Resistant Weeds Flourishing Thanks To Roundup? Go Medieval, Add Agent Orange Component, Sez EPA!

[hatrack]

Last edited Fri Dec 12, 2014, 09:36 AM - Edit history (1)

In October the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency approved the registration of Enlist Duo, a new herbicide to fight superweeds resistant to other weedkillers. The chemical combines glyphosate, originally developed and marketed by Monsanto as Roundup, with the older, more toxic 2,4-D, one of the ingredients in Agent Orange. The approval applies to six states, and the EPA is accepting public comment until Dec. 15 to register the pesticide in 10 additional states. The registration, which came a month after the U.S. Department of Agriculture approved new corn and soybean seeds genetically engineered to resist both herbicides, is subject to a six-year limit and some monitoring requirements. The EPA’s approval of a new cocktail of old herbicides signals further escalation in the war on weeds, increased industrialization of agriculture and yet another victory for the agrochemical giants. If Americans want a food system that is less chemical-dependent and healthier for people and the rest of the environment, they need to understand the game chemical companies play with superweeds and their superproducts.

Here’s how it typically goes: The agrochemical escalation begins when a new herbicide or pesticide is developed and approved. The chemical company promises that the new product will provide better protection against broadleaf weeds or boll weevils or problem grasses or corn borers or some other plant or insect pest. Farmers buy the new pesticide, and for a time, it works — that is, it works to reduce specific weeds for the farmers who use it. But even that success comes at the risk of poisoning neighboring farmers’ crops and people and animals exposed to chemical drift.

Then a few of the targeted weeds or insects prove strong enough to survive. With their genetic advantage, they multiply and eventually dominate their species. A new generation of pests emerges, with a genetic resistance to the pesticide. Farmers apply more of the product to knock out the stronger nemesis, and the cycle continues until the weed or insect resistance is so strong that the product doesn't work against them. And then the game begins again. For the agrochemical companies, the answer is always a new, stronger chemical cocktail that can combat the resistant superweeds developed in response to the last chemical solution. That's where Enlist Duo, a solution for the superweeds that now resist Roundup, comes in.

EDIT

Pesticide drift is the movement of chemicals to areas that are not its target. When farmers apply pesticides, the dust or droplets can kill not only the targeted weeds but also a neighboring farm’s plants. “Volatile 2,4-D fumes can drift for miles” and “exposure to volatile fumes” can cause injury days after pesticide is applied, depending on temperature and humidity, according to a University of Maryland fact sheet for grape growers. Leaving a buffer zone between sprayed land and other crops can reduce this effect, but that takes land out of production and reduces farmers’ profits.

EDIT

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/12/enlist-duo-superweedsglyphosatemonsantoepa.html

[GreatGazoo]

1. And here is another twist in this: corn and soy are selling below the cost of producing them

There is a complete over-supply of corn and soy. Silos are full. The cost of harvesting and storing is higher than any foreseeable price that can be gotten for the crops so....

Big Ag is getting $8+ bil in tax dollars this year to continue this madness. The 2014 record corn crop = record taxpayer sudisdies:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-17/corn-resumes-decline-as-u-s-harvest-seen-advancing-to-record.html

In other words, we spend tax dollars we don't have to produce food we don't eat sprayed with toxins we don't want. Mission Accomplished!

[happyslug]

2. If use properly (and they are NOT) herbicide can do wonders....

The problem is the key to proper use falls into two categories:

1. Complete elimination of a pest. This can be seen in the case of Small Pox and Polio, Science did NOT permit ether to survive long enough to evolve into a resistant version. Antibiotic Resistant Syphilis and Gonorrhea have been reported since the 1960s. Each time a new Antibiotic was discovered that went after those Antibiotic Resistant Syphilis and Gonorrhea. It is believed we have reached a level in antibiotic research that no new antibiotics will be invented, thus the latest version of Antibiotic resistant Gonorrhea has everyone scared. So far I have NOT run across any reports of Antibiotic Syphilis, but it will be next.

