Abbas adviser suggests US pressured Palestinian leader to nix UN speech 'bombshell'

[geek tragedy]

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is planning no surprises in his speech before the UN General Assembly on Wednesday, a senior Palestinian official said on Monday.

Mahmoud Habbash, Abbas’s adviser on religious affairs, hinted that the PA president has come under pressure from the US to refrain from making dramatic announcements during his speech.

Habbash said that Abbas and US Secretary of State John Kerry held “difficult” talks in New York last weekend during which they discussed the PA president’s threat to drop a bombshell at the end of his speech.

http://m.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Abbas-adviser-suggests-Palestinian-leader-pressured-by-US-to-nix-UN-speech-bombshell-419328#article=6017ODQ0QzNFODI2QjZCMTcxMEQzREFFQTkwOEJFQzlCNEU=

That's code for "the US threatened Abbas if he did anything other than continue to serve faithfully as Israel's rent-a-cop."

He's Netanyahu's poodle.

[oberliner]

1. Abbas is Netanyahu's poodle?

Which are the Palestinian leaders that you support?

[geek tragedy]

3. That presumes the existence of Palestinian leaders.

The PA and Hamas both depend on the occupation's continuation to stay in power and remain relevant.

No Palestinian leadership is emerging because there's nowhere to lead them to. They have nowhere to go, and the Israelis have no interest in giving them any reason to hope for anything other than apartheid.

[oberliner]

10. The Palestinian Legislative Council has 132 members

They were all democratically elected across both the West Bank and Gaza.

There is also the PLO, which is recognized by the UN as the representatives of the Palestinian people.

There are 18 members of the PLO Executive Committee and numerous members of the Palestinian National Council.

Is there no one among these dozens of Palestinians leaders whom you respect or admire?

[geek tragedy]

12. No, none.

The only one who could have legitimacy within Palestine and be willing to cut a deal with the Israelis is inside an Israeli prison cell.

[oberliner]

17. Do you mean Marwan Barghouti?

A man who was tried and convicted of murder and is serving five life sentences?

[geek tragedy]

22. a man who refused to conduct his own defense and who has repeatedly and publicly

opposed attacks on civilians.

Who was put on trial by his country' occupier and oppressor, after being kidnapped by troops hiding in an ambulance.

Kind of like Mandela.

Stooges like Abbas have had 20 years of kissing Israel's ass to produce results. They've failed.

[oberliner]

26. That's a lie

He has repeatedly supported and espoused attacks on civilians, if they are Jewish and living in East Jerusalem.

From jail, Barghouthi urges 'armed resistance'

RAMALLAH (AFP) -- Jailed Palestinian leader Marwan Barghouthi urged the Palestinian leadership to give its backing to "armed resistance" against Israel in a letter published Tuesday as a wave of violence surged.

The call came after months of clashes in and around annexed East Jerusalem and a growing number of deadly Palestinian attacks by lone individuals.

In a letter to mark 10 years since the death of veteran leader Yasser Arafat, Barghouthi said that "choosing global and armed resistance" was being "faithful to Arafat's legacy, to his ideas, and his principles for which tens of thousands died as martyrs."

http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=739285

[geek tragedy]

29. the language you quote does not support your claims nt

[oberliner]

34. "So civilians are targets? If they are part of the occupation, yes."

Here's an excerpt from an interview where he spells it out:

And this will continue, absolutely. So this means you plan on escalating the resistance?

Yes, of course. This means to escalate the resistance. Does this mean just demonstrations, or does this include violent acts? Yes, of course. When we are talking about resistance, this also includes armed resistance against the Israeli occupation. This is very clear.

Armed resistance against whom?

Against the occupation.

Does occupation mean against settlers and soldiers?

Yes, of course. Do you think that we have to recognize the occupation? I think it is very clear what is the meaning of the occupation.

So civilians are targets?

If they are part of the occupation, yes. They are occupation, they are occupiers.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/fletcher3.html

Is that clear enough?

[geek tragedy]

36. he's not in prison for acts directed against settlers

anyways, that's who has credibility with the Palestinians.

the PA's main job function is to protect Israelis from Palestinians. You expect Israel's rent-a-cops to have credibility with the Palestinans?

