Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumThe Israel lobby at its intimidating worst – in Britain
http://972mag.com/the-israel-lobby-at-its-intimidating-worst-in-britain/66931/The view in Israel of British Jewry is that they’re cowed by traditional British anti-Semitism and running scared from the “Muslim takeover” of the country. They’re not as chutzpahdik as the American Jews, supposedly. But I think Israel is selling the British Jews short, or at least their leaders. For the last month, the country’s Jewish machers have been smearing a member of Parliament as an anti-Semite with the sort of cynicism and relentlessness that could make their American counterparts envious. Chuck Hagel, meet David Ward.
A month ago, on the eve of International Holocaust Remembrance Day, Ward, an MP from the Liberal Democratic party, posted this statement on his website:
Having visited Auschwitz twice – once with my family and once with local schools – I am saddened that the Jews, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution during the Holocaust, could within a few years of liberation from the death camps be inflicting atrocities on Palestinians in the new State of Israel and continue to do so on a daily basis in the West Bank and Gaza.
Does that sound anti-Semitic? To the Board of Deputies of British Jews, the Jewish Leadership Council and other stalwart communal bodies, it most certainly does. They immediately seized on Ward’s use of the term “the Jews” to accuse him of being an anti-Semite, and since then have been pressuring the Lib Dems to teach him a lesson. The party has obliged, chastising Ward publicly and ordering him this week to consult the party’s “Friends of Israel” organization to “identify and agree [on] language that will be proportionate and precise” when speaking out on the Mideast conflict, according to yesterday’s Jerusalem Post. (Note: In its properly outraged coverage of this story, the Jerusalem Post has taken to omitting Ward’s opening phrase, “Having visited Auschwitz twice – once with my family and once with local schools,” when quoting the statement from his website. Wonder why.)
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shira
(30,109 posts)Having visited southern slave plantations twice, I am saddened that the Blacks, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution for centuries, could within a few years after abolition be........
or...
Having visited former colonized mideast land, I am saddened that the Arabs...could within a few years after....
Yeah.
It stinks.
Really bad.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Enough said.
shira
(30,109 posts)
TomClash
(11,344 posts)What exactly. What ethnicity did they try to cleanse?
Nothing. There is no comparison because reconstruction in the US and Israeli acts after 1948.
This is just racist crap, however unintentional it may be.
shira
(30,109 posts)Haters will find something wrong with entire groups of people.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
LeftishBrit
(41,203 posts)I don't think that in isolation any of these statements are so terrible. I've said things very much like your second one myself - about many countries.
If people say that Israelis in general are just like Nazis, or imply that the Holocaust was deserved or not that bad because Jews are likely to do the same when they come to power - well, that is very awful and antisemitic. But I have said myself that Jews in particular should know the dangers of far-right nationalist political parties (this doesn't just refer to the Nazis, but to all xenophobic parties, down to the present day and the BNP and Jobbik). And that it is particularly ironic when female politicians attack women's rights or oppose birth control. And that right-wing politicians from originally poor families are trampling on their ancestors' graves. Some would probably consider all these statements unacceptable; I clearly don't. There are lines to be drawn about what should be said, in what context, about whom. Some would call it political correctness; some (often the same ones when it's about a group to which they belong, or which they support) would call it basic decency and good manners. And people can draw the lines at different points - though there are some statements that clearly go over it.
As regards David Ward, the article is over the top, as nothing has been done to him, except criticism; and politicians need criticism, and get it every day. Criticism is not the same thing as suppression.
My own opinion about David Ward is that he should worry less about Israel, and more about the fact that his own once-left-of-centre political party is now in coalition with the Tories and enabling the semi-privatization of the NHS, disastrous cuts in public services, and the crushing of poor, sick and disabled people.
shira
(30,109 posts)How is someone vaguely familiar with I/P to take this statement?
Other than that the Jews in Israel are killing Palestinians, are mean & awful, and that they should know better than to act like their former persecutors? That the Jews kill for no other reason than hatred...? Just like the Nazis...
kayecy
(1,417 posts)I accept that many Jews are super-sensetive to the exact words used about Israelis and Jews.
Couldn't Ward just have been comparing Jewish victims with Palestinian victims?......Admitedly there is no comparison as to the degree and deliberateness of the persecution but its victims are victims....Perhaps you don't think there are any Palestinian victims of Israel's creation and on-going occupation?
shira
(30,109 posts)
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)numerous human rights reports over many years one can use to substantiate 'inflicting atrocities on Palestinians'
to be an accurate description.
