Does helping Palestinians beautify the occupation?

[Jefferson23]

The women of MachsomWatch have helped some 5,000 people through the process of appealing their travel ban to Israel.

By Amira Hass

There is a thorn in the side of the Israeli prohibitions industry, in the guise of several stubborn and persistent women of retirement age. In a word: nudniks. They are the MachsomWatch volunteers, who during the past seven years have been offering their persistence in order to appeal the travel ban that the Shin Bet security service imposes on Palestinians who seek work in Israel."

The MachsomWatch organization of female volunteers, which began over a decade ago with the monitoring of physical and administrative checkpoints on the West Bank, has developed various areas of expertise: travel bans for security reasons, the military courts, police fines, permits for reasons of health, restrictions in the Jordan Valley and more.

During their shifts at the checkpoints the women have come to know the Palestinian workers and tradesman who depend on Israel for their livelihood, and who one murky day discover that their exit permit has been revoked and a "security prevention" imposed on them. After becoming acquainted and having conversations with hundreds of people, and later with thousands, the women reject the automatic interpretation that the average Israeli attributes to the pair of words "security prevention": "The Shin Bet knows what it's doing. If the permit was revoked, that means that the man is dangerous."

They began waiting for hours with the workers and tradesman who went to appeal the "security prevention" in the offices of the Coordination and Liaison Administration, and afterwards they helped to fill out forms and submit requests to overturn the prevention. They called everyone possible in the Civil Administration to find out why someone waits for hours and never gets to the window of a clerk, why he is not given a receipt for submitting the request, why a reply to a previous request doesn't arrive, and why there are no forms in Arabic. They wrote letters to the officer of the employment department in the Civil Administration, to the Military Advocate General in Judea and Samaria, to the head of the Shin Bet and to the head of the Civil Administration.

in full: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/does-helping-palestinians-beautify-the-occupation-1.409946

[shira]

1. Machsom Watch Radicals and Fogel Family Killers

Even the murders of Jewish children in their beds in the community of Itamar weren't enough to deter extreme Israeli left-wingers from offering expressions of solidarity with families of the suspected perpetrators. Members of Machsom Watch visited the Palestinian town of Awarta to comfort those whose relatives were under arrest. Spokeswoman Raya Yaron is seen above in what may come to be an iconic image of the far-left alliance with Palestinians against Israel. Israeli media and blogs have taken up the subject. Blogger Yaacov Lozowick observes he'd previously been tolerant of far-left activities but has drawn a line. He writes:

For years I've believed - and have said in print - that for all my disagreements with far-left Israelis, they were a legitimate voice and deserved respect for criticizing from inside the war zone: if proven wrong, they'd be here to pay the price; when Palestinian or Hisballah murderers do their best to kill random Israeli Jews, the far-left Israelis are here along with all the rest of us. This creates a qualitative distinction between them and their foreign fellows in malice.

I'm no longer convinced. As I've long been documenting in this blog, the contribution Israel's radicals make to the Big Lie against Israel is immense; sometimes the entire anti-Israeli argumentation comes from them. Absent them and the hatred of the Jewish State wouldn't go away, but its purveyors could present far fewer arguments.

This week we've had a further example which to my mind crosses all the lines of simple human decency. The Hebrew part of the Internet has been all a-buzz about the story of the Israeli radicals who went to the West Bank town of Awarta to give succor to the families of the murderers of the Fogel family, while disseminating unforgivable slander against the IDF and the law enforcement agencies.

http://blog.camera.org/archives/2011/04/machsom_watch_radicals_and_fog.html

==============

Maybe it's just me, but I can't imagine Machsom Watch going into a radical Arab hating Kahanist neighborhood in order to console the family of 2 murderers who butchered a Palestinian family, nearly decapitating a months old baby. I'd imagine our Leftist friends would be utterly repulsed at anyone who did that.

