A real solution to the conflict

[shira]

They have come to terms with the fact that a Palestinian state must be created, but are fully aware that its creation does not mean that the wolf and the lamb could ever live together happily ever after.

So what can be done to promote a true peace? To solve the conflict, we first need to understand the underlying issues. This is not a conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinian- Israeli conflict is merely one front of a much wider international struggle – the struggle between the West and fundamentalist Islam. Islamic theology assumes that the world is split into two groups: Dar al- Islam (the House of Islam – the area of the world under Islamic rule) and Dar al-Harb (the House of war – countries where Muslim law is not in force).....

...Unfortunately, the translation of Bush’s brilliant speech into policy was a complete failure.

Instead of promoting democratic values, the US administration promoted democratic structure. In other words, instead of promoting human rights, and women’s and minorities’ rights, the Americans supported holding elections.

They failed to understand that it would have been preferable to have a dictator who allowed the promotion of liberal values (against his will and under US pressure), than to have a democratic structure that was indirectly responsible for bringing Islamic extremists to power.

If we are serious about promoting peace, we must do our best to help moderate Islamic groups get their voices heard. We must promote women’s and human rights organizations in the Arab Muslim world. We must help spread liberal values. We must rectify this sad reality in which women are forbidden to drive in Saudi Arabia....

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?ID=306484&R=R1

[azurnoir]

1. what a eloquent piece from Ronen Shoval who happens to head Im Tirzu

more about them I'll be happy to post more about ImTirzu if you wish

Campaign against NGOs
New Israel Fund

In 2010, Im Tirtzu published a document [18] and launched a campaign in the Israeli media that alleged connections between organizations supported by the New Israel Fund and the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict (also known as the Goldstone Report). Im Tirtzu highlighted that 92 percent of all Israeli testimonials in the report came from NIF funded organizations.[19] The campaign included posters of NIF chairwoman Naomi Chazan with a horn strapped by a string on her forehead (in Hebrew, the word "horn" also means "fund&quot .[20] Chazan responded that, in her eyes, the campaign was directed against democracy itself.[20] The executive director of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, Hagai El-Ad, denied Im Tirtzu's allegations.[21] Gideon Levy, writing in Haaretz, likened Im Tirtzu's campaign against NIF to fascist tactics.[22] Gershon Baskin, a columnist in the Jerusalem Post, spoke out about the newspaper's decision to cancel Naomi Chazan's column and accused Im Tirtzu of using an "anti-Semitic motif" as part of a "witch-hunt" that "is reminiscent of the darkest days of McCarthyism."[23]

During Operation Pillar of Defense, Im Tirtzu published an open letter in American Jewish newspapers addressed to the New Israel Fund chair. The letter gave examples of NIF funded organizations that Im Tirtzu said accused Israel of war crimes, and asked if the NIF agrees with their accusations.[24] The NIF described Im Tirtzu's charges as an "attack" and "unfounded".[25]
Machsom Watch

In May 2011 the organization called on Attorney-General Yehuda Weinstein to launch a criminal investigation into the operations of Machsom Watch (an NIF funded organization) for allegedly violating an IDF order prohibiting Israelis from entering the Palestinian village of Awarta.[26] About a week before the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) revealed the identities of the murder suspects for the Itamar attack, senior Machsom Watch activist, Raya Yaron, was photographed hugging the mother of one of the men. Yaron said many other human rights organizations had also visited the village.[27]
Peace Now

In May 2012 Peace Now filed a police complaint that said Im Tirtzu activists had impersonated Peace Now activists and waved Palestinian flags during Jerusalem Day celebrations in what was reported as a presumed attempt to portray them as Palestinian sympathizers. They described Im Tirtzu as an "extremist movement" that, together with "extreme Islamic movements on the Arab side", they claimed would "drag us to a religious war steeped in blood". Im Tirtzu accused Peace Now of "impersonating an Israeli organization while operating with backing from foreign countries in order to give the Temple Mount to Palestinian Authority" and said freedom of speech gave them the right to ridicule Peace Now's positions.[28]
Adalah

