Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumUnderstanding the delegitimization of Israel
Israel, like all countries, has a lot of faults; the criticism of these faults will allow the country to overcome these problems and improve as a nation. However, it is important to separate the criticisms that are meant to be constructive and improve the state and the criticisms that are destructive and serve to delegitimize the state.
Delegitimization against Israel has little to do with Palestinian rights as the activists’ claim but everything to do with hatred of the West, Israel, and Jews. This becomes apparent when one asks Palestinian/anti-Israel activists who have no personal connection to the conflict how they feel about the situation in North Korea, Sudan, Eritrea, Saudi Arabia, or any other oppressive society; their response will be silence. Conflicts where the death toll surpassed the entire state of Israel’s wars in a single day will be the same. Similar to queries about the occupation of Arab and Muslim lands by Morocco and China. Ditto for the tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths perpetrated by Arab states such as Jordan, Syria and Lebanon; same goes for the apartheid against Palestinians in Lebanon and Syria, or the expulsion of 500,000 Palestinians from Kuwait; nobody is interested.
Every action done within Israel is closely scrutinized by non-Israelis with the hope of using it to attack the state; something that no other country faces. It has become part of the leftist ethos over the globe to join the cause. As stated by one former anti-Israel activist, when choosing which conflicts to support, there are three questions to ask: “1. Which side is the United States on? 2. Which side has all the money/weaponry? 3. Which side, overall, has lighter skin?” and that’s who the left who is going to target. Most of the conflicts in the world do not fit into this threshold and are consequently ignored by the media and public at large.
In 2011 when Gaddafi was overthrown, one of the most interesting side-effects was the release of Libya’s finances. Libya had paid a consulting firm named Monitor millions of dollars to improve Libya’s image in the west. The firm sponsored prominent western academics to visit Libya and write positive op-eds about Gaddafi and his country. This was followed by millions of dollars in donations to the London School of Economics to ensure that the school promoted favourable views of him and his country.
more...
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-delegitimization-of-israel/
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)that there's a lot of Israeli faults being presented and they are in danger of de-legitimizing themselves. May I suggest that Israel look in the mirror and there upon it will find the real reason it's becoming de-legitimized.
shira
(30,109 posts)...is bound to be disgusted at Israel for doing anything against them.
Lionessa
(3,894 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Lionessa
(3,894 posts)Not all countries are oppressed and abased and crippled such as Israel does to Palestine, regards of Hamas, Fatah, or whatever. Israel's de-legitimization is it's own fault. But instead they want to control the pr campaign...
shira
(30,109 posts)Lionessa
(3,894 posts)And if my countrymen were treated as the Palestinians, I'd be calling for the elimination of them as well. Hell, look at how many we've killed because 3000 of ours went down in the towers...two wars, 100,000s dead, millions displaced, their countries are no more "their" countries compared to where they were, even if they still have the same names. They are entirely different countries than they were, and we killed a hell of a lot of them, most of them innocents, particularly when not one of the 19 terrorists was from Iraq or Afghanistan, most were Saudis.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)The proposed Basic Law nullifying Arabic as an official language needs to be killed immediately; the identity of the State of Israel must not rest on the political and legal extinction of the minority.
Haaretz Editorial | Mar.18, 2013 | 7:18 AM |
Likud-Yisrael Beiteinu and Habayit Hayehudi have agreed as part of their coalition deal to advance a racist Basic Law that would redefine the state’s Jewish and democratic character. While the prime minister is informing the new ministers of their positions, one at a time, based on their electoral strength and their talent in political negotiations, and while the public waits tensely for the “revolution” that the new government has promised to bring, one firm foundation is being faithfully preserved: the foundation of racism.
The proposed Basic Law, which was submitted to the previous Knesset, would nullify Arabic as an official language; make Jewish law the basis for legislation barring any other interpretation; and fail to require the government to build communities for members of other religions - that is, for the country’s Arab citizens.
