A response to the ‘Washington Post’ blogger who calls me an anti-Semite

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/response-washington-blogger

The thrust of the piece is that Jews have to live here now, in an America where we have considerable power. This is the issue Bernstein completely avoids: the remarkable rise of Jews inside the U.S. establishment in the last generation. How do we deal with this? How do we reconcile ourselves to this status? Do we even acknowledge it? Or do we turn a blind eye to it because it is embarrassing or goes against our image of ourselves. Bernstein cannot acknowledge it, but he surely knows that this is a signal fact of the Jewish experience, the American rise. He offers a long meditation on the Jewish experience of persecution in Europe. No doubt– but that was the point of my piece. Dwelling in that victimization narrative is a way of avoiding dealing with who we are today; and we are by and large privileged. If there is one story that captures the Jewish experience of the last 40 years it is this: that Alan Dershowitz threatened to leave Harvard Law School in 1970 or so unless they appointed a Jewish dean. There had been none. Well they did name one, and there have been a couple since, one of whom now sits on the Supreme Court, along with two other Jews appointed by Democratic presidents. In fact the doors opened all over our society in the 70s and the 80s and the 90s; and Dershowitz became a bestselling proponent of Israel. And the Israel lobby cannot be understood outside of that sociological frame. Bill Clinton was embraced by AIPAC over George H.W. Bush in 1992 because he had Jewish friends at his wedding and p.s. he supported the settlement project. Then in the 90s Bill Kristol purged the Jim Baker “Arabists” from the Republican Party; and Bush’s son ran for president as a supporter of settlements, and got Sheldon Adelson’s money. If you don’t think that this reflects the Jewish rise into the establishment, and the importance of (Zionist) Jewish money to the political process, then you should read the Forward this week, which recognizes that the American political class has a right to discuss the rightwing Zionist influence over the Republican party, stemming from wealth.

[still_one]

1. Well gee, it sure wasn't always that way. Growing up in Iowa, I was constantly harassed, called a

dirty Jew and Christ killer. I had a babysitter who told me because I was Jewish, I would burn in hell.

Even today the snide remarks, such as "I got jewd", and other such verbage, is still very prevalent

This country has had its fair sure of anti-Jewish sentiment, and to say it doesn't exist anymore, is bullshit.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

2. I've been called a honkey, a mic and Orange. Not sure what your point is overall.

Bigots exist everywhere, but the gist of the article was not about that.

[King_David]

4. Plays to those who despise Jews for what they perceive as their success or "privilege"

And already as you can see in response to your post you have those who would minimize Antisemitism everywhere.

Angela Merkel recently said :

(AFP). German Chancellor Angela Merkel warned Sunday that society must “never close its eyes” to anti-Semitism as she joined Holocaust survivors to mark 70 years since the liberation of the former Nazi concentration camp at Dachau.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

9. Do you really believe that I despise Jews, dave??

Really??

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

35. I'm still waiting for your belated reply, dave.

Well?

[Little Tich]

3. Well written retort.

I don’t follow Mondo Weiss too closely, but I do shop there from time to time. One of the things that I like about Mondo Weiss is the insistence on holding Israel and its supporters to the same standards as everyone else.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

10. That's what is lost on some. They see it

as anti-Semitism to discuss, criticize or hold a contrary opinion that zionism isn't all it's cracked up to be WRT apartheid + illegal Israeli colonies.

[Little Tich]

22. Yup. n/t

[shira]

42. It's not possible to read Weiss' article in any other way than bigoted...

It's a freaking no-brainer.

See #8 here by Oberliner:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134102914#post8

This would have been a good opportunity for him to take back...

... at least some of the more extreme idiocies in his original post, like the claim that “the American establishment” made a contract “with Jews to drive the economy in the 1970s … and in exchange for that leading role, the government would support Israel.” Instead, he purports to be proud of it.

....

