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OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 01:06 AM Oct 2014

Why Solar Is Much More Costly Than Wind or Hydro

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/531841/why-solar-is-much-more-costly-than-wind-or-hydro/
[font face=Serif][font size=5]Why Solar Is Much More Costly Than Wind or Hydro[/font]

[font size=4]A new report from the E.U. estimates the true economic cost of different forms of energy production.[/font]

By Mike Orcutt on October 22, 2014

[font size=3]It’s no surprise that if environmental costs are considered, renewables—particularly wind power—are a far better bargain than coal power. But it might surprise many that according to a new such analysis, solar power lags far behind wind and even hydroelectric power in its economic impact, at least in the European Union.

Energy costs are rarely viewed through this lens, though it is more common in Europe than in the U.S. and other parts of the world. The study, commissioned by the E.U. and conducted by Ecofys, a renewable energy consultancy, considered the economic costs of climate change, pollution, and resource depletion as well as the current capital and operating costs of the power plants.

The authors assessed the cost of generating electricity and any resulting environmental damage. They used a measure known as the “levelized cost,” the estimated cost per megawatt-hour, without subsidies, of building and operating a given plant in a given region over an assumed lifetime. The authors referred to established models and academic literature to find monetary values for pollution, land use, and resource depletion. And to account for climate change, they assumed a metric ton of emitted carbon dioxide costs around €43 ($55).

...

Surprisingly, solar power fared poorly in the analysis, costing far more than wind power and nearly the same as nuclear power. The reason, says Gardiner, is that many of world’s solar panels are manufactured in China, where electricity is very carbon-intensive. The depletion of metal resources also represents a larger cost for solar than wind, she says. Gardiner notes, however, that solar technology is still improving and may be more cost-effective today than it was in 2012, the year used for the study.

...[/font][/font]
35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Why Solar Is Much More Costly Than Wind or Hydro (Original Post) OKIsItJustMe Oct 2014 OP
well then build the panels locally rafeh1 Oct 2014 #1
Too many people out here to live on lizards and cactus Warpy Oct 2014 #3
That's not true in some parts of the US Warpy Oct 2014 #2
I am honestly surprised that SheilaT Oct 2014 #4
We should bloody well fight against that if they try. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2014 #27
If it happens, it will be through SheilaT Oct 2014 #30
IMO these arguments all hinge on Who is doing the accounting Demeter Oct 2014 #5
Speaking of suicide GliderGuider Oct 2014 #6
1,000!? OKIsItJustMe Oct 2014 #7
It depends on what you want "sustainable" to mean. GliderGuider Oct 2014 #11
Somehow, citing yourself seems less authoritative… (I assume that you generally agree with yourself) OKIsItJustMe Oct 2014 #12
You are under no compulsion to believe me. GliderGuider Oct 2014 #13
I believe… OKIsItJustMe Oct 2014 #18
That is true. GliderGuider Oct 2014 #20
It's an interesting position but it's quite an extreme one OKIsItJustMe Oct 2014 #25
Yes, it is. GliderGuider Oct 2014 #29
Your analysis has serious flaws OKIsItJustMe Oct 2014 #32
In my opinion, any use of technology promotes overshoot. GliderGuider Oct 2014 #33
GliderGuider, I don't find any experts in these fields who quote you. I did look, though. Hortensis Oct 2014 #34
You didn't find ANY experts quoting the opinion of someone posting on a political blog? GliderGuider Oct 2014 #35
Thank you! Demeter Oct 2014 #15
You’re welcome! OKIsItJustMe Oct 2014 #19
Wouldn't it be better to assay the arguments than to attack the messenger? immoderate Oct 2014 #28
The pre-Columbian Native American population was in the tens of millions, though NickB79 Oct 2014 #23
But were their activities sustainable? By what definition? (edited) GliderGuider Oct 2014 #24
Here's another way to approach the topic GliderGuider Oct 2014 #31
This is decidedly not an anti-renewable argument OKIsItJustMe Oct 2014 #8
For fossil fuels, how did they calculate the cost of destroying the planet? CaptainTruth Oct 2014 #9
Did you actualy read the OP OKIsItJustMe Oct 2014 #10
They're green because that's how we define them The2ndWheel Oct 2014 #14
We harness the sun through technology to sustain our technology Demeter Oct 2014 #16
It would be great if all it came down to was what we did with it and how The2ndWheel Oct 2014 #21
They're trying to hit a fast-moving target, bless their hearts cprise Oct 2014 #17
I'm with the Vulcan Demeter Oct 2014 #22
So solar is more expensive...because the power used to make solar Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2014 #26

rafeh1

(385 posts)
1. well then build the panels locally
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 01:13 AM
Oct 2014

eat local grow local
buy local produce local.

