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unhappycamper

(60,364 posts)
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 07:49 AM Oct 2015

Syria and Russia launch huge offensive on rebels in Aleppo

http://www.dw.com/en/syria-and-russia-launch-huge-offensive-on-rebels-in-aleppo/a-18786712

The Syrian military has begun a major ground offensive on the country's second city of Aleppo. The advance in northern Syria has been supported by the Russian air force.

Syria and Russia launch huge offensive on rebels in Aleppo
16.10.2015

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said on Friday that in the past 24 hours, "dozens" of Russian airstrikes had struck the area which is controlled by a various groups including rebels, Islamist fighters and al Qaeda's Syria affiliate, al Nusra Front.

"The Syrian army started a new front on Friday and advanced to take control of the villages of Abteen and Kaddar" about 15 kilometers (9 miles) south of Aleppo city," said Observatory head Rami Abdel Rahman.

According to a senior military source in Syria, the assaults are also being supported by hundreds of fighters from Iran and Lebanon's Hezbollah.

"This is the promised battle," the source told Reuters news agency.
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Syria and Russia launch huge offensive on rebels in Aleppo (Original Post) unhappycamper Oct 2015 OP
Putin shows his realism in Syria bemildred Oct 2015 #1
Just when it couldn't get any worse. . . unhappycamper Oct 2015 #3
Yeah, I really want to just hide, but I can't look away. bemildred Oct 2015 #4
You may bomb any of my threads anytime. unhappycamper Oct 2015 #27
Good. Same to you. nt bemildred Oct 2015 #28
Are the U.S. and Russia Forming 5 New States in the Middle-East? bemildred Oct 2015 #2
Putin: Russian strikes in Syria killed hundreds of militants bemildred Oct 2015 #5
Putin Emphasizes Need to Put a Stop to Extremism Before it Spreads bemildred Oct 2015 #6
Australia Says US-Led Coalition Needs No Russian Help in Fighting ISIL bemildred Oct 2015 #7
Iran, Hezbollah join Russian jets and Syrian army in attack on Islamic State bemildred Oct 2015 #8
Obama won’t admit the real targets of Russian airstrikes bemildred Oct 2015 #9
ISIS Jihadis Shave Beards and Cross-dress to Flee to West bemildred Oct 2015 #10
Putin: Russian operation in Syria is time-limited, has achieved impressive results bemildred Oct 2015 #11
The biggest sign yet that Russia is prepared for a long military operation in Syria bemildred Oct 2015 #12
Vladimir Putin's playbook in Syria bemildred Oct 2015 #13
‘No evidence’ of Cuban troops fighting in Syria, insists White House bemildred Oct 2015 #14
Glad Josh Earnest cleared that up... KoKo Oct 2015 #21
Every time I see that story it traces back to that ICCAS group. bemildred Oct 2015 #22
U.S. intelligence: Russian strikes haven't greatly aided Syria's Assad bemildred Oct 2015 #15
US rebel training programme 'nuts,' ex-Pentagon chief says bemildred Oct 2015 #16
Russia may launch cruise missiles at Syria militants from ships in Mediterranean Sea bemildred Oct 2015 #17
. nt bemildred Oct 2015 #18
The Reckless Guns of October bemildred Oct 2015 #19
Why Peace Activists Should Stop Cheering for Russian Bombs in Syria bemildred Oct 2015 #20
"...murder is not moderate..." KoKo Oct 2015 #23
It seems unlikely to me that things will get better while the various outside meddlers bemildred Oct 2015 #24
Atlantic Council: Rethinking the US’ Strategy on ISIS bemildred Oct 2015 #25
The United States’ surprise allies in Syria bemildred Oct 2015 #26

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
1. Putin shows his realism in Syria
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 08:47 AM
Oct 2015
A lack of moderate Syrian opposition forces has forced Washington to give tacit consent to Russian intervention.

The Russian government has a number of different motives for its intervention in the conflict in Syria. Among these are the desire to help an old ally, to be seen once more as a great power on the world stage, and establish a position that will force US and European leaders to treat Russia's views with greater respect, especially over the Ukraine crisis.

