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OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 03:36 PM Feb 2012

Aircraft of the future could capture and re-use some of their own power

http://www.epsrc.ac.uk/newsevents/news/2012/Pages/aircraft.aspx
[font face=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][font size=5]Aircraft of the future could capture and re-use some of their own power[/font]

23 February 2012

[font size=3]Tomorrow's aircraft could contribute to their power needs by harnessing energy from the wheel rotation of their landing gear to generate electricity.

They could use this to power their taxiing to and from airport buildings, reducing the need to use their jet engines. This would save on aviation fuel, cut emissions and reduce noise pollution at airports.



The energy produced by a plane's braking system during landing – currently wasted as heat produced by friction in the aircraft's disc brakes - would be captured and converted into electricity by motor-generators built into the landing gear. The electricity would then be stored and supplied to the in-hub motors in the wheels of the plane when it needed to taxi.



"If the next generation of aircraft that emerges over the next 15 to 20 years could incorporate this kind of technology, it would deliver enormous benefits, especially for people living near airports. Currently, commercial aircraft spend a lot of time on the ground with their noisy jet engines running. In the future this technology could significantly reduce the need to do that."

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Aircraft of the future could capture and re-use some of their own power (Original Post) OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 OP
Strange idea zipplewrath Feb 2012 #1
You are correct about the weight issue. Sinistrous Feb 2012 #2
From the Press Release OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 #3
Cuba used donkeys zipplewrath Feb 2012 #6
Old idea, regenerative braking goes back at least FogerRox Feb 2012 #4
For airplanes zipplewrath Feb 2012 #5
Strange, yes. 1st impression is, that aint gonna fly FogerRox Feb 2012 #14
Perhaps with a different aircraft design. AtheistCrusader Feb 2012 #24
LOL, good point, but I seriously doubt. FogerRox Feb 2012 #25
What problem are they trying to solve? GliderGuider Feb 2012 #29
Engine Free Taxiing zipplewrath Feb 2012 #32
The Swiss Gyrobus had regenerative braking in the 1940's.. Fumesucker Feb 2012 #30
If you wanted to reclaim the kinetic energy... Dead_Parrot Feb 2012 #7
From the Press Release OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 #8
I should probably have read the article. ;) Dead_Parrot Feb 2012 #9
Does scream for a land based solution zipplewrath Feb 2012 #10
Sounds like a form of perpetual motion. Lint Head Feb 2012 #11
Hey, there's an idea... Dead_Parrot Feb 2012 #12
Only in as much as a Prius uses a form of perpetual motion. OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 #13
Or they could recover energy in-flight by covering the outside of the fuselage with wind turbines... GliderGuider Feb 2012 #15
Just haul them out to the tarmac with battery-powered tractors. AtheistCrusader Feb 2012 #16
They use something similar to a catapult for gliders - it's called winch launching GliderGuider Feb 2012 #17
These are most useful from hilltops OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 #18
Regenerative braking is OK with me. And winches aren't just used from hilltops GliderGuider Feb 2012 #20
The engine mounts are engineered to withstand the stress of takeoff OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 #26
Given how stringent aircraft engineering standards are GliderGuider Feb 2012 #28
Every pound means more fuel burned in flight. AtheistCrusader Feb 2012 #22
The idea here is to recover some of the energy which is wasted, heating up the brakes OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 #19
Use tractors for takeoff positioning, electric winch assist for takeoff, regen for landing. GliderGuider Feb 2012 #21
That energy might be better off wasted. AtheistCrusader Feb 2012 #23
I increasingly find myself saying OKIsItJustMe Feb 2012 #27
Don't forger that power and energy are different things caraher Feb 2012 #31

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
1. Strange idea
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 03:52 PM
Feb 2012

As the article says, weight is going to be a real obstacle to implimenting this idea. Another is going to be related to not starting the main engines until you're at/near the runway. There are safety/health checks that occur after starting that could send the plane back to the gate.

It would seem if they want to pursue engineless taxiing (a laudable goal in my mind) why wouldn't they just have a "truck" tow them out to the runway, the same ones often used to park, or back them up. With a little work, they could probably be unmanned/remote pilot and run on rails or something.

'Tis sad thought to was megawatts like that just generating heat.

Sinistrous

(4,249 posts)
2. You are correct about the weight issue.
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 04:24 PM
Feb 2012

Flying those motor-generator sets around would exact a cost in fuel consumption when in the air.

Also, don't some airports already tow aircraft to the end of the runway for takeoff?

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
3. From the Press Release
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 04:28 PM
Feb 2012


A number of technical challenges would need to be overcome. For example, weight would be a key issue, so a way of minimising the amount of conductors and electronic power converters used in an on-board energy recovery system would need to be identified.



(i.e. the researchers are aware of the weight problem.)

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
6. Cuba used donkeys
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 05:03 PM
Feb 2012

There was a time, when fuel was scarce in Cuba, that they were using donkeys to pull them to the threshold.