Every dollar that is spent locally circulates and enriches us and our neighbors.

Warpy

(111,241 posts)
3. Too many people out here to live on lizards and cactus
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 02:40 AM
Oct 2014

So thanks very much, but we'll still have to import food.

We export a lot of other stuff to make up for it.

Warpy

(111,241 posts)
2. That's not true in some parts of the US
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 02:39 AM
Oct 2014

Yes, we should be manufacturing the panels here, where there are clean energy sources. However, corporate types only want to cut labor costs as they increase greenhouse gases in manufacture and transportation. They are incredibly myopic.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
4. I am honestly surprised that
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 02:49 AM
Oct 2014

there has not been some sort of claim on solar rights, so that solar companies can simply put solar panels on your roof or in your yrad and you have no recourse.

I live in the southwest, where it is common to own your land but not the mineral rights below. I cannot believe that someone has not already tied up the air/solar rights above your land, in the same way.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
27. We should bloody well fight against that if they try.
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 06:51 PM
Oct 2014

That's right out of a Simpsons episode, in which Mr Burns tries to block the entire city of Springfield from the sun for profit.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
30. If it happens, it will be through
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 08:08 PM
Oct 2014

sneak legislation of some kind, passed by state legislatures, with almost no one knowing what's going on.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
5. IMO these arguments all hinge on Who is doing the accounting
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 06:02 AM
Oct 2014

and what they are counting, and what they are neglecting to factor in.

I would install all renewable sources that have a net positive output, and not quibble about "external, uncounted costs".

These anti-renewable arguments (and each type has them) sound as stupid and Politically Correct as those who go adopt weird or "fashionable" diets and because they want to spite this, that or the other: producer, consumer, dietician, medical theory; or Live Forever, or be one-up on their omnivorous family or acquaintances, or buy into some fad...I think it is a sign of mental illness, or a personality disorder.

If you carry political correctness to its logical conclusion, the only 100% acceptable thing to do is suicide!

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
6. Speaking of suicide
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 07:18 AM
Oct 2014

Given that there are now about 1000 times too many humans on the planet for long-term sustainability, we have already committed suicide. We just haven't fallen down yet.

All the quibbling about energy sources is just about moot at this point.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
11. It depends on what you want "sustainable" to mean.
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 09:56 AM
Oct 2014

Here's the source for my number:

http://www.paulchefurka.ca/Sustainability.html

In that article I assessed seven different ways of deciding what the sustainable number of humans might be. My conclusion was this:

The Ecological Footprint doesn't really seem intended as a measure of sustainability. Its main value is to give people with no exposure to ecology some sense that we are indeed over-exploiting our planet. (It also has the psychological advantage of feeling achievable with just a little work.) As a measure of sustainability, it is not helpful.

As I said above, the number suggested by the Thermodynamic Footprint or Fossil Fuel analysis isn't very helpful either – even a population of one billion people without fossil fuels had already gone into overshoot.

That leaves us with four estimates: two at 35 million, one of 10 million, and one of 7 million.

The central number of 35 million people is confirmed by two analyses using different data and assumptions. My conclusion is that this is probably the absolutely largest human population that could be considered sustainable. The realistic but similarly unachievable number is probably more in line with the bottom two estimates, somewhere below 10 million.

