The terror in Jerusalem is based on a lie

[oberliner]

Israel is not seeking to change the status of the Temple Mount – freedom to worship for all religions will continue. If Palestinian leaders truly wanted calm they would tell their people the truth

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/16/terror-jerusalem-israel-palestinian-leaders

Author is Likud MK.

[geek tragedy]

1. lol, pay no attention to that 50 years of occupation in the corner

Likud talking points are as predictable as they are willfully myopic

[oberliner]

2. Do you think the source of the violence is the occupation or the mosque?

Or a combination of the two?

[geek tragedy]

3. the mosque is the spark, the occupation is a barn full of straw soaked in gasoline

if the perceived threat to the mosque didn't set it off, something would have.

Israeli protestations that of course they would never do such a thing are less than worthless to the Palestinians.

Israel's history is that of screwing the Palestinians while coddling and indulging Israel's extreme rightwing, ultra-nationalist fundyclowns.

[oberliner]

4. So in a single binational state we wouldn't have these problems?

Or would there still be the issue of determining rules about access to the Temple Mount that all parties would be comfortable with?

[geek tragedy]

11. the single binational state will be majority Muslim, so it will be a very long time

before it's converted from a mosque complex into an interfaith place for dialogue.

The parties do not all have equal claims on that place.

[sabbat hunter]

17. why don't all the parties

have equal claims?

We know from historical records that the second temple (herods temple) pre-dates the mosques that sit on the Temple Mount. These records are from the Greeks and Romans.

[geek tragedy]

19. Because that was ancient history.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

21. Misleading question, ober.

The source of the violence is illegal Israeli expantionism by the military, colonists and fundamentalists that just gotta gave their moneyshot at the expense of the Palestinian population.

Anybody would fight back, ober, and you know that.

The ANC fought back.

The IRA fought back.

The first nations fought back.

The Scotts fought back.


Even the Jews of WWII fougt back, and it didn't take them 50 years to do it.

This is Israel's blowback, and it will only get worse for them.

They have forgotten who they are with the right wingers and fundamentalist who want to take it all while they complain about being the poor poor victims.

[oberliner]

29. The Jews of WWII?

What are you talking about?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

33. I answered your query so acknowledge it without

running off in a tizy looking for more answeres.

[Little Tich]

5. No. The arguments in the article go directly against my core beliefs.

Religious rights are equal and for everyone - and they should be based on principles of equality for all beliefs. Selective rights for some is just borderline fascism - just like the core principles of Likud.

Why is the equal rights for all such a difficult issue for the current Israeli government?

[oberliner]

6. How about equal access to the Temple Mount to all faiths?

That seems to be a non-starter for some reason.

[Little Tich]

7. No. How about equal religious rights for all people in Jerusalem instead? n/t

[oberliner]

8. No? Only people of certain religions should be allowed on the Temple Mount?

Seems like a bizarre position to take for someone interested in equality.

[geek tragedy]

10. That site has not been used as a place of worship by Jews for 1900 years and not

by Christians since the Crusades.

It's been an exclusively Muslim site longer than St. Peter's has been a Catholic site.

Equality does not mean "what is yours is also mine."

[oberliner]

12. So it's cool to ban non-Muslims from praying there?

Anywhere on the Temple Mount? Even though many Jews consider it a holy place dating back to before Muslims existed?

[geek tragedy]

15. That is the status quo. Are you arguing that it should be changed? nt

[oberliner]

22. If literally all they want to do is stand there and mumble to themselves, I don't see the problem

It seems crazy to me the things that observant Muslims, Christians, and Jews get worked up about.

Like with Muslims freaking out about people drawing cartoons of Mohammed or orthodox Jewish men refusing to sit next to females on airplanes.

People need to take a step back and look at how silly this all is.

[geek tragedy]

24. Are you saying you favor a change to the status quo? nt

[oberliner]

25. The status quo seems not to be working

So perhaps some changes ought to be considered.

Banning various people at various times to various locations seems generally not to be the most progressive policy.

I think it should be open to all - men and women (and non cisgendered individuals), Jews and Muslims and Christians and atheists.

People need to get over their religious hangups.

[geek tragedy]

39. Okay, so the argument that Israel and its supporters want to change that place's status as a mosque

is actually true.

You want to strip that site of its status as a mosque.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

44. You're actually arguing for what the fundies want.

"Banning various people at various times to various locations..."

Tell me about area C!


And you wonder why the world hates Israel...and its water carriers?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

34. It's poor victimizer syndrome.

The poor Israeli state/fundy curcus feels slighted that they haven't been able to take
more of other peoples stuff and use as their own.