Weiss suggested (a) that Jews are more inclined to cheat than are non-Jews, and indeed Jews don’t even recognize it as cheating; (b) that the American non-Jewish establishment made some sort of deal with the Jews back in the 70s, in which Jews provided their economic prowess to the U.S. in exchange for support for the Israel lobby (indeed, that one is so ridiculous that my fingers rebelled at typing it); (c) Jewish media company CEOs force their Gentile employees to express support for Israel and (d) that Jews need to “understand our role” in causing the Holocaust because of the “power” we had. Weiss now elaborates that he’s talking about Jewish economic power, as if the German Jew who started as a peddler and built his business into a chain of department stores wasn’t simply an individual Jewish businessman who found success, but instead part of a cabal of Jews using their “power” to undermine the Gentiles, who retaliated via the Holocaust.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/04/mondoweiss-is-a-hate-site/

Honestly, that anyone can say that Jews need to understand their role in creating the Holocaust because of the economic power of German Jews at the time and not be clearly and universally viewed as an anti-semite especially on a progressive board like this one is mind-boggling.

[Little Tich]

70. Your argument doesn't seem right.

Your interpretation of what Weiss wrote seems to be faulty on purpose. Do you honestly believe that he somehow implied that the Jews had it coming?

[shira]

71. My interpretation is faulty on purpose? Here's what he wrote....twice.

I don’t think you can forgive Hitler. But forgive Europe? Maybe that is necessary. It should not be so fresh in our minds, here in the U.S. Maybe that means telling the story differently, understanding our own role. It was never a fair fight. But we always had a kind of power. - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/forgiving-anti-semites#sthash.If861XH9.dpuf

That cannot mean anything else.

If you still don't buy it, look at Weiss' response to Bernstein (the above OP):

And yes, part of this acknowledgment means wrestling with our role in European societies at the turn of the century, the remarkable transformation that we helped to effect as modern professionals. Bernstein leaves out my quotation of Herzl on this theme; but before the Holocaust, Jews often talked about our economic power (and privately many Jews do so now, too). - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/response-washington-blogger#sthash.6wYREmFW.dpuf

He made himself even more clear the 2nd time around.

How else can that be interpreted?

[shira]

73. In his response, Weiss accepted Bernstein's interpretation of what he wrote....

Weiss never wrote in response that Bernstein misinterpreted him. In fact, he said he stated he was proud of what he wrote. WRT the role Jews had due to their power, Weiss actually double-downed on that one.

How is it possible to see it any other way?

================

And people wonder why anti-Zionism and BDS are considered bigoted, fascist, and anti-peace?

[Little Tich]

75. We have different methods of interpretation, that's for sure.

The strange thing is that I can't even say that it's possible you are somewhat right. Phillip Weiss has written extensively on the subject of Jews, Israel and anti-Semitism, and if there was any validity in your interpretation, there should have been a pattern to support it.

The complete absence of such a pattern makes your interpretation not only unsupported, but also unfounded.

[shira]

76. You're giving Weiss a pass....

You want to ignore this blatant bigotry because you have no evidence he's ever made this argument before. You won't even discuss this particular incident because you know it looks bad. It's so bad you want to see whether he's ever done it before. Then maybe you'll consider it.

Seriously?

What do you require?

1) Evidence he's ever written antisemitic crap before?
2) Evidence he's ever whitewashed the holocaust by making Nazi actions understandable in light of the role Jewish power?
3) Both?

[Little Tich]

77. Yes. n/t

[shira]

81. Let's stick the OP's example of Weiss' hate...

Here's Weiss:

I don’t think you can forgive Hitler. But forgive Europe? Maybe that is necessary. It should not be so fresh in our minds, here in the U.S. Maybe that means telling the story differently, understanding our own role. It was never a fair fight. But we always had a kind of power. - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/forgiving-anti-semites#sthash.If861XH9.dpuf

What does that mean, other than that Jews should know about the protocols-type "power" we as a collective have in controlling banks, hollywood, governments, etc.? This was Hitler's reasoning, in saving the German people from this evil collective trying to control them.

If you still don't buy that's what Weiss meant or that Bernstein misrepresented his views, look at Weiss' response to Bernstein:

And yes, part of this acknowledgment means wrestling with our role in European societies at the turn of the century, the remarkable transformation that we helped to effect as modern professionals. Bernstein leaves out my quotation of Herzl on this theme; but before the Holocaust, Jews often talked about our economic power (and privately many Jews do so now, too). - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/response-washington-blogger#sthash.6wYREmFW.dpuf

He made himself even more clear the 2nd time around.

Protocols style. Jews control....

