The NFL vs Sudanese refugees in Israel

[pelsar]

Last edited Sun Jan 29, 2012, 08:40 AM - Edit history (1)

The message was from my daughter, serving in the IDF along the border with Egypt. It read: “I just caught 38 Sudanese coming across the border, 25 men, 11 women and two babies. It was horrible.”

http://israelity.com/2012/01/16/the-nfl-vs-sudanese-refugees-in-israel/
(the title is that of the article).
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what makes this post relevant, first its almost an everyday event on the egyptian/israeli border, sometimes the egyptians get to them first and shoot them, or just beat them up, usually not.

but we all know what is going to happen one day. Since the IDF soldiers on that border treat the sudanese as refugees and non threatening, once over the border, there are no strip searches, pulling up your shirt to show no bomb, medics approach them to check them out etc.

and one day, the hamasnikim who are also watching, will sneak in one of their own during the night and when the IDF patrol approaches and is close enough, he will set off the bomb killing and maiming the sudanees and the soldiers.

this will not be a surprise, how alert are the soldiers for such an event? limited, since the standing orders are to approach them as refugees, non threatening (which is what they have been....)

except if that was your kids, father down there, would you be satisfied with such orders knowing full well that it maybe your son or daughter that will be coming back home in box or without a few limbs one day....just so the sudaness refugees don't have to searched?

[shaayecanaan]

1. Its an everyday occurrence on most borders...

something like 18 000 Sudanese refugees have been granted asylum in Australia. Of course, Australia is a lot further away from the Sudan than Israel, and Australia's refugee policy has often been described as harsh, but still the refugees must view Australia as a much more magnanimous destination than Israel, or they would not bother going the extra distance.

In any event, I think that a reasonably dim-witted conscript could tell the difference between a Sudanese person and a Gazan, even at a distance, and even at night time.

And in fairness to Egypt, it has, unlike Israel, at least allowed tens of thousands of Sudanese refugees to reside in Egypt indefinitely, and is currently making preparations to allow Sudanese to travel to Egypt visa-free.

[pelsar]

2. thats your comparison?....and that is to be taken seriously?

In any event, I think that a reasonably dim-witted conscript could tell the difference between a Sudanese person and a Gazan, even at a distance, and even at night time.

hmm...those "dim witted conscripts" as you call them, to begin with some of them are at the top of their high school class in terms of academic achievement, and months of experience on the border, the reservists who serve down there many have multiple degrees from top universities and a few years of experience. I suspect in terms of logic, many could turn your logic into a pretzel... (actually attempting to compare the Australian borders to the israeli/egyptian/gazan borders....any hamasnkim trying to kill Australians or egyptians lately?)

second, though the sudanese are rather thinner than the better fed gazans slipping in a hamasnikim amongst them at night, is not too difficult given that not all of the soldiers on the patrol have night vision equipment and shadows play hell with discerning movements, not to mention that the one with the bomb simply has to stay close to a sudanese, offer to hold the baby to help out the mother, and other such basic tricks.

clearly someone here doesn't have much experience or knowledge in such aspects....the question remains, why shouldn't they be searched? will it scar them for life?

[pelsar]

3. i tend to like these kind of posts.....

as they expose how ones point of view/opinion/ideology/ is based or even created not on real information but on false information....its also exposes ones credibility

This is just one example of how the IDF is put in an impossible position. The writing in this case proposes that even the "dumbest" israeli soldier has capabilities far beyond that of any other soldier in any other army on the face of the earth.

but its a set up, since its not true, and the "bar" for the IDF has been raised to an impossible level, it means the IDF and its soldiers can be constantly critizised for their "failures" in judgement and imperfection in carrying out their duties, since they are assumed to have superhuman abilities...and this is just a very simple and obvious case.
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what also makes it interesting, is the writer clearly has no knowledge of either the equipment, nor the environment, but that doesn't get in the way of "dissing" the abilities of the soldiers..meaning when it comes to demonizing or dissing the people in the IDF, facts are not relevant, again this is just a simple and obvious example.

I guess the question that has to be asked...is why?

why would someone write up something that clearly they know nothing about (or very little), while at the sometime criticizing a group, of which apparently they also know little about. (based on their original post).

[shaayecanaan]

4. why do you ask?

This is the second reply to my post. Clearly you are interested in my response.