This is rich, ask how you can word any condemnation:
“identify and agree language that will be proportionate and precise” when speaking out on the Mideast conflict,
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)every parcel of stolen land, every dead Arab was done to death in a good cause.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...of perpetrating the same crimes against Palestinians? In effect calling them Nazis? And doing so on Holocaust Memorial Day?
Tell me, what "lesson" should those Jews from the Holocaust era, the Jews, of all people - what should they have learned?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Keep it up, your responses only highlight the concerns expressed in the OP.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat Mar 2, 2013, 09:56 AM - Edit history (1)
He forgot he was supposed to criticize Israel, Israelis, Zionists....
Remember that?
Oops!
He accused the Jews of malicious intent to harm innocents. No context at all. As if they're not under threat and being constantly attacked by a ruthless enemy (make that plural 'enemies') sworn to their annihilation. No, the Jews are just evil bastards, thieves, baby killers....
To then bring up the Holocaust on top of this as a blunt instrument is Jew baiting par excellence.
This is beyond disgusting and no one should be defending or justifying it.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Are you pissed because a British MP dare say what the truth on the ground is?
Ward did criticize Israel, Shira. He accused the state of Israel of "inflicting atrocities on Palestinians" on a daily basis in the West Bank and Gaza.
I understand that you would rather have Ward use Israeli or Zionist, but Israel was not yet a state and to say that all who suffered in the holocaust were Zionists?
shira
(30,109 posts)...dedicated to fighting hatred. Just as Duke's criticism of Jews can be hateful, so can Ward's.
That you dismiss all the major Jewish organizations committed to fighting hatred says something about you. It's really bad you think most of those Jewish organizations just play the antisemitism card in some act of bad faith to deflect all criticism of Israel.
I doubt you'd ever have the balls to accuse any other minority group like that, dedicated to fighting bigotry and hatred.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Duke was a Grand Wizard of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. He's also a real anti-Semite. I'm sure you know that and know the difference between somebody like him and PM Ward, but that wouldn't serve your purpose here.
But you know that.
The Klan is a real hate group, Shira. The Klan terrorized the freed slaves, their children, their grandchildren, civil rights workers, Freedom Riders and anybody that dared question them.
And you equate MP David Ward with a Klansman, really? You're really are reaching a new low.
That proves everything that has been said on this issue and proves what the article was making a point on.
We can't reach you , Shira. We know we can't.
You defend everything Israeli does badly as if it is being victimized and then demonize the critics, Shira. Depo Provera shots, separate but unequal, shooting kids in the back, Gay rights advocates critical of Israel, illegal settlements and politicians...anybody that takes 5 minutes to look at MP Wards website can see why he was a target.
And now you want to target me...label me...silence me? Gee, really? Who haven't you accused in I/P that is critical of Israel??
1) No, that was an outright fabrication...very disingenuous on your part, Shira.
2) No, I have never said that, anything like that, or believe that, Shira, but I have criticized Israel a lot. The criticism is warranted, and if that just burns some people's ass then good. I hope it gives them pause to think about it a little more.
Now that that part is out of the way, if you are going to call me an anti-Semite next then just get it over with and stop all the theatrics and hyperventilating. It's embarrassing to see you imply it.
shira
(30,109 posts)...dedicated to fighting antisemitism. Why are they wrong about Ward's choice of words?
I never said Ward is David Duke. I wrote that he did a David Duke. His mask slipped and he was called to the mat for it.
Now explain to me why you disagree with all major Jewish organizations dedicated to fighting bigotry and hatred. Why are they wrong to criticize Ward bigoted postings?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=34081
Splitting hairs again? Which one is it, Shira, really? You equated the two; like implying that somebody is a Nazi or a Hitler.
It's disingenuous, dishonest and a now a complete fabrication to say you didn't so what you just did do.
Language aside, Shira, you're really bad at that kind of character assassination. Amateurish.
Let me leave you with the words of Larry Derfner. He sums the article up here.
I’m not talking about Diaspora Jewry in general, who remain disproportionately involved in human rights causes. I am talking about the recognized Diaspora Jewish leadership, the AIPAC types, the Board of Deputies types. By defending Israel’s subjugation of the Palestinians, especially by conscripting the Six Million to do it, they betray Jewish history. It is MP David Ward, in this episode, who honors it.
shira
(30,109 posts)For some reason you seem to believe you know what antisemitism is, as opposed to the major Jewish organizations dedicated to fighting it. You say they are wrong WRT Ward and you feel they're using the antisemitism card in bad faith and dishonoring the Holocaust in order to defend Israel from all criticism.
That's one helluva charge.
I want to know why you believe you're more an expert on antisemitic bigotry than they are.
========
You should really stop quoting Derfner. He defended Greta Berlin's gutter antisemitism. He's hardly an authority on the subject.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)These experts are just people, Shira. Like I said to you before, if you act like a hammer then everything appears like a nail.