Why does Barghouti have credibility but Abbas doesn't?

Because they've tried accommodation and negotiation for 20+ years--the Abbas way--and it's produced Israel getting the goldmine and Palestinians getting the shaft.

Barghouti's body count pales in comparison to people such as Sharon and Netanyahu.

[oberliner]

42. That's true

But your claim above is false.

He has endorsed violence against civilians.

I hope you will at least concede that point based on his own words.

[azurnoir]

35. Here is what Marwan said about attacks on civilian

As the Second Intifada raged, Barghouti became increasingly popular as a leader of the Fatah armed branch, the Tanzim, seen as one of the major forces fighting against the Israel Defense Forces. Barghouti led marches to Israeli checkpoints, where riots broke out against Israeli soldiers and spurred on Palestinians in speeches at funerals and demonstrations, condoning the use of force to expel Israel from the West Bank and Gaza Strip.[1] He has stated that, "I, and the Fatah movement to which I belong, strongly oppose attacks and the targeting of civilians inside Israel, our future neighbor, I reserve the right to protect myself, to resist the Israeli occupation of my country and to fight for my freedom" and has said, "I still seek peaceful coexistence between the equal and independent countries of Israel and Palestine based on full withdrawal from Palestinian territories occupied in 1967."[16] During the second intifada Barghouti was accused by Israel of being a senior member of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, an organization which conducted numerous attacks and suicide bombings on civilians both within and outside of Israel proper, and has been accused of having directed some of these bombings personally.

This page was last modified on 6 September 2015, at 21:47.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marwan_Barghouti

[oberliner]

44. Wikipedia to the rescue!

That Wikipedia quote you bolded comes from his 2002 Op-Ed in the Washington Post.

The link to it, like most Wikipedia links, is dead and doesn't work - but you can find the full op-ed if you look hard enough.

In any case, when he was asked the direct question about it in an interview, he replied as indicated.

If you missed it:

So civilians are targets?

If they are part of the occupation, yes. They are occupation, they are occupiers.

[azurnoir]

49. here is the interview Marwan was speaking solely of settlers ya know the civilians who sport M-16's

Does occupation mean against settlers and soldiers?

Yes, of course. Do you think that we have to recognize the occupation? I think it is very clear what is the meaning of the occupation.

So civilians are targets?

If they are part of the occupation, yes. They are occupation, they are occupiers.

What about ordinary Israeli civilians?

No, noeverybody in the West Bank and Gazaincluding Jerusalem, because its an occupied territorythey are occupation. They have to leave our country. I dont like to see anybody who will be killed, if he is Israeli or Palestinian, if he is soldier or civilian or any other. But what we are fighting for is our independence. If the Israelis tomorrow make a decision for full withdrawal from the territories, we will distribute flowers to the Israeli soldiers as they withdraw from the occupied territories.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/fletcher3.html

is that why you provided no link?

[King_David]

60. In your world Marwan is a pacifist and Bernie is anti Israel?

LOL


Really ?


Where is this fantasy land you live in ?

the Jewish Senator compared himself to the first Prime Minister of the State of Israel. “I believe David Ben Gurion was a Democratic socialist,” he remarked when asked to differentiate between liberalism and his socialist views. He mentioned working at a kibbutz earlier in his life and visiting Israel as an elected official several times.

He also promised, “The security of Israel will be very important to me.” Adding that it goes without saying that Israelis must be guaranteed to live their lives with security without the fear of terror attacks. But he also emphasized

http://www.jewishjournal.com/nation/article/bernie_sanders_introduces_himself_to_the_jewish_community_in_iowa

[azurnoir]

61. I've said neither have I? but I see you've taken this opportunity to misrepresent what I've said

why are interjecting Bernie Sanders into this BTW?

[Israeli]

62. The New Mandela

Uri Avnery's Column


MARWAN BARGHOUTI has spoken up. After a long silence, he has sent a message from prison.

In Israeli ears, this message does not sound pleasant. But for Palestinians, and for Arabs in general, it makes sense.

His message may well become the new program of the Palestinian liberation movement.
I FIRST met Marwan in the heyday of post-Oslo optimism. He was emerging as a leader of the new Palestinian generation, the home-grown young activists, men and women, who had matured in the first Intifada.

