Israeli Holocaust survivors condemn Nazi garb

[xchrom]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/01/201211143238621501.html


Ultra-Orthodox Jewish demonstrators look at a boy wearing a yellow Star of David inscribed with "Jude" [Reuters]

Israeli Holocaust survivors and political leaders have expressed outrage over a Jerusalem demonstration in which ultra-Orthodox Jews donned yellow Star of David patches and uniforms similar to those Nazi Germany forced Jews to wear.

Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews had gathered on Saturday night to protest what they say is a nationwide campaign directed against their lifestyle, implicitly comparing the current Israeli government to the Nazis.

The practices they follow, which call for strict separation of the sexes, are rejected by mainstream Israelis as religious coercion.

Some members of the Ultra-Orthodox community have been under fire for their attempts to ban mixing of the sexes on buses, sidewalks and other public spaces.

[Scurrilous]

1. Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox Jews protest in Jerusalem against 'exclusion of Haredim'

Some protesters are wearing yellow badges to protest their alleged persecution for being Jews.

<snip>

"Over a thousand ultra-Orthodox men assembled Saturday night in Jerusalem’s Kikar Hashabbat (Sabbath Square), in protest of what they termed the exclusion of Haredim, a response to the recent outrage over the exclusion of women in Beit Shemesh and elsewhere.

The protesters also expressed their solidarity with Shmuel Weissfish, one of the leading activists in the radical Sikrik group. Weissfish is slated to begin his two-year prison sentence on Sunday for vandalizing a computer store in the same Kikar Hashabbat.

Some of the protesters are wearing yellow badges, with which they mean to express that they are being persecuted for their Jewishness.

A fight broke out in the crowd, after one of the participants was suspected of being a undercover police officer."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/hundreds-of-ultra-orthodox-jews-protest-in-jerusalem-against-exclusion-of-haredim-1.404783

[Crunchy Frog]

24. And I see that Haredim WOMEN were evidently excluded from this protest.

[Behind the Aegis]

2. Contemptable. But, an action like this will LOSE them support, not gain it.

This is disgusting on an entirely new level.

[oberliner]

3. Good to see such strong condemnation among Zionists of all political stripes in Israel

Labor, Kadima, and Likud MK's have all made strong statements in opposition and revulsion.

Anti-Zionists, however, such as Neturei Katara, are proud to join in this disgusting display.

[King_David]

5. + 1

[Violet_Crumble]

6. I didn't realise this was a Zionist vs anti-Zionist thing...

Anti-Zionists, however, such as Neturei Katara, are proud to join in this disgusting display.

So, who are the other anti-Zionists who joined in?

[oberliner]

7. The Sikrikim

From Wikipedia:

The Sikrikim are a group of Haredim based in the Meah Shearim neighborhood in Jerusalem. They gained international attention for acts of violence that they committed. Their philosophy is one of Ultra-Orthodoxy and anti-Zionism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikrikim

This group appears to have taken the lead in these and other similar acts of "protest" - there is an article on Ynet about how the more "moderate" (a very relative term) Haredim in the area are themselves afraid of them. I'll see if I can find it.

[Violet_Crumble]

8. Never heard of them. Yr post made it sound like support of this was common amongst anti-Zionists...

I'd suggest that revulsion towards that 'protest' isn't divided amongst Zionist vs anti-Zionist lines, which is the impression yr post gave....

[King_David]

9. I never got that impression from his post. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Can't say that's a surprise!

I'd be interested to know what impression you did get...

[oberliner]

13. The most extreme Haredim are generally anti-Zionist

Even most of the more moderate Haredim are anti-Zionist, as opposed to the Modern Orthodox who are generally Zionist.

The people who participate in these sorts of protests, as well as the people who have been harassing little girls and doing other similarly awful things, generally are anti-Zionist.

From The Jewish Chronicle:

JERUSALEM — In Israel they are known as people who are “in awe” of the Holy One Blessed Be He. The Hebrew name for that category of ultra-Orthodox Jews is Haredim.

Most of them live in homogeneous religious communities like the Mea She’arim quarter of Jerusalem or the Bnai Brak suburb of Tel Aviv.

The majorities are either non-Zionist or anti-Zionist. Their young men and women do not serve in the Israel Defense Forces. Their children and teenagers do not attend state-run schools, and their manner of dress conforms to the restrictions specified in the Torah and its rabbinical commentaries.

http://thejewishchronicle.net/view/full_story/16943541/article-Haredi-Jews-pose-serious-challenges-for-Israelis--%C2%A0-?instance=lead_story_right_column

[Violet_Crumble]

14. I doubt many secular anti-Zionists supported what they did, though...

Or signed on and joined in....