In its document on the NIF's involvement in the Goldstone Report,[18] Im Tirtzu said Adalah participated in anti-Israel propaganda. Adalah, an organization that receives millions of dollars from the New Israel Fund,[29] was the leading NGO advocator in the Goldstone Report. Im Tirtzu cited all of Adalah's petitions and lawsuits against the IDF, challenging the organization's self-proclaimed motives "to promote and defend the rights of Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel."[30] In a 2012 article, Ronen Shovel criticised Adalah's petition to the attorney general of Israel, claiming that Operation “Pillar of Defense” was a “serious violation of laws of war amounting to war crimes.”[31]

This page was last modified on 9 March 2013 at 14:13.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Im_Tirtzu

[shira]

2. so you're against the proposed solution? n/t

[Jefferson23]

4. Solution?? lol

[shira]

6. So you prefer Islamist totalitarian fascist rule to western democracy.

Is there any other way to understand your POV?

[Jefferson23]

14. The solution is ??? Come on, say it, shira. I mean you posted this as a tribute

to a solution that could work.

[shira]

30. The solution is in the article. Read it. Or shall I quote it? n/t

[azurnoir]

7. I'm inviting you to tell us what that 'solution' is

in your own words if possible

[shira]

9. Did you read the article? n/t

[azurnoir]

11. yes but I want you an unbiased source to tell us okay n/t

[cali]

26. What proposed solution, Shira? There is none in that piece of shit

There are NO specifics. There is NO proposed solution.

[shira]

29. Work with moderates, seculars, liberals....from the ground up

Put pressure on authoritarian governments to allow civil liberties. Use carrots/sticks, whatever...

Allowing elections that put extreme tyrannical theocracies like the MB or Hamas into power (for a long time) does nothing to promote peace, and is in fact a complete betrayal to moderates, seculars, and liberals in those societies. It's no wonder they have contempt for western policies that side more with extremist tyrants than them.

[cali]

36. That is NOT what the article says.

Those are YOUR words. And they are not honest ones.

Ugh.

[shira]

38. That's exactly what it says. Here it is...

Instead of promoting democratic values, the US administration promoted democratic structure. In other words, instead of promoting human rights, and women’s and minorities’ rights, the Americans supported holding elections.

They failed to understand that it would have been preferable to have a dictator who allowed the promotion of liberal values (against his will and under US pressure), than to have a democratic structure that was indirectly responsible for bringing Islamic extremists to power.

If we are serious about promoting peace, we must do our best to help moderate Islamic groups get their voices heard. We must promote women’s and human rights organizations in the Arab Muslim world. We must help spread liberal values. We must rectify this sad reality in which women are forbidden to drive in Saudi Arabia.

And we must do so not just to improve the lives of millions of women living in the Islamic world, but since it is the only way to bring about true world peace. Only once it becomes part of the political culture of Islamic countries to treat women as human beings will there be the slightest chance that one day they might view the “Zionist enemy” as people who have the right to exist.

Shared values are the key to true peace. It is true that this is a distant goal that requires tremendous patience.

Couldn't be more clear.

I don't see how it's possible for any sane person having a problem with that.

[Scootaloo]

52. The "proposed solution" is predicated on a false assumption

This is not a conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinian- Israeli conflict is merely one front of a much wider international struggle – the struggle between the West and fundamentalist Islam.

That's just blatantly false. Any "solution" stemming from it will by default also be false. While advocating political and social liberalism in more regressive Muslim nations is admirable, pretending that Saudi women having equality is going to change one thing in the context of Israel and Palestine is just silly.

[shira]

54. The false assumption is that the conflict is about the occupation, settlements....

...and lack of a Palestinian state.

None of those issues were factors in 1948. The conflict stems from the surrounding countries being against Israel's very existence. Nations more committed to western liberal values and modernization wouldn't have a problem working peacefully with Israel.

[Scootaloo]

56. Shira, I have trouble believing that you are actually that clueless

I don't know who, exactly, you're trying to convince, but it's not going to work with anyone who's even marginally informed about the Israel / Palestine conflict. Save that shit for youtube comments or something.