[Jefferson23]

2. Oh goodie, more eye opening posts from you. n/t

[shira]

4. Would it be eye opening to you if Machsom Watch....

...were to comfort and aid a radical settler family whose 2 boys had just butchered a Palestinian family, nearly decapitating a 3 month old baby girl? Especially if the family is proud of their boys who commited that crime, like the family of the Palestinian boys who butchered the Fogels...

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=6245

I don't expect a straight answer to that one. I expect more mocking, more diversion and the sound of crickets WRT the actual question.

[Jefferson23]

5. Because I think it is mockable, that's why..and not worthy of more.

Itamar Marcus

Itamar Marcus is the founder and Director of Palestinian Media Watch.[1] Marcus is a resident of the West Bank settlement of Efrat.[2] He is a former employee of David Bar-Illan, Benjamin Netanyahu's PR chief.[3] Marcus was appointed to represent Israel on the Israeli/Palestinian/American Trilateral Anti-Incitement Committee.[4]

As Director of Research for the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace from 1998 to 2000, Marcus wrote reports on Palestinian Authority (PA), Syrian and Jordanian schoolbooks.[5]

Marcus spoke at a panel session on Islamic radicalism at the International Institute for Counter-Terrorism's sixth international conference in September 2006.[6]

Marcus spoke at Philadelphia's Union League, as a guest of the Middle East Forum on 21 November 2006.[7]

In February 2007, he released a report on the newest PA schoolbooks at a press conference in Washington together with Senator Hilary Clinton.[8]

Marcus spoke at the Facing Jihad conference which hosted Geert Wilders in Jerusalem in December 2008.[9]

Marcus is one of the interviewees in the anti-Islam film Obsession.[10]


Palestinian textbook controversy

Ha'aretz journalist Akiva Eldar suggested in January 2001 that Marcus's criticisms of Palestinan textbooks under-estimated attempts to modernise the curriculum.

Marcus's center routinely feeds the media with excerpts from "Palestinian" textbooks that call for Israel's annihilation. He doesn't bother to point out that the texts quoted in fact come from Egypt and Jordan.

In an executive summary he published for Thursday's seminar, Marcus makes a report of the 14 new textbooks published by the PA's "Center for Developing the Palestinian Curricula," replacing the old books. Marcus concedes there were "a few changes," like the fact that "The open calls for Israel's destruction found in the previous books are no longer present" and that "references defining Jews and Israelis as 'treacherous' or 'the evil enemy,' common in the previous books, are likewise not present." But this, to Marcus, is not enough. He complains that the new books "continue to teach non-recognition of Israel," and that the maps portray greater Palestine, with no boundaries separating the territories and Israel (just like the official textbooks and maps used by most Israeli institutions).[11]

In November 2001 paper, political scientist Natan Brown criticised the methodology of Marcus's work with the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace:

When the PNA issued a new series of books for grades one and six in 2000, the Center rushed out its second report that passed over significant changes quite quickly before presenting its allegations of “delegitimization of Israel’s existence,” implicit “seeking of Israel’s destruction,” “defamation of Israel,” and “encouraging militarism and violence.” However, in contrast to the alarm and alacrity with which it studied Palestinian textbooks, the Center’s work on Israeli textbooks showed a far more generous spirit and proceeded at a far more leisurely pace, taking years rather than months. The report on Israeli books followed a very different method: rather than quoting example after example of offending passages with little historical context or explanation (a method that would have produced a very damning report indeed), the report on Israeli textbooks is nuanced and far more careful. Incendiary quotations are explained, analyzed and contextualized in the report on Israeli books; they are listed with only brief and sensationalist explanations in the reports on Palestinian books. In short, the Center is fair, balanced, and understanding for Israeli textbooks but tendentious on Palestinian books.[12]

http://www.powerbase.info/index.php/Itamar_Marcus

On edit to add: Efrat, where Marcus resides.

snip* Status under international law

Like all Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories, Efrat is considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this. Most of the international community considers Israeli settlements to violate the Fourth Geneva Convention's prohibition on the transfer of an occupying power's civilian population into occupied territory.[6] Israel disputes that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the Palestinian territories as they had not been legally held by a sovereign prior to Israel taking control of them.[3] This view has been rejected by the International Court of Justice and the International Committee of the Red Cross.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efrat

[shira]

6. Oh yes, shoot the messenger. Here's the problem...

This little episode WRT Machsom Watch and the mother of one of the Fogel family murderers was all over Israeli TV. It isn't just PMW. Ask Pelsar if you don't believe me. Better, here's a YNET story showing it's not just PMW...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4059790,00.html

Now what other excuses will you use? Pelsar and YNET can't be trusted?