Speaking of experts; you are seemingly an over-the-top expert on implying people are like David Duke.
But none of this is the real argument. This is.
How the British Board of Jewish Deputies and its allies are smearing a decent critic of Israel as an anti-Semite – and the success they’re having.
MP Ward is an open critic of Israel, and you never bring that up. None of the "experts" do either. Gee, I wonder why.
Had he used the correct terminology, IMHO, he would still have been attacked. All critics usually are when they speak out against oppression.
It's not much of a Hellofacharge, Shira, as it is an simple observation.
BTW: I truly don't care if Derfner makes you cry on a daily basis either. When you are crying the truth can't be far behind.
shira
(30,109 posts)....and you don't have a problem with that? In fact, you'll continue to post articles by Derfner defending bigotry that all major mainstream Jewish organizations are dedicated to fighting?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)and silence critics of Israel.
I hope they are looking forward to more of 972 in the future. I may not always be first to post it, but somebody will. Israel deserves the criticism it gets; just like any other country when it is in the wrong on issues.
shira
(30,109 posts)Do you know the difference b/w criticism and demonization?
I'll assume you don't, since you don't seem to understand very much about I/P or what bigotry vs. Jews or Arabs entails.
Criticise - don't demonise
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/feb/09/independentvoices
Read that and then let me know if you understand the difference b/w criticism of Israel and demonization.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Yes, I do.
Thanks for playing.
On edit: everybody seemingly demonizes Israel. The UN, International community, any human rights group that speaks unfavorably of the....anybody.
You have even called the UN the KKK.
So spare DU what you consider demonization.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)May they keep you company.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I do appreciate that more DUers might be able to see you in action and learn what to expect when conversing with you.
All my best.
RDO
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Are you saying that the number of perpetrators who unfairly attack Israel somehow implies that they are innocent of the charge? That doesn't seem to have much logic behind it. It is essentially saying that if enough states and groups embrace anti-semitic beliefs then those beliefs must not be anti-semitic. Which obviously makes little sense.
The UN and the International Community are one and the same. And based on the number of Arab and Muslim states which are inherently positioned to critique Israel, regardless of the validity of said critiques, it isn't surprising why Israel is frequently judged by a double standard. Other states frequently act according to their interests, not necessarily what is most ethical or just. And Arab states have oil, natural gas and a host of politically relevant assets on offer, while Israel has no natural resources and few political advantages to offer potential allies. Thus it is the only UN member state ineligible for a seat on the Security Council among other things.
Try and think of some NGOs that criticize Israel yet aren't considered unfairly anti-Israel. They exist.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)It seems with your fist line that you are ready to charge anybody, damn anybody and hang everybody that criticizes Israel.
Yes, all those faceless perpetrators unfairly attack Israel and all want it to fail.
Is there any difference to you between Hizbolla, Hamas and David Ward?
What utter and complete bullshit, but go with whatever fantasies keep you warm at night.
You know what? I'm really not impressed with your victimization sub threads.
So don't worry about writing me off. I'm writing you off.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Really? Read it again in that case. I have no problems with honest criticism of Israel. There's plenty there to criticize after all.
But there's a huge difference between legitimate criticism and demonization.
There's a great deal of unfair criticism of Israel. Are you really arguing otherwise?
Hyperbole hardly does much to advance your case. So I guess any criticism of anti-Semitic statements aren't well founded unless the perpetrator is an outright terrorist?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)to drive your narrative then shrill away.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat Mar 2, 2013, 10:08 AM - Edit history (1)
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Laughter will suffice.
shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Or do you want to talk about another flotilla to a high, landlocked, mountainous region?
shira
(30,109 posts)Except… there is still one anti-Israel argument that makes my jaw drop. And it is one that is made with unfortunate frequency. It is the "they-of-all-people" argument: the suggestion that the Jews, having faced extraordinary persecution, should know better than anyone not to be oppressors.
Put aside for a moment that the "oppression" which proponents of this argument are accusing Israel of committing is usually imaginary. When directed by gentiles towards Jews, the "they-of-all-people" argument is in its very essence so fundamentally ill-judged and unjust, and voiced with such a breathtaking lack of self-awareness, that my spirit flags when I hear it.
.....
Let us strip the "they-of-all-people" argument down to its very basics: gentiles telling Jews that we killed six million of your people and that as a result it is you, not us, who have lessons to learn; that it is you, not us, who need to clean up your act. It is an argument of atrocious, spiteful insanity. Do not accept it; turn it back on those who offer it. For it is us, not you, who should know better.
http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/comment/70466/turn-vile-claim-its-head
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Let's reread that quote again.