[shira]

58. Those are the facts. Here's Arafat on youtube (now that you mention it)

Last edited Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:43 AM - Edit history (1)

What you're about to see is mainstream throughout the mideast. It evokes no strong reactions from Arab or Muslim moderates (for fear of retribution). Of course it provokes no condemnation from people like yourself either, which is another story...

Western, liberal societies do not put up with that, Scoot. The OP nailed it!

Of course, folks like yourself prefer that information was censored. Not fit for public consumption...



The reason I don't think you care about the content of that video is because you apparently don't care much about western democratic liberal values either. Surprise!!! Well, at least not throughout the rest of the world. You may very well be liberal/progressive domestically, but in no way are you for that throughout the rest of the world (much less, the mideast). That's why you have such a problem with the OP.

I'd even wager that you and many of your friends here prefer a Hugo Chavez authoritarian regime to the spread of western democracy. Venezuela is your idea of secular democracy, even without freedom of speech/dissent/press and low quality human rights.

[Scootaloo]

61. Now you're just doing a gish gallop.

And you're still failing to back up the core premise of the article in your OP.

The conflict between Israel and Palestine is not a conflict between "fundamentalist Islam and the West." It will not be solved by pride parades happening in the Maldives. The assumption and conclusions of the OP are just plain wrong.

[shira]

62. I think it's a religious conflict steeped in antisemitic hatred....

The really old kind of hate.

The only long term remedy I see is the incorporation of civil liberties, starting with freedom of speech, dissent, and press. Sane, rational voices must be heard in order for real change to occur. The only message being heard is that of the tyrants in charge who need an enemy like Israel to keep the focus off themselves.

[Jefferson23]

3. Certainly is a shira post, lol:

Opposition

In a 2012 sworn statement, Zeev Sternhell argued that Im Tirtzu's ideology and actions contained elements of fascism.[33] The deposition was provided in the course of legal proceedings following from an NIS 2.6-million lawsuit filed by Im Tirtzu against Israelis who had opened a Facebook page that suggested that Im Tirtzu was a fascist group.[34] Israeli historian Moshe Zimmermann commented in the context of the legal proceedings that the word "fascism" has a broad range of meanings and that language is a contaminated construct.[35]

In 2009, Im Tirtzu’s largest donor was the John Hagee Ministries (JHM) via the Christian-Zionist organization Christians United for Israel (CUFI). Im Tirtzu received US$100,000 from JHM and $34,000 from other sources. In 2010, The Jerusalem Post reported that JHM "expressed deep displeasure" with Im Tirtzu after its campaigns against the New Israel Fund and Ben-Gurion University and announced the cessation of its funding. A JHM spokesman said that Im Tirtzu "misrepresented its focus when they told us their mission was strictly Zionist education."[36]
Support

In 2009, Abe Selig, writing for the Jerusalem Post, chose Im Tirtzu as: "Young Israelis of the year: Im Tirtzu (If You Will It): Herzl's army".[37]

In a 2012 Ministry of Culture and Education competition, Im Tirtzu won first prize for their video titled, "Zionism Without Jerusalem?" In a competition featuring almost 150 entries, Im Tirtu's video won the most popular video, and was awarded a prize of 25,000 shekels.[38]

Im Tirtzu has been one of the most active organization on college campuses throughout Israel, and has received support from many members of the Israeli Parliament and prominent Israeli writers and personalities.[17][39]

[shira]

10. A broken clock is right twice a day. Im Tirtsu nailed it. n/t

[Jefferson23]

13. You identify with this man and his message..I get that. No worries. n/t

[shira]

31. Supporting tyrannical theocratic brutal dictatorships is wrong...

We should always prop up the moderates, liberals, and seculars in oppressive societies and work to bring about universal human rights and civil liberties there.

If you're not for that, what the hell do you stand for?

[Scootaloo]

53. Here's what you're for, Shira

Im Tirtsu wants to hang out with Jew-hating ("The holocaust was a good thing!&quot , homophobic ("Hurricane Katrina was god's punishment for a homosexual parade!&quot misogynistic turd (Just... this...) that is John Hagee.

And you're here panhandling for Im Tirtsu.