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
4. Old idea, regenerative braking goes back at least
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 04:37 PM
Feb 2012

to electric golf carts in the 1960's, if not earlier.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
5. For airplanes
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 05:02 PM
Feb 2012

That's the part that's strange. Adding weight for ground operations is something they are loath to do on most aircraft. Heck, the Germans used ejectable landing gear and skids in WWII. I've been waiting for someone to dump APU's. Adding something like regenerative breaking on an airplane seems like a strange direction for aircraft design. Especially since I suspect it won't "replace" the friction brakes, but merely augment them. So you won't lose that weight, although you may get away with smaller/lighter versions.

And do ya dig the storage capacity they're talking about? Megawatts? I wanna see THAT battery.

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
14. Strange, yes. 1st impression is, that aint gonna fly
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 07:46 PM
Feb 2012

2nd impression a few hrs later is WTF are they talking about.

Regenerative braking is fine when you already have an battery/electric motor, like a golf cart or a Toyota Prius. Just add some wiring relays in the system, are UR all set.

An airplane doesnt use batteries & electric motor for its main form of propulsion, so they have to be added, at a major penalty.

The more I think about it -it sounds Effin stupid.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
24. Perhaps with a different aircraft design.
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 01:19 PM
Feb 2012

Something more like a hybrid, where the batteries and such are already present.

ARE there any hybrid commercial aircraft designs kicking around?

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
29. What problem are they trying to solve?
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 07:41 PM
Feb 2012

If it's noise abatement on the ground there are ways to do that.
If it's reduced fuel use on the ground there are ways to do that.
If it's fuel economy in the air, there are different ways to do that.

They haven't given a clear statement of the problem they're trying to solve. They've had a brain flash of, "Oh here's some wasted energy, what could we do with it?"

The amount of energy they're talking about reclaiming is a minuscule fraction of the energy involved in the flight itself.

As far as I can tell it's basically a classroom exercise in electrical engineering.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
32. Engine Free Taxiing
Mon Feb 27, 2012, 01:13 PM
Feb 2012

The article suggested is was part of some larger effort to reduce the energy used during taxi operations. "Engine free taxing" or some such nomenclature. But I agree, this particular study seems to be more a side exercise in "what could we do with this energy" more than any practical answer to a specific existing problem.

Dead_Parrot

(14,478 posts)
7. If you wanted to reclaim the kinetic energy...
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 05:14 PM
Feb 2012

...it might be more practicable to use a carrier-style hook & cable arrester, hooked to to a generator. Instead of powering the aircraft's taxiing, use it to power the airport... Keep the normal brakes for when you miss.

To say this presents other problems is an understatement.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
8. From the Press Release
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 05:21 PM
Feb 2012


"When an Airbus 320 lands, for example, a combination of its weight and speed gives it around three megawatts peak available power," Professor Stewart explains. "We explored a wide variety of ways of harnessing that energy, such as generating electricity from the interaction between copper coils embedded in the runway and magnets attached to the underside of the aircraft, and then feeding the power produced into the local electricity grid."

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
10. Does scream for a land based solution
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 05:24 PM
Feb 2012

They do mention in the article that other ground based ideas were considered too, so I hesitate to be too critical. And it is an interesting idea considering the amount of energy these planes have when they are landing. But one does sorta scratch the head and wonder how it could be that some land based system wouldn't make more sense.

Dead_Parrot

(14,478 posts)
12. Hey, there's an idea...
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 05:51 PM
Feb 2012

line all of the aircraft up on the runway, nose to tail: When a plane lands and slams into the last one, the energy will transfer down the line to the first, which will take off...

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
13. Only in as much as a Prius uses a form of perpetual motion.
Thu Feb 23, 2012, 06:28 PM
Feb 2012

In both cases, they recover energy from braking to use powering a vehicle for short distances.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
15. Or they could recover energy in-flight by covering the outside of the fuselage with wind turbines...
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 08:07 AM
Feb 2012
for the thermodynamically impaired.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
16. Just haul them out to the tarmac with battery-powered tractors.
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:06 PM
Feb 2012

Problem solved, plane lighter.

Want to save fuel? Catapults, like a carrier deck. It would of course, need to be much less violent than it's military couterpart, but could also be an electrically-driven catapult.

Might save on critical engine failures on takeoff as well, given that you wouldn't have to run them up as hard, if you get the plane to minimum takeoff speed with the 'pult.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
17. They use something similar to a catapult for gliders - it's called winch launching
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:20 PM
Feb 2012

Most glider winches are diesel or gasoline powered, but a stationary system could use electricity. Add electric ground tugs and it could be a very interesting system.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
18. These are most useful from hilltops
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:30 PM
Feb 2012

The glider pilot needs to quickly find a source of lift (like a ridge for example.)

Naturally, to do this sort of thing with a jetliner would require a tremendous amount of structural reinforcement, which would mean a great deal of extra weight. (Tell me again why they cannot use regenerative braking?)

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
20. Regenerative braking is OK with me. And winches aren't just used from hilltops
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:49 PM
Feb 2012

I've done a few winch launches in Europe/UK, and they were all from flatland or in mountain valleys. The old days of bungee launches did require flinging the glider off the edge if a cliff with a giant slingshot, but that's not the practice any more.

