Whitewashing Hamas Is a Mistake

[vminfla]

As is the norm with almost all debates on the Arab-Israeli conflict, emotions were high and sparks flew. Daniel Levy, an Israeli citizen with a British background, abandoned proverbial British reserve and stiff-upper-lip culture. Levy was impressive, his arguments coherent, and his presentation was passionate, to put it mildly. You can view the full video here.

While I was pleased that Levy and Mustafa Barghouthi, a prominent Palestinian politician and peace activist, won the debate, their whitewashing of Hamas left me deeply disturbed. Barghouthi cited a recent statement from Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal that allegedly commits to nonviolence. Hamas prime minister Ismail Haniyeh, the Qassam Brigades, and other Hamas leadership figures clearly did not get the memo. They are yet to confirm that Hamas will adopt nonviolence.

Levy was right to highlight that the United States engaged with terrorists during the Sunni awakening in Anbar, and now is in discussions with segments of the Taliban. But to suggest that this means Israel should now engage with Hamas without preconditions is dishonest and insensitive to realities on the ground. Problematic though they are, neither the Taliban nor the Sunni awakening are lobbing rockets into the United States, as Hamas is with Israel. Granted, one way of disarming Hamas is to bring it into the political process. But to do so with eyes closed, to deny Hamas’ militant nature, undermines the credibility and honesty of Barghouthi and Levy. Worse, it gives the signal to other terrorist organizations that while they conduct a campaign of violence, they can rely on left-leaning opponents (Levy) and peace activists (Barghouthi) to advance their political cause by using a single statement disavowing violence (Meshaal) as a fig leaf to obscure Hamas’ continued commitment to violence.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. It remains so. It actively seeks Israel’s destruction. These facts must be accepted, not ignored, while attempting to disengage Hamas from violence and move it closer, where possible, to other Islamist movements in the region that have opted for nonviolence. Ending Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian territories and admitting it to the UN can be one way of attempting to end the current cycle of violence.

http://blogs.cfr.org/husain/2012/01/11/whitewashing-hamas-is-a-mistake/

[Little Tich]

1. I think that the fact that Hamas is an Islamist fundamentalist group

is more important than its stance towards Israel. It has already done more damage to the Palestinians than to the Israelis and will continue to do so.

Hamas isn't primarily a terrorist organisation, it's a political organisation that has no problems with using violence to attain its goal of “liberating” Palestine and impose Sharia law on the Palestinians. While some people, like Levy and Barghouti tend to skirt the issue, I think it's important to point out that Hamas is fundamentally undemocratic and is only part of the equation because it cannot be gotten rid of.

Btw, I put the very interesting debate at FORA.tv up as a separate OP.

[pelsar]

2. i think your missing the point...

its not a matter of hamas/PA not believing in western democracy/progressivness/liberalness...they don't. They've declared that through both word and deed. (see foundation of both govts)

in fact i don't even believe its a discussion point...

their states (gaza/westbank) are not about civil rights, women's rights, minority rights, freedom of speech, etc its all about a specific national/cultural group based on specific genealogy getting the right create a dictatorship/theocratic dictatorship.

violence is in fact not really a factor here, its used by both PA and Hamas internally and externally, hence there is no "white washing" its just not relevant.
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and the concept that one day they will evolve into a western liberal democracy is rejected by the Palestinians in every poll and any voting they have ever done...(though it may happen for those who believe in the arab spring as, it just may take a few generations or more and few thousands killed..or more)

[Little Tich]

3. There's a big difference between Hamas and the PA.

The PA is largely funded by foreign aid from the US and the EU with the condition that the funds are to be used for building up functional state institutions, and for the most part, this has been what they got. The PA doesn't use violence like Hamas, the US and EU wouldn't allow it. The internal security is somewhat like a police state, and free expression is not always tolerated, but as an experiment in state-building I think it's successful. The PA is able to hold it's own in many ways, and has the bare basics needed to run a state. This is so unlike the wasted Arafat years, which were characterized by corruption and militants in charge.

In contrast, Hamas hasn't done very well in the Gaza strip. Their institutions are rudimentary and probably just what you can expect from a bunch of religious fanatics who are constantly strapped for cash, and who don't care much for the welfare of the people.

I think you are too much the pessimist about democracy in Palestine. If the Arab Spring is successful, the Palestinians will want to have what other peoples have, and I don't think that Hamas or a slightly nepotistic PA leadership will be able to stand in their way.

There is a constitution for a Palestinian state which is very democratic. (Link: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Palestine_(2003) ). Apparently, there are other countries nearby that don't even have a constitution.

[pelsar]

4. and so we believed....

