Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumMass arrest of Palestinian children on their way to school in Hebron –
– at least 5 under the age of criminal responsibilityPublished:
20 Mar 2013
Update: On the day of the incident B’Tselem wrote to the Legal Advisor in Judea and Samaria, the Legal Advisor of the Israel Police and to the spokesperson for the Judea and Samaria Division regarding this issue. The officials confirmed that, further to a stone-throwing incident earlier that morning, the military apprehended 27 minors, including at least 14 under the age of 12. Later, the military released 20 of the minors to the custody of the Palestinian Authority. The other seven minors were questioned by the police. B’Tselem stressed the following: minors should not be questioned without their parents’ knowledge and the presence of an adult representative on their behalf; the police is duty-bound to inform parents immediately upon the detention of their children; it is unlawful to detain or transport minors under the age of 12.
B'Tselem this morning urgently contacted the Army's Legal Advisor for Judea and Samaria, Col. Doron Ben Barak, demanding his emergency intervention regarding the detention of numerous children, including some as young as 8 to 10 years old, by the Israeli military this morning in Hebron.
Preliminary information received this morning by B'Tselem indicates that the army today conducted mass arrests near the area known as route 160 in Hebron/ Soldiers detained or arrested over twenty minors on their way to school. About ten of them were released. As is known to B'Tselem at this point, among the children detained by the military are at least five children 8 to 10 years old, with possibly others below the age of criminal responsibility who cannot legally be arrested. Conversations with the Hebron police indicate that some of the children have been taken for interrogation by a youth interrogator.
In a conversation between B'Tselem and the spokesman for the military's Judea and Samaria Division, we were told that the children and youths taken away by the military may have been involved in throwing stones and Molotov cocktails. If there are specific suspicions against youths over the age of criminal responsibility, the police have the authority to detain them and interrogate them, but this cannot justify the mass detention of youths for unspecified suspicions, let alone the arrest or detention of children under twelve.
http://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20130320_minors_detained_in_hebron
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delrem
(9,688 posts)
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)in the West Bank one law for Israeli settler children and another for Palestinian children
Israeli children cannot be jailed under the age of 14, while Palestinian children as young as 12 have been held by Israel. Israeli children must be given access to a lawyer within 48 hours, whereas Palestinians can be held for three months without legal aid.
Israel is also breaking international humanitarian law by transferring Palestinian children from an occupied territory into Israel, it notes.
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=534074
apparently the age for Palestinian children is now 8 years of age
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat Mar 23, 2013, 05:40 AM - Edit history (1)
Arafat on Palestinian Authority TV: Dead Palestinian children are the greatest message to the worldUntil this message is utterly rejected by Palestinian society, their war vs. Israel will never end.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)except to divert attention? But that is par for the course here
shira
(30,109 posts)&feature=player_embedded
Excuse the IDF, for what? For arresting rock throwing children used as militants against innocent people?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)
shira
(30,109 posts)&feature=player_embedded
The problem isn't with the IDF arresting rock-throwing children. The problem is with the vile adults encouraging this behavior. It's disturbing that the so-called "pro Palestinian" contingent is apathetic to such sick and abusive Palestinian child abuse and more motivated to demonize IDF for actually doing something about it.
It's also impossible for objective, reasonable people to understand what's happening w/o the context. Don't you agree?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)military detention of 8 year old children but your continued use of known rightwing propaganda groups does give an impression
shira
(30,109 posts)They are foreigners, hence military detention. It's not exactly a local police matter like it would be if it were happening in E.Jerusalem.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I'm going to repeat your comment here
View profile
They are foreigners, hence military detention. It's not exactly a local police matter like it would be if it were happening in E.Jerusalem.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=36953
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)link's origin of each of your videos, I do not open your links any longer, unless I know in advance.
Where did you find this meaning, Hebron Palestinians are not domestic residents?
shira
(30,109 posts)
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Who do you think are the domestic residents of Hebron? This curious mind wants to know...
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I wonder why?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Must be a glitch in hasbaraville this evening.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)You must have missed spotting the posts in this part of the thread asking you what you meant by that...
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)YES IT IS A PROBLEM! No-one but an extremist can sit there and not see any problem with the IDF arresting Palestinian children like that.
The problem is with the vile adults encouraging this behavior.
You've had it explained to you many times that parents don't encourage their kids to go out and throw stones (I'm noting for anyone reading that you have zero to say when you've been shown pics and videos of settlers throwing stones at Palestinians). The kids do it because of the danger aspect of it, because they know the IDF will shoot people for daring to throw stones at them. I gave you an example of where Barghouti had responded angrily to finding out his teenage son was out throwing stones after he'd been forbidden to do it. But yr clearly too wrapped up in trying to spread hatred of Palestinian civilians to retain that information. Either that or yr willingly ignoring it because the hatred just runs too deep for facts and stuff that shows Palestinians are every bit the same as any other human being to come into it.