He is a man of small physical stature and large personality. When I met him, he was already the leader of Tanzim (“organization”), the youth group of the Fatah movement.
The topic of our conversations then was the organization of demonstrations and other non-violent actions, based on close cooperation between the Palestinians and Israeli peace groups. The aim was peace between Israel and a new State of Palestine.

When the Oslo process died with the assassinations of Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat, Marwan and his organization became targets. Successive Israeli leaders – Binyamin Netanyahu, Ehud Barak and Ariel Sharon – decided to put an end to the two-state agenda. In the brutal “Defensive Shield operation (launched by Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz, the new leader of the Kadima Party) the Palestinian Authority was attacked, its services destroyed and many of its activists arrested.

Marwan Barghouti was put on trial. It was alleged that, as the leader of Tanzim, he was responsible for several “terrorist” attacks in Israel. His trial was a mockery, resembling a Roman gladiatorial arena more than a judicial process. The hall was packed with howling rightists, presenting themselves as “victims of terrorism”. Members of Gush Shalom protested against the trial inside the court building but we were not allowed anywhere near the accused.

Marwan was sentenced to five life sentences. The picture of him raising his shackled hands above his head has become a Palestinian national icon. When I visited his family in Ramallah, it was hanging in the living room.

IN PRISON, Marwan Barghouti was immediately recognized as the leader of all Fatah prisoners. He is respected by Hamas activists as well. Together, the imprisoned leaders of Fatah and Hamas published several statements calling for Palestinian unity and reconciliation. These were widely distributed outside and received with admiration and respect.
(Members of the extended Barghouti family, by the way, play a major role in Palestinian affairs across the entire spectrum from moderate to extremist. One of them is Mustapha Barghouti, a doctor who heads a moderate Palestinian party with many connections abroad, whom I regularly meet at demonstrations in Bilin and elsewhere. I once joked that we always cry when we see each other – from tear gas. The family has its roots in a group of villages north of Jerusalem.)

NOWADAYS, MARWAN Barghouti is considered the outstanding candidate for leader of Fatah and president of the Palestinian Authority after Mahmoud Abbas. He is one of the very few personalities around whom all Palestinians, Fatah as well as Hamas, can unite.
After the capture of the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, when the prisoner exchange was discussed, Hamas put Marwan Barghouti on top of the list of Palestinian prisoners whose release it demanded. This was a very unusual gesture, since Marwan belonged to the rival – and reviled - faction.

The Israeli government struck Marwan from the list right away, and remained adamant. When Shalit was finally released, Marwan stayed in prison. Obviously he was considered more dangerous than hundreds of Hamas “terrorists” with “blood on their hands”.
Why?

Cynics would say: because he wants peace. Because he sticks to the two-state solution. Because he can unify the Palestinian people for that purpose. All good reasons for a Netanyahu to keep him behind bars.

SO WHAT did Marwan tell his people this week?

Clearly, his attitude has hardened. So, one must assume, has the attitude of the Palestinian people at large.

He calls for a Third Intifada, a non-violent mass uprising in the spirit of the Arab Spring.
His manifesto is a clear rejection of the policy of Mahmoud Abbas, who maintains limited but all-important cooperation with the Israeli occupation authorities. Marwan calls for a total rupture of all forms of cooperation, whether economic, military or other.

A focal point of this cooperation is the day-to-day collaboration of the American-trained Palestinian security services with the Israeli occupation forces. This arrangement has effectively stopped violent Palestinian attacks in the occupied territories and in Israel proper. It guarantees, In practice, the security of the growing Israeli settlements in the West Bank.
Marwan also calls for a total boycott of Israel, Israeli institutions and products in the Palestinian territories and throughout the world. Israeli products should disappear from West Bank shops, Palestinian products should be promoted.

At the same time, Marwan advocates an official end to the charade called “peace negotiations”. This term, by the way, is never heard anymore in Israel. First it was replaced with “peace process”, then “political process”, and lately “the political matter”. The simple word “peace” has become taboo among rightists and most “leftists” alike. It’s political poison.
Marwan proposes to make the absence of peace negotiations official. No more international talk about “reviving the peace process”, no more rushing around of ridiculous people like Tony Blair, no more hollow announcements by Hillary Clinton and Catherine Ashton, no more empty declarations of the “Quartet”. Since the Israeli government clearly has abandoned the two-state solution – which it never really accepted in the first place – keeping up the pretense just harms the Palestinian struggle.