This insane law, which was only removed from the agenda in the past because of Tzipi Livni’s steadfastness, has now been resurrected due to the strange alliance between Naftali Bennett’s Habayit Hayehudi and Yair Lapid’s Yesh Atid.
If one part of the alliance was intended to bring about the “equal sharing of the burden” - that is, to end the discrimination by and excessive rights for certain groups within the population - then another part of what this racist brotherhood does is shatter the principle of equality that the state owes to all its citizens.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/a-battle-over-identity.premium-1.510161
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)This becomes apparent when one asks Palestinian/anti-Israel activists who have no personal connection to the conflict how they feel about the situation in North Korea, Sudan, Eritrea, Saudi Arabia, or any other oppressive society; their response will be silence.
Their response will be silent...who is this?
Is there a list somewhere in hasbaraville that details Israeli government abuse?
If so, on the list, where is Israel listed? Number?
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)mention the poll you're referring to?
shira
(30,109 posts)http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israels-popularity-sinks-even-lower-2012-new-bbc-global-survey-confirms
http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=270291
http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/diplomania/israel-ranked-alongside-iran-as-one-of-countries-with-most-negative-global-influence-1.430895
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)did not mention this poll? The OP specifically refers to activists. The poll
here represents over 24, 000 people.
Who is he referring to, clearly it is not the poll.
He could have used this poll, but then he could not base his OP on those statements.
He would have needed to explain why so many people from 22 countries rank
Israel so poorly.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)can answer or not.
Evidently, you do not wish to answer my question..I have asked you twice already.
To answer your question, it is obvious to anyone who pays attention to Israeli policy;
the brutal occupation of the Palestinian people is the reason.
shira
(30,109 posts)...than the EU or US.
Try again?
=========
As to your questions, see the link in #10 below WRT Mondoweiss not giving a shit about Hamas violations vs. Palestinians. Their response speaks for you, doesn't it?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)24, 0000 people in 22 countries. Shall I list the countries for you?
Why would so many thousands of people rank Israel so poorly, if not for the occupation?
Getting back to your OP, who is he referring to? Unless you have information from the poll
the 24, 000 plus were activists, he is merely bullshitting.
shira
(30,109 posts)So your answer doesn't work. China ranked ahead of the US and EU. Maybe Israel should have ranked alongside or better than China.
Try again.
=============
As to who the OP is referring to, it's the same anti-zionist left represented by Mondoweiss. See post #10 as to why the Mondoweiss Left (the ISM, PSC, FreeGaza, CodePink) don't criticize Hamas, for example. Same reasoning WRT other countries not funded by the US.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Your OP is not referring to anyone, that he does not call out who you claim he is interesting to me.
Why do you misrepresent the poll?
The BBC poll is here: http://www.globescan.com/images/images/pressreleases/bbc2012_country_ratings/2012_bbc_country%20rating%20final%20080512.pdf
European countries and the EU have fallen sharply in worldwide popularity, an opinion poll for the BBC suggests.
The percentage of those surveyed giving positive views of EU influence dropped by an average of 8% - from 56% to 48% - since the last poll in 2011.
Views of China, on the other hand, improved significantly, allowing it to overtake the EU. Japan replaced Germany as the most popular country.
The poll by Globescan was based on the answers of about 24,000 people in 22 countries.
Respondents were asked to rate the influence in the world of 16 countries and the EU as either "mostly positive" or "mostly negative".
Ratings of the EU and many European countries dropped across the countries surveyed in both 2011 and 2012, when 27 countries were surveyed. Positive views of Britain fell by by 6% and of France by 4%.
"The turmoil in the EU, long seen as an attractive bastion of political and economic stability, has raised doubts in people's minds about its continued ability to be a global leader," the head of polling company GlobeScan, Chris Coulter, said. "Hopes are turning to China."
Germany, the most positively regarded nation last year, saw its positive ratings drop from 60% to 56%, putting it in second place behind Japan, which rose 2% to 58%.
Positive views of China rose from 46% to 50%, with the biggest rises recorded in Britain, Australia, Canada, and Germany.