http://www.cdc.gov/Std/gonorrhea/arg/default.htm
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/08/10/drug-resistant-gonorrhea.aspx

2. Limited use so that resistant versions do NOT come to dominate. This has been advocated by people in regards to DDT, but they want it limited to use inside building and windows, mosquitos that do NOT go into such places would be untouched and thus would stay the dominate form of Malaria and Yellow fever and are better address by proper handling of water. These scientists are very careful to say they want a VERY LIMITED use of DDT, but several right wingers have taken their positions and used it to say the ban on DDT should end and DDT be available for general use. General use UNDERMINES what these scientists are advocating, for General use (if we ignore the problems of DDT and Birds) will promote DDT resistant mosquitoes and that would undo what these Scientists are advocating.

Now, I am more familiar with vectors that affect humans, but the same evolutionary pressure can be seen with Roundup and herbicides. If use either to eliminate a pest (I use Roundup on Knotweed, but I aim only at the knotweed and try to eliminate ALL of the knotweed infestation) Roundup can be effective and one of the best herbicide for such complete wipe out of an invasive pest.

The problem is many farmers use Roundup to eliminate weeds but they do NOT go for a complete wipe out, they only hit their fields, they ignore any areas that is not producing the crop they will harvest. That is NOT a complete elimination and gives weeds a chance to evolve in a way they are Roundup resistant. You can NOT leave such infestation to sit and fester but that is what farmers and most others users of Roundup are doing. It is NOT a complete wipe out and they are now wondering why Roundup is no longer effective.

Traditional weed management require labor, wither to do the weeding itself (using a hoe) or working with an animal (Having a horse pull a plough BETWEEN the fallows of the crop) or careful use of animals (Chickens being released into a feed once the plants have ground 4-6 inche, the chickens go after any weed seen they see, any insects they see but ignore the crop for it is NO longer a seed. Another example is where farmers ran a cow into an orchard. The cow kept the grass and other weeds down so the apple trees thrive and when it came time to harvest you had no ground cover to fight.

Notice the methods of using animals tend to be labor intensive, someone has to get the chickens back into the chicken coup at night AND provide feed for them when they are NOT permitted into the fields. The same with cows, horses and cattle in orchards.

Another technique was planting several crops in one field. The Native Americans did this, planing Corn, Beans and Pumpkin together. The corn was the main crop, but the beans was something that would come into harvest first AND fixes nitrogen to the soil. Pumpkin provided ground cover so it was hard for weeds to find a way to dirt AND if they did find sunlight.

Now after you manually harvested the Corn, Beans and Pumpkins, Farmers would run their cows and Cattle in those fields to eat the plant left over from the manual harvesting. Come spring, farmers would let out pigs into those same fields. Pigs are rooters and could be used to root out weeds that had deep roots. Pigs were also know to eat snakes, so if snakes were a problem you ran pigs in that field and that solved that problem. Thus get the field ready for planting.

Thus the use of animals were tied in with farming prior to mechanization. In late Soviet Times the most productive fields in the Soviet Union was the small fields run by the peasants in the various collectives. Those fields around their home they had complete use of and did much of the above when they were NOT busy on the Collective. The Collective was similar to the corporate farms of the US (And were pattern after them) for by 1900 such large one crop farms were seen as the "Farms of the Future" even in the US. The Collectives were NEVER as productive as the small farms of the peasants, except in producing whatever crop they concentrated. The Peasants and their small farms had multiple crops per field, the large farm one. On a per acre per crop basis the peasants was inferior in productivity, but if you looked at a total crop/animal basis they were much more productive).

This was also noted in the US by the 1950s, if you look at a crop per acre, the then newer methods of using chemicals as fertilizers and herbicides were already increasing by amounts previously unheard of. On the other hand, if you look at ALL of the Crops that could be raised in an acre, then the older methods were MUCH more efficient, for you were getting three crops per acre not one.