Now by the logic you utilize towards every political group you disagree with, you know, that everyone who agrees with FreeGaza on some level is an antisemite because Greta Berlin is... What does your own total, ringing endorsement of Im Tirtsu mean?

You're going to have to start supporting some moderates yourself before you start admonishing others to do the same, you know.

[shira]

55. Yes, I just love Hagee. He's the coolest ever. Great liberal there!

[Scootaloo]

57. Well, by your increasingly low standards for "liberal," I believe it.

[shira]

59. You would love to believe it. n/t

[shaayecanaan]

16. Support democracy by not supporting elections

and support peace by not supporting it right now. Support it instead at some indeterminate time in the future.

[Jefferson23]

17. Yep, Peace Later billboards to arrive soon. n/t

[shaayecanaan]

18. I'm trying to think of a good slogan...

"Taking a stand for peace, someday. Maybe."

"Peace. Not today, or tomorrow. Probably not for the next couple of years either. We'll keep you updated if anything changes."

"While we're waiting for the right time for peace, can I interest you in a promising offshore-gas investment opportunity?"

"No peace until the Arabs demonstrate Western values, such as bombing the shit out of anonymous brown people, buying a new cell phone every year line dancing"

"Although we personally oppose gay marriage ever becoming legal in Israel, we nevertheless insist that the Palestinians should adopt it before they are considered capable of governing themselves."

"Also all Palestinian eggs should be free range before there is any Palestinian state. If you don't agree with this then obviously you are a battery-hen torture supporting motherfucker. Why won't you leftists stand up for the chickens?"

[Jefferson23]

42. I like them...probably best to start with the first one.. it's succinct and may I suggest

the word Maybe, in bold.

[Israeli]

19. That made me

laugh out loud .

[pelsar]

21. his idea is not so new...promoting democracy from the "bottom up"

Last edited Fri Mar 15, 2013, 06:20 AM - Edit history (3)

the concept is simple: used by the christian missionaries, used by the early zionists, used by the american colonialists, used by hamas and used by Muslim Brotherhood and used by Shas

first you create the values at the grass roots level, you get support from the bottom, not from the top. It took MB 90 years to get to power based on that. Shas got 17 mandates using that formula, the christian missionaries turned millions to their god and the zionists made a country based on that formula....

if the west bank or gaza had actual western values, the whole environment would change, there would be a bit more confidence from the israeli side with the Palestenians, not to mention they would have more stability as a govt. whereas today we all know that Abbas regime will end and we all know that hamas is waitiing in the wings to redo gaza in the west bank.....will they succeed? will they create chaos? nobody knows, but we do know their plan is "in place." and they did succeed in gaza.

expecting the PA nor Hamas to be able to keep any agreement, when both are dictatorships with a limited lifespan with their own potential "arab spring" will not bring us peace nor stability (nor the Palestinians for that matter)

not to mention that such support/promotion completely negates liberal values of civil rights as the most important and replaces it with simplistic nationalism.

[shira]

22. The mistake is believing our friends here want genuine peace...

Last edited Fri Mar 15, 2013, 08:47 AM - Edit history (1)

They've been very clear for years. The occupation must end. Whether that leads to peace or more war is irrelevant because justice must be served. They are not interested in western democracy throughout the mideast. Palestinian nationalism comes first, but when it comes to freedom, civil liberties & human rights for all? Meh....

Based on recent events, it appears they prefer a Hugo Chavez authoritarian regime to western democracy. Even if that means no freedom of press or dissent like in Venezuela. Chavez of course got disgusted with human rights groups like HRW and Amnesty International, so he booted them out from Venezuela for being too critical of his policies. He was very close with tyrants like Assad and Ahmedinijad, but not to worry, no problem....Chavez is still way too cool & the most awesome to fringe Leftists here at DU...

So if our Leftist friends aren't really for universal human rights and civil liberties like they say they are, just what in the hell do they stand for?

[JoDog]

27. Agreed

When Hamas was elected to lead Gaza, instead of championing order and human rights for all, they imposed authoritarian rule, complete with kangaroo courts and summary executions, and chaos, so long as the rockets were pointed east.

Not the kind of government I want for the Palestinians, and not the kind of neighbor I want for Israel.