Views of the US remain broadly unchanged, the poll suggests, with 47% of respondents giving positive views and 33% negative views, compared to 48% and 31% in 2010.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-18038304
shira
(30,109 posts)And how many times do I have to bring up the Mondoweiss article in post #10? It explains perfectly (even though it's rather lame) why the antizionist Left cannot be bothered by anything other than Israel.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Your Op does not state anything about who he is referring to, period.
Where is your information that all these people in 22 countries are reading false information about Israel?
Are they reading Mondoweiss?
What have they read that is inaccurate?
shira
(30,109 posts)It's all the lies, distortions, exaggerations, and demonization. IOW, an intentional and deliberate effort to bash Israel. I just wrote a response to Cali in another thread about the recent NYT magazine article by Ehrenreich WRT Nabi Saleh:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=36057
Another example is the way OTT, batshit insane retarded Haaretz editorial about Jim-Crow, pro-Theocracy Basic Law being proposed by the Knesset.
It's misleading propaganda like that which leads people to believe Israel is as bad as N.Korea and Pakistan. Kinda like reading JihadWatch and believing every kooky conspiracy there about the dreaded Mooozlims. Same thing happening here against the evil Jooooz.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)anyone by name. As I said several times now, your OP is filled with generalizations and has a record
of condemning Harretz. Daniel Frank is a coward of a writer, and supports his nonsense with mere rhetoric, much as
you do.
Back to BBC poll:
Please tell me if you think each of the following countries is having a mainly positive or mainly
negative influence in the world.
Factors shaping perceptions of Israel
(see note at top of page 7 for details )
For those who held negative views of Israel influence in the world, the foreign policy of the
Israeli State is by some distance the main reason explaining their negative rating (45%).
The way Israel treats its own people stands out as the second most important
reason (27%).
Of those holding positive views, Jewish traditions and culture
are cited by 29 per cent closely followed by foreign policy (26%).
see in full: http://www.globescan.com/images/images/pressreleases/bbc2012_country_ratings/2012_bbc_country%20rating%20final%20080512.pdf
So, you're holding Haaretz, and Mondoweiss responsible for Israel's being ranked so low,
is that correct?
B'Tselem, HRW and AI are to blame as well? The UN?
Your opinion pieces are stunningly sordid, it is truly sad.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)The proposed Basic Law, which was submitted to the previous Knesset, would nullify Arabic as an official language; make Jewish law the basis for legislation barring any other interpretation; and fail to require the government to build communities for members of other religions - that is, for the country’s Arab citizens.
Reverse that now.
How horrible does that sound? Pretty bad, huh?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
shira
(30,109 posts)...about delegitimization and how retardedly batshit idiotic criticism of Israel gets. They may as well be accusing Jews of using Xtian blood for matzo, protocols of zion, poisoning the wells, using anti-Palestinian penis-shrinking ray guns.
un.fucking.believable.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)The proposed Basic Law, which was submitted to the previous Knesset, would nullify Arabic as an official language; make Jewish law the basis for legislation barring any other interpretation; and fail to require the government to build communities for members of other religions - that is, for the country’s Arab citizens.
This insane law, which was only removed from the agenda in the past because of Tzipi Livni’s steadfastness, has now been resurrected due to the strange alliance between Naftali Bennett’s Habayit Hayehudi and Yair Lapid’s Yesh Atid.
If one part of the alliance was intended to bring about the “equal sharing of the burden” - that is, to end the discrimination by and excessive rights for certain groups within the population - then another part of what this racist brotherhood does is shatter the principle of equality that the state owes to all its citizens.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/a-battle-over-identity.premium-1.510161
shira
(30,109 posts)...not just extreme, whacko fringe types, who not only advocate for racist Jim-Crow policy but also for an Israeli theocracy? And you believe this has even the slightest chance at being passed?
There is no such legislation. Find other articles speaking of the specifics of this proposed Basic Law and you'll find nothing of the sort mentioned. At best, you'll find Haaretz is badly distorting what is being proposed.