It's disturbing that the so-called "pro Palestinian" contingent is apathetic to such sick and abusive Palestinian child abuse and more motivated to demonize IDF for actually doing something about it.
See above for some actual facts. You don't know what yr talking about when it comes to Palestinian civilians.
It's also impossible for objective, reasonable people to understand what's happening w/o the context. Don't you agree?
That's why I encourage anyone interested in teh conflict to use yr flood of posts as one example of the extremism that takes hold on both sides of the conflict, and when wanting to learn about the conflict, to go and read some of the really good and objective books out there. Of course if anyone's been reading this group for a while and thinks you are a voice on the conflict that's objective and reasonable, then there's no hope of them learning anything but hate..
shira
(30,109 posts)Talk about extreme. Several videos were posted demonstrating how in Palestinian society the children are encouraged by adults to become hate-filled militants and martyrs for the cause.
And there you are denying what must be some of the sickest shit going on in this conflict.
There's no point indulging you any further....
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Yet again you totally ignored it because it doesn't fit in with yr vision of Palestinians being monsters who are deserving of the vitriolic hatred you aim at them...
So you take yr routine where you ignore mistreatment of Palestinians by inventing something that doesn't exist (brutal parents telling kiddies to go throw stones), and saying it's the 'sickest shit'. I wouldn't say this about others who identify as pro-Israel in this group, but in yr case it's so painfully clear that yr intense antipathy towards Palestinians blinds you to reason which explains why you totally ignore it when it's pointed out to you that Palestinian teenagers, like other teenagers, have minds of their own and tend to go and do things that are dangerous, preferably if their parents are telling them not to. One day I hope you'll learn that Palestinians aren't the monstrous robotic things you make them out to be, and you'll show the same level of sensitivity and concern towards them that you do towards Israeli Jews ...
shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Of course *you* don't think that crap is extremist, because it's right up yr alley.
But rational and objective people don't take what's claimed by extremists as being fact. That you believe so easily that Palestinian parents are brutal monsters says a whole lot about you, and the pathetic attempts on yr part to divert attention away from anyone daring to criticise (or in yr words 'demonise') the IDF is just so utterly pathetic.
shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I don't educate myself using extremist vitriolic and fucking ugly hate.
That you sit there and post extremist views repeatedly in this thread and the only time you've mentioned the OP was to say that the IDF arresting children isn't a problem for you is revolting and the sort of attitude that shouldn't be welcome at DU...
shira
(30,109 posts)There won't be peace so long as that's encouraged and rewarded in Palestinian society.
Not that you give a flying fuck...
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)You not only condone the IDF arresting Palestinian children, but you immediately swing into the worn-out routine where you try to portray Palestinian parents as monsters who hate their own children. Now you trot out the extremist sounding 'child sacrifice'? And then pretend you actually care at all about Palestinian kids? It's strange that you never ever care if they're being mistreated at the hands of Israel, because you don't believe anything Israel ever does is mistreatment...
Is there anything at all in this world you don't blame on Palestinian civilians? Seriously, the hatred I'm seeing from you is disgusting in the extreme.
shira
(30,109 posts)When faced with the sickest, most vile form of child-sacrifice being encouraged throughout Palestinian society, you go on the attack, denying and ignoring it.
I'm not sure it's possible to hate and loathe Palestinian children anymore than you guys are demonstrating here, now.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Much like when I'm confronted by an antisemite trying to tell me they're showing me the truth that I'm supposedly ignoring, I'm calling bullshit on the extreme opposite that's happening now....
Shira, if you want people to actually believe a word you say, you should actually try criticising the IDF for its treatment of Palestinian children instead of flailing around and blaming all Palestinian parents by making up some bullshit claim that they encourage them to throw stones (aka child sacrifice apparently), then projecting and accusing everyone else of hating Palestinian kids when you get called out on the blatant extremism of yr views and the hatred towards Palestinians displayed by trying to portray parents as monstrous creatures who are like robots and not real human beings.
Revolting.
shira
(30,109 posts)...is because you enjoy the way Israel is portrayed when they're forced to deal with the consequences. That makes you just as bad as the adults responsible for encouraging the children. You're covering their asses.
Your contempt vs. Israel outweighs any compassion you have for Palestinian children.
Better that Israel is demonized having to deal with this sick shit than you or the proper authorities condemning the depraved content in those videos.
You're fooling no one.
For you to admit that's some pretty sick shit going on in Palestinian society is too much - it's against the cause.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Because I'm getting tired of having to explain it to you again and again, only to see you pop up somewhere else in the thread peddling that shit you posted links to as though there's nothing wrong with it.
