Onsite Hydrogen Production via Electrolysis

[nationalize the fed]

From ITM Power
http://www.itm-power.com/hydrogen-tv/

Hydrogen generated by water electrolysis is the cleanest fuel available today.

All that is needed is a water supply and an electricity supply, and this can be in the form of renewable energy.



The hydrogen is then produced onsite to prevent the need for transportation of fuel, thus eliminating the usual process of trucking fuel to where it is required, and saving emissions.

When used, the only emission is water, so it is a closed cycle and the cleanest form of fuel.

ITM Power's Transportable Hydrogen Refuelling Station, HFuel is a self-contained module suitable for refuelling hydrogen-powered road vehicles and forklift trucks

Twenty Hydrogen Myths by noted environmentalist Amory Lovins
http://www.rmi.org/Knowledge-Center/Library/E03-05_TwentyHydrogenMyths

[WhiteTara]

1. The electricity comes from the sun and

I assume waste water could be used instead of potable water. Really a beautiful design!

[FogerRox]

2. ITM builds stations in California

Though IIRC most of their business is in the western EU.

[oldhippie]

3. I'd like to see some numbers

I'd like to see some numbers, such as how many kWHr per day are produced by that particular PV array?

How much hydrogen is produced per day by the PV array at that facility (without any outside source of electricity?)

What are the equivalent number of gallons of gasoline that are produced per day in that particular facility (without any outside source of electricity?)

What is the cost to produce the hydrogen for each equivalent gallon of gasoline? (Cost to include amortization of capital cost and O&M over some realistic lifetime.)

Then maybe I could get more interested.

[oldhippie]

4. Anyone? Does anyone have any numbers?

I'd really like to see any of the numbers mentioned. I have looked at all the linked articles and other sources, and there is a distinct lack of any numbers, only generalities.

As an engineer, I would really like to understand the efficiencies in this process. When these types of articles almost seem to deliberately avoid any way to compare costs it implies to me that they are not practical. But even if not practical now, I'd like to see the basis of the calculations so I can see how far there is to go and when it might become cost effective compared to other processes.

I could start doing a lot of assumptions based on the pictures as to the solar PV generating capacity of the pictured facility by assuming location, orientation, size of the panels, etc., but I would rather have real numbers.

Does anyone have a rule of thumb for how many kWHr of electricity is required to produce a given amount of hydrogen (in any convenient unit) in this type of electrolyzer? I can find theoretical numbers, but not finding anything real world. Has anyone here done this already? Can anyone help me out?

[caraher]

5. Don't hold your breath

We've been treated to a steady stream of hydrogen hype articles like that one... all long on razzle-dazzle and short on hard numbers. My own questions about the system efficiency of PV --> hydrogen --> anything useful vs. just using the electricity from PV have been met with sound of crickets, and the information I've found suggests using hydrogen as an energy carrier doesn't make sense for applications where overall energy efficiency is the chief desideratum.

[oldhippie]

6. I won't, and you are right ...

I just did a little back of the envelope scratching. Scaling from the picture of the Honda station in the OP I am assuming each of those canopies is about 18' X 36' and with a typical solar panel efficiency get about 7.7 kW DC per canopy or 23.1 kW DC for all three. Looking at PVWatts2 for the LA area and flat orientation it looks like about 81 kWHr AC/day average over the year. (The array produces DC, which can probably be used in the electrolyzers, but I would guess it would be better to invert to AC first to allow further processing before the electrolyzers and for other Balance of Plant (BOP) equipment.)

So the array shown in the picture will produce an average of 81 kWHr/day. At $0.12/kWHr cost of electricity that is about $9.72 worth of electricity per day.

I just read on Wiki that the Gallon of Gasoline Equivalent (gge) is 33.41 kWHr/gal of gasoline. So the 81 kWHr of energy produced by the array in the picture could at most, with a 100% efficient process, produce an equivalent energy of 2.42 gal of gasoline. Now, I would like to know the efficiency of the process of kWHr => hydrogen gas and compression. I haven't found that figure yet, but it HAS to result in significantly less that the equivalent of 2 gallons of gasoline.