[oberliner]

15. I doubt many secular Zionists supported what they did either

The people who participated in and supported the protests were, for the most part, Haredi anti-Zionists.

I bring it up because I think that people often don't know the truth about some of the "Jews Against Zionism" groups that are very public in their support for Palestinian causes.

Specifically the ones who dress in orthodox Jewish garb - and are often marching side by side with those who oppose Zionism from a secular perspective.

These folks are as fundamentalist as you can get - and people ought to be aware of that.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. I don't think anyone's implied that they have...

I went back and reread yr initial post, and saw that you were referring to Israelis specifically. I don't know how many secular anti-Zionists there are in Israel, but I don't think anyone could jump to conclusions that they'd support that sort of thing...

While yr right to point out that Neturei Karta are religious extremists (the other group you mentioned are a splinter group) who are anti-Zionist, I don't think it matters *who* is doing this sort of thing, it's utterly revolting whether it was extremist settlers in Gaza during the Disengagement or the Haredi now...

What makes this one even more disgusting is they've used an image from the Holocaust that's one of the most well-known, most potent and distressing, in a way that not only craps all over the memory of that little boy in the original photo, but uses another little boy in what I consider to be child abuse. While he's too young to understand, the men standing round him with approving looks or laughing know exactly what they've done by dressing him like that, and it's sickening.

[oberliner]

19. Here's why I think it matters that they are anti-Zionist

I believe that part of what they are protesting against is Zionism.

In fact, it seems that the primary target of their protest is indeed the very existence of the State of Israel.

You will note, if you watch any video footage or news coverage from Israel of these protests, that there are numerous signs indicating "Zionism is Racism" or "Zionists are not Jews" or other similar message.

You will see, for example, photos of young boys, approximately the same age as the one mentioned above, holding up signs with precisely that message.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. Well, yr wrong about what the protest was about...

'Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews gathered Saturday night in Jerusalem to protest what they say is a nationwide campaign directed against their lifestyle.'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/01/israel-ultra-orthodox-protest-nazi-garb_n_1178420.html

'Saturday's demonstration was organized by an extreme faction in Mea Shearim in protest of what has been defined as "the exclusion of haredim" and the start of the jail term of an ultra-Orthodox man convicted of assaulting an electronics store salesman.'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4169412,00.html

'Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews had gathered on Saturday night to protest what they say is a nationwide campaign directed against their lifestyle, implicitly comparing the current Israeli government to the Nazis.'

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/01/201211143238621501.html

[oberliner]

22. You seriously have not a clue what you are talking about here

I do not mean that to be insulting; I just think that you are out of your element here and are relying on the MSM because this is a topic about which you know very little.

Have you seen any actual footage of the protests?

Rather than relying on what other reporters tell you the protests are about, I would encourage you to watch them yourself and draw your own conclusions. Even without knowing Hebrew, quite a lot can be gleaned from such an endeavor.

There are a lot of reporters who will summarize in a sentence or two what the Occupy protests are about (for example) in an article filed for a news organization - but often those who are there present an entirely different view.

I would urge you to look at the signs and listen to the comments of the people at the actual protest before you state with confidence what the protest was about.

What comes across quite clearly is that the protest is a protest against Zionism. This is evidenced by the preponderance of signage expressing that sentiment and the various chants and slogans to that effect that were shouted repeatedly.

These extremist anti-Zionist Haredim do not believe the State of Israel should exist - they believe they were there first and that this false, secular, invented, and in their mind, blasphemous, state is preventing them from fulfilling the commandments they are bound to follow.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Oh, even Ha'aretz and ynet are wrong?

Actually, what you said wasn't only insulting, it was condescending. I'd like to think that the discourse at DU3 in this group can rise above that sort of stuff, which is why I've come back to edit my initial response.

Y'know, when someone ignores what every media source is saying in order to put their own slant on things, I'm going to wisely go with what the people on the scene and in the country are saying.

Here's Ha'aretz also giving the reason for the protest

'Over a thousand ultra-Orthodox men assembled Saturday night in Jerusalem’s Kikar Hashabbat (Sabbath Square), in protest of what they termed the exclusion of Haredim, a response to the recent outrage over the exclusion of women in Beit Shemesh and elsewhere.

The protesters also expressed their solidarity with Shmuel Weissfish, one of the leading activists in the radical Sikrik group. Weissfish is slated to begin his two-year prison sentence on Sunday for vandalizing a computer store in the same Kikar Hashabbat.'