Having visited Auschwitz twice – once with my family and once with local schools – I am saddened that the Jews, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution during the Holocaust, could within a few years of liberation from the death camps be inflicting atrocities on Palestinians in the new State of Israel and continue to do so on a daily basis in the West Bank and Gaza.
So, no, let's not put aside "oppression" for the moment. It's alive and well fed in Israel.
Let's not put aside that Germany killed many besides the Jews during the Holocaust. They Nazis were gentiles.
Let's also not forget how the Allies that landed, fought, died and liberated Europe and the oppressed were of many nationalities and religions.
Of the Gentiles many were good, some were evil, but that is not the issue.
The issue was the OP where a politician that spoke out was targeted by those who will try to silence him from speaking out.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)By far the largest group were the Jews: 6 million. Romani, Poles, Russians, the weak, the special, those that spoke out etc., were of the 5 million others that were victims of the Holocaust.
The Russians (Soviets) were criticized a lot during the cold war. They lost 20 million alone in the Great War.
But I digress. It is not about numbers, it is about oppression: oppression of the Palestinians, and apparently oppression of a British Politician that probably just wants this to go away.
He at the very least has stuck to his guns on this. Most politicians just back down and run if it gets too hot.
So when do the shrill posts about David Duke start to show up?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Cos your post smells like its heading over a "line ".
So please explain it to us all, in case anyone is mistaken ( I hope that I am )
delrem
(9,688 posts)Some would say that "interpreting" a person's words by putting quite different words in their mouths, words that are indeed shameful *if they were said* but which *were not said*, then using that falsification as proof justifying accusations of racism in a pouring forth of absolute vitriol is way way over a line.
But if someone has an anything goes as long as *I* say it but *you* can't say it without being damned for it kind of mentality, perhaps those particular lines aren't perceptible - perhaps the only thing perceptible is a lot of shrieking.
King_David
(14,851 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)What is this mysterious line you are accusing me of?
King_David
(14,851 posts)imagery to justify many things.
I've seen it being used ALL over the web with different interpretation .A lot of times nasty.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I never wrote anything of the sort.
I did write this.
It is not about numbers, it is about oppression: oppression of the Palestinians, and apparently oppression of a British Politician that probably just wants this to go away.
So are you going to cross the imaginary line and call me an anti-Semite? You'd be in error if you did.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)What are you trying to say?
The politicians comment has been criticized. No one was attempting to silence him or prevent him from critiquing Israeli policy, they were debating a specific comment he made as being unfair, innappropriate and born of anti-Semitic tropes. All fair criticisms, especially of a politician's speech. To compare such necessary speech with its opposite, censorship, is ridiculous. To imply that it amounts to oppression though, that is a truly odious implication; one that conflates necessary oral criticism with a human rights crime while minimizing real victims of oppression and the abuses that they constantly face.
Not to mention, the criticism made is entirely fair. This isn't a case of demonizing anyone who dares critique Israel. It's a case of comparing the I/P conflict, (which is far from a one sided story between an evil antagonist and innocent victim), to the most cruel example of genocide perpetrated against victims who were truly guilty of nothing beyond existing as a specific ethnicity. It implies similarities exist between the holocaust and I/P conflict, casting Israel in the role of Germany.
In truth, the holocaust DID teach Israel certain lessons that have been applied to this conflict. Not that they should act or not act as Germany did, but rather that to survive they must be responsible for their own security. For the British to critque Israel's methods of protecting its citizens by way of holocaust learned lessons is both gross and tone deaf considering its own state's abject refusal to help Jewish refugees 65 years ago. Ironically, many of the most important lessons Israel learned from that time were those taught by Britain herself.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)---
There is a huge operation out there, a machine almost, which is designed to protect the state of Israel from criticism. And that comes into play very, very quickly and focuses intensely on anyone who’s seen to criticize the State of Israel. And so I end up looking at what happened to me, whether I should use this word, whether I should use that word – and that is winning, for them.
Now let's get back to the whole Palestinian issue that this politician was talking about. The quote by David Ward never compared the Jews to the Nazis as Shira writes, or Germans as you write, he sis say this.
Now he didn't say Nazis or Germans. He did say inflicting atrocities on Palestinians.
But this is also important from the article.
LeftishBrit
(41,203 posts)But he has not been intimidated. He has been criticized. There is a difference.
He is still an MP. He has not been prevented from speaking out. On this, at any rate.