Do you believe the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is antisemitic?

[Little Tich]

82. Perhaps you should try reading some Niall Ferguson.

He's one of the few who have managed to delve into the subject of Jews and power in pre-Holocaust Europe without messing it up too much. Perhaps if you read more on that particular subject, you might understand that what Philip Weiss wrote in the proper context.

When I read the articles you mention, I can't find any ground for your interpretation, nor do I find anything anti-Semitic about them. I think your interpretation is a mistake.

[Jefferson23]

5. The reform he is looking for will come, and it is reflected within the youth of the

American Jewish population who find these policies of the Israeli government
crimes against humanity and have not and will not make Israel safer..which
was the intended goal of the state at its inception. Will it come in time for a
viable state for the Palestinians, that is the problem. Two states, not a
bantustan. Having the political and military power to defeat the Palestinians
does not mean you should do it...there is no moral or ethical basis for it.

US foreign policy has been a train wreck for decades and one reason we
see the neocons freaked out with Obama's adjustments to dealing with
Iran. In the mean time, they, the Muslims, are the ones who are labeled
as the aggressors, they can't take criticism, they murder, they resist,
they're not trust worthy..this has been our view of the Arab world for a
long time.

It's them, not us. Even when we destroy a countries infrastructure as
well as the people living in it, it is, them, not us that is the problem.

[King_David]

6. Nah , they still going to Israel in record numbers on birthright

And expanding, progressively .... Did you know there's a specific LGBT American Jewish youth birthright program now?



A Queer Tour of Israel

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/07/out-and-about-in-israel/372272/

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

7. "A Queer Tour of Israel"

Does this tour show them the apartheid machine in all its glory?

[Little Tich]

23. Nice article.

Do you think the word “faglit” will catch on, or is it too awkward in Hebrew?

[King_David]

24. In Yiddish slang a Gay dude is a Feigel

Probably wasn't a very flattering term either , kind of like the word "Queer" used to be before it was reclaimed.
Since it's not a living vibrant language like Hebrew is there's no telling what it would be today.

[Little Tich]

25. It’s “Feigele”, apparently.

“feigele

Direct translation from the yidish word - bird
Making resemblance to being gay or dick

That Abraham is such a feigele”

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=feigele

There are a lot of Feigels out there, and only a fraction of them would be gay.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

29. I'm familiar with the word. I guess that some

are less familiar with it.

[oberliner]

8. This would have been a good opportunity for him to take back...

... at least some of the more extreme idiocies in his original post, like the claim that “the American establishment” made a contract “with Jews to drive the economy in the 1970s … and in exchange for that leading role, the government would support Israel.” Instead, he purports to be proud of it.

....

Weiss suggested (a) that Jews are more inclined to cheat than are non-Jews, and indeed Jews don’t even recognize it as cheating; (b) that the American non-Jewish establishment made some sort of deal with the Jews back in the 70s, in which Jews provided their economic prowess to the U.S. in exchange for support for the Israel lobby (indeed, that one is so ridiculous that my fingers rebelled at typing it); (c) Jewish media company CEOs force their Gentile employees to express support for Israel and (d) that Jews need to “understand our role” in causing the Holocaust because of the “power” we had. Weiss now elaborates that he’s talking about Jewish economic power, as if the German Jew who started as a peddler and built his business into a chain of department stores wasn’t simply an individual Jewish businessman who found success, but instead part of a cabal of Jews using their “power” to undermine the Gentiles, who retaliated via the Holocaust.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/04/mondoweiss-is-a-hate-site/

Honestly, that anyone can say that Jews need to understand their role in creating the Holocaust because of the economic power of German Jews at the time and not be clearly and universally viewed as an anti-semite especially on a progressive board like this one is mind-boggling.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

11. Write him a letter, ober, and open up a dialog.

You may be surprised by it.

[azurnoir]

13. seems that Rightwing Libertarian blog is quite popular with some in these parts

I remember the Volokh Conspiracy from when Salon used to run it's blogging from the Left an Right column-guess which side the blog being so touted here landed on. I dare say if anyone other group were touting something like this our continued posting on DU would be questioned and on that thought I wonder how many elected Democrats promote Volokh?