My point being that the picture sure looks spiffy, and the multiple bays makes it look like you pull up in your fuel cell car and fuel up with a bunch of hydrogen produced by those solar panels on the canopies. Sounds great, but the reality is that those solar panels can make at the most the amount of hydrogen that would be equivalent of about 2 gallons of gasoline each day. You would have to run that system all day to give one vehicle enough fuel for a day's commute. That just doesn't cut it. LOTS more electricity has to come from somewhere else (nuke plant?) to produce enough electricity to make that fueling station practical.

Oh, and that's not even looking at the capital and O&M costs of building and operating.

I made a bunch of engineering assumptions here. I would like to see some real world numbers. But as for now, that hydrogen fueling station is a pretty conceptual picture, but it's not practical any time in the near future.

Still looking for real numbers from the proponents.

[nationalize the fed]

7. Boatloads of "real numbers" are available

in this book: Solar Hydrogen-Fuel of the Future
http://www.amazon.com/Solar-Hydrogen-Future-Mario-Pagliaro/dp/1849731950/


Just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Chapter 2.4 Economics of Water Electrolysis

A detailed cost analysis, performed in 2004, of the domestic production of hydrogen using a photovoltaic-electrolyzer system showed that, for a 1kWp photovoltaic system with fixed modules, depending on the annual solar radiation on a horizontal surface HT, the cost of hydrogen varies from 3.5 to 38 $ kg1 with a corresponding energy cost from 26 to 268 $ GJ1. Specifically, the hydrogen energy costs CHM (in $ kg1 H2) and CHE (in $ GJ1 H2) are correlated empirically with the price of the PV plant and of the electrolyzer, expressed in $ per Wp, (PPV and PEL, respectively) according to the following equations: (in book- the math doesn't convert to UTF-8)

In 2004, the price of energy for gasoline engine powered vehicles was
about (0.5 $ L1)/(0.73 kgL10.046 GJ kg1)E15 $ GJ1. Hence, even
considering that a fuel cell powered vehicle is more efficient than a
gasoline engine powered vehicle, Bilgen concluded that, for solar
hydrogen: The lower end price of about 25 $/GJ may just be competitive in
heavily subsidized situations. Otherwise it is clear that as expected,
with the present photovoltaic and electrolyzer price structure,
domestic produced hydrogen will not be competitive with the fossil
fuel derived gasoline or similar fuels. Seven years later, however, the price of gasoline in Northern America in 2010 was 0.76 $ L i.e. 22.63 $GJ, whereas the photovoltaic- electrolyzer system price is about 10 times lower than in 2004.

Using the Hydrogen Analysis (H2A) tool, a standard methodology
developed by the US Department of Energy (DOE) to estimate hydrogen
production costs, in 2006, scientists at the US National Renewable
Energy Laboratory reached the conclusion that in order to meet the
DOE’s cost target for hydrogen at 2.00–3.00 $ kg, electrolyzers with
2006 efficiencies would need to have access to electricity prices lower
than 0.045–0.055 $kWh (Figure 2.16).32

According to the state of the art technology of 2006 electrolyzers,
ideal systems would need to have access to electricity prices lower than
$0.075kWh, representing the highest possible electricity price in 2006
that low-temperature electrolyzers would be able to use to produce
hydrogen at $3.00 kg...Much Much More in the book