Russia's strategy, however, also stems from a particular analysis of the situation in Syria based on a mixture of hard-headed realism and the experience of over two decades since the fall of communism. The Russian analysis is that the US strategy of arming and building up the Syrian "moderate opposition" never stood any chance of success and has now been recognised by the Pentagon as a failed strategy. Also, under these circumstances, if the Baath state in Damascus is overthrown, the result will be, at best, long-term anarchy; and at worst: a takeover by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) and al-Qaeda.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/10/putin-shows-realism-syria-151013102705917.html

unhappycamper

(60,364 posts)
3. Just when it couldn't get any worse. . .
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 08:52 AM
Oct 2015

The shit storm dubya started in the Middle East is coming back to bite Obama in the ass again.

Expect more bad news from Iraq and Afghanistan.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
4. Yeah, I really want to just hide, but I can't look away.
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 08:54 AM
Oct 2015

I hope you don't mind me bombing your thread?

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
2. Are the U.S. and Russia Forming 5 New States in the Middle-East?
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 08:52 AM
Oct 2015

The Mideast map-redrawing ‘Act One’ has begun. Ba’athist/Alawite Syria, Sunni Syria, Kurdistan, Sunni Iraq and Shi’a Iraq are the first batch of new ‘states’ to be formed as the Obama Administration has finally accepted Russia’s role in preserving a Ba’athist Syrian state for the Alawis — the religious sect who makes up about 12% of Syria’s population and remains “loyal to the (Assad) regime even as the economy deteriorates” [Note 1].

Without some sort of compromise beforehand, it is common diplomatic sense that the Obama-Putin private meeting on September 29 could not have crystallized. The picture turned clear when Secretary of State John Kerry and Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, “standing shoulder to shoulder somewhere in the United Nations building” on September 30, announced their common vision of resolving Syria’s war through “political process”, thus sealing “an American stamp of legitimacy on Russia’s Syria intervention” [Note 2].


http://fpif.org/are-the-u-s-and-russia-forming-5-new-states-in-the-middle-east/

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
5. Putin: Russian strikes in Syria killed hundreds of militants
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 08:59 AM
Oct 2015

MOSCOW (AP) -- Russian airstrikes in Syria have killed hundreds of militants, President Vladimir Putin said Friday as he called for a shared military effort of ex-Soviet nations to prevent possible militant incursions to Syria from Afghanistan.

Putin told a meeting of leaders of ex-Soviet nations in Kazakhstan that the Russian military has achieved "impressive" results during the air campaign in Syria that began on Sept. 30.

"Dozens of control facilities and ammunition depots, hundreds of terrorists and a large number of weapons have been destroyed," he said.

Putin reaffirmed that the Russian bombing blitz against the Islamic State group and other radicals in Syria will continue "for the period of the Syrian troops' offensive operations against terrorists," but wouldn't elaborate.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_RUSSIA_SYRIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-16-07-36-34

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
6. Putin Emphasizes Need to Put a Stop to Extremism Before it Spreads
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 09:01 AM
Oct 2015

---

The Russian General Staff said the Islamic State militants are suffering significant losses, changing tactics and hiding in villages.

The situation in Afghanistan is very close to critical as terrorists are attempting to enter Central Asian nations, Vladimir Putin said.

“One of their [terrorists’] goals is to break into the Central Asian region. We need to be ready to react to this scenario in agreement,” Putin said during a Commonwealth of Independent States meeting.


He also said that the situation in Afghanistan is nearing a critical point and that terrorists are getting more and more influence and not even hiding their plans for further expansion.

http://sputniknews.com/world/20151016/1028605729/Russia-Anti-Terror-Arab-Nations.html

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
7. Australia Says US-Led Coalition Needs No Russian Help in Fighting ISIL
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 09:03 AM
Oct 2015

According to Australia’s Ambassador to Russia, US-led coalition requires no assistance from Russian jets in striking Islamic State positions in Syria.

http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151016/1028606143/Australia-Russia-Fighting-ISIL.html

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
8. Iran, Hezbollah join Russian jets and Syrian army in attack on Islamic State
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 09:05 AM
Oct 2015

Beirut: Syrian troops backed by Hezbollah and Iranian fighters launched an offensive south of Aleppo on Friday, expanding their counter-attack against rebels across western Syria with support from Russian air strikes.