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/israeli-politicians-decry-ultra-orthodox-protesters-use-of-holocaust-imagery-1.404855


Ha'aretz and ynet are both Israeli media sources, and all sources are giving the same reasons for the protest. If you think they're wrong and yr right, then yr going to have to offer up something a bit more credible than 'I saw a few signs on telly' to be convincing...

[King_David]

4. Sickening nt

[LeftishBrit]

10. Ugh

I hate religious right-wingers, who think that any attempt to prevent them setting up a theocracy is just like the Nazis. Very tea-party-ish. And, it goes without saying, particularly vile in a country where a significant proportion of the population are Holocaust survivors or their descendants.

At least, the government and mainstream society are sitting on these nutcases.

[xchrom]

12. To tell you the truth - that photo made me think I've lived too long. Nt

[Scurrilous]

17. I think they were (stupidly) trying to imitate this:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/General/WarsawGhetto/WarsawPic1.html

[xchrom]

18. I realize. But it's very startling & depressing. Nt

[Scurrilous]

21. Agreed. n/t

[pelsar]

30. actually they are more left than right...

israeli politics and its very definitions are very different from your western version.

Lieberman for instance, represenative of the right is so against them that he wants to disband the religious ministry and and their local committees.

the haridim for that matter demand the state assist them in basic living needs, lower food prices, lower rent.

they themselves do not want to jewish govt as they are waiting for the messiah, hence they don't even want a theocracy....

don't let your habits of blaming the right for all that you disagree with define israeli politics, it doesn't fit

[Crunchy Frog]

25. I've read the claim many times on this forum...

that any comparison of Israeli government personel, police, or military, represents a most extreme manifestation of anti-semitism.

So it looks like these Haredim are, among other things, extreme anti-semites.

In any event, the behavior is absolutely disgusting.

[bemildred]

26. I think I'm going to stay way the hell away from this one.

I mean, you just don't know where to start.

[xchrom]

27. +1

[Scurrilous]

28. Elie Wiesel: Haredi 'Holocaust' protest in Israel was a 'vile sight'

Nobel laureate severely criticizes ultra-Orthodox protesters wearing concentration camp uniforms, yellow badges, says Haredi participants are 'spiritually poisoning their children.'

<snip>

"Nobel Peace Prize laureate and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel severely criticized a recent ultra-Orthodox protest that employed Holocaust imagery on Monday, calling it a "vile sight."

<snip>

""How dare they protest with a yellow badge within Israel?" the noted author asked, saying: "In difficult moments and times of crisis which Israel and the Jewish people have seen, I don't remember seeing such a vile sight.:

"I never believed we would ever come to this. What will they do next?" the Holocaust survivor wondered, accusing the Haredi protesters of "spiritually poising their children."

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/elie-wiesel-haredi-holocaust-protest-in-israel-was-a-vile-sight-1.405290

[shira]

29. Figures it's the Neturei Karta. Must be fun for the anti-semites....

The Neturei Karta are their allies vs. zionists. What they say can't possibly be antisemitic. They're the "good" or "righteous" Jews.

But OTOH, anti-semites can point to ultra orthodox Jews here playing the Nazi card in order to portray all orthodox Jews as extremists.



A win either way.

[Scurrilous]

31. Israel Bill Would Outlaw Holocaust Imagery

<snip>

"A Knesset committee has approved a law that would prohibit the use of Holocaust and Nazi terms and symbols.

The Ministerial Legislation Committee on Monday approved the proposed bill, which would level an up to $26,000 fine and six months in jail for using the yellow Star of David or the term Nazi, for example.

The bill was proposed by lawmaker Uri Ariel of the National Union party, who was joined by Ruhama Avraham-Balila, Otniel Schneller and Marina Solodkin of the Kadima Party, Eitan Cabel of the Labor Party, and Aryeh Eldad of the National Union party in proposing the bill.
Some lawmakers have rejected the bill, saying it hurts the principle of freedom of expression.

“Sadly, in recent years we have witnessed a growing trend where Nazi symbols are used with flippancy and complete disregard for the feelings of the Holocaust survivors and their decedents. This use is completely illegitimate and it makes no difference if those behind the use are Bilin rioters, haredim or price tag criminals,” Ariel told reporters."

Read more: http://www.forward.com/articles/149279/#ixzz1izDJCF2i

[azurnoir]

32. Interesting I'll have to keep an eye on that one n/t