References:
1. C. Russell, Chem.World, August 2003. http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2003/August/electrolysis.asp (last accessed on 04/01/2012).
2. C. R. Nave, Electrolysis of water, HyperPhysics, Georgia State
University, Department of Physics and Astronomy, http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/electrol.html (last accessed on 04/01/2012).
3. F. T. Bacon, Electrochim. Acta, 1969, 14, 569.
4. E. Guerrini and S. Trasatti, in Catalysis for Sustainable Energy
Production, ed. C. Bianchini and P. Barbaro, Wiley-VCH, Weinheim,
2009, p. 235.
5. J. Divisek, J. Mergel and H. Schmitz, Int. J. Hydrogen Ener., 1990,
15, 105.
6. C. Neagu, H. Jansen, H. Gardeniers and M. Elwenspoek, Mechatronics,
2000, 10, 571.
7. H. Wendt, in Hydrogen as an Energy Carrier – technologies, systems,
economy, ed. C.-J.Winter and J. Nitsch, Springer, Berlin, 1988, p. 166.
8. E. Zoulias, E. Varkaraki, N. Lymberopoulos, C. N. Christodoulou
and G. N. Karagiorgis, A Review on Water Electrolysis, http://www.cres.gr/kape/publications/papers/dimosieyseis/ydrogen/A%20REVIEW%20ON%20WATER%20ELECTROLYSIS.pdf (last
accessed on 04/01/2012).
9. P. Heidebrecht and K. Sundmacher, in Renewable Resources and
Renewable Energy: A Global Challenge, ed. P. Fornasiero and
M. Graziani, CRC Press, Boca Raton, FL, 2nd edn, 2011.
10. I. C. Man, H.-Y. Su, F. Calle-Vallejo, H. A. Hansen, J. I. Martı´nez,
N. G. Inoglu, J. Kitchin, T. F. Jaramillo, J. K. Nørskov and
J. Rossmeisl, ChemCatChem, 2011, 3, 1159.
11. C. Graves, S. D. Ebbesen, M. Mogensen and K. S. Lackner, Renew.
Sust. Energy Rev., 2011, 15, 1.
12. H. Wendt and G. Kreisa, Electrochemical Engineering, Springer,
Berlin, 1999.
13. R. Gammon, A. Roy, J. Barton and M. Little, Hydrogen Renewables
and Integration (HARI), case study report for the International
Energy Agency, March 2006, http://ieahia.org/pdfs/HARI.pdf (last accessed on 04/02/2012).
14. J. Ivy, Summary of electrolytic hydrogen production: milestone
completion report, National Renewable Energy Laboratory, MP-
560-35948. 28, 2004.
15. A. Konopka and D. Gregory, Hydrogen production by electrolysis:
present and future, 10th Intersociety Energy Conversion Engineering
Conference, IEEE Cat. No. 75CHO 983-7 TAB, 1975.
16. Schatz Energy Research Center, Humboldt State University,
Development of a PEM Electrolyzer: Enabling Seasonal Storage
of Renewable Energy, California Energy Commission Energy
Innovations Small Grant Program, 2005. http://www.energy.ca.gov/2005publications/CEC-500-2005-085/CEC-500-2005-085.PDF (last
accessed on 04/01/2012).
17. P. Millet, N. Mbemba, S.A. Grigoriev, V.N. Fateev, A. Aukauloo
and C. EtiE` vant, Int. J. Hydrogen Energy, 2011, 36, 4134.
18. W. Hug, H. Bussmann and A. Brinner, Int. J. Hydrogen Energy,
1993, 18, 973.
19. R. E. Clarke, S. Giddey, F. T. Ciacchi, S. P. S. Badwal, B. Paul and
J. Andrews, Int. J. Hydrogen Energy, 2009, 34, 2531.
20. A. Djafoura, M. Matouga, H. Bourasa, B. Bouchekimaa, M. S.
Aidab and B. Azoui, Int. J. Hydrogen Energy, 2011, 36, 4117.
21. B. Paul and J. Andrews, Int. J. Hydrogen Energy, 2008, 33, 490.
22. R. Garcı´a-Valverde, N. Espinosa and A. Urbina, Int. J. Hydrogen
Energy, 2011, 36, 10574.
23. G. E. Ahmad and E. T. El Shenawy, Renewable Energy, 2006, 31, 1043.
24. A. Yilanci, I. Dincer and H. K. Ozturk, Prog. Energy Combust. Sci.,
2008, 35, 231.
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26. T. L. Gibson and N.A. Kelly, Int. J. Hydrogen Energy, 2010, 35,
900.
27. N. Armaroli and V. Balzani, Energy Environ. Sci., 2011, 4, 3193.
28. M. S ˇ u´ ri, T. A. Huld, E. D. Dunlop and H. A. Ossenbrink, Sol.
Energy, 2007, 81, 1295.
29. E. Bilgen, Sol. Energy, 2004, 77, 47.
30. http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EP.PMP.SGAS.CD

How many of those references have you looked at?