The assault means the army is now pressing insurgents on several fronts near Syria's main cities in the west, control of which would secure President Bashar al-Assad's hold on power even if the east of the country is still held by Islamic State.

Aleppo, a commercial and industrial hub near the border with Turkey, was Syria's largest city before its four-year civil war, which grew out of protests against Mr Assad's rule. Control of the city, still home to 2 million people, is divided between the government and rebels.

"This is the promised battle," a senior government military source said of the offensive backed by hundreds of Hezbollah and Iranian forces which he said had made some gains on the ground.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/syrian-army-russian-jets-attack-islamic-state-in-aleppo-as-us-urges-caution-20151016-gkbf06.html

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
9. Obama won’t admit the real targets of Russian airstrikes
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 09:08 AM
Oct 2015

Gareth Porter
Friday 16 October 2015 11:13 UTC

---

“It is no accident,” Sly reported, “that the first targets of Russian airstrikes in Syria were the locations where rebels armed with TOW missles have made the most substantial gain and where they most directly threaten Assad’s hold on power”. That is an obvious reference to the forces that took over Idlib province in March. But Sly never refers to the “Army of Conquest” victory in Idlib or acknowledges that al-Nusra Front was the main benefactor of the CIA programme. Her story quotes a proponent of the programme, former US ambassador Robert Ford, as assuring us that the system prevented the missiles from “falling into extremist hands,” and that he was aware of only two TOW missiles having been obtained by al-Nusra.

Sly reported a very different story in March, however, after the dissolution of Harakat Hazm, the main CIA-supported “moderate rebel group” remaining in the north, following its complete defeat by al-Nusra Front. The victorious al-Nusra announced publicly, according to Sly’s report, that it had seized the TOW anti-tank missiles the CIA had supplied to Harakat Hazm when it occupied the groups headquarters near Aleppo. Moreover, the Saudis reportedly had ownership of TOW missiles, and they and the Qataris had already been funneling arms to al-Nusra Front, as Vice-President Joe Biden revealed in October 2014.

It is astonishing that at this late date, anyone in the media could still be seriously suggesting that the CIA somehow managed to turn the “moderate” Syrian rebels into a powerful offensive force threatening the Assad regime in the north. Since the Idlib victory, it is generally understood that the primary threat to drive the Assad regime from power comes from al-Nusra Front and the forces allied with it, and not from the Islamic State - and certainly not the mythical “moderate rebels”.

It is easy to understand why the Obama administration is not interested in talking about the role of al-Nusra in the present Syrian political-military situation. According to Sly’s source, the covert operation to provide the TOW missiles to the Army of Conquest was aimed at putting “sufficient pressure on Assad’s forces to persuade him to compromise but not so much that his government would precipitously collapse and leave a dangerous power vacuum”.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/obama-won-t-admit-real-targets-russian-airstrikes-386489294

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
10. ISIS Jihadis Shave Beards and Cross-dress to Flee to West
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 09:09 AM
Oct 2015

LONDON: The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) fighters have left behind mounds of hair after shaving off their beards and dressing as women to flee to the West.

According to the Daily Star, a photo on Twitter posted by an Iraqi journalist showed huge mounds of shavings in the Syrian city of Aleppo.

There were discarded packets of razors among the mounts of facial hair.

The journalist tweeted that the ISIS fighters shaved off so they escape clean shaven to Turkey.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/world/ISIS-Jihadis-Shave-Beards-and-Cross-dress-to-Flee-to-West/2015/10/16/article3083244.ece

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
11. Putin: Russian operation in Syria is time-limited, has achieved impressive results
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 09:11 AM
Oct 2015

Astana, SANA – The Russian military forces have achieved “impressive results” in Syria, Russian President Vladimir Putin asserted on Friday.

