "hijacking" the thread. I am asking an entirely related question: How will an independent Scotland AFFORD to shut down those nuclear power plants? They won't be getting money from London if they achieve independence, so where is it to come from? These shut-down procedures cost a good deal of money; they don't happen for free.

The roads and schools are mentioned because they will COMPETE for the funding needed to close the plants. The article I provided talked about how much the taxes will need to be raised per person should independence happen--and that's not counting the costs associated with closing the nuke plants.

I don't think it is "out of line" at all to talk about the financials of how an environmental/energy issue--like closing a nuke plant-- is going to be achieved.

If you prefer context-free conversations that don't touch on the actual issues, though, I'll bow out.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,295 posts)
12. Here is a thread about Scottish budgets
Wed Dec 4, 2013, 02:39 PM
Dec 2013
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024094576

This thread points out that the companies running the plants that are still generating power are going to be liable for shutdown costs - whether or not Scotland goes independence. The ones that have already shut down are currently being cleaned up with public money; that will have to happen whether or not Scotland decided to not build any new ones. It's part of the general cost of government, and you may as well talk about it along with all the other stuff that government runs, in a discussion on the Scottish governments budget proposals.

kristopher

(29,798 posts)
13. I think I came across something that might interest you
Sat Dec 7, 2013, 10:38 PM
Dec 2013

I stumbled on this article

Scottish independence: Lower energy costs ‘likely’
FIVE leading academic experts today claimed that an analysis of the impact of recent UK government policy decisions on nuclear energy suggested that Scottish consumers could face lower prices in an independent Scotland.

The experts from Aberdeen, Birmingham, Robert Gordon’s and Cardiff universities and Queen’s University Belfast have been studying the effect of new policy developments at Westminster on the Scottish renewables industry, and their effect on electricity consumers in Scotland as part of the UK or an independent Scotland.

The research project, Delivering Renewable Energy Under Devolution, is being funded by the UK’s Economic and Social Research Council and led by Dr David Toke, a Reader in Energy Politics at Aberdeen University.

He explained today that the SNP was set against nuclear power plants being given planning consent on Scottish soil, and had ambitious targets to supply 100 per of electricity consumption in Scotland from renewable energy by 2020...

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-lower-energy-costs-likely-1-3220364

I also found a PDF of the preliminary summary of their research, disseminated in Jan this year.
http://cplan.subsite.cf.ac.uk/cplan/sites/default/files/DREUD-SummaryReport.pdf

Scottish 'devolution' isn't a topic for me, but you seemed to be pretty interested so I thought I'd pass it on.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
14. I found a copy of the actual report as well, it's pretty dry
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 10:23 AM
Dec 2013

but the conclusions can be sussed out from the summary, pretty much.

http://issuu.com/therobertgordonuniversity/docs/the_dreud_report_2013

If there is independence, and IF the Scots can incentivize their wind farm systems and other systems, then the Scots may save a tiny amount over keeping an "energy union" with UK even if they go ahead w/independence. The problem, according to the report, is that they're doing the "lotta talk, little walk" thing:


This perspective raises a different question about the effects of devolution: not to ask what have
the devolved government’s done for renewable energy within their own territory, but to what extent
have they used their access to policy formulation processes in Westminster to challenge the
prevailing UK energy pathway? The evidence of our research suggests that the devolved
governments have not done so.
Indeed, with the exception of Scottish opposition to new nuclear,
both Scottish and Welsh Governments are broadly comfortable with an energy development
pathway that consists of large developments, international investment and conventional generation
technologies. Indeed, our research suggests that energy generally – and renewable energy in
particular – is not a subject on which there is fundamental disagreement about policy direction
between London, Cardiff, Edinburgh or Belfast.
Thus an alternative reading of the effects of devolution on renewable energy is that Scotland’s
experience shows us the conditions that are required for the UK renewable energy pathway to
work successfully: significant elite cohesion around the agenda and access to a wider pool of
supportive resources. That there is less sign of elite cohesion around the expansion of renewables
in Westminster, Cardiff or Belfast qualifies the scope for any easy ‘borrowing’ of policy lessons
from Scotland. However, given the asymmetric and uneven distribution of powers attendant on
devolution, Scotland may find it hard to fully insulate its renewable energy ambitions from any
outfall from conflict over the direction of energy policy in Westminster.


I am getting the sense that there are a lot of people in Westminster that are vested in the status quo, and they are reluctant to support anything that requires a huge outlay with returns that aren't going to be obvious immediately. They'd as soon someone else take the risk so long as they can be in on the reward.

The devolution issue is salient to this discussion for several reasons--first, the UK government has planning permission for new nuke plants; if Scotland doesn't vote for independence, those plants might still get built. Also, the whole issue of "Can they go it alone?" is at the forefront of discussions leading up to the vote--this is discussed in the first report and the addendum report that followed--like it or not it is always, it seems, "all about the money."

I found an article that is less technical that lays it all out, big picture. It does present the sanguine scenarios offered in the report as well as opposing views. That said, the big picture isn't at all clear. There will still be nuke plants in Scotland, Scotland will continue to subsidize nuke power, even as they personally oppose it, the UK will subsidize their costs if they stay in an energy union--the power issues are all mixed up and mired in the independence question, and whether or not Scotland retains a "grid" union with UK should they vote for independence next year.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/dec/05/scottish-independence-boosted-cost-green-energy-reforms-ageing

The naysayers have this POV:

There was a contradiction in the Scottish government's proposals because having a UK-Scotland deal on energy co-operation after independence meant Scotland would be helping fund new nuclear power while having a policy opposing new nuclear investment.

He added: "I can't see how the Scottish government is going to work in reality because they can't have it both ways. They can't not pay for nuclear power and then (expect to) get the renewables incentives under the same contract."

Tom Greatrex, Labour's shadow energy minister at Westminster, said Toke was now ignoring his previous report's evidence that Scotland's renewables investment was heavily dependent on UK subsidy.

Scottish power firms get a third of overall UK support for renewables despite having 8.5% of the UK population, so after independence electricity bills would soar or investment would need to be cut.

"This confusion seems to run right through the report. It is highly misleading, cherry-picking statistics and twisting the facts to produce an image of a separate Scotland that is far from realistic," Greatrex said.


I will admit I don't have enough of an "inside baseball" knowledge of these players to know who is bloviating and who is speaking hard truths--but I am not getting a sense that they can pull this off easily. There may need to be investment, and the question is, will the people be willing to 'invest' through taxation or will they need to privatize?

And, of course, all of this hinges on whether or not Scotland votes for independence next year.
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