Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumJerusalem of Gold: Raisman invited to Israel
Exclusive: Diaspora Affairs Minister Yuli Edelstein invites Jewish-American medalist Aly Raisman and her family for first Israel visit.
When American sports superstars celebrate victory, they traditionally go to Disneyland.
But gold-medal winning gymnast Aly Raisman could end up celebrating in Jerusalem after Diaspora Affairs Minister Yuli Edelstein sent an invitation Thursday to Raisman and her family to make their first visit to Israel.
-snip----------------
When asked why she chose to perform to “Hava Nagila,” she said she was proud to be Jewish and she wanted to represent her heritage at the Olympics. She said that while she did not choose the song in honor of the 11 Israeli sportsmen who were murdered at the Munich Olympics in 1972, she dedicated her medals to them and she would have stood for a moment of silence in their memory had the International Olympic Committee accepted requests for such a gesture.
http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=280761
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King_David
(14,851 posts)“I am sure you know that beyond your wonderful personal achievement, you also brought great pride to millions of Jews in Israel and around the world,” Edelstein wrote. “For me personally, as the minister in charge of relations with Diaspora Jewry, hearing why you chose the song made me realize that the concept of Kol Israel Arevim Zeh Lazeh [All Jews are responsible for one another] still holds true and that the Jewish people remain united no matter how far apart we may live. I was impressed that someone so young made such a monumental, ethical decision.”
http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=280761
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Man! I love that song. What an appropriate title.
aranthus
(3,385 posts)And Shuli Nathan has a folk singing voice to stand with Mary Travers, Judith Durham or Joan Baez.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)would ever sing an anthem to hard-line nationalism of any stripe, OR of territorial revanchism. In the last last twenty years of her life in particular, Mary Travers(along with Peter Yarrow and Noel Paul Stookey)were big supporters of the Tikkun Community in the United States and Israel.
I seriously doubt that, in those last twenty years(I don't know what Mary's views on the I/P issue were prior to that, or even if she expressed any at all)Mary would EVER have sung "Jerusalem of Gold".
"Jerusalem of Gold" is a beautiful melody tied to a toxic, divisive message-a message that has now led to huge numbers of East Jerusalem Palestinians being kicked out of their homes for no good reason.
It disturbs me that the original website used that phrase as a headline for this story...because it falsely implies that Ms. Raisman has taken the right-wing position on the status of Jerusalem, when as far as I've heard, she hasn't expressed herself on that issue as well.
She won a gold medal. That does not equate to her coming out for a unified Jerusalem under Israeli control. It's important to be very careful in tying political views to non-political people.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)You think that the use of "Jerusalem of Gold" in the headline "falsely implies that Ms. Reisman (sic) has taken the right-wing position on the status of Jerusalem".
That is truly fascinating that you would think that.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)want people to believe that Ms Raisman (apologies for the misspelling and I'll correct it, not that it's that big of a deal) embraces an agenda that we can't assume she embraces.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Do you seriously believe that there are people in the world who read that headline and thought to themselves that this gymnast embraces some sort of an agenda as a result of the use of that song title?
Did you consider the possibility that the authors of the headline simply chose a popular Israeli song with the word gold in the title because she won a gold medal and was invited to visit Israel?
I think you are seriously reaching for something that simply is not there.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Here are the hate-filled, spiteful lyrics of a song dedicated to 2,000 of Jewish longing to return to their city which -- at the time it was written -- was off limit to Jews.
The mountain air is clear as water
The scent of pines around
Is carried on the breeze of twilight,
And tinkling bells resound.
The trees and stones there softly slumber,
A dream enfolds them all.
So solitary lies the city,
And at its heart -- a wall.
Chorus:
Oh, Jerusalem of gold,
and of light and of bronze,
I am the lute for all your songs.
The wells are filled again with water,
The square with joyous crowd,
On the Temple Mount within the City,
The shofar rings out loud.
Within the caverns in the mountains
A thousand suns will glow,
We'll take the Dead Sea road together,
That runs through Jericho.
But as I sing to you, my city,
And you with crowns adorn,
I am the least of all your children,
Of all the poets born.
Your name will scorch my lips for ever,
Like a seraph's kiss, I'm told,
If I forget thee, golden city,
Jerusalem of gold.