[shaayecanaan]

46. What is a kangaroo court?

Is it a court that does not allow trial by jury?

That does not publish its decisions?

That does not allow people to be tried in public?

That has a conviction rate of (say) 99.74%?

[pelsar]

47. thats the occupation...

now lets see some of that internet courage and defend the creation and support of a non democratic, non western society that actually voted in a theocratic regime whereas the other half of them remains with a dictator that also doesnt believe in civil rights and arrest bloggers.

justify exchanging the military occupation with a civil dictatorship,

and please base it on "civil rights" since that seems to be something progressives I understand "believe in

[shaayecanaan]

49. So you're admitting that the Occupation courts are kangaroo courts?

I just want to make that clear. Its a pity "JoDog" didnt stick around, she could have learned something.

justify exchanging the military occupation with a civil dictatorship

We had a lengthy discussion about this, and I am not particularly interested in repeating myself. But briefly:-

1) the occupation does not respect freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of peaceful assembly or any other rights. The occupation is not a breeding ground for democracy, as you seem to be alleging.

Take, for instance, the cartoonist that Israel has locked up for the last month, without charge:-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=35670

2) It is the will of the Palestinians themselves that they be freed from occupation

3) The transition to democracy will only take place once the Palestinians themselves have self-determination, it will not happen under occupation, and particularly under Israeli occupation, which essentially wants to see Palestinian society function at the lowest level possible without constituting a crisis.

[pelsar]

50. you get the DU medal of year.....

Last edited Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:37 AM - Edit history (1)

you know, somethings are obvious..its only when you have "identity politics combined with a PC mentality (prevalent in these parts) that you cant state the obvious: occupations are not about justice, civil rights, or anything to do with democracy....thats why they are called occupations. Of course the military occupation courts have little to do with democractic values. Call them what you want kangagroo courts chimpanzee courts.....

____

but this is where you get nominated for the medal...note just the nomination, since you are opening the door to where "few I/P er has gone before...because we didnt get to the meat of the matter....

so lets start with your basic premis:
The transition to democracy will only take place once the Palestinians themselves have self-determination, it will not happen under occupation,

why not? whats preventing gaza from having freedom of the press?..other then the Palestinians own "elected govt" and what about those Palestinians who disagree with your premise, are they wrong? The ones who want and demand civil rights in gaza and freedom of speech?

and what is the history of theorcratic govts, dictatorships going peacefuly democratic? (isnt that your plan?)...and why do you even think they will (egypt and gaza voted in non democratic govts), one could argue that they dont even want one.

on the other side...

the UN cancelled a mixed run. Was this a mistake for the UN to interfere
Gaza rights groups urged the UN to hold the marathon, arguing that Hamas has no right to discriminate against women.


this is very confusing, the UN in its own meekly way is pushing for as an outsider for womens rights while gaza is "occupied" or perhaps its not, either way, they are interfering....something you say is a "no no"

arent they suppose to wait until the occupation ends and they have a "proper dictatorship" before attempting to "interfere" or should they never interfere, i'm very confused here...
_______________________________
maybe, and forgive me if I'm putting text in your posts" but what you are trying to write is that; the "people" if they chose a dictatorship (via coup, revolution etc) simply means "hands off" as far as progressives are concerned, until that time when the "people" try to change the govt in which case the progressives will cheer from the sidelines and not get any gun grease on their hands.

[Jefferson23]

5. This is a man who is advocating his version of democracy and hailing GW at the same time..priceless

Instead of promoting democratic values, the US administration promoted democratic structure. In other words, instead of promoting human rights, and women’s and minorities’ rights, the Americans supported holding elections.

They failed to understand that it would have been preferable to have a dictator who allowed the promotion of liberal values (against his will and under US pressure), than to have a democratic structure that was indirectly responsible for bringing Islamic extremists to power.

So says the bigot: To solve the conflict, we first need to understand the underlying issues. This is not a conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinian- Israeli conflict is merely one front of a much wider international struggle – the struggle between the West and fundamentalist Islam. Islamic theology assumes that the world is split into two groups: Dar al- Islam (the House of Islam – the area of the world under Islamic rule) and Dar al-Harb (the House of war – countries where Muslim law is not in force).