I'm stunned Haaretz would write such a loony, batshit editorial.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)It's good to know you have such contempt for Haaretz.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)When you can't refute the article or what the lawmakers are talking about or planning to make a twisted reality then bring in the Xtian blood for matzo, protocols of zion and poisoning the wells to do your work for you.
So now, let's get you back to reality if you dare. Leave the straw man at the door.
shira
(30,109 posts)...come early.
Seriously, you believe that idiocy?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I don't believe that you have digested what I have written, and for that matter the "matter" of the article that Jefferson has posted.
If you don't like Haaretz perhaps you can start a petition drive to have it made illegal within the confines of I/P.
Perhaps you can suggest that Haaretz is conspiring with destructive anti-Zionistas to delegitimize the state?
jollyreaper2112
(1,941 posts)Those conflicts don't have as intricate lobbying efforts going on in this country. The Christians of Darfur don't have J Street. The US isn't providing billions in military aid each year. Presidential candidates don't trip over themselves taking sides in those other conflicts.
The reaction against Israeli behavior is directly proportional to lobbyist visibility. You raise a question until it becomes something everyone hears about, don't be surprised when people find answers you don't like.
Call it a bieber effect. The people who hate him wouldn't care except he's a pop culture overexposure.
Besides, Jews may see themselves as alone in a lion's den but all the public sees are guys with guns oppressing children with rocks. There's no way that looks good. Are the Palestinians deliberately creating bad optics? Well, do you have to go along with it?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)let's start with your little snip
actually with regard to Syria nothing could be more false but I hate to inform that there have been an estimated 70,000+ deaths in Syria a small fraction of them Palestinian, but yet we to ignore those other Arabs and concentrate on only the Palestinian deaths, the expulsion of 500,000 Palestinians from Kuwait happened in 1991 under the aegis of the first Gulf war and sadly did go largely noticed but not because it was poor victimized or so we were being told at the time Kuwait, but because we were being steered to pay attention to Saddam's raining down antiquated scuds on Israel, and then Morocco and China occupying Muslim lands do tell of course you're talking about Western Sahara in the case of Morocco sadly the media pays little attention to what happens in Africa, unless of course the West becomes involved and China is Tibet Muslim?
luv it which side has lighter skin lol, that's a good one really it is can you tell us, really I want your opinion on that gem
then we skip on to this
really Israel and it's supporters have never ever done things quite similar, will you with a straight face tell us no?
shira
(30,109 posts)I give them props for answering Beinart.
They're lame, but at least they responded. Which is more than can be said about many here who fear answering the simplest questions....
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but you can think it's fear if you like
shira
(30,109 posts)Mondoweiss' lame response only shows why anti-zionists are better off not answering.
They have no good answers.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)well keep tellin' yourself that 
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Is that anything like the gay agenda?
delrem
(9,688 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)Paste that into google search and click the link from www.foreignpolicy.com.
This gets you past the firewall. It's a general trick to pass paywalls/firewalls, don't go direct but through a google link.
You read this paragraph:
"The Saudi government runs one of the most backward and xenophobic judicial systems on the planet. There is no formal legal code. Judges must all espouse the government-approved Salafi version of Islam. Blacks, who make up around 10 percent of the population, are banned from judgeships -- as are women and Muslims who observe a different version of the faith -- because the monarchy's religious tradition still views blacks as slaves, other Muslims as heretics, and women as half human. There is only one word to describe such a system: apartheid."
This article paints Saudi Arabia as quite different but worse than Israel. It paints the corruption, the inhumanity.
I found the link at "Angry Arab" blog. As'ad AbuKhalil is very harsh critic of Israel (PLEASE, hold the venom for a blanken moment!) but, as shown by this link, is just as or even more vociferous in his condemnation of the ugly dictatorships in the surrounding countries. He's a hard leftist, secularist, who sees no good room for religion in politics - much as the founders of the USA decided to distance religion from politics.
So why don't you just quit the whining and address the real problems at hand. OK, right, the hatred and venom is too deep for reason to penetrate.
shira
(30,109 posts)See post #22 for links.
shira
(30,109 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)So what's really going on?