If the Arab Spring is successful, the Palestinians will want to have what other peoples have, and I don't think that Hamas or a slightly nepotistic PA leadership will be able to stand in their way.

that was the concept behind leaving gaza..they would, for the first time have their own democratic self govt, the guys in the west bank would be "jealous" and demand their own. When that didn't work out as per the western liberal plan, it was then reversed.

Give the west bank palestenians self govt, etc and the gazans will then be "jealous" and demand change....Hamas will follow what iran did and syria did (it works), why would the hamas leaders voluntarily commit suicide?-god says that they are right.

The PA survives only because Israel keeps hamas in check, as it did in gaza. Unfortunatly the PA as an experiment in state building is doing it all wrong. They are not building a western state built on democratic values, but a facist dictatorship who's main value is nationalism....history is full of failed states, there are a few examples of making a working democracy and its starts with a democratic foundation..the PA does not agree.
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unfortunately "if the arab spring...." is far more fantasy than reality. The muslim brotherhood is coming out far more clearer with their vision of the egypt and it has nothing to do with western liberal democratic values.

as far as the PA Constitution....its all nice and western except for the single line
article 4
The principles of Islamic Shari’a shall be the main source of legislation.

Religion as a main source of legislation completely negates all western liberal values about civil rights, minority rights etc. Religious values, their very base is bias and discriminatory. Better not to have a constitution than have one who's very foundation is biased and anti liberal.

[Little Tich]

5. The events that led to the current situation in Gaza are open to interpretation.

I don't see the Arab Spring as some kind of Islamist takeover, and I don't see the article about the principles of Sharia being the main source for legislation as much of a problem. The interpretation of what Sharia entails varies widely, but in the case of Palestinian law, secular law trumps religious law, and their basic law enshrines human rights and freedoms in the secular, democratic sense.

The problem is that these laws are not always followed, and human rights are often overlooked in the West Bank due to “security concerns”. Nevertheless, the PA has solid support and Hamas will never be able to take over like it did in Gaza.

[pelsar]

6. and why do you believe that...

but in the case of Palestinian law, secular law trumps religious law

and why do you believe this?

PA has solid support and Hamas will never be able to take over like it did in Gaza.

i understand beliefs and i understand wishful thinking (see comments of iran 1979 for classic examples of both)

the question is, on what are your beliefs based on?....i see evidence pointing to my beliefs,which is why i believe what i do, perhaps if you show me one what yours are based on, i can be persuaded.....

[Little Tich]

7. To show that secular law trumps religious law in the West Bank:

Some information to show that Sharia law is separate from the secular justice system in the PA controlled areas:


2003 Amended Basic Law
Source: palestinianbasiclaw.org (scroll down, it's after the blabla)

(Snip)

Article 100

A High Judicial Council shall be created. The law shall specify the way it is constituted, its responsibilities and its operating rules. The High Judicial Council shall be consulted about draft laws relating to the Judicial Authority, including the Public Prosecution.

Article 101

Matters governed byShari’a law and matters of personal status, shall come under the jurisdiction ofShari’a and religious courts, in accordance with the law.

Military courts shall be established by special laws. Such courts may not have any jurisdiction beyond military affairs.

Article 102

Administrative courts may be established by law, to consider administrative disputes and disciplinary claims. Any other jurisdiction of such courts, and procedures to be followed before them, shall be specified by the law.

Article 103

A High Constitutional Court shall be established by law to consider: (a) The constitutionality of laws, regulations, and other enacted rules.

(b) The interpretation of the Basic Law and legislation.

(c) Settlement of jurisdictional disputes which might arise between judicial entities and administrative entities having judicial jurisdiction.

The law shall specify the manner in which the High Constitutional Court is formed and structured, the operating procedures it will follow and the effects resulting from its rulings.

(snip)

Read more: http://www.palestinianbasiclaw.org/2003-amended-basic-law


To show that a Hamas takeover in Gaza is unlikely:


West Bank Hamas leadership said to be paralyzed
Source: The World Tribune

LONDON — The Hamas network in the West Bank is said to be leaderless and without guidance from abroad, a report said.

The International Crisis Group said Hamas's leadership in the West Bank has been hampered by confusion and lack of guidance. In a report, ICG said the West Bank leadership was paralyzed and exploited by both Israel and the Palestinian Authority, Middle East Newsline reported.

"Hamas sympathizers and Kassam [military wing] members acknowledged that confusion reigns among the movement's West Bank leadership," the report, titled "Squaring The Circle: Palestinian Security Reform Under Occupation," said.