[oldhippie]

8. I don't have that book

And I am not going to spend $121 to get it.

But I will look at your except tomorrow and see if I can glean the number I am looking for, which is how many kWHr of electricity are required to produce one gallon equivalent of gasoline. Or, how many kWHr to produce enough hydrogen to power a FCEV for one mile.

You wouldn't happen to have those handy, would you?

[nationalize the fed]

9. Some figures

how many kWHr of electricity are required to produce one gallon equivalent of gasoline.

One kilogram of hydrogen contains approximately the same energy as one gallon of gasoline (MPKG instead of MPG)

From Hydrogen production from renewables
01 January 2009 Dale Gardner

A 100% efficient electrolyser requires 39 kWh of electricity to produce 1 kg of hydrogen. The devices today require as much as 48 kWh/kg. So, if electricity costs are 0.05 US$/kWh, the power cost for the electrolysis process alone is 2.40 US$/kg of hydrogen. (NB: In the USA, average residential electricity cost is approximately 0.10 US$/kWh and industrial 0.06 US$/kWh). Capital costs for an electrolysis facility can be a huge factor, and for smaller installations can actually become the predominant cost factor...

...The worldwide electricity production potential from renewables is staggering. If addressed and utilised aggressively, there is sufficient resource to support not only large inputs to the electrical grids across the planet, but also significant hydrogen production. As an example, by itself the available wind power resource in the USA is estimated to be more than 2,800 GW (today, total US electricity generation capacity is roughly 1,100 GW), enough to produce over 150 billion kg/year of hydrogen, which exceeds the US gasoline quantity consumed annually in terms of energy equivalency.
http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/view/3157/hydrogen-production-from-renewables/

Figure 2: US Renewable hydrogen potential relative to gasoline consumption by county

Is there enough?

Can renewables really produce enough hydrogen to make a difference? Figure 2 answers this question for the USA, providing a county-by-county indication of the hydrogen potential from solar, wind, and biomass – compared to gasoline consumption in the US alone.

Only those in blue could produce less hydrogen than their equivalent gasoline use, and those in green approach the capability of 1,000 times more hydrogen than their own needs. The few counties that fall short are typically surrounded by others with an abundance. Even though the US has a significant renewable resource, a global analyses might be expected to provide similar results.
http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/view/3157/hydrogen-production-from-renewables/

******
Consider also that there are yet to be discovered ways of producing or augmenting the production of hydrogen such as:

Forget gas, batteries — pee is new power source
Scientists can create cheap hydrogen from urine for use in fuel cells
By Eric Bland 7/8/2009

Urine-powered cars, homes and personal electronic devices could be available in six months with new technology developed by scientists from Ohio University.

Using a nickel-based electrode, the scientists can create large amounts of cheap hydrogen from urine that could be burned or used in fuel cells. "One cow can provide enough energy to supply hot water for 19 houses," said Gerardine Botte, a professor at Ohio University developing the technology. "Soldiers in the field could carry their own fuel."

Pee power is based on hydrogen, the most common element in the universe but one that has resisted efforts to produce, store, transport and use economically...
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/31805166/ns/technology_and_science-innovation/

********

Hydrogen Production from Sodium Silicide Powder; Prospects for On-Board Generation
14 July 2006

SiGNa Chem has developed a promising method for using highly reactive alkali metals to produce different types of strong reducing agents and convenient sources for hydrogen. The latter application could provide an on-board mechanism for hydrogen storage and production for vehicles....
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/07/hydrogen_produc.html

Hope that helps.

5.caraher Don't hold your breath

We've been treated to a steady stream of hydrogen hype articles like that one... all long on razzle-dazzle and short on hard numbers. My own questions about the system efficiency of PV --> hydrogen --> anything useful vs. just using the electricity from PV have been met with sound of crickets, and the information I've found suggests using hydrogen as an energy carrier doesn't make sense for applications where overall energy efficiency is the chief desideratum.

I won't hold my breath for anyone to acknowledge that not only do the figures exist, they are relatively easy to find, and increasingly favor renewable hydrogen production. How long do you expect gasoline to remain at $4.00/gal?