Instead of this hypocrisy, Marwan proposes to renew the battle in the UN. First, apply again to the Security Council for the acceptance of Palestine as a member state, challenging the US to use its solitary veto openly against practically the whole world. After the expected rejection of the Palestinian request by the Council as a result of the veto, request a decision by the General Assembly, where the vast majority would vote in favor. Though this would not be binding, it would demonstrate that the freedom of Palestine enjoys the overwhelming support of the family of nations, and isolate Israel (and the US) even more.

Parallel to this course of action, Marwan insists on Palestinian unity, using his considerable moral force to put pressure on both Fatah and Hamas.

TO SUMMARIZE, Marwan Barghouti has given up all hope of achieving Palestinian freedom through cooperation with Israel, or even Israeli opposition forces. The Israeli peace movement is not mentioned anymore. “Normalization” has become a dirty word.

These ideas are not new, but coming from the No. 1 Palestinian prisoner, the foremost candidate for the succession of Mahmoud Abbas, the hero of the Palestinian masses, it means a turn to a more militant course, both in substance and in tone.

Marwan remains peace oriented – as he made clear when, in a rare recent appearance in court, he called out to the Israeli journalists that he continues to support the two-state solution. He also remains committed to non-violent action, having come to the conclusion that the violent attacks of yesteryear harmed the Palestinian cause instead of furthering it.
He wants to call a halt to the gradual and unwilling slide of the Palestinian Authority into a Vichy-like collaboration, while the expansion of the Israeli “settlement enterprise” goes on undisturbed.

NOT BY accident did Marwan publish his manifesto on the eve of “Land Day”, the world-wide day of protest against the occupation.

“Land Day” is the anniversary of an event that took place in 1976 to protest against the decision of the Israeli government to expropriate huge tracts of Arab-owned land in Galilee and other parts of Israel. The Israeli army and police fired on the protesters, killing six of them. (The day after, two of my friends and I laid wreaths on the graves of the victims, an act that earned me an outbreak of hatred and vilification I have seldom experienced.)
Land day was a turning point for Israel’s Arab citizens, and later became a symbol for Arabs everywhere. This year, the Netanyahu government threatened to shoot anybody who even approaches our borders. It may well be a harbinger for the Third Intifada heralded by Marwan.
For some time now, the world has lost much of its interest in Palestine. Everything looks quiet. Netanyahu has succeeded in deflecting world attention from Palestine to Iran. But in this country, nothing is ever static. While it seems that nothing is happening, settlements are growing incessantly, and so is the deep resentment of the Palestinians who see this happening before their eyes.

Marwan Barghouti’s manifesto expresses the near-unanimous feelings of the Palestinians in the West Bank and elsewhere. Like Nelson Mandela in apartheid South Africa, the man in prison may well be more important than the leaders outside.

Source: http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1333109556/

[azurnoir]

63. yep and Mandela wasn't strictly a pacifist either

IMO Marwan Barghouthi is the person that could decisively unit the Palestinian people which is why Israel will likely never let him out of prison

[Scootaloo]

5. As Geek mentions, lead to where?

And as a second question... since when do you have any desire for Palestinians to have strong leadership?

[oberliner]

11. There are dozens of democratically elected Palestinian legislators

That is in addition to the leadership of the PLO which is recognized by the UN as being the representative body of the Palestinian people.

It seems strange that there isn't a single one of these Palestinians who can be singled out for praise or admiration.

As for me, personally, I absolutely believe that the Palestinians need strong leadership in order to be successful. I admire those Palestinians who put forth the Geneva Initiative with their Israeli counterparts in pursuit of peace, for example. Would that there were more leaders on both sides who were interested in reasonable compromise.

[geek tragedy]

13. Palestinian leaders have two possible paths:

1) futile armed resistance against the regional, nuclear-powered hegemon;
2) serving as that hegemon's rent-a-cops and poodles.

Those arguing for (1) are generally nuts and have short life spans, while those opting for (2) tend towards corruption.