I think the lowest two estimates (Fowler 2008, and Fowler 2009) are as unrealistically high as all the others in this case, primarily because human intelligence and problem-solving ability makes our destructive impact on biodiversity a foregone conclusion. After all, we drove other species to extinction 40,000 years ago, when our total population was estimated to be under 1 million.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
12. Somehow, citing yourself seems less authoritative… (I assume that you generally agree with yourself)
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 10:03 AM
Oct 2014
Dr. Benjamin Franklin: Treason is a charge invented by winners as an excuse for hanging the losers.

John Adams: [scoffs] I have more to do than stand here listening to you quote yourself.

Dr. Benjamin Franklin: No, that was a new one.


If you said twice as many, or maybe even ten times, I would swallow, but 1,000 seems over-the-proverbial-top.
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
13. You are under no compulsion to believe me.
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 10:07 AM
Oct 2014

I was just making it clear that this number wasn't a thoughtless rectal pluck, and linking to the evidence and logic I used to come to this conclusion.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
25. It's an interesting position but it's quite an extreme one
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 06:44 PM
Oct 2014
http://na.unep.net/geas/archive/pdfs/GEAS_Jun_12_Carrying_Capacity.pdf


Speculation about the ultimate carrying capacity of the planet dates back at least to the 17th century. Dutch scientist Antoni van Leeuwenhoek (1632-1723) estimated that if the population of Holland in his day (one million people) were extrapolated across the estimated area
of inhabitable land around the globe, it would equal 13 billion people. Since then many more estimates have been made as to how many people the Earth could support. The range of these estimates is enormous, and rather than converging toward a narrower range over time, they have if anything, become more wide ranging in recent decades. A study looking at 94 different estimates of the upper bounds of Earth’s population found estimates ranging from a low of 500 000 000 to a high of 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000.



Your estimate is lower than the “low” estimate by (roughly) 50 fold.
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
29. Yes, it is.
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 07:41 PM
Oct 2014

How do you define the relationship between sustainability and carrying capacity? what are the time periods and activity levels associated with each? these are the questions that drove me to my low estimate (which I would say is 7 to 35 million humans living at H-G levels of activity, for some approximation of perpetuity).

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
32. Your analysis has serious flaws
Thu Oct 23, 2014, 10:22 AM
Oct 2014

For example:



It’s tempting (largely because it seems vaguely achievable), but unfortunately that number may still be too high. Even in 1800 the signs of human overshoot were clear, if not well recognized: there was already widespread deforestation through Europe and the Middle East; and desertification had set into the previously lush agricultural zones of North Africa and the Middle East.



OK, so why was there “widespread deforestation through Europe and the Middle East?”

I know rolling hills covered with forests that in the 1800's were stripped bare. What happened? How have the forests grown back in spite of our orders of magnitude “overshoot?”



A typical population density for a non-energy-assisted society of hunter-forager-gardeners is between 1 person per square mile and 1 person per square kilometer. Because humans living this way had settled the entire planet by the time agriculture was invented 10,000 years ago, this number pegs a reasonable upper boundary for a sustainable world population in the range of 20 to 50 million people.



We would not be a “non-energy-assisted society of hunter-forager-gardeners.” We have the potential to generate comparable amounts of energy, to that currently used, but without comparable environmental devastation.



Consequently it makes sense to compare our species’ performance to that of other, similar species – species that we know for sure are sustainable. …


Of course those species are “non-energy-assisted.” In fact they have very little use of tools, let alone what we would call “technology” or “science.” (Surely, these give us a bit of an edge.)

All living things affect their environments. To date, we have had a disproportionately detrimental effect. However, we have learned a great deal in a relatively short period of time, and proven that we can have positive effects on our environment. (The Cuyahoga hasn’t caught fire recently. Whale populations are recovering…)

Your conclusions are based on a creature which is no more capable than a “naked ape.”
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
33. In my opinion, any use of technology promotes overshoot.
Thu Oct 23, 2014, 10:56 AM
Oct 2014

Yes technology gives us a major "edge". Given our ecological situation today that is a big part of the problem, not an advantage.

On edit: The forests grew back because we stopped burning trees for thermal energy. We switched to fossil fuels, and accelerated our growth even more. We traded deforestation for global warming.

We are in fact naked apes - with 100,000 years' experience in ravaging the planet.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
35. You didn't find ANY experts quoting the opinion of someone posting on a political blog?
Sun Oct 26, 2014, 01:00 PM
Oct 2014

I'm stunned! Where did they all go?