Twenty Hydrogen Myths by noted environmentalist Amory Lovins
http://www.rmi.org/Knowledge-Center/Library/E03-05_TwentyHydrogenMyths

Hydrogen Trivia: There are ~22 LITRES of hydrogen in ONE TABLESPOON of water

[nationalize the fed]

10. UK researchers today announced what they believe to be a game changer in the use of hydrogen as a

"green" fuel.

Jun 24, Chemistry/Materials Science



A new discovery by scientists at the UK's Science and Technology Facilities Council (STFC), offers a viable solution to the challenges of storage and cost by using ammonia as a clean and secure hydrogen-containing energy source to produce hydrogen on-demand in situ.

Hydrogen is considered by many to be the best alternative fuel for automotive purposes but there are complications with its safe and efficient storage and very significant concerns surrounding the costs of a hydrogen infrastructure for transportation. This new discovery may well have found the answers to both these challenges.

When the components of ammonia are separated (a technique known as cracking) they form one part nitrogen and three parts hydrogen. Many catalysts can effectively crack ammonia to release the hydrogen, but the best ones are very expensive precious metals. This new method is different and involves two simultaneous chemical processes rather than using a catalyst, and can achieve the same result at a fraction of the cost.

Ammonia can be stored on-board in vehicles at low pressures in conformable plastic tanks. Meanwhile on the forecourts, the infrastructure technology for ammonia is as straightforward as that for liquid petroleum gas (LPG)...more
http://phys.org/news/2014-06-hydrogen-breakthrough-game-changer-future-car.html

[nationalize the fed]

11. Cost of hydrogen from different sources

Greg Blencoe on November 9, 2009

...There are a large number of factors that will affect the cost of hydrogen.

Miles per kilogram of hydrogen

Before estimating the cost of hydrogen per kilogram from various sources, the benefits of a kilogram of hydrogen need to be shown. How does a kilogram of hydrogen used in a fuel cell vehicle compare with a gallon of gasoline used in an internal combustion engine vehicle?

The Toyota FCHV-adv hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (mid-size SUV) is basically a Toyota Highlander Hybrid with a fuel cell. The Toyota FCHV-adv recently achieved 68.3 miles per kilogram in a real-world test with the Department of Energy. On the other hand, the Toyota Highlander Hybrid gets an EPA-rated 26 miles per gallon.

The Toyota fuel cell vehicle is 2.63 times as efficient as the gasoline version. Furthermore, a rule of thumb is that fuel cells are 2-3 times as efficient as internal combustion engines. Therefore, a reasonable figure to use is 2.5 times as efficient. This means the cost estimates below need to be divided by 2.5 to get the equivalent cost of a gallon of gasoline (i.e. $4 to $12 per kilogram of hydrogen is equivalent to gasoline at $1.60 to $4.80 per gallon)...

Since a kilogram of hydrogen in a fuel cell will power a vehicle approximately 2.5 times as far as a gallon of gasoline in an internal combustion engine, the current average for gasoline taxes has been multiplied by 2.5 to get a figure of $1.25 per kilogram of hydrogen for taxes. With all of this in mind, here are the cost estimates per kilogram (which each include $1.25 for taxes):

Hydrogen from natural gas (produced via steam reforming at fueling station)
$4 – $5 per kilogram of hydrogen

...Hydrogen from solar (via electrolysis) (NTF: IN 2009- How much has the price of solar dropped since then?)
$10 – $12 per kilogram of hydrogen
http://www.h2carblog.com/?p=461

(Note: Solar and electrolysers are cheaper now)

[caraher]

12. Once again you respond with an avalanche of irrelevancies

Yes, hydrogen has a lot of energy per kg, water is everywhere, etc. And gas will not be $4/gallon forever. But neither of us is making a challenge based on cheap gas or any of these random factoids about hydrogen.

It boils down to questions like this: given that we've created X kWh of electricity with PV cells, what's the most energy efficient way to turn that into transportation energy? I've posted elsewhere that from my reading, the two steps required to store the electrical energy in hydrogen chemical form appear to be, at the very best, 70% efficient each for an aggregate efficiency of around 50%, and with more realistic numbers much lower than that. Batteries, today, vastly outperform this.