The problems is that there is zero rational reason for any Palestinian to put themselves in a position of leadership unless they're willing to kowtow to Israel in order to enrich themselves.

So, no, the environment does not produce good leaders.

[oberliner]

15. The Geneva Initiative is a third path - partnering with their Israeli counterparts who seek peace

Check this out:

http://www.geneva-accord.org/mainmenu/who-s-who

[geek tragedy]

18. not a single Israeli on that list has an ounce of authority to do anything

The people on that list are politically irrelevant in Israel. Might as well form a coalition with a group of school children in Tel Aviv.

What matters is who the Israeli public trusts to hold power. And the Israeli public has thoroughly repudiated the sad remnants of the Israeli left, and will only trust the apartheidistas to deal with the Palestinians.

[oberliner]

21. Big change usually happens from the bottom up, not from the top down

We can use the power of persuasion.

If we can get the word out and get more and more people to embrace this approach, then there is nothing we can't accomplish.

[geek tragedy]

24. We're past the "clap louder for Tinkerbell" stage. The rightwing in Israel has won, the debate is

over. There will be--there cannot be--a separate Palestinian state.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-end-of-the-two-state-solution/

The continuum of Jewish communities stretches from Route 60 to the Allon Road in the direction of the Jordan Valley, making it obvious that the locations of these outposts were not selected at random. The territorial continuity between Nablus and Ramallah is disrupted over and over by numerous Jewish communities, and a Jewish territorial continuity has been created between Beit El, via Ofra, Shilo and Eli and, to the east, Shvut Rahel and the abovementioned outposts. A similar phenomenon exists around Nablus as well: Yitzhar, Bracha, Itamar, Elon Moreh and then a series of outposts descending eastward toward the Jordan Valley. Same goes for the stretch between Bethlehem and Hebron. Conditions are now such that an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank has already become impossible.

And here it must be said: The watershed line seems to have been crossed. The two-state solution is no more.

The entire point of the settlement enterprise was to strangle a Palestinian state in its crib. It worked.

One has to deal with the Israelis that exist, not the romantic notion we have of what Israel could have become.

The Israelis killed the possibility of a Palestinian state. Now they have to deal with the short-term and long-term consequences.

[oberliner]

37. Nothing that you've written here is correct (thankfully)

If you want to throw your lot in with the Times of Israel writer who claims that Israel will become a Muslim state ruled by Hamas, that is your prerogative.

I'd rather throw my lot in with Bernie Sanders.

Bernie believes in a two-state solution:

“The hatred, violence and loss of life that define this conflict make living an ordinary life a constant struggle for both peoples. We must work with those Israeli and Palestinian leaders who are committed to peace, security and statehood rather than to empty rhetoric and violence. A two-state solution must include compromises from both sides to achieve a fair and lasting peace in the region. The Palestinians must fulfill their responsibilities to end terrorism against Israel and recognize Israel’s right to exist. In return, the Israelis must end their policy of targeted killings, prevent further Israeli settlements on Palestinian land and prevent the destruction of Palestinian homes, businesses and infrastructure.”

http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-israel-and-the-palestinians/#two-state-solution

[geek tragedy]

38. the two-state solution is a pollitical dodge at this point--a way for people to avoid

addressing the reality of the situation. Even Netanyahu will occasionally claim to still support the two-state solution.

for obvious reasons--the Palestinians don't like hearing that they won't ever get their own state (though they know it) and the Israelis certainly don't like facing the choice between democracy and Zionism.

So, people still chase the unicorn that will make everyone happy.

When the choice is between "it can't happen" and "it must happen" always bet on the former.

[oberliner]

41. Weird that I have to argue Bernie Sanders's positions with someone who has a Bernie Sanders avatar

Maybe consider the possibility that Bernie Sanders might be right on this one?

[geek tragedy]

43. I'm not going to agree with any candidate on every issue.

Sanders comes pretty close.

The looming reality in I/P is so ugly that it's considered impolite to address it.

If there were a plausible two-state solution, there wouldn't be a BDS movement.

If people like Obama and Sanders held sway in Israel, BDS would wither on the vine.

But, instead it's people like Netanyahu and Naftali Bennett.

[oberliner]

45. On what other issues do you disagree with Bernie Sanders?

Or is it just this one?