[oberliner]

15. The American Conservative Author Archives: Philip Weiss

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/author/philip-weiss/

The American Conservative is published by the American Ideas Institute, a nonprofit, nonpartisan, 501(c)(3) organization whose mission is to educate and inform Americans about the need for fiscal responsibility, a prudent foreign policy, and the protection of civil liberties.

In both domestic and foreign affairs, The American Conservative promotes a conservatism of realism and reform. A conservatism of ideas over ideology, and principles over party. In an age of trillion-dollar deficits, crumbling communities, and endless wars and rumors of war, we can no longer allow American public life to be guided by fantasies. The realist knows what Edmund Burke knew: that while revolution is terrifyingly destructive, reform is always necessary, for it is the means of our preservation.

The American Conservative represents a new voice for a new generation of conservatives.

[azurnoir]

16. oh okay then Phil Weiss had articles published there 5-10 years ago or more thanks

but we're talking present day

[oberliner]

14. We already have a dialogue going

I have been a regular commentator on his website, and we have debated this very topic numerous times.

[King_David]

27. That must bring the readership of the blog up to a few dozen

And if you count the 6 regular readers from our group it's now +1 to seven.

It does seem that Weiss does have a problem with "other " Jews though.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134102914#post8

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

30. To a hammer, dave, everything looks like a nail.

[shira]

43. Weiss argued Jews need to understand their role in creating the Holocaust....

...due to the economic power of German Jews at the time.

You don't have a problem with that?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

47. Why don't you post a link to his exact words...?

It's context day, shira, not cherry picking day.

[shira]

49. Here it is. It's quite clear...

I don’t think you can forgive Hitler. But forgive Europe? Maybe that is necessary. It should not be so fresh in our minds, here in the U.S. Maybe that means telling the story differently, understanding our own role. It was never a fair fight. But we always had a kind of power. - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/forgiving-anti-semites#sthash.If861XH9.dpuf

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

55. Predeeding paragraphs...

“But they can’t kill their way out of this. It’s not a fair fight, they have overwhelming military advantage against kids who are throwing rocks. And just watch. There’s always a new generation of young angry men who are willing to pick up the guns.

“The Israelis are acting out this anger from more than half a century ago. And the only way out is to forgive your transgressors.”

Context, shria, context...


I hope one day you can forgive and expect to be forgiven as well.

[shira]

59. Those paragraphs do nothing to absolve Weiss' bigoted comments....

....about the role Jews had in the Holocaust due to their so-called collective power.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

61. Opinions vary.

[King_David]

12. Sounds Antisemitic to me

Very much so.

In fact Mondoweiss should be considered a hate site on that alone.

Weiss suggested (a) that Jews are more inclined to cheat than are non-Jews, and indeed Jews don’t even recognize it as cheating; (b) that the American non-Jewish establishment made some sort of deal with the Jews back in the 70s, in which Jews provided their economic prowess to the U.S. in exchange for support for the Israel lobby(indeed, that one is so ridiculous that my fingers rebelled at typing it); (c) Jewish media company CEOs force their Gentile employees to express support for Israel and (d) that Jews need to “understand our role” in causing the Holocaust because of the “power” we had. Weiss now elaborates that he’s talking about Jewish economic power, as if the German Jew who started as a peddler and built his business into a chain of department stores wasn’t simply an individual Jewish businessman who found success, but instead part of a cabal of Jews using their “power” to undermine the Gentiles, who retaliated via the Holocaust.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

31. See post #30.

[King_David]

36. Kick

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

39. Thanks for the klick and yer tongue clucking, dave.

[King_David]

37. Kick

[King_David]

40. Pretty hateful stuff.

[shira]

72. This thread is now making me nauseous. It's un.fucking.real. n/t

[shira]

41. There's no question Weiss's article is antisemitic & any progressive denying it...

....should be ashamed.

What harm could there possibly be for decent progressives to call Weiss out for what can only be described as OBVIOUS bigotry in his article?

Is Phil Weiss above any criticism?

This is partially why BDS is called a cult, and why pro-Palestinian activism is likened to a religion. Nothing can ever be questioned, just like the Church can never be questioned, or its Catholic Priests.