The bitter irony for a Brit is that our party system, with the strong powers that it gives to its leaders, intimidates and controls MPs a lot more than any national or ethnic lobby. As a LibDem, David Ward has been intimidated by this system into kowtowing to a government that is doing almost everything that he was elected to oppose. Bound and gagged by this system, he sits by, and frequently actively co-operates with his vote, while our government cuts jobs and throws people onto the dole; cuts the dole and treats poor people as 'skivers'; treats sick and disabled people in particular as frauds or leeches on the system; sells off the NHS to the highest bidder; cuts all sorts of necessary public services. He knows he will probably lose his seat (narrow majority over Labour) for doing all this; but he cannot fight the pressure. Just as most Labour MPs could not fight the pressure to follow Blair into the Iraq War....And people can ignore all this and say that he's being controlled and intimidated because some people criticize him for his comments on Israel? REALLY!!!
As regards the actual speech:it may sound trivial, but: if he had said ''I am saddened that ... Jews, could do, etc." I wouldn't think it so bad; what is objectionable is his saying, "I am saddened that...THE Jews could do, etc." Israel, and certainly the Israeli government, are not THE Jews. Over half of the world's Jews don't even live in Israel.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Ward was speaking about pre and then post Israel.
That was pretty clear. He was not criticizing all Jews IMHO but the ones who founded/emigrated to Israel.
If you were to insert Catholics/Ireland or Anglicans/England it would be as easy to understand the connotation.
LeftishBrit
(41,203 posts)As a parallel: I could imagine saying, re such people as Scalia and Santorum:
'It is sad that Italian Americans, whose own ancestors suffered a lot of ethnic discrimination in the past, should be prepared to enable political discrimination against minorities.'
But change it to 'It is sad that THE Italian Americans, etc....' and it becomes bigoted, and obviously false.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Having visited Ireland twice – once with my family and once with local schools – I am saddened that THE Irish Catholics, who suffered unbelievable levels of persecution during the 500 years of English rule, could within a few years of liberation after the 1921 Rebellion be inflicting atrocities on Protestants and their own kind in the independent state of Ireland and continued to do so on a daily basis in the north.
Now that would be a direct comparison, and it isn't that far from the truth either. The IRA did some pretty nasty things.
LeftishBrit
(41,203 posts)Omit the 'The', and I entirely agree with the sentiment. Imply that it's ALL Irish Catholics, and it becomes anti-Catholic.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I'm not a self-hating Irish person, but I can see things pretty clearly.
I'm not looking for a fight, but if the argument is over the word 'the' then this argument is about semantics and not racism. If Ward had made the statement without the 'the' I believe that he would still have been attacked.
Perhaps I am wrong.
Regardless, it looks like Ward was made to apologize.
shira
(30,109 posts)Now, it seems the gloves are off.
Fascinating.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Oh, why some always have to play the victim.
shira
(30,109 posts)The problem is his mask slipped.
The dumbass bigot wrote about Jews.
Not Zionists, Israelis....
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)But please keep trying to make this into something else.
Keep on crying about the proper PC terms to use.
You prove his point with every post.
shira
(30,109 posts)Pssst...that's how slicksters speak of Jews pre-1948.
==========
Not to say it matters much, as it's just as odious equating Zionists and Israelis to Nazis. Everyone knows the implication.
But he wouldn't be in trouble.
A slimeball, yes, but like fellow bigots, he could have weaseled his way out as merely being a critic of Zionism or Israel, not the Jews.
==========
Ward shamelessly abused the Holocaust on Holocaust Memorial Day in order to slander the Jewish people.
Eli Wiesel slammed him:
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/2576/exclusive_nobel_laureate_elie_wiesel_slams_uk_libdem_mp_for_shameless_slanders_over_holocaust_remarks
Now cue to your mocking of Eli Wiesel as being a shrill defender of Israeli human rights abuses.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Perhaps if he had it would look more like this.
"
This isn't mocking, Shira, but what is troubling is that it has been pointed out how many times in this thread that Ward never said Nazis, Germans or Darth Vader in reference to the Jews. You, and others with an agenda, made that up and continue to pound your shoe on the table like some irrelevant Khrushchev. You demand that the words be changed to suit your brand of history.
Instead of thinking about what was said with regard to the Palestinians, since what Ward was talking about was the treatment of the Palestinians, you would prefer silence. Don't tell me you wouldn't. Every thing that you write or post shows that in your opinion Israel does nothing wrong.
And this works right into the narrative that there is an attempt to silence Ward. If he had used the term Zionists instead of Jews, yet was still critical of Israeli policies on the Palestinians, I'm certain that there would still be a call for his head by those who want to sweep what Israel does under the carpet of history.
shira
(30,109 posts)...to the worst example of genocide in history. In addition, he's comparing the Jews' role in the war now vs. the Palestinians to what happened in the Holocaust.