Somehow they seem to believe that they are the ancients.

[sabbat hunter]

18. that actually is not true

at various times under Arab and Turkish rule, Jews were allowed to pray on the Temple Mount.

[geek tragedy]

20. You have a link for that egregious claim? nt

[Little Tich]

16. Our views are diametrically opposed.

I think religious rights should be based on principles and the same for everyone. You don't.

[Mosby]

23. If you really believe that then why don't you support equal religious rights on the temple mount?

[Little Tich]

32. I do - but as a consequence of the principle of equal religious rights for everyone,

not like you who seem to think that equal rights are reserved for one religion only...

[shira]

35. You're making no sense. If it were up to you, no Christians or Jews would be allowed....

....to do anything, even tour, on the Temple Mount.

And you're trying to sell that as equal religious rights for everyone.

Meanwhile, everyone of all faiths is allowed to pray at the Wailing Wall.

[Little Tich]

36. I would like that Israel had the same right to free exercise of religion that the US has.

I'm not sure why that would be a bad thing, but it seems being that being pro-Israel means being against it.

[shira]

37. Israel already gives everyone freedom to worship anywhere they wish....

Be clear.

What is Israel not doing that the USA does regarding free exercise of religion?

[Little Tich]

42. United States Department of State: International Religious Freedom Report for 2014

Last edited Mon Oct 19, 2015, 12:31 AM - Edit history (1)

Israel and The Occupied Territories - The Occupied Territories

Source: The US Department of State, 2014 (?)

(Under heading: Goverment Practices: snip)

The Israeli government continued to apply travel restrictions that impeded access to particular places of worship in the West Bank and Jerusalem for Muslims and Christians. The Israeli government’s strict closures, curfews, and permitting system hindered residents from practicing their religions at key religious sites, such as the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, and the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. Both in Israeli- and PA-administered areas, small numbers of proselytizing groups continued to meet official resistance in their efforts to obtain recognition, such as marriage registration, forcing them to seek personal status documents through other denominations or abroad. The PA also continued to refuse to register marriages of Jehovah's Witnesses, although Jehovah’s Witnesses had some success this year in obtaining birth certificates for children born to unrecognized couples.

(Under heading: Goverment Practices: snip)

Citing security concerns, the Israeli government restricted access to the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount by Muslims from Jerusalem and the West Bank, frequently barring entry of male, and sometimes female, residents under the age of 50. The Israeli government in November stated that the INP had imposed age restrictions 76 times up until that point in the year, compared with 12 times in 2013 and three times in 2012. According to media reports, the Israeli government provided Muslims from Gaza very occasional access to the site, including permitting entry to 1,500 Muslim Gazans over age 60 during Eid al-Adha on October 5, 6, and 7, and 200 Gazans on Fridays in December – primarily Muslims over age 60. Israeli security authorities frequently restricted Muslim residents of Jerusalem from entering the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount site for Friday prayer, and imposed age restrictions on male prayer on several days during Ramadan, including every Friday and on the Night of Destiny (Laylat al Qadr). On several days in August Israeli police prohibited all Muslim women regardless of age from visiting the site during non-Muslim visiting hours. Israeli authorities cited altercations between specific groups of female worshippers and Jewish tourists attempting to break the injunction against non-Muslim prayer on site as a reason for these temporary blanket bans. Infrequently authorities would close the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount entirely for short periods, often after skirmishes at the site between Palestinians and Israeli police. Following the October 29 attack on a Israeli-American activist and a subsequent shootout in the Abu Tor neighborhood of East Jerusalem in which police killed his attacker during an arrest attempt, on October 30, INP denied entry to the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount for all Muslims for a full day. Waqf officials described the closure as unprecedented since 1967, though some reports indicate the site was also completely closed to Muslims in 2000. On November 14, the Israeli government lifted all age restrictions on Muslims seeking to enter the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.

(Under heading: Goverment Practices: snip)

Israeli police obstructed access through security checkpoints to the Old City’s Church of the Holy Sepulchre during major religious holidays, including the April 19 Orthodox Easter “holy fire” service and the April 20 Orthodox Easter holiday, which reduced Christians’ ability to enter Jerusalem and the Old City to participate in religious services. Christian leaders said these restrictions significantly reduced the ability of congregants and clergy to enter the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. Some Christians also noted, however, that restrictions on pilgrims and coordination with the Israeli police had improved compared to 2013. During busy periods the Israeli police site commander provided security, facilitated access to the site, and managed tensions between followers of different streams of Christianity at the site. Some Christians accused police of using excessive force in its efforts to regulate crowds in the Old City during the Easter events.