[aranthus]

67. Do you consider yourself a "Progressive?"

How do you define Progressive? The reason I ask is that I don't agree that Progressive's should be ashamed of Weiss because he's one of their own. If anything his antisemitism arises from his Progressive ideology, not in spite of it. However, that's because I see Progressive as something different from Liberal. It's more like Leftism lite.

[shira]

68. No, liberal. I'm with you on "Progressives". n/t

[Jefferson23]

17. Weiss, his words, not Bernsteins version of what he said, in full:

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/forgiving-anti-semites#comments

[shira]

44. Weiss argued Jews need to understand their role in creating the Holocaust....

....due to the economic power of German Jews at the time.

You have no problem with that?

[Jefferson23]

46. No, that is your bullshit..you're bored today..picking up OP's from June?

Or is there something else on your agenda today?

[shira]

48. No, that's the exact ugly shit Weiss wrote. Here it is....

I don’t think you can forgive Hitler. But forgive Europe? Maybe that is necessary. It should not be so fresh in our minds, here in the U.S. Maybe that means telling the story differently, understanding our own role. It was never a fair fight. But we always had a kind of power. - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/forgiving-anti-semites#sthash.If861XH9.dpuf

That cannot mean anything else.

If you still don't buy it, look at Weiss' response to Bernstein (the above OP):

And yes, part of this acknowledgment means wrestling with our role in European societies at the turn of the century, the remarkable transformation that we helped to effect as modern professionals. Bernstein leaves out my quotation of Herzl on this theme; but before the Holocaust, Jews often talked about our economic power (and privately many Jews do so now, too). - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/response-washington-blogger#sthash.6wYREmFW.dpuf

He made himself even more clear the 2nd time around.

[Jefferson23]

50. He is not justifying nor blaming Jews, give it a rest already. He is talking about the history

from a cumulative perspective..you're reading much more into because you hate
the guy regardless.

The power he is speaking about does not/did not amount to a good reason for anyone to have
hated Jews.

[shira]

51. I just edited that last post, but here it is now...

I don’t think you can forgive Hitler. But forgive Europe? Maybe that is necessary. It should not be so fresh in our minds, here in the U.S. Maybe that means telling the story differently, understanding our own role. It was never a fair fight. But we always had a kind of power. - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/forgiving-anti-semites#sthash.If861XH9.dpuf

That cannot mean anything else.

If you still don't buy it, look at Weiss' response to Bernstein (the above OP):

And yes, part of this acknowledgment means wrestling with our role in European societies at the turn of the century, the remarkable transformation that we helped to effect as modern professionals. Bernstein leaves out my quotation of Herzl on this theme; but before the Holocaust, Jews often talked about our economic power (and privately many Jews do so now, too). - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/response-washington-blogger#sthash.6wYREmFW.dpuf

He made himself even more clear the 2nd time around.

[Jefferson23]

52. The fact that Jews had assimilated and were successful is not something for any Jew to have

been ashamed of..it is what all people aspire to accomplish in one sense or another. You're twisting it to suggest that meant
they were evil or some such bullshit.

[shira]

53. I agree, individual Jews have nothing to be ashamed of for being successful....

Weiss' implication is that "we" always had "that" kind of power as a collective.

Protocols style.

The Lobby. Our role in the Holocaust.



That's what makes his views odious.

[Jefferson23]

54. No, I don't get that at all from his OP. There has been unintended consequences for

Jews due to people who have supported the occupation, buy land in the OPT etc.

That is an ugly fact, the occupation has fueled more anti-semitism..so when a very
wealthy Adelson sprouts a new claim and holds Republican candidates in meetings
to check them out, there are idiots who say, see? It's true. Because Adelson makes
a claim he has no interest in a viable state for the Palestinians.

Same goes for the lobby..some people do not make the distinction and blame all Jews,
although it is wrong to do...and it doesn't help when that asshole Bibi claims to speak
for all Jews, either.

Some will believe it, and that becomes another uphill battle fighting anti-semitism.

Weiss is not the problem here...not by a long shot.

[King_David]

56. What Weiss said was "hate"

I think Jews know this and recognize it as such despite how others try tell us differently,

[Jefferson23]

57. Us? You might want to try and refrain away from what Bibi does. n/t

[King_David]

58. Oh I forgot the Majority of Jews

Are not Zionists in the bizarro world of some ...