“Attacking the targets previously agreed with the Syrians from the air and sea, our troops have achieved impressive results. They destroyed hundreds of operation centers and ammunition depots, hundreds of terrorists and large numbers of military equipment,” Putin said at the meeting of the Council of Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) Heads of State in Kazakhstan.

He recalled that the operation of the Russian Aerospace Forces involving Caspian Flotilla ships “fully conforms to international law and is absolutely legitimate, since it is carried out on the basis of the official request of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.”

The operation, he added, “has strictly defined frames, aircraft and other means are used exclusively for attacking terrorist groups. There are also time limits coinciding with the Syrian forces’ offensive operations against terrorists.”

http://sana.sy/en/?p=57990

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
12. The biggest sign yet that Russia is prepared for a long military operation in Syria
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 09:11 AM
Oct 2015

Russia's military operation in Syria isn't likely to be short, The New York Times reports.

Along with already-positioned military hardware that includes tanks, aircraft, and ships off of Syria's coast, Moscow has also begun to move in supplies and resources that are clearly intended for a lengthy stay, rather than a quick intervention.

"Russia is not only bringing some of its most advanced hardware to the fight, it has also deployed large field kitchens and even dancers and singers to entertain the troops — all signs that Moscow is settling in for the long haul," The Times reports, citing American analysts.

This level of support indicates that Russia may be planning to support a forward-deployed force for some time.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-biggest-sign-yet-that-russia-is-prepared-for-a-long-military-operation-in-syria-2015-10

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
13. Vladimir Putin's playbook in Syria
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 09:13 AM
Oct 2015

Russian President Vladimir Putin's intervention in Syria to prop up the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad is following a playbook he first used during the Second Chechen War at the turn of the century.

Putin's model of Chechnya involved waging "two different wars - against extremists and against opposition forces," said CBS News Senior National Security Analyst Juan Zarate. The strategy: use brutal and overwhelming force, attack the moderates and alternatives to the ruling regime, and then change the narrative of the war.

"Chechnya was wracked with human rights abuses and atrocities and bombed-out cities like Grozny. [The Russians] didn't care," Zarate explained. "The narrative has to be, 'It's either this regime and what we're doing or these violent radical terrorists.' That's exactly what Putin's doing here."

The situation in Syria bears some resemblance to the conditions of the Second Chechen War, when Russia sent troops into the area to fight an invasion by Islamic radicals and Chechen separatists and launched a major air campaign.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/vladimir-putin-playbook-syria/

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
14. ‘No evidence’ of Cuban troops fighting in Syria, insists White House
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 09:14 AM
Oct 2015

The White House has insisted that there is “no evidence” that Cuba has sent troops to fight with the regime of Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad. “We’ve seen no evidence to indicate that those reports are true,” White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest said on Thursday when asked about the reports during the daily press briefing.

A Miami-based research group said this week that the head of Cuba’s armed forces, General Leopoldo Cintra Frias, and a cadre of Cuban defence officials were dispatched to join Russia in its military operations in Syria. According to Earnest, Russia “would relish the opportunity to add additional nations to their coalition, primarily because they’re sort of out there operating on their own.” However, he added that the only people that Russia can get to work with them inside Syria is a “largely neutered Syrian government and… essentially an Iranian government and Iranian security forces that, while effective, have few, if any, other allies that they’re able to work with around the globe.”

Earnest boasted that the coalition built by Obama to fight Daesh in the region is much stronger. “The United States is leading an international coalition of 65 countries, including some of the other most powerful countries in the world that have made a substantial military commitment to this effort.”

On Wednesday, Washington announced that it had refused to receive a Russian military delegation, headed by Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, to discuss coordinated action on the fight against Daesh in Syria. “We're not interested in doing that, as long as Russia is not willing to make a constructive contribution to our counter-[Daesh] effort,” said Earnest.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/21715-no-evidence-of-cuban-troops-fighting-in-syria-insists-white-house

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
21. Glad Josh Earnest cleared that up...
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 02:11 PM
Oct 2015

from that report the other day that we thought Bizarre But...will there be Cuban boots in tanks on the ground?