[shira]

8. Hailing Bush? He wrote that GW was wrong to encourage elections. n/t

[Jefferson23]

12. Read your own OP, he makes himself clear how he see's Bush:

..Unfortunately, the translation of Bush’s brilliant speech into policy was a complete failure.


It's just that he's crazier than Bush.

[shira]

32. It was a nice speech, but poorly executed by neo-con policies. n/t

[delrem]

15. This fellow is insane.

He's in Pamela Geller territory and only offers a "solution" to other absolutist nut cases of the same terribly narrow kind. In this realm contradiction no longer matters, if it ever did, because the mind is totally given over to incredible world encompassing plots, in this case an Islamic plot for total world domination wherein I/P is a front line -- and not unlike other outlandish world encompassing plots like "The protocols of Zion". Bubbles within bubbles within bubbles ad infinitum, where the paranoid threat is the sole reality containing a stream of consciousness that forever circles in a vain but increasingly desperate and violent attempt to prove itself real.

Sheesh. DU can do better than this.

[Israeli]

20. You want " A real solution to the conflict " shira

Here it is ,

Meretz's " Four Point Plan " for initiating the peace process :

http://meretz.org.il/english/four-point-plan-initiating-peace-process/

[shira]

23. So working to give all mideast people western democratic liberties & freedoms....

...is a bad idea, right?

Better that authoritarian, fascist, theocratic rule should continue throughout the region where women, gays, & christians are persecuted.

And you think that will lead to genuine peace?

[Israeli]

24. Shira

What I said was that Meretz's " Four Point Plan " for initiating the peace process is a solution to the conflict .

If it could be implemented then yes I think it would lead to genuine peace.

[shira]

33. How do you get genuine long-term peace with neighboring fascist regimes...

...like Hamas, the MB, Assad, etc.?

Even if they make peace, they're all just an Arab Spring away from breaking the deal. Also, if the thugs and tyrants running those regimes think so little of their people (gays, women, christians, liberals) then what makes you think they'll be committed to genuine peace with a western liberal democracy?

Besides, aren't you Leftists supposed to be for universal human and civil rights in those societies? Against all the anti-gay, anti-christian, anti-minority bigotry and racism there? Because if not, what the heck do you all stand for?

[Israeli]

39. Choose shira ...

between one State or two ....

Here are your choices :

If the two-state solution dies, Israel will only be left with ugly options. It could ride out the status quo as the world continues to turn against it. It could unilaterally create a Palestinian state by withdrawing to the line of the barrier, incurring most of the costs of a two-state solution with few of the benefits. It could annex the West Bank and give all Palestinians citizenship, making Israel a binational state. Or it could annex the entire West Bank without giving Palestinians citizenship, embracing apartheid

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/112617/israel-palestine-and-end-two-state-solution#

While you are at it ... read the whole article you might just learn something .

[shira]

41. You're avoiding questions. Why?

I choose 2 states and would be for any solution like the Clinton Parameters, Olmert's offer, or Geneva.

[Israeli]

45. Good to know

you should also know that I stand with Naomi Chazan , Hagai El-Ad, Gershon Baskin, Zeev Sternhell ,Mohammed Bakri and Gideon Levy together with Machsom Watch and Peace Now when it comes to Im Tirtzu and Ronen Shoval shira .

[azurnoir]

48. Thankyou

upon reading the article I certainly learned something

[Israeli]

63. you are welcome

what did you learn azurnoir ?

I find it shocking how close Olmert and Abbas came to an agreement but did not and why .

If you want the opinion of an old Peacenik , our chances of resolving the conflict died the night Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated , it was a blow that we have never recovered from .

Bibi and the settlers have won .... so many of us thought Obama would right the wrongs but its not going to happen .

[azurnoir]

64. why in your opinion did Olmerts 2008 offer not take hold

and if it had would there be a Palestinian state today?

[Israeli]

65. IMO

it was because Olmert had to resign as Israeli prime minister , had he continued there would have been a good chance that Abbas would have agreed .