LOL




I don't have "to be careful " of anything when talking the truth.

I'm Jewish ....At least it's not the same as those in this group that "lead" and speak for Palestine and they never even been there.

[Jefferson23]

62. Ah, the clairvoyant post..too funny.

Weiss speaks for himself..you might want to try it sometime.

[King_David]

64. Same could be said of all the armchair leaders of Palestine that we find all over the Internet,

Especially those that have never even been to Palestine and yet advise speak for and lead them.

[Jefferson23]

65. Look at that a two'fer..more clairvoyant wisdom.

You're on a roll.

[King_David]

69. WHATEVER THAT MEANS...

Great...


lol

[shira]

60. Weiss argued Jews should understand the role they had leading to the Holocaust....

This has nothing to do with Zionism.

They had this certain "power" that led Nazis to murder 6 million innocents.

Hitler couldn't have said it better himself.

[Jefferson23]

63. No, but do go on with your version...have fun. n/t

[shira]

74. You argue Bernstein misinterpreted Weiss, but Weiss never says that in response....

In fact, he doubles-down on the role Jews had prior to the Holocaust with their so-called collective protocols-style economic power.

So it's Weiss who acknowledges Bernstein understood him correctly.

===================

Why deny it?

===================

You really don't see how dangerous Weiss' writings are for Jews?

We're out to control....everything? To force our ways, our thinking, our influence....on gentiles? So that we can then get those Palestinians?

I'm sorry, but this makes me sick. I can't fucking believe so many "progressives" are taken in by this fascist thinking.

[guillaumeb]

18. when did ANY criticism of Israeli actions become anti-Semitism?

Did I miss that in my Propaganda 101 class?
If I criticize a particular Israeli action, or actions, does the act of criticizing make me an anti-Semite? To characterize ALL Jews in a disparaging fashion is probably an example of anti-Semitism, but far too many apologists for Israel DO tend to characterize critics of Israel as anti-Semites. It seems to me that this is an attempt to silence by evoking guilt feelings.

[King_David]

19. He wasn't talking about Israel he was talking about American Jews with vitriol and hate :

Weiss suggested (a) that Jews are more inclined to cheat than are non-Jews, and indeed Jews don’t even recognize it as cheating; (b) that the American non-Jewish establishment made some sort of deal with the Jews back in the 70s, in which Jews provided their economic prowess to the U.S. in exchange for support for the Israel lobby(indeed, that one is so ridiculous that my fingers rebelled at typing it); (c) Jewish media company CEOs force their Gentile employees to express support for Israel and (d) that Jews need to “understand our role” in causing the Holocaust because of the “power” we had. Weiss now elaborates that he’s talking about Jewish economic power, as if the German Jew who started as a peddler and built his business into a chain of department stores wasn’t simply an individual Jewish businessman who found success, but instead part of a cabal of Jews using their “power” to undermine the Gentiles, who retaliated via the Holocaust.

[guillaumeb]

20. I did read the post, and the link.

I thought Weiss' points were rather ridiculous, bordering on stereotype. But there are some people who equate criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism.

On another topic, your Canadian friend Stephen Harper may be feeling uneasy now that his hand-picked puppet lost in the Provincial election to the NDP. A lefty in Alberta! A crisis of confidence in Ottawa?

[King_David]

21. Stephen Harper ain't no friend of mine

He opposed Gay marriage. He's your prime minister... You can keep him ... Not as bigoted as the Quebec politicians whom Mordechai Richler called Antisemitic.

[King_David]

38. "Weiss' points were rather ridiculous, bordering on stereotype"

I don't think it was just "bordering "

[oberliner]

28. This kind of thing

One example from the report: a news website publishes an article about Israel destroying tunnels and receives this message:

"Congratulations, disgusting cowards, genocides, children killers. Now I see that Hitler was not so bad, he was a necessary evil and if he had succeeded he would have avoided an evil worse than the toilet paper called Israel. Dirty people, and you ask why the world hates you."

I mean, of course, saying "Israel is wrong to be bombing Gaza" is not even remotely anti-semitic, but stuff like the above paragraph, I think you would agree, is anti-semitic (even though it is couched as criticism towards Israel).