For an airliner launch, the ground-based system would just replace some of the additional engine power needed to accelerate the plane to V2 (the speed at which the aircraft may safely take off with one engine out). Unlike a glider launch, the airliner has its engines running, so the catapult/winch wouldn't need to get the aircraft to an initial safe altitude. The additional stress on the fuselage or passengers should be minimal compared to taking off under engine power. Airliners would need to retain all their current capability for landing and taking off from uneuipped runways.

ETA: the biggest problem with winch launches like this might be turnaround time - the time to get the system ready to hook up the next victim.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
26. The engine mounts are engineered to withstand the stress of takeoff
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 06:04 PM
Feb 2012

It occurred to me that you might take advantage of the engine mounts somehow, but, then, that would require two (or more) attachments, with a Y-shaped cable, increasing complexity, and the likelihood of failure.

Then I thought of the front landing gear. These are built to withstand the stress of landing, and might be engineered to take the stress of being pulled aloft as well, but, then, we’re talking about heavier landing gear (which was the supposed reason to avoid the regenerative braking scheme proposed in the OP.)

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
28. Given how stringent aircraft engineering standards are
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 06:50 PM
Feb 2012

It would require a complete structural re-design. Structural retrofits of that magnitude won't pass the FAA standards.

The design itself would probably be fairly simple - it just requires an attachment point on the bottom of the aircraft, probably just in front of the main wing spar, attached directly to the spar by load-bearing members. The spar itself has plenty of excess load-bearing capacity for the job. The issues would be stability under tow (especially in cross winds) and ensuring a 100% positive release.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
22. Every pound means more fuel burned in flight.
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 01:14 PM
Feb 2012

That's why the airlines are jacking people around on luggage weight surcharges. Or at least part of the reason, anyway.

I'd like to see the cost/benefit tradeoff, but batteries are heavy. I can't imagine there would be a net gain on total fuel consumption, if you add some weight to the plane to taxi around on the ground, because you have to carry it with you in the air as well.

But hey, sometimes these things don't work out like we expect, so, I'd like to see the total fuel cost. Maybe on short flights this would be more workable.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
19. The idea here is to recover some of the energy which is wasted, heating up the brakes
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:35 PM
Feb 2012

Tractors would not achieve this.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
21. Use tractors for takeoff positioning, electric winch assist for takeoff, regen for landing.
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 12:52 PM
Feb 2012

Lots of ways to improve the efficiency of operations using electricity.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
23. That energy might be better off wasted.
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 01:15 PM
Feb 2012

You can power the electric tugs or tractors with wind turbines, and then focus on making the planes as light as possible, win-win.

Edit: The lighter the plane, the less braking energy is needed, by the way.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
27. I increasingly find myself saying
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 06:09 PM
Feb 2012

“In America, everyone is entitled to an opinion, whether it is informed or not.”

Most of the objections raised in this thread are raised in the original article (which it seems few have bothered to read.)



"When an Airbus 320 lands, for example, a combination of its weight and speed gives it around three megawatts peak available power," Professor Stewart explains. "We explored a wide variety of ways of harnessing that energy, such as generating electricity from the interaction between copper coils embedded in the runway and magnets attached to the underside of the aircraft, and then feeding the power produced into the local electricity grid."

Unfortunately, most of the ideas weren't technically feasible or simply wouldn't be cost-effective. But the study showed that capturing energy direct from a plane's landing gear and recycling it for the aircraft's own use really could work, particularly if integrated with new technologies emerging from current research related to the more-electric or all-electric aircraft.

A number of technical challenges would need to be overcome. For example, weight would be a key issue, so a way of minimising the amount of conductors and electronic power converters used in an on-board energy recovery system would need to be identified.

caraher

(6,278 posts)
31. Don't forger that power and energy are different things
Sat Feb 25, 2012, 04:26 PM
Feb 2012

The 3 MW is a maximum *rate* at which the brakes convert the airliner's kinetic energy to heat, not the energy available to be converted. There's actually not a huge amount of energy to be had from landing, and it's a one-time-per-flight energy source (maybe regenerative braking *during* taxiing might be the bigger effect?).

To get a feel for why I say it's not much, the upper limit on what the brakes can extract is the kinetic energy of the plane when it touches down. For a 70 tonne A-320 at 140 knots (72 m/s) that works out to KE = 0.5 m v^2 = 0.5 (70,000 kg) (72 m/s)^2 = 180 MJ, or about 50 kWh. Another way of looking at this is that this is the energy content of about 4 kg of jet fuel. (Of course, it takes more than 4 kg of jet fuel to bring an A-320 to 140 knots, given friction, air drag and engine efficiency considerations...) But this also ignores the other mechanisms used to slow a plane (such as flaps and reverse thrust).

I wonder what fraction of a typical airliner fuel load is used in taxiing. The balance of that vs. any increased airborne fuel consumption penalties associated with lugging extra equipment will determine whether this is an energy saver. It might make airports quieter, though.

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