Also see :
http://forward.com/articles/164262/abbas-olmert-was-close-to-peace-deal/

I also think that character assassination played a part , dividing Jerusalem is something our Right wing find completely unacceptable and after living through the incitement that led up to Rabin's death I would not put it past them to set up Olmert .

[azurnoir]

66. there were other factors too

Netanyahu had already said he would not honor any deal Olmert reached with the Palestinians, the Israeli government said that Olmert offered more than Israel was willing to give, and oh the deal could not be implemneted as long as Hamas was in power, and if memery serves Livni wasn't all too keen on it either

[Israeli]

67. yes there were

its all water under the bridge now anyhow
if Rabin and Olmert could not make it happen Livni under this Gov doesn't stand a chance
personally I think we are heading to-wards a one State solution and away from a two State one , and I'm not alone in thinking so :
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4358186,00.html

[azurnoir]

68. I guess you're not alone in that

an interview with Sari Nusseibeh in February of 2012

'The Pursuit of a Two-State Solution Is a Fantasy'

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/a-palestinian-take-on-the-mideast-conflict-the-pursuit-of-a-two-state-solution-is-a-fantasy-a-816491.html

[Israeli]

69. Thanks for the link

I have been at many meetings and involved in many a discussion regarding one state or two ,
I have come to the conclusion that a one state solution is a fantasy ,
maybe 50+ years from now but not today
there is just to much hatred and pain to resolve
we need to live side by side first , get to know each other and build up trust
therefore I believe a two state solution is still the only solution
I also believe that the Palestinians have a right to their own state that they deserve one as much as we deserve ours .

[cali]

25. Yikes. What a despicable pile of dog shit.

Yes, yes. Israel is a poor little lamb and the Palestinians are slavering wolves. And that damned fucking well is the image the author is trying to project.

Not to mention that the premise of his piece is laughably false; a cynical attempt to make this about Islam vs the west, a clash of cultures rather than the more factual reasons for the conflict.

This is the worst kind of right wing dogma and HATE. In any other forum it would be hidden.

[polly7]

28. Well said cali. +1000. nt.

[shira]

34. You're once again confusing thuggish, tyrannical regimes w/ the people they oppress

Maryam Namazie describes your views as patronizing and racist:

But that doesn’t mean that I think the sad excuse of much of the European Left is any better (even though I myself am on the Left).

It is an anti-colonial movement whose perspectives coincide with that of the ruling classes in the so-called Third World. This grouping is on the side of the ‘colonies’ no matter what goes on there. And their understanding of the ‘colonies’ is Eurocentric, patronising and even racist. In the world according to them, the people in these countries are one and the same with the regimes they are struggling against just as the ‘Muslim community’ here is one and the same with reactionary Islamic organisations, Sharia councils, and parasitical imams. Which is why at Stop the War Coalition demonstrations, they carry banners saying ‘We are all Hezbollah;’ at meetings they segregate men and women and urge unveiled women to veil out of ‘solidarity’ and ‘respect’.

This type of politics denies universalism, sees rights as ‘western,’ justifies the suppression of rights, freedoms and equality under the guise of respect for other ‘cultures’ implying that people want to live the way they are forced to and imputing on innumerable people the most reactionary elements of culture and religion, which is that of the ruling class.

In this type of politics, the oppressor is victim and any criticism racist…

[cali]

35. Oh no I'm not. Don't even begin to try that attack on me, honeypie.

I'm directly calling out a bigoted piece of crap that YOU approvingly posted.

I damn well do not defend thuggish regimes. I don't defend Hamas or Hezbollah. I call it as I see it. And that attitude has led to my being unpopular among many of the partisans on both sides of the I/P issue. I pretty much stopped posting in I/P for some time, but I'm back and I'm not going to shut up.

[shira]

37. You're saying the article is unfairly critical of "the Palestinians" in general....

...when the article clearly points to their totalitarian theocratic fascist leadership which oppresses/victimizes the Palestinians and prevents genuine peace.

I'm not accusing you of defending Hamas, Assad, the MB, etc. I'm accusing you of confusing them with the victims in their societies that they oppress.