That's what he means by committing atrocities. On a daily basis. Not just here or there, but daily. IOW, crimes vs. humanity. Crimes vs. innocents that are cruel and in no way justifiable. Every day.
He did it on Holocaust Memorial Day to boot. He abused the memory of the Holocaust to slander "the Jews".
======
He then wrote:
You're defending that?
What lessons were "those" Jews supposed to learn?
This is where you usually evade or run & hide rather than answer anything in this post.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)No, he didn't say Arab world. He said Palestinians.
Why you wish to confuse the issue? Perhaps to the casual DU reader your words will confuse them?
The article does mention this:
He did write this.
So that we don't confuse the casual DU I/P reader there it is, Shira. David Ward is pretty clear on what he said.
There's no evasions in this post, Shira.
I'll leave that up to you.
Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #61)
shira This message was self-deleted by its author.
shira
(30,109 posts)...who escaped the ovens and were under attack by Palestinians led by Hitler's favorite Mufti, Al-Husseyni, who was installed as leader by the British. Meanwhile, Ward's country back then was busy denying entry into Palestine to who knows how many Jews who had nowhere else to go to escape the Nazis. This, in defiance of the Palestinian Mandate which stated clearly it was the Jewish homeland where Jews could legally settle.
And this bastard has the nerve to single out the Jews, on Holocaust Memorial Day no less? What the hell has David Ward learned from the Holocaust and his country's record WRT the Jews back then? About the only thing worse would be a German MP making the same remarks. Can you imagine apologists coming out of the closet to defend that?
Ward should be the one apologizing for his own country's actions back then. His country locked countless desperate Jews out of Palestine (consigning umpteen thousands to death). His country also put Hitler's favorite Mufti into power, and he has the nerve to write what he did and try defending it?
Now given the facts, what should a more responsible David Ward have written on Holocaust Memorial Day? He wouldn't have made any comments offending world Jewry, that's for sure. He wouldn't dare.
Shame on anyone defending his bile as "the truth". Portraying things as he did is a lie by omission. Just as pernicious as any other lie (and in this case a very sick lie). Of course, if he included the context and lamented what had happened to both sides while including what his own nation did, he wouldn't have had any comment worth making on Holocaust Memorial Day, other than to remember it and pay respect as any civilized person would do.
If anything, David Ward didn't learn his lesson from the Holocaust.
You're trying to defend the indefensible.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Now your narrative is not only that Ward is guilty but the British are guilty as well.
The article that you desperately want to distract the causal DUer from is about a British MP that dared to write that the Palestinians are getting a raw deal from the Israelis and the attacks that he is under for it. That's the gist of it.
Your attack is noted.
And yet silence from you on the plight of the Palestinians. I would say that was odd, but I know your dance too well.
Since I would rather let him speak for himself here I will simply post, again, what he wrote.
More of your lamentations.
It's strange that Holocaust Memorial Day is brought up as an excuse to attack MP Ward. I would put good money down that if he were to have said this on August 1st instead he would have been equally attacked as a bigot; while silence would have reigned from the attackers on the plight of the Palestinians.
shira
(30,109 posts)...all the relevant, true information previously mentioned in my last post, you believe that's fair and legitimate criticism?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)During the hearing Mr Ward agreed to remove the comments from his website and said he would work with the Liberal Democrat Friends of Israel to "agree language" that is proportionate, according to the party.
But the Holocaust Educational Trust said the Lib Dems' response to the "sickening" comments was "disappointing".
Everything you posted here and everything you quoted from Derfner was so very wrong.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)It sounds like the title of the OP was pretty accurate.
Ward is a target for his stance on the I/P situation, and it appears that he was nailed for it.
It still doesn't change the fact of what he wrote, and that is the Israelis have give the Palestinians a black eye for a generation.
shira
(30,109 posts)No matter what Clegg or any mainstream Jewish organization says (all of them just play the antisemitism card in bad faith b/c they're against any criticism of Israel).
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)to have borne fruit.
All involved, take a bow. The narrative has been shifted away from the Palestinians. All in a days work.
shira
(30,109 posts)All major Jewish organizations disagree, just as Nick Clegg does...
But +972 runs with it anyway.
Therefore, it must be true and the evil Zionists play the antisemitism card in order to deflect criticism....
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)The OP was about Israel's treatment of Palestinians and a British MPs quote about it, but generally Shira has to run as far as possible from this subject in order to vilify the writer of the article.
Good work if you can get it, I guess.
shira
(30,109 posts)You're the one off-topic.
So you think major Jewish organizations dedicated to fighting hate are all wrong and against any legit criticism of Israel?
BTW, that is on topic...