Only a seething fanatic could see what is a beautiful love song to a the city that is the heart of 2,000 years of Jewish longing as symbol of hatred. Is this REALLY how you see things?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)They'd always been able to be IN Jerusalem. The city was never Judenrein. It had had a large and continuous Jewish community. And West Jerusalem had been part of Israel since 1948 (which SHOULD have been enough to satisfy everybody). The song was written in the run-up to the Six-Day War, the event that began Israel's long, sad swing from progressive to reactionary politics.
What the song was really about, underneath the lyrics, was the insistence that ALL of Jerusalem be in Israel...a demand that is inherently unjust to the Arab majority that always existed in East Jerusalem and are now being evicted from the homes they've always lived in, for no justifiable reason at all.
Progressive, pro-peace, pro-two state solution Israelis do not sing it, since they know that the demand that ALL of Jerusalem be Israeli will always make peace impossible, since nothing that could possibly be offered to the East Jerusalem Palestinians in compensation could possibly be suffecient. IT is THEIR city too, and they have a right to not be driven out of it either.
King_David
(14,851 posts)What a load of shit !
Did you make that up?
Another one of your fabrications?
Site and Link please.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)In discussing "Jerusalem of Gold", the article makes two particular points
1)Uri Avnery proposed that it be declared Israel's NEW national anthem in 1968...but ONLY if additional lyrics were added making it clear that Jerusalem belonged equally to both Jews and Arabs(to her credit, Naomi Shemer, the song's author, said she would have been ok with that).
2)There was this quote from Shulamit Aloni:
"`Jerusalem of Gold,'" she says, "is the fault line. It was written a little before the 19th Independence Day. There was a feeling that we were headed toward a difficult war, and people cuddled up to the song. But during the war a parody of the song was written: `Jerusalem of Iron' by Meir Ariel. In retrospect, it has become clear that `Jerusalem of Gold' is a colonialist song. Wells hadn't dried up; the market square was not empty. People were there all the time, but we didn't see them."
The article also points out that, in the 19 years that had passed between the founding of the State of Israel and the run-up to the Six Day War(the point at which "Jerusalem of Gold" was written), Israelis WEREN'T singing or writing songs about longing to visit East Jerusalem.
King_David
(14,851 posts)And unadulterated shit you write about myself in this thread , you have the chutzpah to write me and expect a reply ?
Ha.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And I wasn't attacking you as a human being...just pointing out the tactics you use on this board.
If you'll stop insinuating that most criticism of Israel is based on antisemitism, I'll stop pointing out that you do that. OK?
Response to Ken Burch (Reply #41)
Post removed
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... I've been listening to it all day on my iPod -- and singing it. Catchy tune.
aranthus
(3,385 posts)
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)why aren't we hearing more about them?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Israel's Olympic athletes won't be bringing home any medals, but at least one aspect of their performance made both the organizers and team proud - the number of appearances in the finals.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/sports/london-2012-rhythmic-gymnastics-no-medals-but-israelis-still-find-a-way-to-shine.premium-1.457527
aranthus
(3,385 posts)Certainly you can check the news and see where they stand in the medal count. Assuming that you already know that the Israeli team hasn't won any medals, why bring it up on this thread where it really isn't relevant?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)oh and BTW generally speaking I'm not a sports fan and really haven't ever watched the Olympics, what I know is what makes headlines or get mentioned here, that said I did look it up and now I understand, but the Israeli team would be relevant to a discussion about Olympic athletes being honored
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)surely Ms Raisman is not the only Jewish American athlete to have won a Gold Medal in the Olympics, however I do not remember such a big deal being made of it by Israel, perhaps I missed something as I said I don't pay much attention to sports in general
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Raisman was the only Jewish American athlete to win a gold medal in the Olympics this year.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)as I said Olympics not specifically the 2012 Olympics but your mistake is understandable 
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I wasn't aware that you were quoting anyone.
In any case, I'm not sure what your point is.
Mine is, Raisman was the only Jewish American gold medal winner in these Olympics. She dedicated her victory to the Israeli athletes that were murdered in Munich. These two factors probably contributed to Israel's invitation.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Wonderful!
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)that she could participate in games run by so antisemitic an outfit as the IOC which we've been told is or has been run by neo-nazi's
King_David
(14,851 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)on the I/P issue is an antisemite. And because you caught him in a massive contradiction.
He hit you with that because you called out the hypocrisy of Israel using this medal winner for propaganda purposes after its hardest-line, most right-wing apologists spent weeks demonizing the Olympics itself over the "moment of silence for Munich" issue. You hit him in a rhetorical soft spot. Yes, the games should have had a moment of silence, but their refusal to do so should not have become a talking point in the current hasbara game, since the lack of that moment has nothing to do with the I/P situation.