1. The site responsible for those vids, while being just up yr alley, is an extremist anti-Palestinian one. It's the equivalent of posting from an antisemitic site and insisting that people must give what they say about Israelis credence.
2. You've turned up with links to all sorts of unrelated stuff when asked to back up yr claim that Palestinian parents encourage their children to throw stones, and went on to call it 'child sacrifice' and the sickest thing ever.
3. It's not just me that's noticed that you don't care about Palestinian children due to the antipathy aimed at Palestinian civilians and that you don't care at all when they're mistreated by Israelis.
4. You have no knowledge at all of Palestinian society apart from what you see on yr extremist sites. I offered to give you a list of books to read and you refused the offer, because yr not interested...
shira
(30,109 posts)Pretend all you want that the content in those 3 videos from PMW is fabricated, modified, hateful, or from the planet Mars. You're not fooling anyone, not even yourself.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Reading your opinions, I understand why.
Pal Watch is not in that league.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Nope, that's not bullshit. Repeatedly pointing out *why* it's extremist hatefilled swill even though I know that just like every time in the past you'll ignore that because it's an extremism that doesn't offend you? Nope, that's not bullshit either.
I think one thing nearly everyone here's aware of is yr fondness for promoting a vision of Palestinian civilians that's dripping with hate. This isn't the first time you've run with making false claims you've been corrected on (in this case the Palestinian parents encourage their children to throw stones one), and it won't be the last. What all of them have in common, though, is the intent of having everyone believe Palestinians aren't like other human beings, parents, sisters, brothers, friends, etc. The picture portrayed is a savage and brutal one where Palestinians aren't capable of human emotions. It's the same sort of base and crude stereotyping that antisemites do when it comes to Jews, and both types of bigoted extremists are soul-mates and have more in common than they think. Neither are interested in a fair and peaceful resolution to the conflict where both people live together in peace, because their visions of one people dominating the other less worthy people and crushing them into submission is far more important than piddly stuff like human rights, fairness or equality.
Isn't it time for you to accuse me of hating Palestinians again? That's always such a good and stirring comeback!
btw Shira. A few of us have been asking you to answer a question in a bit of the thread you vanished from. Y'know, where you said the Palestinians of Hebron weren't domestic residents? Could you trot back up there and explain why you think Palestinians in Hebron aren't domestic residents, and who you think actually are domestic residents of Hebron?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=37047
shira
(30,109 posts)It's called fucking reality.
You don't want to deal with it? Fine. I realize you don't give a shit what Palestinians do to children in that society, but don't blame Israelis for having to actually deal with the results.
Palestinians are very capable of doing the right thing. They should be held accountable for the content of those videos. Criticism is not demonization. Of course, I realize you find just about all criticism of Palestinians demonization. But when you ignore/deny the PMW content, you're pretty much supporting it for reasons explained already (so you can portray Israelis as sick, irrational twisted bastards when they have to actually confront that sickening reality).
Is any of this sinking in with you yet? Let me know and I'll explain even more clearly next time around...
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)stones is the limit.
lol@ your love for the Palestinians, especially their children.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Like hell you are.
shira
(30,109 posts)....about those you purport to care so much about. You're anti-Israel, so Palestinian children can go to hell martyring themselves all they want so long as the cause (the revolution) continues vs. Israel. Your hate knows no bounds...
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)e-mails to you?
shira
(30,109 posts)But here's Barghouti in an interview saying that throwing rocks is peaceful....
By Aaron Lerner Mon May 5 1997
IMRA interviewed Marwan Barghouti, Secretary General of Fatah in the West
Bank, in English:
IMRA: The English translation we have of the Fatah decisions from the March
23rd meeting includes a "call on the masses of the people to go out against
the settlements via all legal means..." Is that an accurate translation -
"legal".
Barghouti: Yes. By "legal" we mean "peaceful."
IMRA: What kind of "peaceful" activities do you have in mind. Can you give
some examples?
Barghouti: Peaceful activities. Demonstrations, marching.
IMRA: Rock throwing?
Barghouti: You mean stone throwing.
IMRA: Stone throwing?
Barghouti: Yes. Including stones. I don't think that stones are violence. It
is peaceful to throw stones.
IMRA: You also call on the people to "close the bypass roads before settler
traffic." How do you see closing the roads?
Barghouti: With stones.
IMRA: Throw stones at the cars?
Barghouti: Close the roads by putting stones in the road.
IMRA: This is legal?
Barghouti: Of course it is legal
http://www.israelbehindthenews.com/bin/content.cgi?ID=587&q=1
It's odd you bring up examples of actual extremists like Barghouti when you attempt to portray your opponents as extremists.
And what is Barghouti doing, other than calling on all Palestinians (presumably children as well) to participate in fun activities with stones...?