The problem was the newer methods did NOT require as much labor and thus replaced the older method based on a desire to reduce cost of labor per crop. This has been the pattern since the 1950s, increase mechanization, less use of Human Labor, elimination of any animal labor and concentration on one crop per acre as oppose to many crops per acre.

The problem is such large farms (or Collectives if you are Russian) require the use of various chemicals in the form of fertilizers and herbicides. The Smaller farms used animals for Fertilizer to a much greater degree then larger farms and relied on manual labor (hoes) to control weeds.

With herbicides reaching the end of their development AND not being used to eliminate all weeks (Something impossible, but they could have eliminated some of the worse non native weeds like Knotweed) the productivity of such farms will fall. This will continue till it is clear that the methods used on Small Farms are as productive on a total crop basis. This means the price of food will rise, returning to the 40% of average income it was in the 1930s as opposed to the less then 9.7% it is today (in 1960 it was 17.5%).

http://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistics-charting-the-essentials/food-prices-and-spending.aspx

Yes, food prices will go up, but like the fall in such prices in relation to total income since the 1930s, it will be a slow climb. Furthermore it may NOT have bottom out yet, what we are seeing are probably the first sign of a bottoming out of efficiencies do to mechanization of farming, but it still drop a bit before it starts to climb. The numbers are not clear enough to make such a prediction at the present time, but once you look at how herbicides are becoming less effective, you quickly see it is only a matter of time before prices bottom out and start to climb. The big cut in food prices was between the 1930s and 1960 NOT 1960 and 2010 thus we are heading to a bottom, but what the bottom is, is unknown at present.

Side note: Total Food, both eaten at home and out seems to have bottomed out, but food eaten at home is still declining, while food eaten out is still increasing. This has more to do with the fact women are working outside the home then any other factor. It is hard to both cook and home AND do a full day's work at some employer's place of business.

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Thus, how this problem of the growing ineffectiveness of herbicide will affect Americans is unknown. Will we return to the 1950s where women stayed at home and cooked dinner or will we return to the late 1800s, when women worked outside of home and people ate more outside of home for mothers did not have time or the equipment to cook at home?

I lean to a return to urban living of the late 1800s. Now more Americans lived in Rural America then Urban America till the 1920 Census, and Rural America women prepared the food WHILE also working with their husbands in the fields. In urban American, most urban homes did NOT have a place for her to cook, thus bring food back home to eat or going out to eat was more the norm. As you enter the 2oth Century modern Kitchens, even in urban areas, became popular, so that by the WWII era most homes had them and even urban women could prepare meals at home, thus setting up for the 1950 era of the wife staying at home and making dinner.

[FogerRox]

3. Roundup on Knotweed

The Knotweed absorbs the Roundup thru the leaves, then sheds its leaves before the roundup translocates thru the plant. Its far more effective to use a herbicide that is absorbed thru the bark/stem and is effective with only one application..

[happyslug]

4. Only in spring and summer. Roundup is best in the fall.

Last edited Sun Dec 14, 2014, 01:23 PM - Edit history (1)

Knotweed does NOT transmit roundup or anything else to its roots till after it has flowered. Once Knotweed has flowered; Roundup is extremely effective. In my area Knotweed flowers about July 12th.

I have sprayed two sets of Knotweed, one flowering the other not. You see the leaves die on both, but the next year the flowering one did NOT come back the non flowering one came back as if it was never sprayed.

Once you understand that the best way to get rid of knotweed is spraying late summer and in the fall, roundup is extremely effective.

[FogerRox]

5. Interesting. thanks

[happyslug]

6. The knotweed I have been dealing with may be 100 years old

Last edited Mon Dec 15, 2014, 03:45 PM - Edit history (1)

The story is the Old Pennsylvania Railroad planted Knotweed to reduce erosion in the hillsides the road had clear cut of timber. It worked, but then prevented or reduced the growth of second growth timber. Today, 100 years afterward the second growth has grown back. spreading down from the hilltops to the rail lines.