I have no strong opinion on the issue of whether Sudanese refugees should be searched. I doubt that the Sudanese refugees care much either, given that they have likely been through far greater travails. And given that Israel's policy is to frog march them right back over the border to Egypt within 24 hours, I think being searched is the least of the refugees' worries.

What interests me is that you think that (a) Israel labours under this terrible burden because of the expectations of the international community, which is complete bullshit, frankly I had not even heard of the fact that Sudanese refugees were not searched on the spot and (b) - that the object of sympathy in this situation should not be the Sudanese refugees but the soldiers who have to deal with them.

Of course, I personally doubt that Hamas could be bothered intercepting a group of refugees on the border (something that might take days or weeks, and would involve them hanging around on the border with their dicks out), then infiltrating them (something that the refugees might take exception to) and then concealing whatever weapon they might have until they get close enough to take out an Israeli soldier, and then perhaps living long enough to kill one or two. I suppose there might be some slight theoretical risk of them doing all the above, but I think the chances of being killed by a honeybee would be far greater.

[pelsar]

5. i ask because i find the ignorance fascinating.....

Last edited Tue Jan 31, 2012, 08:23 PM - Edit history (1)

different opinions and interpretations of political actions is a given and is endless. However when those opinions start making there way in to areas where facts do exist, it deserves to questioned.

its not a matter of what "interests you", write about that as much as you like, but i believe that no matter what the belief is, one should attempt to keep as close as possible to the actual facts and environment when ever possible. And when it happens that ones exaggeration got the better of ones argument such an acknowledgement would be in order.

now i guess i have to take apart your latest assertions and once again we see how your posts lack credibility:
frankly I had not even heard of the fact that Sudanese refugees were not searched on the spot and (b) - that the object of sympathy in this situation should not be the Sudanese refugees but the soldiers who have to deal with them.

you probably haven't heard about it, because its not in the news, as i assume the other Rules of Engagement that the IDF has, hence given that you don't know, asking is always an option.

the post had nothing to with sympathy, it was about the rules of engagement and that fact that too many times the IDF endangers its own needlessly.

Of course, I personally doubt that Hamas could be bothered intercepting a group of refugees on the border (something that might take days or weeks,

LOL...sometimes its better not to write too much, its not so much your ignorance of the sinai, the bedouin, and hamas, that is a given, its your assumption that you actually know something of the events, the people, and geography that is fascinating (it would take a few hours max to intercept and the Sudanese would have little to say).
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as per your first post, we've already established that you know nothing about night vision goggles and the environment, i guess we can add to that list the bedouin/sudanees smuggling routes and the hamas presence along the egyptian border.

i think you should keep on writing....this is much simpler then arguing politics, and more fun.

just an additional note why it interest me:
since we've clearly established that your write about things that you don't know a whole lot about, I'm assuming this type of writing also applies to your other posts as well, credibility is not your strong point here.

[shira]

6. The point is, facts don't matter. Demonizing is the motivation...

Besides, your opponent won't even admit he has no idea what he's talking about. He'll just make up more BS (trying to wear you out) in order to continue the demonization. Actually, that's not all. His friends will buy into his arguments and ignore you.

[shaayecanaan]

7. And then you'll sit at home and cry for all the injustice of it (nt)

[shira]

8. Just calling it for what it is. Very common for Team Palestinian.

Last edited Tue Jan 31, 2012, 08:58 PM - Edit history (1)

So many examples of it.

So why do you do it? Your answer to my post shows you realize what you're doing.

[shaayecanaan]

9. you are right, clearly this is a piece of cake

Obviously, all that Hamas need to do is impersonate a Bedouin guide (in Egypt presumably), infiltrate a group of refugees, manage to not get shot by the Egyptians, manage to keep their weapon from being seen, and manage not to get shot by the Israelis before squeezing off a shot, given that they have the clear advantage in firepower and tech.

Or perhaps it might be easier to simply catch a plane to Goa and stab an Israeli backpacker as he lays stoned on the beach. You avoid a lot of problems that way. He's not armed and he's not alert either. A stupid idea in other respects, perhaps, but not quite as stupid as yours.

Either way, I don't know that searching the refugees would make a lot of difference, given that close enough to search is well and truly close enough to shoot.

[pelsar]

10. your really really should stop....of course on the other hand, i do enjoy this...