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)First of all, it does not matter that Ward never explicitly used the word Nazi. The implication was clear enough to be obvious to a large number of people and while you may disagree with this interpretation you can not simply deny its validity. I think that a large part of your POV is derived from the belief that the entirety of the criticism leveled against Ward is disingenuous and is really because of the British Jewish community's practice of attacking anyone who criticizes Israel, painting them as anti-semitic.
In other words, anytime the Jewish community levels this charge it can conveniently be brushed away as an untrue assault in the interest of ending legitimate criticism of Israel. And it does not matter if someone espouses genuinely offensive beliefs about Jews because even if he didn't those crazy Jews would still be calling for his head because he dared to critique Israel. There is so much wrong with this viewpoint I hardly know where to begin.
One key thing to impress upon you is that it is not your place to determine what qualifies as anti-semitic and what does not. The acid test for discriminatory speech and behavior has usually been something that's determined by the group in question, not by outside individuals. In other words, the fact that so many Jewish organizations have come out to criticize Ward's speech as anti-semitic is all the proof one needs to determine that it is, in fact, anti-semitic. Whether or not you understand why is besides the point.
The author's charge that all of these organizations actually use this term indiscriminately, against speech that is clearly NOT anti-semitic at all, to silence legitimate critics of Israel, is really disgusting. His use of terms like macher to insult Britain's Jewish leaders is itself highly offensive and indicative of a profound lack of respect on the author's part. As is his description of "the American Jews" as chutzpahdik. It's great to know that while Britain's Jewish leadership isn't considered as uppity as America's, they still consider themselves to be big-shots capable of relentlessly savaging innocent opponents as well as self-aggrandizing Jews anywhere.
This author REALLY sounds like someone with his finger on the pulse of what constitutes anti-semitism versus legitimate criticism. Larry Derfner, obviously, has made his name by use of this sort of callously bigoted rhetoric that does nothing but reinforce some of the most odious anti-semitic stereotypes in circulation today.
Obviously it doesn't seem to matter that most of the criticism did NOT center around the legitimacy of Ward's comments about Israel WRT Palestine but rather focused on his offensive beliefs regarding the holocaust and Jews in general. Such as...
According to both Ward and Derfner, all of Britain's Jewish leaders are dishonest shysters, eager to tarnish the memory of Holocaust survivors in the pursuit of deflecting even the most legitimate criticism of Israeli policies. There is simply no way that their outrage could be anything other than manufactured, born of an unseemly ulterior motive.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Never intended to imply I would never be responding to your posts elsewhere.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)The one where you called me a troll and were punted for it?
Or was it this one where you were projecting?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=33989
"I can almost see the tears streaming down your outraged, pouting face."
That thread, dude?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)My, isn't that a sophisticated insult. That quote of mine was inspired by your outraged sensibilities when you alerted on my post.
I don't 'surround' myself with racists or any other hate group.
I find it interesting that you can so easily accuse others of racism on the flimsiest of excuses yet when someone so much as criticizes your comments you cry to an administrator about it. There's nothing less appealing than an insult-monger with paper thin skin.
That one of your tattles eventually stuck isn't really something to brag about IMO. Btw both links are from the same thread.
So do you have anything of substance to offer or just more of the same?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but yes I remember a poster who had several comments deleted for persistantly doing just that
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat Mar 2, 2013, 09:12 AM - Edit history (1)
Their intent (like their anti-Jewish oppressors throughout the centuries) is just to oppress the other, the Palestinians. They are in no way threatened and forced to deal with a relentless enemy sworn to their nation's destruction & mass murder. In no way have they even attempted to get along with their neighbors, make peace, or offer them their own state....
Their intent is malevolent, like any evil oppressor. They need no excuse to hate b/c they just do. They want to harm and oppress the defenseless and it must be stopped!!!
What's sad is many believe David Ward's hateful spew contributes to peace, tolerance, and co-existance.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I do not think it means what you think it means.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)because you seem to see things that simply are not there
shira
(30,109 posts)....have been talking about?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)what is the first mental image that comes to mind when the term antisemitic is used? For most (watch the comical denials) it is the most infamous antisemites of all time -the Nazi's so by extension every time Palestinians or anyone else (Sarah Shulman for example) are called antisemitic they are by extension being called Nazi's, right?
shira
(30,109 posts)Ward could have contextualized his criticism & written that he acknowledges the threats & attacks Israel faces, and given the reality Jews face, he still disagrees with their policies. But that wouldn't do. It doesn't demonize the Jews enough. No, he must make it appear that what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians is much like what had been done to them roughly 70 years ago.
That's the difference between criticism and demonization.