The problem is on every old timber road (generally no wider then six feet) the Knotweed went up those hillsides and infect those areas without trees. Thus on the various rails to trails Knotweed is present and pain in the neck. Various things have been tried, but the most effective so far has been Roundup used after mid July.

Now, if I see two groups of Knotweed and one is NOT flowering, I will NOT spray that group till middle or late August. On the other hand once they flower I have NOT seen any difference in how the Knotweed react to Roundup no matter how long after July you spray.

Given the age of the Knotweed in my area, I have found it takes three to five years to get rid of it. Even the National Park Service gets an occasional growth out of old knotweed on the part of the local Rail to Trail that it controls (and bragged about using a NEW Herbicide to kill it with) and it sprayed its are ten years ago. The roots are that deep and old.

http://news.psu.edu/story/185864/1997/05/01/penn-state-forest-experts-fight-weeds-make-history-clearer

When I first spray some new Knotweed it is often ten to twelve feet tall (I have NOT measured it, but it is way over my head and I am 6'2&quot . The next year it tends to come back, but never goes over six feet tall and thinner coverage. The third year, knotweed comes back in patches. fourth and subsequent years, here and there.

I always leave the Knotweed grow till it flowers and then spray it. It is a waste of time to do anything else.

Now, I have noticed in areas with Cattle and horses, knotweed does not grow, for the Cattle and horses love knotweed and eat it as it appears. It is great you have a huge pasture with no knotweed but plenty of cows, then right next to it, but separated by a fence is a huge knotweed patch. The knotweed survives for the cows can not get to it, but the Knotweed can not expand for any knotweed that comes up in the pasture is eaten by the cows.

Thus you have a couple of options when dealing with Knotweed:

1. Spray with Roundup after it has flower, wait a month and spray anything greed (Given when and where I am spraying going a second time is rarely an option thus my two to three years plan instead).

2. Put a Grazier NOT a Browser in with the knotweed. Deer is generally a Browser, i.e. they eat leaves and twigs. Bison is a Grazier, they eat grass. Knotweed is a grass, but it grows tall, but graziers eat it as it spring up in the spring and later seasons. This is a multi year project, you just keep the grazier grazing. Cattle tends to be a grazier but can browse. Sheep are Graziers, goats do both. This is best when no one wants to use chemicals, but requires the grazier to be kept in the same area as the knotweed, but that is NOT always possible in areas open to the general public.

3. Hitting the roots. Round up is often injected directly into the roots of Knotweed to kill it, but this requires digging up the root but NOT cutting the root as you dig it up. It is difficult and best done with Knotweed whose roots are exposed for some reason (for example dug up as part of a construction project). I have NOT seen this method in use, but I have read reports saying it is effective but costly.

4. Laying down carpet (or other sun proof material) over the knotweed. Knotweed is a plant and needs exposure to sunlight. People have reported successes with putting a knotweed infestation under some sort of sun proof material in the spring. The plant still grow, but with no sunlight do NOT turn green. You will have to remove the cover every so many weeks and cut the growth and then put the cover back over the knotweed infestation, but it prevents growth and any energy going to the roots but all types of energy being used to send up the growths. Time consuming, but should be effective, but again a multi year project.

Notice the key, to get rid of long established Knotweed infestation you have to accept that is will take three to five years. I would suggest a combination of the above would do wonders. Spray in early fall, then run goats in the following spring. I would suggest running the goats in the third year more then the second year but I be tempted to try second year to see if that works (but I would NOT try it if the infestation is several decades old, in such cases wait for the third year).

One good thing about Knotweed, it is a Nitrogen fixer, thus the places where it had been is rich in nitrogen and thus you quickly see a recovery of native plants once the Knotweed is killed off. It will take two to three years, but the native plants do come back quickly.

[Bill USA]

7. sounds like one of those science fiction movies where the characters decide to do something everyone

in the audience knows will lead to them being crunched on .... only this ain't a movie!