 

immoderate

(20,885 posts)
28. Wouldn't it be better to assay the arguments than to attack the messenger?
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 07:23 PM
Oct 2014

I mean, does it matter who he quotes if the arguments are rational?

--imm

NickB79

(19,233 posts)
23. The pre-Columbian Native American population was in the tens of millions, though
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 04:30 PM
Oct 2014
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_the_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas

Given the fragmentary nature of the evidence, even semi-accurate pre-Columbian population figures are impossible to obtain. Scholars have varied widely on the estimated size of the indigenous populations prior to colonization and on the effects of European contact.[3] Estimates are made by extrapolations from small bits of data. In 1976, geographer William Denevan used the existing estimates to derive a "consensus count" of about 54 million people. Nonetheless, more recent estimates still range widely.[4]


Granted, most people don't realize that many Native Americans WERE experienced farmers, only on a permaculture level instead of a field level, using controlled burns to create grazing land for "livestock" and open woodlands for production of acorn and chestnut "crops". But they did this with no plows, no metal implements, no hybrid crops, etc.

Anyway, if the Americans could support a population of 35-50 million in a pre-Industrial setting, I can't imagine the global carrying capacity is somehow below this now, even with the environmental degradation we've already caused
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
24. But were their activities sustainable? By what definition? (edited)
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 04:39 PM
Oct 2014

The Earth's current carrying capacity is obviously 7.3 billion people (at least in the short term), because that's how many of us it's carrying at the moment. But is that sustainable? It took me a while to realize that carrying capacity and sustainability are very different, though related, ideas. I still mix the terms up sometimes.

In my article I say this:

There are about 150 million square kilometers, or 60 million square miles of land on Planet Earth. However, two thirds of that area is covered by snow, mountains or deserts, or has little or no topsoil. This leaves about 50 million square kilometers (20 million square miles) that is habitable by humans without high levels of technology.

A typical population density for a non-energy-assisted society of hunter-forager-gardeners is between 1 person per square mile and 1 person per square kilometer. Because humans living this way had settled the entire planet by the time agriculture was invented 10,000 years ago, this number pegs a reasonable upper boundary for a sustainable world population in the range of 20 to 50 million people.


The total land area of North America is 18 million square kilometers, with about 10 million sq. km being habitable. That implies a population density of about 5 per square kilometer. from what I understand of H-G societies, that's a fairly high number. Extrapolating that to the world, we would get a population of ~250 million. That may be more palatable than 7 million. But the question remains - for how long is such a population density sustainable, even in the absence of fossil-fuel and draft animal technologies? Perhaps a good answer is "long enough".

But it's really a moot point - 250 million is as unreachable from here as 7 million.
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
31. Here's another way to approach the topic
Thu Oct 23, 2014, 07:07 AM
Oct 2014

The planet's "natural" carrying capacity for terrestrial vertebrate life is probably in the neighbourhood of 200 million tonnes. This represents the carrying capacity based on solar input only, with no assistance from human technology or fossil fuels. The estimate is derived from Vaclav Smil's biomass estimate for 1900 shown on the graph, which has been reduced by about 30% to account for technology and coal use by that time. The assumption is that by 10,000 BCE this biomass of 200 MT was fully utilizing the available solar flux.

The next question is what proportion of this biomass can be devoted to humans and their domesticated animals without excessive damage to the rest of the biosphere? This is hard to answer without a controlled experiment, but here's one approach.

Begin with the human population in Year 1 AD - about 250 million people - as a baseline. At 50 kg/person that number represents about 12.5 MT of biomass. Domesticated animal biomass in 1900 was about three times that of humans, so that would give us an additional 37.5 MT of domesticated animals, for a total human-related animal biomass of 50 MT. This number represents a quarter of the estimated natural carrying capacity of the planet. That degree of appropriation is probably not completely sustainable, but would likely be OK for a few thousand years, provided there was no further human expansion beyond that number.

Based on this set of assumptions we are currently overpopulated by between 25 and 30 times. and this is without the use of any technology beyond what was available when Christ was born. This assumes that any use of technology promotes overshoot.