Don't mistake sheer volume of posts, links and references with actually addressing the concerns raised.

I'm not reflexively anti-hydrogen - I think there will develop niche uses, some very significant. But the fact is that today hydrogen is mostly produced from the same hydrocarbons we need to stop burning, and none of the glitzy stuff you habitually post suggest any serious environmental advantage over applying off-the-shelf EV technologies in decarbonizing transport.

[nationalize the fed]

14. It's a shame more people

aren't excited about hydrogen tech.

I've been waiting a long time for a green energy solution and it's here now, and most people either haven't a clue or don't really care. Par for the course-- the current flock of Americans are some of the most spoiled, pompous, ignorant, arrogant, gullible, unimaginative little bunch of programmed robots the world has ever seen. It's embarrassing to be lumped in with this group of fools, frankly. Can't help where you're born, right?

Both the R's and the D's have sat on their fat privileged asses while oil and existing energy sources have sucked the country dry. We've waged war for oil and overthrown foreign governments for it- without doing a DAMN THING about actually becoming ENERGY INDEPENDENT since the oil shocks of the '70s. It's pathetic. The US could have BEEN energy independent long ago but for whatever reason (Petrodollar- Thanks, Nixon) it didn't even try.

Here's a solution. It works. It is available NOW. Hydrogen is amazing, and before the likes of you scoff at that you should do a little research. Now we're told that fracking is the new sliced bread, while water from people's faucets catches fire and the land is raped. Now the US is trying to "help" frack Ukraine while Biden's spoiled kid is installed as a director of one of "Ukraine’s largest independent gas producers".



Hydrogen makes fracking obsolete. Not one more hole needs to be drilled and filled with chemicals.

Batteries, today, vastly outperform this

ROFL maybe in your imagination. If anyone needed any more proof of your ignorance of the whole matter here it is.

Don't mistake sheer volume of posts, links and references with actually addressing the concerns raised.

But the fact is that today hydrogen is mostly produced from the same hydrocarbons we need to stop burning, and none of the glitzy stuff you habitually post suggest any serious environmental advantage over applying off-the-shelf EV technologies in decarbonizing transport.

First of all, EV's in the end are mostly COAL BURNING CARS. Sure some people charge their EV's with solar from their panels but that's not usually the case. Secondly, apparently you haven't understood even a single one of the articles I've posted about HYDROGEN FROM RENEWABLE SOURCES. What The F*CK is SO Hard to Get about that CONCEPT: HYDROGEN FROM RENEWABLE SOURCES!!!

Once you inform yourself by actually reading some relevant material you might be worth debating. Right now you're just another uninformed American-part of the problem, not the solution and it's a waste of time trying to reason with someone that can't or won't try to understand the relevant concepts. I've had more than enough of that, so you're ignored. Have fun. It's election season and the frauds and sellouts that have led this country to the edge of the cliff need re-election. Get busy.

[oldhippie]

15. Costs too much now ...

What The F*CK is SO Hard to Get about that CONCEPT: HYDROGEN FROM RENEWABLE SOURCES!!!

When costs become competitive, it will get more interest. Someday, it will.

BTW, do you have a link for a commercially available electrolyzer, around the 10kW input range, that I can purchase now to build my own PV=> H2 production system? I would like to look at designing a home system but would have to buy an electrolyzer. Any available for home use and purchase?

[oldhippie]

13. Thanks, that was one of the numbers ...

I was looking for.

After your cite last night I went to Amazon and actually found a textbook I could download to my iPad for a free trial period. (I am not curious enough to spend $120+.) Also found a couple of other reasonably priced books on hydrogen fuel vehicles I bought and downloaded to my Kindle. So now I have some reading to keep me busy today. I hope to glean a lot of numbers. That's what engineers do.

Forget gas, batteries — pee is new power source
Scientists can create cheap hydrogen from urine for use in fuel cells
By Eric Bland 7/8/2009

Urine-powered cars, homes and personal electronic devices could be available in six months with new technology developed by scientists from Ohio University.

So what happened to that idea? It's been five years, not six months.