Why do you think it's wrong to encourage, prop up, and empower the moderates and liberals within Palestinian society in the hopes that eventually a future Palestine becomes a western democracy? Why do you think it's wrong to pressure Abbas now into allowing liberal reforms in the W.Bank?

[cali]

40. That you don't see the clear and ugly bigotry in this piece is pathetic

disturbing.

All I can do is shake my head. sadly.

[shira]

44. I thnk I need it explained very clearly to me.

Last edited Fri Mar 15, 2013, 05:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Can you explain to me what you find wrong with empowering moderates and putting pressure on Arab regimes to make liberal reforms.

[Violet_Crumble]

70. Why is it that you always need to have bigotry explained to you when it's against Arabs/Muslims?

It's a whole different story when it comes to antisemitism. What you should try doing, though I suspect this has been suggested to you many times in the past, is to look at stuff that's bigoted against Arabs/Muslims and try exchanging Arabs/Muslims for Jews. If it's bigoted against Jews when you do that, then it means what yr reading is bigoted. Doing that would save you a lot of time and also do away with the rather negative impression that yr posts give when it comes to being sensitive to bigotry against Muslims and Arabs...

[shira]

71. You didn't answer the question I was asking Cali...

And the article isn't bigoted.

What's bigoted is your equating Islamists to all Muslims, as they're all apparently "the same" to you.

[azurnoir]

43. Good show cali

I would have stated it a bit differently but good show, but I must disagree with that last sentence about this OP being hidden upstairs, IMO it would not have been because JPost is a well 'respectable' well known publication, even if it does lean right wards, that said I checked out the article because I wondered after reading the snip if Robert Spencer was writing for JPost these days, even Caroline Glick and I'm not sure she still actively writes editorials is that out there about it

eta all that said upstairs the OP would most likely have had her posterior handed to her so to speak but that's happening here too

[Deep13]

51. Who wrote this? Samuel Huntington? Bernard Lewis?

The only viable solution is the one-state solution. Grant all Palestinians Israeli citizenship, declare a secular state, include what is ostensibly Palestinian territory in the single state, and finally have a truth an reconciliation commission.

[aranthus]

60. The problem is that Israel is Jewish.

Last edited Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:03 PM - Edit history (1)

Sorry to be so blunt, but until people understand the true nature of the "problem" then they aren't going to be able to deal with it. The author is correct that the problem isn't refugees, settlements, lost land, lack of a Palestinian state, or any of the usual "blame Israel" excuses. However, the problem isn't Islamism either. Now I know that the rise of radical Islam in the last few decades is a problem for the Islamic world and the wider world, but that isn't why the Arabs have been making war on Israel since 1948. Islamists didn't have much influence in the Arab world in 1948. And the Palestinians today (excluding Hamas) are some of the least "Islamicized" Muslims on the planet. Well educated, and more Western influenced than most. So are the Jordanians. None of that made any difference in 1947, and it isn't controlling now. In fact, it's often the most educated and Westernized of Muslims who are leading the anti-Israel charge.

And when in the last few thousand years have Jews had peace with the non-Jewish world? Except for some aberrational Islamic states, and the truly revolutionary society built in the US, there hasn't been a lengthy period of acceptance of Jews just about anywhere. And the author thinks that peace will come about if Muslims learn to treat women better? They treat women very well in Sweden, Norway, France, and various other places in Europe where antisemitism is on the rise. The author is correct that there is a larger issue that the Occupation, but it isn't specifically Islamism. There will always be an excuse. We're outsiders. We're agents of Western Capitalism/Imperialism. We're money lenders. We're Communists. We're the stealers of children's blood. You know all the excuses, but there is really only one reason. Jews are hated because they are Jews. You think that a Jewish state is going to do better than that?

Not to mention, that it could take a very long time for the Arab/Muslim world to liberalize itself. Israel doesn't have that kind of time. The Israelis are correct that withdrawing from the West Bank and allowing a Palestinian state probably won't bring "peace". Sure it's a good thing to help the Arab world modernize and liberalize, but withdrawing is still the right thing to do, morally and strategically. Israel needs to start thinking in terms of making the best deal it can make now. It's a choice between taking a risk with a small chance of leading to peace, or of taking the safe course that guarantees that there won't be peace at all.