[geek tragedy]

46. I don't know what he really thinks about I/P what he says is mostly platitudes.

I think his plan to tax all financial transactions--including those by public pension funds--of .5% per transaction is absurd as it is way too high.

[oberliner]

47. He says exactly what he really thinks about I/P

That is kind of his hallmark as a candidate. Saying what he really thinks.

I just find it strange that his strong support for a two-state solution is so repugnant to you.

[geek tragedy]

48. his sentiments are noble, and the two-state solution would have been a good idea to pursue

back when it was physically possible.

However, the Annexation+Apartheid movement in Israel is ascendant and is vastly more powerful than what passes for the Israeli left these days.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/at-hebron-conference-proponents-of-the-one-state-solution-show-their-growing-confidence/

Virtually every senior diplomat appointed by Netanyahu this year is a member of the Annexation+Apartheid crew.

Justice used to be part of Zionism's mission. Now it's considered an obstacle to Zionism.

[oberliner]

50. So the answer is to just give up and let the extremists win?

That seems anathema to what Bernie Sanders stands for, certainly.

[geek tragedy]

51. the extremists won. it's past tense.

Israel's current government is committed to the one-state solution. Every senior diplomat favors annexation and apartheid. Netanyahu opposes the two-state solution.

And they are carrying out this agenda--which would have been extreme earlier--as part of a mandate from the Israeli electorate.

Blaming Netanyahu is blaming the messenger. He is doing what the voters want.

The people of Israel are determined to follow a course that will eventually destroy the state of Israel and replace it with a secular, binational state.

That is their destiny, and we are not in a position to change it for them.

Hillary gets that, and I suspect Bernie does as well. Obama finally has learned that lesson too, one would gather by his failure to mention Israel or Palestine at the GA this week.

[oberliner]

59. Do you remember when George W Bush was president?

His Vice Preisdent was Dick Cheney.

His choice for UN ambassador was John Bolton.

He nominated Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court.

The Republicans controlled the House and the Senate.

The Speaker of the House was Dennis Hastert.

It sure looked like the extremists had won.

[geek tragedy]

64. this is about facts on the ground.

there are way too many settlers--evacuation is both physically and politically impossible.

the United States is getting more liberal due to demographics--Bush barely squeaked out wins, and he was the best they could offer.

Israel is getting more rightwing, because it's their rightwing demographics who are having all the kids.

Israel is much more rightwing than it was 50 years ago.

From the Israelis' perspective, they've already won the entire game, and the Palestinians have nothing to offer them--Israel controls all the resources, all the land, has all the power, etc--so why should they negotiate? Because of justice and a vision for the future? That's maybe 5% of the country who cares about that.

[oberliner]

65. Netanyahu barely squeaked out a win

In fact, polls showed him losing right up until election day.

And in terms of demographics, the Palestinian citizens of Israel are also growing their numbers and several parties specifically representing their interests merged into one and did very well in the elections.

Honestly, I do get what you are saying, but I think there is more hope for the reasonable voices to emerge in Israel as they did in the United States.

[Mosby]

2. so you think SoS Kerry threatened Abbas?

On orders from President Obama?

For the record, do you think Christians and Jews should be able to quietly pray on the temple mount?

[geek tragedy]

4. Yes, and yes, and yes, ideally. nt

[Scootaloo]

6. Probably

I don't think the Secretaries of State tend to "go rogue."

Do you think I should be allowed to walk into a synagogue and perform a blot?

[Mosby]

7. your comparing prayer to killing an animal

Get help.

[Scootaloo]

8. Modern blot does not involve animal sacrifice

No more than modern Jewish practice does.

It seems that we have two faiths that have changed and evolved a great deal since the first century AD, huh?

Now, how about answering the question?

[Mosby]

40. Jews and Christians are not asking to pray inside the alaksa mosque.

Just on the Temple Mount.

Jews pray in churches and Christians pray in synagogues all the time in the US, it's common these days to share facilities with new and/or small congregations.

Sometimes Jews and Christians pray together, my family is part of an organization that among other things holds a thanksgiving service every year, it's usually held in a local Catholic church, where Jews, protestants and Catholics all pray together.