Un.real.
Hayabusa
(2,135 posts)Just curious, especially since this time it seems to have little to do with the thread save for the word "Children"
shira
(30,109 posts)Those purporting to care so much for Palestinian children cannot be bothered to voice disagreement with the society, adults, NGO's, and "peace activists" trying so hard to sacrifice them for the cause.
Exposing depraved, sanctimonious hypocrisy never gets old. It's like an obligation.
delrem
(9,688 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)that are germane to the article and this thread. Disgusting. You quote a decades old quote by Arafat who has been dead for almost a decade.
I can't begin to tell you how pathetic that response is.
shira
(30,109 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)Seriously screwed up to not address the op itself.
shira
(30,109 posts)Do you believe those pretending to be most offended by Israel's actions really care about Palestinian children? To the point of vociferously condemning the adults & society responsible for the childrens' actions?
If you think they do, you're more lost than I thought...
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Carry on, shill.
shira
(30,109 posts)That they don't goes to show they're politically compromised & really don't believe in the western liberal concept universal human rights.
Until then they have no credibility.
Any rights organization condoning the child sacrifice going on in Palestinian society has no right to be operating.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)You've been corrected on this one so many times it's not funny, yet you keep on coming back with it in an almost bot-like way.
That B'selem doesn't do the bidding of those holding extremist views means that B'tselem has lots of crediblity. And if the 'western liberal concept (of) universal human rights' is the one you hold where you blatantly ignore abuse of Palestinians by settlers, justify the killing of Palestinians by the IDF, condone those who would keep the Palestinians as a people without the same level of human rights as other people, and invents things with which to demonise and spread hatred of Palestinian civilians, count me the fuck out of that concept.
shira
(30,109 posts)...how in Palestinian society the most vile, despicable forms of child abuse are encouraged and rewarded by adults.
That they don't condemn all that goes to show how they should no longer exist as a human rights organization.
That you pretend not to see anything wrong with the aforementioned child abuse goes to show what your advocacy is really all about.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Let us know their response.
Considering how so many of your videos have been propaganda I personally may
send them to B'Tselem myself.
shira
(30,109 posts)Child sacrifice is okay with all of you, so long as it supports the cause (vs. Israel).
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Child sacrifice, how you do go on. Sad lot you are and Pal Watch..the settlers love fest.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Pal Watch, the settlers love fest website.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Figured you were. You've been told repeatedly that parents don't do that, but yr intense hatred of Palestinians is blinding you to seeing what's right in front of yr face.
I definitely see something wrong with the displayed virulent hatred of Palestinian civilians that's been displayed in this thread. That you think you have any authority to say whether or not any human rights organisation should exist is a complete joke, given the contempt you've shown for the human rights of Palestinians.
shira
(30,109 posts)She was seen as a hero and respected throughout the Palestinian territories. Even by Sari Nusseibi...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umm_Nidal
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Looks to me like yr wildly flailing around trying to use things that aren't even related to try to support yr broadbrush smear of Palestinian parents. Fucking typical...
shira
(30,109 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)And PMW, while being just yr cup of tea, is an extremist settler supporters dream. No-one with an ounce of sense is going to take a bunch of extremists claiming that Palestinian parents encourage their kids to throw stones at heavily armed IDF troops as the truth. And then they turn around and expect us to believe their bullshit when they tell us they care about Palestinian kids? Fucking bullshit!
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)B"tselem, nothing.
shira
(30,109 posts)Not much different than the video of "Shirley Temper" a few months ago showing how the parents of little girls encouraged them to goad IDF soldiers into reacting against them for the camera.
If you watched the 3 videos posted here from PMW, you'd see why parents are doing that.
Instead, you're pretending none of that happens & therefore condoning what has to be some of the most sick and disgusting child-abuse imaginable.
Your hate vs. Palestinian children knows no bounds.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)But keep on bringing up unrelated single instances of something else to use as some weak attempt to back up what is an ugly and hatemongering attempt to spread hatred of Palestinian parents by dishonestly portraying them as monsters and somehow different than everyone else...
And then you've got the nerve to accuse me of hating Palestinian children? Put the mirror down. Just because people are speaking up about the extremism and hatred of Palestinians you've displayed in this thread and others going back a long way does not mean that they hate Palestinians. Because they don't swallow the attempts to portray Palestinian civilians as hatefilled monsters also doesn't mean that they hate Palestinians. The reason people are saying you do display a hatred towards Palestinians is the way you attempt to portray them as monsters, and also that you blame them for anything and everything that Israel does. You hold them to a completely different standard than you hold any other people to, and if I had the time I'd go find the link to where you compared them to Nazis and then doubled down by insisting you were right and anyone who disagreed hated Palestinians.
