Environment & Energy
Related: About this forumOffshore wind farms can protect coastal cities from hurricanes: scientists
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/26/offshore-wind-farms-can-protect-coastal-cities-from-hurricanes-scientists/Huge offshore wind farms can protect vulnerable coastal cities against devastating cyclones like Katrina and Sandy by tempering winds and ocean surges before they reach land, a study said Wednesday.
Had such installations existed at the time, Hurricane Katrina which ravaged New Orleans in 2005, and Sandy, which smashed the coastlines of New York and New Jersey in 2012, would have been reduced to strong but not devastating winds, it said.
The little turbines can fight back the beast, said Cristina Archer, an associate professor of Earth sciences at the University of Delaware.
The study, published in the journal Nature Climate Change, is the first to demonstrate that wind farms, deployed on a grand scale, can buffer violent hurricanes, the researchers said.
liberal N proud
(60,334 posts)At least that was my first thought.
That said, I am still a little skeptical on the claim even though I am pro-wind energy.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)And you can read the author's prepublication copy here:
http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/WindHurricane/HurricTurbPaperNatCC.pdf
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)This trio clearly has too much time on their hands.
Four points:
1) It isn't plausible at any point in the forseable future. That's very close to the current global wind generation capacity of every turbine combined... and we're going to install that just to protect one city? There are dozens of population centers threatened by hurricanes. Do they all get an array of 78,000 turbines? Of course not.
2) I love how they pretend that Jacobsen has "an advanced climateweather computer model that correctly treats the energy extraction of wind turbines". It's his own model of course. People with actual backgrounds in the science still have trouble modeling the impact of wind turbines on the other turbines in the same array. It's quite reasonable to doubt that a guy with no apparent fluid dynamics expertise is going to whip up a "model" that accurately predicts the impact of tens of thousands of them on a hurricane.
3) They obviously forgot that in order for a wind turbine to extract significant energy from the wind... it has to be generating electricity at the time. Many of the ways that turbines survive heavy winds involve ceasing generation. But let's imagine that they come up with a design that can keep working through the storm. In order for the plan to work... you have to deliver 300 GW of electricity during a hurricane. That means transmission capacity capable of redirecting enough electricity to power roughly 1/3rd of the country... all from New Orleans. And... of course... power lines struggle during hurricanes and demand collapses as parts of the grid collapse. Any idea what happens if you send 300 GWs of electricity through a collapsing network without being able to shut down the generation?
4) Don't large hurricanes rate out in the hundreds of TWs? How exactly does 300 GWs of extraction (plus friction and inefficiencies) knock down that much of a hurricane? See #2 above... the model may not treat this as "correctly" as they assume.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)You wrote "Four points"
For accuracy's sake, that should be:
"Four inaccurate and poorly crafted attempts to create talking points to benefit the interests of the nuclear industry"
1) So what? 5 years ago you'd have claimed the present global capacity would be impossible.
2) You continue to try and smear Jacobson with falsehoods because he wrote a (correct and valid) analysis that found nuclear power was not a desirable part of the energy mix we should pursue. I mean, really, he doesn't know fluid dynamics???
M.S. (1991) and Ph.D. (1994) Atmospheric Science, University of California at Los Angeles
Scientific Background
The main goal of Jacobsons research is to understand better severe atmospheric problems, such as air pollution and global warming, and develop and analyze large-scale clean-renewable energy solutions to them. To address this goal, he has developed and applied numerical solvers and models to simulate air pollution, weather, and climate. In 1993-4, he developed the worlds first air pollution model to treat mutual feedback to weather and climate of gases and size- and composition-resolved aerosols, and in 2001, the first coupled air-pollution-weather-climate model to telescope from the global to urban scale. Some later versions of the model simulated the evolution of the mixing state of aerosols and clouds and the sub-grid exhaust plumes of all aircraft worldwide. Individual solvers he has developed include those for cloud and aerosol coagulation, breakup, condensation/evaporation, freezing, dissolution, chemical equilibrium, and lightning; air-sea exchange; ocean chemistry; greenhouse gas absorption; and surface processes. In 1993, he developed the fastest ordinary differential equation solver for a given level of accuracy at the time and applied it to atmospheric chemistry problems. In 2000, he discovered that black carbon, the main component of soot aerosol particles, might be the second-leading cause of global warming in terms of radiative forcing, after carbon dioxide. This result and five subsequent papers provided the original scientific basis for European Parliament Resolution B7-0474/2011 calling for black carbon emission controls on climate grounds (Sep. 14, 2011), the 21-country Climate and Clean Air Coalition to Reduce Short-Lived Climate Pollutants (2012), and five proposed U.S. laws from 2008-2010. His findings that carbon dioxide domes over cities and carbon dioxide buildup since preindustrial times have enhanced air pollution mortality through its feedback to particles and ozone served as a scientific basis for the Environmental Protection Agencys 2009 approval of the first U.S. regulation of carbon dioxide (the California waiver). In 2005, his group developed the first world wind map based on data alone. He also coauthored a plan, featured on the cover of Scientific American, to power the world for all purposes with wind, water, and sunlight (WWS). To date, he has published two textbooks of two editions each and over 135 peer-reviewed journal articles. He has testified three times for the U.S. Congress. Nearly a thousand researchers have used computer models he has developed. In 2005, he received the American Meteorological Society Henry G. Houghton Award for "significant contributions to modeling aerosol chemistry and to understanding the role of soot and other carbon particles on climate. In 2013, he received an American Geophysical Union Ascent Award for his dominating role in the development of models to identify the role of black carbon in climate change and the Global Green Policy Design Award for the "design of analysis and policy framework to envision a future powered by renewable energy." He has also served on the Energy Efficiency and Renewables advisory committee to the U.S. Secretary of Energy.
3) You continue to reveal exactly how shallow you actually are when putting together these attempts at crafting nuclear industry talking points.
You see, it is obvious you didn't even attempt to read the actual study. On your #2 and modeling within an array:
And now about your talking "point" #3 from the same page 197:
As for number 4, screw it, you aren't worth the effort.
Those interested in the study can find it at the link in post 2.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Most of us have been arguing about this here for a decade, and we all know where we are.
FBaggins (who has been here for four and a half years) has a right to say that the premise of the OP is silly. You (who have been here for over ten years) have a right to argue, in turn, that it's not silly, but you don't need to make this thread a referendum on nuclear power.
Thanks.