[Little Tich]

32. The example is anti-Semitic because it's anti-Semitic,

not because was written in the context of the war on Gaza. I think your definition of anti-Semitism is flawed if you actually see the example as criticism of Israel, because it's not. The target of the tirade is clearly “the Jews”, which neatly fits in how I see anti-Semitism: racism directed specifically at Jews.

The anti-Israel context is irrelevant, as it's only the medium used. Positive or negative attitudes towards Israel is no indicator for anti-Semitism. For example, many evangelical christians support Israel because they are anti-Semites and want to bring about the end of time. Then there are right-wing politicians that support Israel simply because they want to get rid of “their” Jews in a humane way, with the added benefit of having an ally in the Middle-East in the fight against Eurabia.

[oberliner]

33. Exactly

It is a criticism of Israel, accusing the country of genocide and killing children, and connecting that criticism to the fact that the country was founded by Jewish people (and then going on to insult said group of people).

I think there is a way to be critical of Israel that is not at all antisemitic, there is a way that is completely and obviously antisemitic, and there is some grey area between the two that we at least ought to be able to examine in this context.

What I think happens too often is that someone will lament, "Any time anyone criticizes Israel, they are accused of being anti-semitic". Then if that person criticizes Israel in a way that may, in fact, be anti-semitic, and someone attempts to call them out on it, they will say, "See, I told you so!" thus protecting themselves preemptively from such examination.

[Little Tich]

34. An anti-Semitic statement doesn't have to be anti-Semitism,

even though it is in itself a strong indication of anti-Semitism. For example, comparing Jewish individuals or groups with Nazis is not anti-Semitic in itself, nor is it inherently anti-Semitic to accuse the same of being bloodthirsty childkillers. These accusations are merely placeholders for other attitudes, and someone who is unaware of the anti-Semitic codewords could use them without knowing that it's anti-Semitic to do so. It doesn't mean that they are actually anti-Semites.

I think it's wrong to use the words themselves to detect anti-Semitism, because the real anti-Semitism is actually found in the connotation. It's very important to try to discern the actual target, and if the target is “the Jews”, then it's anti-Semitism. My definition of anti-Semitism is very simpe: it's racism directed specifically at Jews, and it works relatively well, because it filters away a lot of bullshit and goes straight to the attitudes of the person making the argument.

While there's undoubtedly some racism on the left, I think it's often because there are some zealots that just don't understand that their hatred of all things Israel has morphed into hatred of Jews in general. What some people don't understand, is that there are just as many anti-Semites that support Israel. In Sweden, for example, the “Swedish Democrats” party is very hostile to Jews, but ironically they support Israel and also aliyah, especially for those that are “too Jewish”.

It's also very important to remember that anti-Semitism is one form of racism; no more, no less. There are some really retarded people out there who peddle the idea of the “new” anti-Semitism, which is supposed to be grossly unfair criticism of Israel. This is just a neocon trick to deflect criticism of Israel. Stephen Harper comes to mind as one of these retards.

So to conclude, I don't think that a negative statement about Israel in itself is any kind of indication that it could be anti-Semitic.The example you provided has very clearly “the Jews” as target, and isn't even trying to disguise it as criticism of Israel, so it's clearly an example of anti-Semitism.

[guillaumeb]

80. Interesting that the person "sandwiched" a grossly anti-Semitic statement with what is

legitimate criticism. To call a true genocidaire like Hitler a "necessary evil" is indeed all the proof I would need.

But, as you noted, this is an anonymous post from a seriously vicious person and should not be seen as a reflection on the site. Even DU has the occasional troll.

[shira]

45. Weiss' criticism isn't just any criticism....

What he wrote consisted of old bigoted anti-Jewish tropes. He didn't have to go that far, but he did.

Understand now?

[Voice for Peace]

26. excellent, thanks

I do appreciate this intelligent article.

[Jefferson23]

66. Off topic..I noticed your screen name is rated 5 times in the recommend and reflected in

the total count. I don't think I have ever seen that before. Funny the glitches that occur.

[Voice for Peace]

78. that's odd.. I must have recommended it once, but 5 times?

[Jefferson23]

79. I know, it is funny..made me laugh.

If we had that feature, one can imagine the totals for a recommended thread,
that we really like. lol