This scenario says nothing about what's going to happen given our current circumstances. In fact, might as well come from a different universe, it's so utterly unachievable in this one. It simply represents a way of thinking about life on the planet in such a way that the current situation is placed into a more holistic perspective.

Unfortunately, it also becomes clear that no matter how you slice it or dice it, the human presence on the planet can not be considered even remotely sustainable. And that implies that a correction in our numbers and activity levels is inevitable. The longer we proceed down the current road of technological, energetic and numerical expansion, the closer we come to that correction.


http://vaclavsmil.com/wp-content/uploads/PDR37-4.Smil_.pgs613-636.pdf

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
8. This is decidedly not an anti-renewable argument
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 09:19 AM
Oct 2014

The first sentence reads, “It’s no surprise that if environmental costs are considered, renewables—particularly wind power—are a far better bargain than coal power. …”

CaptainTruth

(6,586 posts)
9. For fossil fuels, how did they calculate the cost of destroying the planet?
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 09:39 AM
Oct 2014

What dollar figure do they place on ruining the environment that supports human life, & the suffering it causes? Did they include the cost of colonizing another planet when this one is no longer habitable, thanks to fossil fuels?

It seems very anti-solar (how is this group funded?) & it fails to take all costs into effect. For example, if the planet warms 3 degrees millions of people will run their AC more. How much more will they have to pay on their electric bill? What other things will they do without & what is the cost of that? If increased AC use requires generation plant &/or grid upgrades, what will those cost? What about health care & suffering costs from fossil fuel burning?


The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
14. They're green because that's how we define them
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 10:21 AM
Oct 2014

We want them to be green. We need them to be green. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. Sorry, went off track.

No source of energy is cheap either. Except direct sunlight I guess. That's not enough though. We have to harness that energy through technology, and that's what makes it expensive, in economic terms, and eventually in ecological terms if we get to the point where human activity is supported by that massively harnessed energy.

We had to mine the ground for oil, coal, etc. Now we're essentially trying to mine the sky for wind and solar. Not as easy with diffuse energy.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
16. We harness the sun through technology to sustain our technology
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 11:42 AM
Oct 2014

going back to cave life and foraging is romantic (for a guy, maybe), but not everyone's cup of tea. And all fuels (coal, oil, water, wind, solar, gas) are originally from the sun and for fossil fuels, from organic sources. It's all good, it's what one does with it, and how.


One exception: nuclear power. Fissionable materials are theorized to have come to earth from distant supernovae....other people's suns, in other words.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
21. It would be great if all it came down to was what we did with it and how
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 02:40 PM
Oct 2014

It's not, but that doesn't concern us, because we're not built to care about the planet. We're not built to care about other species. We're not even really built to care about people we don't know. Might not even care all that much about someone we do know given the right circumstances.

We're doing what any species would do if it could. We've just become far more dominant than most, if not all. We've done it by coming up with ways to circumvent limits. That gets us into it's own sort of trouble, then we find a way around that, which gets us into more trouble. That's pretty much all we do. Back in the day, we could just move somewhere else if need be. In more recent times, it's been about not doing something anymore, or doubling down with what we were doing previously. Most of the time, I'd say we don't just stop doing whatever we were doing.

The thing about sustainability is that the human species wouldn't be where it is today if we didn't find a way to sustain what it was that we were doing. You can't say something wasn't sustainable until after the fact, because if it's ongoing, then it's being sustained. I'm guessing that's a reason we don't do anything until we have to.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
17. They're trying to hit a fast-moving target, bless their hearts
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 12:34 PM
Oct 2014

PV prices will continue to decline into the forseable future. A couple of developments posted here in the last few weeks come to mind: The SunEdison panels (ETA 2 years @ 40cents/Watt) and the MIT "perfect" solar tech (ETA 5 years).

Development of energy storage tech is also getting white-hot.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
26. So solar is more expensive...because the power used to make solar
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 06:47 PM
Oct 2014

isn't from renewables.

And if we can start using wind and solar to power the factories making wind and solar parts, it drops quickly in relative cost, no?

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