Hamas can't impersonate the bedouins, for one reason they 're very different with the bedouin being much of the same tribe with a specific accents, body color etc that you won't find amongst the gazans, the bedouins would not take that very well.....i guess we can attribute your assumptions to ignorance (1).

the guides don't take the Sudanese up to the border, they have no reason to (2), the egyptians, with their sparse border patrol (3) for that matter pretty much ignore the hamasnkim on the egyptian/israeli border, of which they observe the IDF movements (4). (hence the last attack crossing the border was successful).

Hamasnkim don't need a gun, just a suicide belt (5). Once they cross the border and eventually get caught by the IDF, as is their intention, to start the "illegal immigration process", the hamasnikim can then blow up his belt killing or maiming the IDF patrol. (6).

if the IDF patrol once they spotted them inside the border, stopped them, made them remove their jackets, etc as they do suspected Palestenians, that would be enough to insure there were no bombs (7).

not bad, 7 wrong assumptions based on ignorence in one post.....but keep going, it probably proving quite interesting to many here.

[shaayecanaan]

11. Well, you're the expert...

and to be able to infallibly distinguish between Bedouin and non-Bedouin Arabs is an impressive skill for a native of New Jersey such as yourself. If we ever meet in the flesh I must remember to ask you to do your best impression of a Bedouin accent.

Incidentally, I am quite a bit more coloured than my siblings - probably a shade darker than both of my parents. I tend to be called the black sheep of the family (haha, geddit?). Now with your revelations in hand I am beginning to suspect I am in fact the Bedouin of the family. Probably I was left abandoned as a baby by a travelling caravan of desert gypsies, although admittedly there are not many of those in Lebanon.

Regardless, I think you should copy and paste this post and email it immediately to IDF headquarters, as I think that they will be amazed by your prescient analysis, and the heretofore unseen and existential threat to the State of Israel that is posed by these refugees.

Let us know how you go. Meanwhile I am off to buy a dishdasha and a herd of sheep.

[pelsar]

12. you really really don't have a clue do you?

its not a matter of whether or not i can distinguish its between the Bedouin of the Sinai/negev and the Palestinians, its whether they can or not. The IDF also has Bedouin and Israeli muslims and druze within its ranks and all are very very different in culture, accents etc. Its one of those obvious things that anybody who has even the most basic experience with them learns quickly.

As per your posts, clearly they are written from an ideological/faith point of view. As it by now should be clear, not only do you have little knowledge of the area and events, your attempts to show that you do, was/is becoming more and more obvious and amusing. but clearly your not really interested in the actual environment, but that is not a surprise.

can we assume this same knowledge bank of yours is what you use for all your other posts?
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actually i think its irrelevant to you the actual facts or reality on the border, the interest as far as i understand is simply using the posts as just another route to show how wrong israel is, or show it in a negative light. However, there are those readers who actually want to base their opinions not on ideology but on reality, and for them, what you write is great, the viewpoint that you express is so devoid of reality and your attitude that your not interested in the reality is very clear.

and i like getting that out in the open.....

[pelsar]

14. i guess i can't reply to your post....that was decided by the jury to hide...

Last edited Fri Feb 3, 2012, 05:28 AM - Edit history (9)

too bad, i already "got in trouble" of going around the "jurys" decision once here. And i really don't like the idea of peer decisions on censorship, but being a community member here in this cyber place....

so final comment

and it just getting really interesting as you put forth a bit of personal knowledge and anger (which i find helps in getting out better, more believable information.....nor were you giving up, which i also like....you were still wrong, as history has proven, but i can't go there, since you can't comment.

i'm sure we'll get another chance, but it only works for me, when were discussing something that i know about from years of personal experience, otherwise, its just opinions based on limited or wrong information/ assumptions (as your posts have been from the very start).

but at least we have established firmly that you post opinions based on wrong assumptions not based on the actual facts of the environment....and you keep on insisting that your actually right, even when faced with the reality (even such a basic one as what one can see with night vision goggles). Furthermore and most interesting, is that we have seen that you have no interest whatsoever in actually learning more about what your writing about (assuming that one believes that i know what i am writing about....)

the conclusion?...arguing with a believer is always the same, doesn't matter what clothes you wear or what the belief is, the believer can never move from their position, no matter how absurd their arguments are, and they never even "see it."