The report, dated September 2010, played down assertions by the PA that Hamas established a military infrastructure in the West Bank. ICG said Hamas military operatives have been unable to organize without a clear decision from the leadership.

Read more: http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2011/me_hamas1256_10_09.asp

Link to the ICG report summary: http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/regions/middle-east-north-africa/israel-palestine/98-squaring-the-circle-palestinian-security-reform-under-occupation.aspx

Link to full ICG report: http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/Files/Middle%20East%20North%20Africa/Israel%20Palestine/98%20Squaring%20the%20Circle%20--%20Palestinian%20Security%20Reform%20under%20Occupation.pdf

I consider the sources solid, but then again, it's just as easy to find stuff on the interwebs that can "prove" the opposite.

[pelsar]

8. your trying to put a square peg in a round hole

Article 4
The principles of Islamic Shari’a shall be a principal source of legislation.

thats pretty clear about who is 'top dog" From that principle comes the definitions of justice, minority rights etc ....the principle source of legislation. Don't forget Shari law is full of minority rights, justice etc, just like the US constitution, bill of rights etc, its just defined very differently, not western.

and of course, just take a look at what the real laws and customs that are being developed in the west bank today...its not democratic western. Freedom of speech has long been gone, obviously gays are restricted, honor killings get "lip service"

Changing a culture is very difficult, its not easy, and it takes time (israeli arabs/Bedouin still have honor killings) but if the base principle foundation is anti western, then there is little chance of anything western going in that direction.....


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yes the hamas in the west bank is being chased by both the PA and the IDF and are weak and in disarray today...once the IDF leaves you'll have a situation that we've seen in gaza and in Lebanon, be it hizballa, or hamas, they simply regroup, re organize and take over the weaker, less motivated 'security force" of the PA.

this stuff isn't rocket science. The claim is that hamas took gazes vote because of the PAs corruption, well the PA is just as corrupt in the westbank as they were in gaza. Gaza has an improving economy and they're standing up to the west and not "begging" from the west for aid as is the PA.....that goes to Palestenian pride, an important part of life.

the west bank is not so different from that of Gaza pre israeli withdrawal.....

[Little Tich]

9. If the PA legislative council tried to weasel in religious rules

a la Hamas in Gaza, they would be overturned by the High Court / High Constitutional court, just like any other secular country. The reference to Sharia law is not as religious as it seems, for any new laws (as opposed to the patchwork of old laws) must be up to the secular standards of the basic law, which provides the inalienable human rights of all democratic countries that cannot be sidestepped.

The problem is actually that the PA is run like a police-state, and that the laws that do exist are not enforced.

Here's an article from IMEMC as an example:

P.A Security Arrest, Attack, A Palestinian For Participating In Protest
Source: IMEMC

The Ad-Dameer, Prisoner Support and Human Rights Association, issued a press release denouncing the Palestinian Security Forces for arresting and attacking, a Palestinian youth, on Sunday, for participating in a nonviolent protest denouncing Palestinian-Israeli talks in Amman.

The protest was held in the central West Bank city of Ramallah; the security forces dispersed the nonviolent protesters, and chased some of them, including Said Al-Edreesy, 22, who was grabbed by a number of security personnel, and was repeatedly beaten by one of them before being thrown into a security vehicle that took him to a security base in the city.

While driving towards the security base, several members of the security forces kept beating and punching him; the youth was held 2 hours before he was released.

Ad-Dameer reported that what the security personnel did violates the basic Palestinian law, adding that the right to peaceful gathering and the freedoms of speech and expression are guaranteed by the law.

Read more: http://www.imemc.org/article/62841

Perhaps if Israel spent less time trying to sabotage the PA, it would be easier for the PA to show critics that they can take care of the West Bank, and in the future, Gaza.

[pelsar]

10. shari law in action....

your missing the base:
West Bank: Blogger Arrested Over Posts Seen as Heresy for Satirizing Koran

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/12/world/middleeast/12briefs-Westbank.html?_r=1&ref=world
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as per your example: of course your going to find some attempts by Palestinians to push forth some of their laws that express freedom, there are some who are willing to push, just as some tried in gaza (short arab spring, some tried in iran, also short....)

however as per the blogger arrest, the above example could only happen if shari law takes precedent over their civil law..and that is the problem, their base is theocratic. I'm afraid your not going to be able to claim with any validity that the shari laws have no legal standing, clearly they do.

You'll note how there is no "uprising" to support the blogger...nothing



as far as the Israel sabotaging the PA....the PAs corruption and nepotism, which is one reason why it was outvoted in gaza has nothing to do with israel and everything to do with Arafats legacy.....just a bit history of what arafat did to a real grass roots efforts that had serious gains and hope before his return