From Josh:

[A Miami-based research group said this week that the head of Cuba’s armed forces, General Leopoldo Cintra Frias, and a cadre of Cuban defence officials were dispatched to join Russia in its military operations in Syria. According to Earnest, Russia “would relish the opportunity to add additional nations to their coalition, primarily because they’re sort of out there operating on their own.” However, he added that the only people that Russia can get to work with them inside Syria is a “largely neutered Syrian government and… essentially an Iranian government and Iranian security forces that, while effective, have few, if any, other allies that they’re able to work with around the globe.”


The Other Article:

Russian President Vladimir Putin has made waves of late with his military offensive in Syria, and now he has on-the-ground backing of the Cuban variety. One of the world’s leading centers for research on Cuba has released breaking details of the Castro regime’s presence in the war-torn Middle Eastern nation.

The Institute for Cuban and Cuban-American Studies (ICCAS) at the University of Miami shared via email on October 13, 2015, that General Leopoldo Cintra Frías, head of the Cuban Armed Forces, had already landed in Syria. He is, they write, “leading a group of Cuban military personnel … in support of Syria’s dictator Assad” and, in Cold War fashion, the Russian contingent.

The ICCAS researchers shared with the PanAm Post that the intelligence came directly from a spokesman of the US Defense Department, and is corroborated by an unnamed but friendly military in the Middle East. They report two Russian-made planes arriving in Syria carrying approximately 300 Cuban soldiers.

They further detail that the Cuban soldiers will man Russian tanks that have been provided to Syrian head-of-state Bashar al-Assad. Their duty will be to fight Islamic State forces and others who threaten Assad’s grip on power.

http://panampost.com/panam-staff/2015/10/13/miami-university-center-reports-cuban-troops-deployed-to-syria/

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
22. Every time I see that story it traces back to that ICCAS group.
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 02:16 PM
Oct 2015

Which I would guess is an anti-Cuban group. And that's why I don't believe it, nobody much has picked it up, and they would if it stood up.

Which is not to say the Cuba is not supporting Putin.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
15. U.S. intelligence: Russian strikes haven't greatly aided Syria's Assad
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 09:15 AM
Oct 2015

Washington (CNN)Both Russia and the United States are watching Syria for any signs that President Bashar al-Assad might be about to fall -- but for different reasons.

The U.S. goal is to avoid a catastrophic collapse of the regime. Unlike in Iraq, the United States wants to try to ensure some elements of the Syrian military and key social services and structures in and around Damascus survive if Assad goes, so that Syria can begin to rebuild.

U.S. officials think that Russian President Vladimir Putin was making the same calculations about the regime's odds when he began a military buildup there in September. His goal has been to step in and try to keep Assad in place -- but also to ensure that if he does fall, Russia has influence in choosing his successor.

President Barack Obama made this assessment publicly on Sunday, telling CBS' "60 Minutes" that, "We knew that he (Putin) was planning to provide the military assistance that Assad was needing because they were nervous about a potential imminent collapse of the regime."

http://us.cnn.com/2015/10/16/politics/putin-russia-assad-syria-isis/index.html

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
16. US rebel training programme 'nuts,' ex-Pentagon chief says
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 09:16 AM
Oct 2015

WASHINGTON: A doomed US plan now on hold to train Syrian rebel fighters outside the country to fight the Islamic State was "nuts," former defence secretary Robert Gates said.

President Barack Obama's administration has suspended its US$500 million train and equip effort in the latest embarrassment concerning a Syria strategy that has stumbled from one setback to the next.

Pentagon officials say that instead of training rebel units, the US military would dole out weapons to favoured commanders already on the ground.

"I think the idea of training somebody from the outside and sending them in is nuts, it's just not going to work," Gates said in an interview with the Fox News Channel's "Special Report" aired Thursday.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/us-rebel-training/2197478.html

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
17. Russia may launch cruise missiles at Syria militants from ships in Mediterranean Sea
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 09:20 AM
Oct 2015

MOSCOW (REUTERS) - Russia may use its ships in the Mediterranean Sea to fire missiles at Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) militants in Syria, a senior Russian military officer told a newspaper on Friday (Oct 16).