[Scootaloo]

53. Yes, sometimes faiths share space

By agreement between the parties involved. if someone says "no, we don't want to" then that is their right, isn't it?

You can't just assume you have the right. You certainly can't demand the right, either.

[Mosby]

54. sure, but the Temple Mount is only administered by the wakf

Muslims and/or the Hashemites don't own it so they don't have the right to restrict access and religious activities of non Muslims.

It's really that simple.

[Scootaloo]

55. That's some tortured logic right there.

1) It's in Jerusalem. Jerusalem is in Palestine. Jerusalem is a Palestinian city, and so the mount is "owned" by Palestine, but occupied by Israel.

2) The Waqf does indeed administer the site. That does indeed mean it has the right to restrict access. This is what administration means. That's why access is restricted. This administration is part of the Israeli-Jordan peace treaty, if I recall correctly. So, Israel has accepted the situation's legal status.

Access has been requested. The answer appears to be no. Seems to me to be one of those things to back-burner and live with.

[Mosby]

56. I don't agree with most of what you wrote

No point in dragging out the discussion though.

[Scootaloo]

57. Semi-related subject change...

is it just me or have we all gotten like, SUPER-lazy here in I/P lately?

Me: "Brief point."
You:" "Don't agree."
Me: "Meh."
You: "Meh."

[oberliner]

23. Jews are not asking to walk into a mosque

The place where they want to pray is outdoors.

[Scootaloo]

58. Praying outdoors is easy.

Step outside. if there's sky above and earth below, it's a holy place.

[King_David]

9. I can't keep up with the "memes" of the day..

AIPAC controls America or America is Israel's poodle or Israel controls the PLO or Hamas controls Fatah or the USA controls Abbas?

It's all what're fits into the narrative on different days on odd days of the week and even days sometimes?

[Fozzledick]

14. It's really pretty simple: America is the Great Satan, Israel is the little satan.

They're both totally Evil, but Israel is the preferred primary target because it's smaller and more vulnerable, plus Jews. Everything bad that happens is their fault, and anyone who isn't totally committed to their violent annihilation is their puppet.

Once you've got that basic party line the daily details are just whatever is convenient. Truth and contradiction are irrelevant because anyone who disagrees is a Zionist-Likudnik-extremist.

[King_David]

16. Yes , I think that sums it up... Nicely. nt

[oberliner]

19. Seems like it's the other way around for most folks

There is no BDS movement targeting the US in the same way that the BDS movement targets Israel.

[Fozzledick]

27. The strategy is to focus on the smaller, more unpopular target

and not tip off potential useful idiots to the larger goals.

[geek tragedy]

20. so now you're smearing everyone who criticizes Israel here as anti-American?

Was wondering when Team Cheney/Netanyahu would resort to that cliché.

[Fozzledick]

25. "Team Cheney/Netanyahu" - Excellent example!

I see you've got the technique down pat.

[geek tragedy]

28. Well, no, unlike you I view those two as representing the very worst.

It's not anti-American to reject the policies of Cheney and Netanyahu.

You've never criticized Netanyahu here, only having defended him.

That you have nothing bad to say about a racist, rightwing apartheidista is pretty revealing.

[Fozzledick]

30. It's not that I have nothing bad to say about you.

I'm just trying to be "civil", despite your obnoxious projections that reveal more about yourself than you think.

[geek tragedy]

31. all you do here is insult opponents of the rightwing agenda.

that's it. you got nothing else.

and everyone who's ever read your posts knows it.

[Fozzledick]

32. I find your claim that peace is a "rightwing agenda" most revealing

but yeah, I don't have much tolerance for bloodthirsty warhawks, no matter how brazenly they try to present themselves as "progressive" or "leftist" while promoting a terrorist agenda.

[geek tragedy]

33. no one here is "promoting a terrorist agenda"

outspoken apologists for the IDF's rampage of war crimes in Gaza certainly have no standing to make such claims, nor can you credibly claim to care about peace or disparage "bloodthirsty warhawks" as those who cheerlead the IDF are exactly that category of person

Supporting Israel's war crimes is as rightwing as supporting the invasion of Iraq. And it's the same group of people supporting both.

[Fozzledick]

39. I think you've demonstrated my original points very well. Thank you!

[grossproffit]

52. Indeed, they have.