Sick...
shira
(30,109 posts)...to deny and ignore the most repulsive, perverse forms of child abuse imaginable (a hatred to itself) so that you can keep attacking and bashing Israel and its defenders (the other hate you demonstrate here daily).
Why not just own up to it?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)As usual.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)You haven't even been bothering to read or digest what anyone's been saying to you in this thread, have you?
So let me get this straight. The performance in this thread where you condone Israel mass-arresting Palestinian children (you also claimed Palestinians weren't domestic residents of Hebron in another post) and launch into posting links to an extremist anti-Palestinian site's videos, which is very similar behaviour we've seen from you going back to ones like where you equate Palestinian society with Nazi society (I can grab the link from DU2 if anyone doesn't believe that one happened) isn't hate, but someone who supports a peaceful resolution to the conflict, who sees Arabs and Jews as equals, who opposes attacks on Israel, who supports Israel's right to exist, and who dares to utter any criticism of Israel for its treatment of the Palestinians is full of hate? You have the unfortunate habit of believing that everyone is as extreme in their views as you are, when most DUers actually do support a peaceful and fair resolution to the conflict and don't hate one side or the other the way you do.
Better not keep you. I'm sure you've got some left-wing Israelis lined up somewhere to scream at that they're anti-Israel because they don't see the conflict in the superiority riddled and dominating way you tend to 
shira
(30,109 posts)I read your blather. It's horse shit.
You can't seriously claim to support a peaceful resolution to the conflict when you deliberately ignore and deny the vile, sick, and depraved content of those PMW videos showing how mainstream Palestinian child-sacrifice is within that society. So long as that disgusting encouragement for child martyrs continues, with the silent consent of people like yourself, there won't be any peace.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I'd like to read that. Got the link?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)I pity you.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)your statement.
Hilarious if it were not so tragic.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Police are used domestically. Hebron Palestinians aren't domestic residents....
View profile
They are foreigners, hence military detention. It's not exactly a local police matter like it would be if it were happening in E.Jerusalem.
I have asked you how you cam to confirm such a thing, please explain...you have yet to do so.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)to equate militant to a kid throwing a rock. Ignore their frustration, ignore the fact there is
no military to protect them from the continuous settlement expansion on land that is
OCCUPIED by Israel.
Ignore laws that prohibit any child below a stated age to be detained as B'Tselem has
pointed out.
No one really gives a flying fuck what you think about any human rights group, btw.
shira
(30,109 posts)That's about as vile and reprehensible as it gets.
And you're all on board with it...
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)on edit for spelling.
shira
(30,109 posts)I'm not sure you guys can sink any lower than ignoring and denying the most sick, depraved form of child abuse (sacrifice) imaginable.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)usually 30 to 40 seconds long and then tells us what we should think
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)usual stuff from that poster
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)criminal responsibility being lower for Israeli settler children than for Palestinian children? How do you justify that?
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I'm safely guessing there'll be not one whimper of disapproval from you, and that most likely you'll continue to try to divert attention to how evil the Palestinians are and how everything's always their fault.
But there's no harm in asking, seeing as how there's an audience reading this who must be scratching their heads wondering why you immediately posted in this thread trying to divert attention away from criticism of the IDF...
shira
(30,109 posts)That's how they are being used by the greater Palestinian society - against Israel's soldiers and against its civilians.
It's a military matter, not necessarily for the police to handle.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)I don't think there's been a single thing in this conflict that you haven't rushed to blame the Palestinians for.
I'll leave you to yr festering hatred...
delrem
(9,688 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Whether it's announcing that Palestinians in Hebron aren't domestic residents of Hebron, telling an Israeli posting here that they're anti-Israel, or going back further to the massacre in Norway where attempts were made to attack the victims for daring to be pro-Palestinian and attending workshops at the camp, I've seen little there that I wouldn't be able to read if I went and hung out at Masada2000...
shira
(30,109 posts)Those videos demonstrate what has to be just about the sickest, most vile and disgusting form of child sacrifice imaginable.
You apparently ignore it due to the damage Israel incurs each time they're forced to deal with it.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Benny Morris' remarks that Ben-Gurion ought to have ordered the ethnic cleansing of 100% of non-Jews, from the Jordan river to the Sea, back in '48 when he had the chance - your pretext being that these non-Jewish civilians were engaged in "genocide".
Unfortunately, you weren't the only one - there were three of you claiming that the ethnic cleansing of the Nakba, as described by Morris, was righteous - as necessary foundation for founding a specifically Jewish state on this already inhabited land.