Russia has previously launched cruise missiles at the militants from the Caspian Sea, which flew over Iran and Iraq.

When asked if it might launch similar attacks from the Mediterranean if necessary, Colonel-General Andrei Kartapolov told the Komsomolskaya Pravda daily: "Without doubt."

http://www.straitstimes.com/world/middle-east/russia-may-launch-cruise-missiles-at-syria-militants-from-ships-in-mediterranean

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
19. The Reckless Guns of October
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 11:05 AM
Oct 2015

---

What’s the End Game?

The direction this narrative is heading seems all too clear. One possibility is a clash between Saudi and Iranian forces in the Strait of Hormuz, a vital oil supply route, a revival in certain respects of the Iran-Iraq War of the 1980s but with F-15 fighter-bombers in the hands of the Saudis and, on the Iranian side, Shabab-3 missiles.

Admittedly, there are countervailing tendencies. With a 20-percent budget deficit due to a precipitous decline in oil prices, Riyadh is under growing strain. In September 2015, a senior Saudi prince wrote two letters condemning the war in Yemen and calling for King Salman, a hardliner with close ties to the Wahhabist ulema, to be removed. Rumors of a palace coup are spreading.

A normal state might pull in its horns as a consequence. But Saudi Arabia is one of the most bizarre political entities in history, a giant kleptocracy governed by super-rich “coupon-clippers,” as do-nothing capitalists were once known.

As a result, its behavior is growing more erratic, which is why some sort of military provocation with Iran is impossible to rule out. For years, the U.S. has encouraged to the gulf states to “recycle” their oil profits for the latest in high-tech weaponry. The Arabs have followed America’s advice all too closely, and now the region seems set to explode.

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/10/16/the-reckless-guns-of-october/

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
20. Why Peace Activists Should Stop Cheering for Russian Bombs in Syria
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 11:07 AM
Oct 2015

By David Swanson, originally published at teleSUR

There's a view of Syria, common even among peace activists in the United States, that holds that because the United States has been making everything worse in Syria and the entire Middle East for years, Russian bombs will make things better. While the actions of the United States and its allies will lead to victory for ISIS, horror for millions of people, and chronic chaos in Syria along the lines of post-liberation Iraq and Libya, Russian bombs -- this view maintains -- will destroy ISIS, restore order, uphold the rule of law, and establish peace.

I've been informed repeatedly that because I'm opposed to Russian bombing I'm opposed to peace, I'm in favor of war, I want ISIS to win, I lack any concern for the suffering Syrian people, and my mind is either overly simplistic or somehow diseased. This line of thinking is a mirror image of the many self-identified peace activists in the United States who for years now have been insisting that the United States must violently overthrow the government of Syria. That crowd has even found itself alligned with President Barack Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry who in 2013 told the U.S. public that if we didn't support bombing Syria we were in favor of Syria murdering children with chemical weapons. To our credit, we rejected that logic.

Advocates for U.S. bombs and advocates for Russian bombs each see a particular evil and wish to remedy it. The evil of the Syrian government, while often exaggerated and embellished, is real enough. The evil of the U.S. government, and what it has done to Iraq and Libya and Syria, can hardly be overstated. Both groups, however, place their faith in violence as the tool for remedying violence, revealing deep beliefs in the power of force, clearly at odds with professed commitments to peace.

Dropping bombs kills and injures civilians, traumatizes children who survive, harms infrastructure, destroys housing, poisons the environment, creates refugees, fuels bitter commitments to violence, and wastes massive resources that could have gone into aid and rebuilding. These are all well documented facts about every past bombing campaign in the history of the earth. In theory, peace activists agree with these facts. In practice, they are not outweighed by other concerns of realpolitik; rather, they are avoided entirely.

http://warisacrime.org/content/why-peace-activists-should-stop-cheering-russian-bombs-syria

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
23. "...murder is not moderate..."
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 02:47 PM
Oct 2015

I don't know...in this case someone has to try to stop what's going on in Syria and since we started all of this and are incapable of making progress then someone else had to do something to try to break the chaos and hopefully find a diplomatic solution.