He refuses to accept that the opinions people hold about the the I/P issue are totally unrelated to the feelings a person would have about Jews and Judaism. His whole agenda here is to keep insinuating, over and over again "the only way you can PROVE you're not an antisemite is to be an unquestioning support of the Occupation and the settlements-and you have to KEEP proving that you're not an antisemite over and over and over again, because the fact that you've never uttered or even secretly felt any antisemitic sentiments at any moment in your life doesn't count".
It's all about using false accusations of bigotry(sometimes he breaks out false accusations of homophobia to mix it up a bit) to silence dissent. With that poster in this forum, it's NEVER been about anything else.
He knows perfectly that you're not antisemitic and that nobody else who disagrees with him in this forum is, other than the frothing whackjobs that show up now and then that we ALL join forces to drive away.
He owes you an apology for that post and I'm going to alert on it.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)How long have you been keeping that bottled up? Was it cathartic to get it off your "chest"?
Melech David... someone is obsessing over you.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)You know that poster does that...and you know he's wrong to do that.
NOBODY who posts here on a regular basis is an antisemite, no matter what their opinions are about the Israel/Palestine issue. The views people express here about Israel by regular posters are completely compartmentalized from their views of the peoples and religion that state claims to represent. When actual antisemites show up, we all band together, report them, and get their posting privileges revoked.
That poster, for months and years now, has done these drive by, insinuating "we all KNOW what you REALLY mean" posts about people who disagree with him. It's inappropriate and it's got to stop.
We should be discussing the issues here on the merits, and solely on the merits-is that too much to ask?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)All the person posted was the word "bitter" with a question mark.
There wasn't anything about antisemitism or whatever else you are going on about here and in your other response.
You are going to alert on someone writing the word bitter? It seems maybe possible that you are reading things into that word that aren't there.
Look, if you would, at the post to which "bitter" was a response. It itself is kind of odd, wouldn't you say?
That post is the one the mentions anti-semitism and neo-nazis in what could certainly be deemed a snarky manner.
Can you not see how that post might have been viewed as, if not filled with bitterness, then at least with some sort of sarcasm with an attitude.
Other posters were happy to simply offer congratulations to this young woman; one poster decided to make it about something else - and it wasn't the one you went off on!
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And no, it's not about just that one post...it's about years of knowingly false insinuations and accusations...years of attributing anything anyone says about the I/P issue that THAT poster disagrees with to no motivation other than vile bigotry.
This post was simply part of the patter.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)it was not snarky actually, it was questioning why the word courageous was used in the post I was replying to, it was not questioning the congratulations I said that myself but again watching the attempts to spin it into some else is kind of amusing indeed, I wish I could say surprising but a similar attempt was made on another thread I recently posted too
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I didn't really understand why you introduced anti-semitism and neo-nazis into this thread but now I see that the word "courageous" is what inspired your response. That makes sense.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... you're saying to King David ""we all KNOW what you REALLY mean" when you accuse him of saying to to others "we all KNOW what you REALLY mean"?
M.C Escher would be proud
And, while we're at it, can you point out where in that one-word post David ha Melech raised the dreaded specter of antisemitism? Because I can't seem to tell "what he means" as well as you.
King_David
(14,851 posts)"8. Because that poster is obsessed with insinuating that ANYBODY who disagrees with him
on the I/P issue is an antisemite. And because you caught him in a massive contradiction. "
Thank G-d NOBODY takes your posts seriously on here..
King_David
(14,851 posts)Response to King_David (Reply #25)
Tunkamerica This message was self-deleted by its author.
King_David
(14,851 posts)(precious coming from you )
Pelsar : 'If you attempting to show that i'm a racist or bigot, Ken already decided that'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=16180
Most of your posts are out of line,nobody alerts though because not a single person takes your posts seriously nor defends your posts EVER.
King_David
(14,851 posts)
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... in my very humble opinion ... a thousand times greater than any insincere, heavily politicized, moment of silence could ever be.
The ultimate revenge is success.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... I was thinking of revenge against the monsters who slaughtered Israeli athletes 40 years ago. But, hey! That works too.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)would go to Mark Spitz who took 7 gold medals at the 1972 Olympics where it actually happened, if you want to put that way
oberliner
(58,724 posts)But don't let facts get in your way!