Those are not sane views. They show no understanding of cause/effect, action/reaction, and they show no sense of proportionality, to say nothing of the difference between "civilian" and "military" in wartime. To my mind, extreme self-centered/ethnocentric views such as that might possibly be dealt with within the safety and control mechanisms of a psychiatric ward, by a psychiatrist (or team) who has some knowledge of how to deal with the general pathology, but it's a waste of time (or it could be downright debilitating) to engage with such a person in an internet forum.
shira
(30,109 posts)Is that what you're seriously claiming?
And you have the audacity to accuse others of being deniers like Ernst Zundel?
Un.real.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)you've got your history confused again
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)we'll be hearing about shira's favoritest Palestinian of all time 
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but thanks for being predictable you 
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)And that she's not alone, and that such incredible extremism should be some kind of norm at DU.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)these views as requiring anti-psychotic medication you should probably make sure you understand the reasoning behind them. From what I've read you are pretty confused as to where this opinion comes from and fail to regard how it fits into the historical timeline.
To call such a respected historian as Benny Morris evil and racist shows pretty clearly your lack of understanding. Or at least it shows a willingness to prematurely label people who disagree with terms that should be reserved for people who actually fit the definition. I really doubt you're even getting what Benny Morris was saying in that interview.
Additionally, if you are going to judge actions from 60 years ago though you must do so within the context of the day.
delrem
(9,688 posts)There's a difference between recounting a history which includes Ben-Gurion's orchestration of the Nakba, and agreeing with Ben-Gurion and saying you'd do the same with nary a pang of conscience.
There's a difference between recounting that history and criticizing Ben-Gurion for not going far enough, explaining that in your opinion the Nakba should have been complete and final, a 100% ethnic cleansing of all non-Jews from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean.
There has been no argument about the history Benny Morris recounted (except that I note that he was still digging up more gruesome facts about the deliberate intent of the Nakba when he did that interview and expressed those racist opinions in 2004). You have been agreeing with the spine chillingly racist opinions of the man, not just to the fact that the history that those opinions relate to occurred.
g'day, I'm now most certainly signing off from this discussion. I find it upsetting. There is nothing you can say that will convince me that such cold blooded racism is either morally righteous in intent or legally righteous when put into action.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)IDF is, lending the question as to just who sees an 8 year old as a militant
delrem
(9,688 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)March 2013
Since 1994, when settler Baruch Goldstein massacred Moslem worshipers in the Tomb of the Patriarchs, the Israeli military has employed a "policy of separation" in Hebron. This is implemented primarily through severe restrictions on Palestinian movement in downtown Hebron, where most Israeli settlement outposts are located. Lately the military has further entrenched this policy by building a fence dividing a central street in half and only allowing Jews to use the paved side of the street while Palestinians must use a rough, unpaved passage.
http://www.btselem.org/video/136727
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Published:
5 Mar 2013
Israeli security forces divided a road in the center of Hebron, separating it into a paved road for Jews and a narrow, rough passage for Palestinians
Since 1994, when settler Baruch Goldstein massacred Moslem worshipers in the Tomb of the Patriarchs, the Israeli military has adopted an official policy of separating Jews and Moslems in the city of Hebron. The policy is implemented primarily through severe restrictions on Palestinian travel and movement in downtown Hebron, where most Israeli settlement outposts are located. Some of the main roads in the area are completely off limits to Palestinians, and many roads bar any and all Palestinian vehicles. Israel’s strict restrictions have made the lives of Palestinians in downtown Hebron intolerable, forcing many to leave their homes and jobs.
One of the roads prohibited to Palestinian vehicles runs through the neighborhood of a-Salaimeh and leads to the Tomb of the Patriarchs. The road is about 70 meters long and has a checkpoint at either end: the Bakery Checkpoint at the northern end of the road and the Bench Checkpoint at its southern end. Until recently, Israeli security forces permitted Palestinian pedestrians and cyclists on the street. In order to transport supplies through the street, Palestinians were forced to use a horse-drawn wagon or a hand cart. Settlers and Israeli civilians are permitted to walk and drive cars on the street.
On 23 September 2012 Israeli security forces laid out a chain-link fence, dividing the road lengthwise. On one side of the fence is a paved road and on the other, a narrow pedestrian passageway. Since the fence was erected, Israeli security forces have not allowed Palestinians to walkon the road. Instead they direct Palestinians to the narrow passageway, which is unpaved, rough and ends in a small staircase. The passage is completely impassible by wheelchair and is very difficult to navigate with a baby carriage, pushcart or bicycle. B’Tselem videoed the construction of the fence and of Border Police keeping Palestinians from going on the road.
http://www.btselem.org/hebron/20130304_new_fence_in_hebron
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Baruch Goldstein's attack did not go unpunished
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)
Smilo
(1,944 posts)Book review: How Israeli school textbooks teach kids to hate
Asa Winstanley London The Electronic Intifada 11 August 2012
120811-palestine-israeli-school-books.jpg
At the height of Israel’s brutal 2008-09 assault on the Gaza Strip, then-foreign minister Tzipi Livni claimed that “Palestinians teach their children to hate us and we teach love thy neighbor” (232).