But, as Swanson points out....can anything be achieved except more chaos? I have hope that eventually Russia can bring some kind of stability with new strategy and tactics and a realignment of "interest" there allowing the U.S. an "out" in an election year. But, the death and destruction will definitely continue either way. These actions are a last resort. And, there's Afghanistan and its border which is of definite interest to Putin since he's closer to what will spill over that border..

--------

When you unscramble the chaos of forces, and questionable claims about those forces, on the ground in Syria, some facts stand out. The United States wants to overthrow the government of Syria. Russia wants to maintain the government of Syria, or at least protect it from violent overthrow. (Russia in 2012 was open to a peace process that would have removed President Bashar al Assad from power, and the United States dismissed it out of hand in favor of his imminent violent overthrow.) The United States and Russia are the world's major nuclear powers. Their relations have been deteriorating rapidly, as NATO has expanded and the U.S. has orchestrated a coup in Ukraine.

A war with Russia and the United States on different sides, and all sorts of opportunities for incidents, accidents, and misunderstandings, risks everything. Russian bombs solve nothing. When the dust clears, how will the war be ended? Will Russian bombs leave behind generous good-willed people eager to negotiate, unlike U.S. bombs which leave behind anger and hostility? We've learned to ask the U.S. government to spell out its "exit strategy" as it dives into each new war. What is Russia's?

Here's my position. Murder is not moderate. You cannot find "moderate" murderers and engage them to kill extremist murderers. You cannot bomb the extremist murderers without producing more murderers than you kill. What's needed now, as in 2012 when the United States brushed it aside, is a peace process. First a cease fire. Then an arms embargo. And a halt to training and providing fighters and funding by Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the United States, and all other parties. Then major aid and restitution, and a negotiated settlement in which, in fact, Russia should be included as it is located in that region of the world, and the United States should not as it has no legitimate business being there.

This is what has been needed for years and will continue to be needed as long as it is avoided. More bombs make this more difficult, no matter who's dropping them.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
24. It seems unlikely to me that things will get better while the various outside meddlers
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 04:13 PM
Oct 2015

continue to want them worse. If everyone were convinced to pursue the course he suggests that might work. But I don't see much reason to expect that at the moment. Eventually the refugee crisis and the resulting public arousal and general disorder that follows may convince them, but most likely too late IMHO..

He makes a good point, people who think violence restores order are not paying attention.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
25. Atlantic Council: Rethinking the US’ Strategy on ISIS
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 05:14 PM
Oct 2015

---

A more robust response to the refugee crisis “would at least alleviate some of those pressures,” Simpson said, “not just on our NATO allies, but provide some space to let this other great game, peace, weigh out a bit longer.”

Saab quickly challenged that.

“I think that’s a disastrous approach,” he said, “I don’t want to test the proposition that the Russians might actually succeed, and that solidifies the perception that we don’t have any resolve in the Middle East.”

Still, with just over a year and a half remaining of the Obama presidency, Saab wasn’t optimistic US policy would change until a new administration is sworn in. Until then, he said, the best course of action is to prepare a new plan to put on the next President’s table.

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/rethinking-the-us-strategy-on-isis

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
26. The United States’ surprise allies in Syria
Fri Oct 16, 2015, 05:43 PM
Oct 2015

A Syrian Kurdish militia that was initially seen by U.S. commanders as a sideshow has emerged as the strongest U.S.-backed force against the Islamic State — forcing a hasty reevaluation of U.S. strategy after the collapse of a $500 million plan for training and equipping Syrian rebels.

U.S. military commanders are now recommending a “Syria first” strategy that relies on the Kurdish fighters and a smaller Arab force to move gradually toward the Islamic State’s capital of Raqqa, just 25 miles south of the Kurds’ forward positions. The decisive battle for Raqqa could come in the spring. The stalemated campaign in Iraq and other parts of Syria probably would be left for later.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-us-hastily-reevaluates-its-syria-strategy/2015/10/15/92d62c54-735c-11e5-9cbb-790369643cf9_story.html

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