The process by which the Israeli government granted Palestinians access to various sectors of the Occupied Territories at times involved de facto discrimination based on religion.

Read more: http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2014/nea/238458.htm

Note: My bolding.

Just read the report and consider yourself refuted...

Edit: Link

[shira]

46. Israel doesn't restrict access due to discrimination, but rather, security

No one in Israel, whether Muslim, Christian, or whoever is denied religious freedom anywhere they wish - including those living in E.Jerusalem.

The only people denied their religious freedom in Israel are Christians and Jews at the Mount.

[geek tragedy]

9. Your talking points are at war with each other.

Talking point A: It is a vile lie that Israelis would even consider disrupting the status quo that has existed there for over 1000 years.

Talking point B: That status quo is stupid, Jews should be able to conduct sacrificial rites and Christians should be able to take Communion up there.

Until the Israelis and their apologists dump Talking Point B, Talking Point A is per se invalid.

[oberliner]

13. I don't agree with either of those statements

I just think it's crazy that people standing around praying is a big deal to anyone.

[geek tragedy]

14. that's the way things work in that part of the world nt

[aranthus]

31. It's the symbolism

Jews praying on the Temple Mount is seen as a challenge to Muslim supremacy. The Jews should be acting like proper dhimis and should not dare to set foot on what Muslims claim as holy. This Intifada is about exercising dominance, radicalizing and mobilizing the population, and creating an opportunity to make Israel look bad.

[geek tragedy]

38. Lol, you didn't spell your rightwing talking point on.

The term is spelled dhimmis.

For all of the Robert Spencer and Pam Gellar as you and your fellow travelers read, you would think you'd at least get that right.

[aranthus]

40. If the only valid critique you've got is a missing "m" then I'm doing something right. n/t

[geek tragedy]

41. Whoosh. nt

[aranthus]

43. You think speciously dismissing argument as right wing talking points counts for something?

If so, then you have a problem with rationality.

[geek tragedy]

45. It's one step removed from "death to the Arabs"

It is only used by raging Islamaphobes. No one else uses it.


'Dhimmitude' was a phrase coined by a vile bigot named Bat Ye'or.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmitude

Bat Ye'or is part of the snake pit of bigots led by Spencer and Geller.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterjihad

Blogs such as Jihad Watch, Atlas Shrugs, Politically Incorrect, Gates of Vienna and The Brussels Journal are central to the counterjihad movement. Notable figures include the blogs' editors, respectively Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller, Daniel Pipes, Edward S. May and Paul Beliën, as well as writers such as Bat Ye'or, David Horowitz and Fjordman.[1][8][14] Think tanks such as the International Free Press Society and the David Horowitz Freedom Center have had an important role in providing funds and establishing international links.[10][20] In time, a network of formal organisations has been established, with its main centers in Europe and the United States.[26] A transatlantic umbrella organisation was established in 2012.[27]

The International Free Press Society lists representatives from many parts of the counterjihad spectrum on its board of advisors.[28][29] Eurabia theorist Bat Ye'Or is on the board of advisors, while owner of the blog Gates of Vienna, Edward S. May, serves as outreach co-ordinator on its board of directors.[29][30]

It is a trademark of that vile movement, which also happens to support Israel.

You outed yourself with that one.

You are not the first pro-Israel cheerleader to do so in this group. As a general rule, the pro-Israel crowd here is more rightwing than the gun nuts.

Give our regards to David Horowitz.

[6chars]

26. article from atlantic talking about basis for current terror, and religion

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/10/the-roots-of-the-palestinian-uprising-against-israel/410944/

interesting read.

[bumprstickr]

27. The UN says Jeruaslem is an international city. Israel has no legal standing there.

Following the 1967 war, Israel declared that Israeli law would be applied to East Jerusalem and enlarged its eastern boundaries, approximately doubling its size. The action was deemed unlawful by other states who did not recognize it. It was condemned by the UN Security Council and General Assembly who described it as an annexation in violation of the rights of the Palestinian population. In 1980, Israel passed a law declaring that "Jerusalem, complete and united, is the capital of Israel".[20] The law was declared null and void by the Security council in Resolution 478 and in numerous resolutions by the UN General assembly.[21][22][23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positions_on_Jerusalem

[oberliner]

28. No it doesn't

It views West Jerusalem as part of Israel and East Jerusalem as occupied Palestinian territory.

[bumprstickr]

47. not true, but believe it if you want

[aranthus]

30. So what if the UN says that?

It doesn't as Oberliner pointed out, but what if it did? Why should anyone care what the UN says?

[bumprstickr]

48. so you don't believe in foollowing the law?