The first part of this myth is propagated by people like US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, and more recently Newt Gingrich, who both spread the baseless claim that Palestinian schoolbooks teach anti-Semitism. This calumny originated with anti-Palestinian propagandandists such as Israeli settler Itamar Marcus and his “Palestinian Media Watch.”
In an important new book, Palestine in Israeli School Books, Israeli language and education professor Nurit Peled-Elhanan buries the second part of Livni’s myth once and for all.
Peled-Elhanan examines 17 Israeli school textbooks on history, geography and civic studies. Her conclusions are an indictment of the Israeli system of indoctrination and its cultivation of anti-Arab racism from an early age: “The books studied here harness the past to the benefit of the … Israeli policy of expansion, whether they were published during leftist or right-wing [education] ministries” (224).
She goes into great detail, examining and exposing the sometimes complex and subtle ways this is achieved. Her expertise in semiotics (the study of signs and symbols) comes to the fore.
Inculcation of anti-Palestinian ideology in the minds of Israel’s youth is achieved in the books through the use of exclusion and absence: “none of the textbooks studied here includes, whether verbally or visually, any positive cultural or social aspect of Palestinian life-world: neither literature nor poetry, neither history nor agriculture, neither art nor architecture, neither customs nor traditions are ever mentioned” (49).
Palestinians marginalized, demonized by Israeli textbooks
On the occasions Palestinians (including Palestinian citizens of Israel) are mentioned, it is in an overwhelmingly negative, Orientalist and demeaning light: “all [the books] represent [Palestinians] in racist icons or demeaning classificatory images such as terrorists, refugees and primitive farmers — the three ‘problems’ they constitute for Israel” (49).
“For example in MTII [Modern Times II, a 1999 history text book] there are only two photographs of Palestinians, one of face-covered Palestinian children throwing stones ‘at our forces’ … [t]he other photograph is of ‘refugees’ … placed in a nameless street” (72).
This what Peled-Elhanan terms “strategies of negative representation.” She explains that “Palestinians are often referred to as ‘the Palestinian problem.’” While this expression is even used by writers considered “progressive,” the term “was salient in the ultra-right-wing ideology and propaganda of Meir Kahane,” the late Israeli politician and rabbi who openly called for the Palestinians to be expelled. Peled-Elhanan finds this disturbing, coming as it does “only 60 years after the Jews were called ‘The Jewish Problem’ ” (65).
She reprints examples of the crude Orientalist cartoon representations of Arabs, “imported into Israeli school book [sic] from European illustrations of books such as The Arabian Nights” (74). Arab men stand, dressed in Oriental garb, often riding camels. The cartoons of Arab women show them seated submissively, dressed in traditional outfits. Meanwhile, two Israelis on the same page are “depicted as a ‘normal’ — though caricaturistic — Western couple, unmarked by any ‘Jewish’ or ‘other’ object-signs” (110-11). The message is clear: Arabs do not belong here with “us.”
Justifications for massacre
Peled-Elhanan concludes: “The books studied here present Israeli-Jewish culture as superior to the Arab-Palestinian one, Israeli-Jewish concepts of progress as superior to Palestinian-Arab way of life and Israeli-Jewish behavior as aligning with universal values” (230).
While Israeli war crimes are not entirely ignored, the textbooks do their best to downplay or justify massacres and ethnic cleansing. “[T]he Israeli version of events are stated as objective facts, while the Palestinian-Arab versions are stated as possibility, realized in openings such as ‘According to the Arab version’ … [or] ‘Dier [sic.] Yassin became a myth in the Palestinian narrative … a horrifying negative image of the Jewish conqueror in the eyes of Israel’s Arabs’ ” (50-1).
Deir Yassin was a Palestinian village where, in 1948, a notorious massacre of around 100 persons by terrorists from the Zionist militias Irgun, Lehi and Hagana took place. Yet note in the example above that is is only the negative image of Israel that is “horrifying.” The massacre of unarmed men, women and children is otherwise not a cause for concern.
Israeli education going backwards
With reference to previous studies of Israeli school textbooks, Peled-Elhanan finds that, despite some signs of improvement in the 1990s, the more recent books she examined have if anything got worse. The issue of the Nakba, the forced expulsion of Palestinians from their homeland in 1948, is for the most part not ignored, but instead justified.
For example, in all the books mentioning Deir Yassin, the massacre is justified because: “the slaughter of friendly Palestinians brought about the flight of other Palestinians which enabled the establishment of a coherent Jewish state” — a result so self-evidently good it doesn’t need explaining (178).