Give it a shot.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)We don't eve hear about them.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rt_china.htm
Tibet has the Dalai Lama as a spokesperson. Most others have no one.
shira
(30,109 posts)What makes Israel worse than China?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)they are an ethnic minority in China and they have been mentioned on DU and oh China is not alone in oppressing Muslim Uyghurs, the US is/was holding several at Gitmo
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4704288
however you are quite wrong in that no one represents them as FreeTibet does 
delrem
(9,688 posts)Perhaps Israel doesn't do well at Hasbara?
No, wait just a feckin second here, recall this OP
"Americans’ sympathy for Israel at 22-year high"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=35701
It doesn't appear that you're complaining about that, does it?
Oh yes, I get it now. It's called "cherry picking data to support an agenda" - even if it it's one of the silliest that can be imagined . In this case an agenda of "poor picked on Israel", and "the whole world is antisemitic and doesn't give Israel a fair hearing", and "I'm by nature a victim and all who disagree with me, with what I do, are victimizers - the facts be damned."
I still say: Give it a bloody rest. The Palestinian people have a right to live and the hate you spew at them day after day doesn't help any effort to share space.
Maybe you could ask, instead, why so few US citizens have a feckin clue about the state of civil rights in Saudi Arabia, in the GCC countries, in Bahrain - yet why so many clueless dorks are hot to trot to war against Syria, Iran, for supposed "humanitarian interventionist reasons" or "WMD"?? I know these questions aren't beyond DU contributors to tackle, even tho' reasonable responses have to go beyond the parameters allocated to Dem/Rep debate and seriously question the militaristic, imperialistic points of congruence between tweedledum and tweedledee, and how both Dems and Reps get away without such a debate in a so-called "democracy".
I agree with you that I/P isn't the only problem in the ME, or even the deepest and most intractable problem, and that the scope of debate has to be broadened, but I most certainly don't agree that your incessant finger pointing at Tibet, N. Korea, Venezuela, etc., has *any* relevance.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)-Shira
delrem
(9,688 posts)I wouldn't spend any time trying to get through to it.
For the 99% part I just ignore it - it's always the same - and save my time for more worthwhile things.
I've only got so much time for politics, and the issues are too important to waste time on a troll. To say nothing of the fact that the purpose of the troll is divert the topic on *every* thread.
Last edited Tue Mar 19, 2013, 10:33 AM - Edit history (1)
When you at a loss of argument it's good to call a fellow DU member a "troll".
Shira brings out a visceral "hate" In those who see the nasty reflection in the mirror.
It's amusing to see those here that actually hate her because of her defense of Jews and Israel .
Her arguments are closer to the position of our president that her detractors , just watch the news in the next few days.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)If you are looking in the mirror and seeing an nasty reflection then perhaps it is time to reexamine your actions at DU.
King_David
(14,851 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
"I guess Malmo’s mayor is the same as a few posters here in IP on DU
Not antisemitic at all.. Just antiZionist .."
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Tue Mar 19, 2013, 07:38 AM - Edit history (1)
....anything going on WRT Israel, whether by activists or the media? You think all the "facts" speak for themselves and generally speaking, what you read about Israel is honest, accurate, and not in any way "anti-Israel"?
No bullshit, okay?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)beats and murders a thousand?
When the first person declares that they are a democracy and they stand for democratic principals what then?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)because it is Israel's occupation of Palestine that is being "delegitimized" not Israel itself, something that leads me to believe that
A this is a willful misinterpretation along with the accompaniments that we see here a sputtered but what about .......... name any other oppressed group how come you don't say anything about them, well perhaps because we are not on that subject, in fact it's a strawman that was thrown in as a diversion- and I'm not playing that little game with you
or perhaps
B to at least some of Israel's supporters there is really no occupation, just a bunch of interloping Arabs living on Israeli land
shira
(30,109 posts)...of delegitimization.
You just willfully deny it's happening.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)This should be good.