As to antisemites, they are what they are. If most people see images of Nazis every time someone is accused of antisemitism, they have a poor understanding of what antisemitism is. OTOH, some people think there are no antisemites anymore; not unless people are nazis. Antisemites these days love that definition. If they're not nazis, they can't be antisemites.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)they're anti-Semites good one 
as to Ward now your condemning him for what he did not say, so if every time one mentions how Palestinians are being repressed by Israel they are somehow required to mention the danger they pose to Israeli's?** so if this true then is the reverse every-time one points out something negative towards Palestinians are they required to point out how repressive Israel is towards them, I'm thinking not that's somehow different .
**( or is it Jews seeing as you gleefully pointed out one can freely conflate the 2 on DU3 as opposed to DU2 where it garnered one a deleted comment, something you yourself take advantage of quite frequently of course not in your present comment cause your attempting to make a point of some sort)
shira
(30,109 posts)It's not that Ward brought up Israel's treatment towards Palestinians, it's that he blamed Jews (who didn't learn their lessons from the Holocaust) for committing actual atrocities against another people; implying malice with no defensive military purpose whatsoever. For no reason other than hate, just like their Nazi oppressors from the WWII era...
It's a sick charge.
You don't believe that, so why pretend his is legitimate criticism?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)as opposed to what was said, in this case IMO Jews rather than Israelis was used due to the fact that for at least a portion of the time period in 1946, 1947 both Jews and Arabs were Palestinians and it is for the most part Israeli Jews via IDF who are carrying out detentions, bombings, drone attacks, and expulsions now, there may be a few Israeli Arabs or Palestinians with Israeli citizenship involved in IDF's activities but they are hardly more than small minority at best
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)The split in the pro-Israel community in Britain has been clear and evident for years now. The question is, why does Yachad need the Zionist Federation's recognition?
By Anshel Pfeffer | Mar.01, 2013
A controversy has engulfed the Jewish and Zionist establishment in Britain over the last couple of days over the refusal of the UK's Zionist Federation to accept the left-wing movement, Yachad, as an affiliated organization. What is surprising about it is mainly in the fact that anyone is actually surprised.
The split in the pro-Israel community in Britain has been clear and evident for years now, with on the one side those who are resolutely against any significant criticism of Israel and its government by Jews in Britain, and on the other, members of the community who believe in expressing their support for Israel along with their criticism of certain Israeli policies and emphasizing the urgent necessity of a two-state solution.
While Yachad has not been ostracized, there is a sizable body of opinion which sees it as an anti-Israel group and has contributed to the decision to reject its recognition as an affiliated organization. However, since the rejection was made public, a long list of mainstream Jewish organizations have made it clear that they are opposed to the Zionist Federation's opinion and that Yachad from their perspective is certainly a Zionist movement in its own right.
Yachad was set up two years ago as a pro-Israel and pro-peace organization, focused mainly on providing a forum within the community where British Jews could debate the core issues of Israel and its conflict with the Palestinians. The movement has been active among Jewish students and takes British Jews who are on vacation in Israel on one-day tours of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, presenting them the implications of settlement building on a possible diplomatic solution with the Palestinians.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/u-k-zionist-federation-refuses-to-accept-left-wing-pro-israel-movement.premium-1.506626
LeftishBrit
(41,203 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)What do you think of the question posed in the OP..as a Brit yourself, what is that all about?
The question is, why does Yachad need the Zionist Federation's recognition?
LeftishBrit
(41,203 posts)closed-minded.
Unfortunately some Zionists reject left-wing Zionists for not supporting current Israeli policies, and some leftwingers reject left-wing Zionists because they think that all Zionists and Israelis are right-wing.
As regards the question in the OP: while Ward got criticized, I would hardly call it a smear campaign or evidence of huge Zionist influence in this country. The influence of the party system on MPs is far greater and more deleterious as I pointed out elsewhere.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)needing ZF's recognition.
LeftishBrit
(41,203 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Is the article suggesting that ZF has pulled a "Galloway?"
LeftishBrit
(41,203 posts)share exactly their views. Which, ironically, is something that they had quite rightly criticized Galloway for.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)which is sad and gives power to those that say Zionism is Rightwing
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It shows that there are both right-wing and left-wing Zionists.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but it was a valiant try
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Yachad = Left Wing Zionists
Federation = Right Wing Zionists
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)a definition that morphs per need
aranthus
(3,385 posts)I don't agree with all of their positions, but Yachad is obviously not anti-Israel. They are for a Jewish state, against BDS and against RoR. If ZF indeed believes that any criticism of Israeli policy is taboo, then it has lost its way.
shira
(30,109 posts)Am I wrong or are am I right? At long last the #Zionists are losing the battle - how long can the #apartheid State of #Israel last?