Contrary to the hope of previous studies “for ‘the appearance of a new narrative in [Israeli] history textbooks’ … some of the most recent school books (2003-09) regress to the ‘first generation’ [1950s] accounts — when archival information was less accessible — and are, like them ‘replete with bias, prejudice, errors, [and] misrepresentations’ ” (228).
There is some sloppy editing here, and the academic jargon at times slips into the realm of mystifying. But those quibbles aside, Peled-Elhanan’s book is the definitive account of just how Israeli schoolchildren are brainwashed by the state and society into hatred and contempt of Palestinians and Arabs, immediately before the time they are due to enter the army as young conscripts.
Asa Winstanley is a journalist from London who has lived and worked in occupied Palestine. His website is: www.winstanleys.org.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)have witnessed.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Why only websites like MEMRI, CAMERA and the settler behind PalWatch carry them?
Why is there not a credible human rights group anywhere in the world to
support the claims in the videos you post?
What's the reason?
You should be aware, human rights groups do report/publish abuses on both sides..where
is the condemnation from PalWatch regarding Israeli policy?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)BTW the youtube channel of the vid, he only has 10 subscribers though maybe she's trying to help him?
http://www.youtube.com/user/CaptainBarakRaz?feature=watch
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)The human rights groups have a rap sheet on both sides, not PalWatch, nor the other two, MEMRI
and CAMERA.
How come Haaretz does not have this video linked with a story nor B'Tselem?
Why only websites like MEMRI, CAMERA and the settler behind PalWatch carry them?
Why is there not a credible human rights group anywhere in the world to
support the claims in the videos you post?
What's the reason?
You should be aware, human rights groups do report/publish abuses on both sides..where
is the condemnation from PalWatch regarding Israeli policy?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)where these kids were going nor does it say, it did appear to be morning though and several were wearing backpacks 
shira
(30,109 posts)The kids were not simply on their way to school, implying that the IDF was acting maliciously (which is the point of demonization/dehumanization).
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)were wearing backpacks IDF arrested them and some underage for legal responsibility, even for Palestinian kids under Israeli military laww which has 2 different standards one for Palestinian kids and one for Israeli settler kids
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)almost seems more to be drumming up viewers for some IDF Col who has started his own youtube channel
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)27 Palestinian children never made it to school this week; IDF troops lay in ambush for them on the streets of Hebron.
By Gideon Levy and Alex Levac | Mar.29, 2013 | 9:59 AM
We couldn't help ourselves: The sight of the young, newly released detainee drove us into a paroxysm of laughter. But the laughter quickly morphed into sad embarrassment. The detainee was a boy of 8, in second grade. When we met him this week, on the streets of Hebron, he was on his way to his grandfather's home. He wore a red sweatshirt emblazoned with an image of Mickey Mouse, and he had a shy smile. His mom had sent him to take something to Grandpa. Eight-year-old Ahmed Abu Rimaileh was not the youngest of the children, schoolbags on their backs, that Israel Defense Forces soldiers took into custody early on Wednesday, last week: His friend, Abdel Rahim, who was arrested with him, is only 7, and in first grade.
Twenty-seven Palestinian children never made it to school on that particular day. IDF troops lay in ambush for them from the early morning hours on the streets of the Hebron neighborhoods that are under the army's control, and arrested them indiscriminately. Only after they were in custody did the Israeli security forces examine the video footage they had in their possession, to see which of the youngsters had thrown stones at Checkpoint No. 160 earlier that morning, which separates their neighborhood from the settlers' quarter of the city. It was here, a few weeks ago, that IDF soldiers shot and killed a teenager, Mohammed Suleima, who was holding a pistol-shaped lighter.
Most of the young children were released within a few hours. The older ones were kept in detention for a few days, before being released on bail. One adult, who tried forcefully to prevent the arrest of a colleague's son, was brought to trial this week.
The fact that 18 of the children were under the age of 12, the age of criminal responsibility according to the 1971 Israeli Youth Law (Adjudication, Punishment and Methods of Treatment ), was apparently of no interest to the IDF, the Israel Police or the Border Police. Nor was the severe report issued just two weeks earlier by the United Nations Children's Fund, which condemned Israel for arresting some 7,000 Palestinian children in the past decade.
"Ill-treatment of Palestinian children in the Israeli military detention system appears to be widespread, systematic and institutionalized," the UNICEF report stated, and added, "In no other country are children systematically tried by juvenile military courts."
The Youth Law forbids the arrest of children under the age of 12. It also appears that the provision stipulating that older children must not be interrogated without the presence of their parents and their lawyer does not apply to Palestinian children.
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/twilight-zone/aged-eight-wearing-a-mickey-mouse-sweatshirt-and-placed-in-israeli-custody.premium-1.512461#