ON EDIT:

Here's another Israeli talking about the buzz throughout hebrew internet...
http://cifwatch.com/2011/04/22/radical-israelis-prefer-murderers/

Even better, here's a blog entry (google translated from hebrew to english) by Machsom Watch. They're very proud of their work with the mother of the Fogel family murderers. Click at the top for original blog entry in hebrew...
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=iw&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2F2nd-ops.com%2Fhagit%2F%3Fp%3D88

Oh shit! You're out of excuses.



What now?



Is Machsom Watch still your kind of Human Rights organization? This does nothing WRT their credibility, right?

[Jefferson23]

7. For crying out loud, it seems you never read what you post.

This hug is some big fucking deal to you...odd, it is explained in your own OP.
You're unaware of the degree this undercuts the bullshit in your previous OP from Marcus. (Palwatch)

*Seemingly, it’s too easy to slam Yaron now: After all, when she hugged the woman and claimed that the army abused her for no reason, she didn’t know that the Fogel murderer indeed came from that home. (end)


The author of this OP is Hanoch Daum, at least even he recognizes this although in the most
absurd accusatory manner. It is worth noting that Daum is confused about what constitutes
an illegal settlement too...his opinion's are inaccurate, to say the least.

Op-ed: West Bank community of Migron is not an illegal outpost and must not be evacuated

Hanoch Daum
Published: 01.22.12, 18:02 / Israel Opinion

Op-ed: West Bank community of Migron is not an illegal outpost and must not be evacuated

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4178881,00.html

Daum's ignores the law:

snip* In its ruling, a panel of three justices - headed by Supreme Court President Dorit Beinisch - explained that the case of Migron was one of the most difficult and unusual ones to decide.

"This was about an outpost illegally constructed on private land, which the state too agreed should be evacuated," Beinisch wrote. "There is no dispute between the petitioners and the state that the outpost sits on private and recognized Palestinian land, and that the outpost was built without permission. Moreover, the work for establishing the outpost and expanding it was done with disregard to the orders to raze it."

The court ruled that by March 31, 2012, the state must complete the evacuation of Migron. While recognizing the difficulties involved in the evacuation of such a large outpost, the court called on the state "not to drag its feet in enforcing the law, especially when it [the state] does not dispute this obligation."

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/supreme-court-rules-migron-outpost-must-be-razed-by-march-2012-1.376631


I suspect what really burns you is that this group has helped the Palestinians, period.

[shira]

8. Pot/Kettle. I linked you to a website that has this info. on it....

http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2011/04/radical-israelis-prefer-murderers.html

Immediately after the murder trackers identified tracks of the suspected murderers from Itamar to the nearby town of Awarta. We now know that the two suspected murderers walked back home after the massacre of the Fogel family, where a number of their friends and relatives burned their clothes and hid their weapons near Ramallah. The investigators, who had reason to believe the murderers and potential accomplices were in town, but couldn’t yet have known who, how many, how well armed, and if they intended to murder again, sealed off the town and began to investigate….At one point they collected DNA samples from most of the men. Had anyone come forward and admitted their part in the massacre the investigation would have been greatly expedited, but this didn’t happen, so the investigators had to find their men in a hostile environment. They succeeded in less than a month. The week before the gag order was lifted the suspected murderers were brought to Itamar to re-enact the murder, so everyone in Itamar knew they’d been caught; soon, everyone else who cared knew, too, even if the precise identities of the murderers were not yet known.

…At this point a delegation of radical Israeli leftists visited the town: after the investigation, mind you, since, as they openly said in their subsequent reports, during the investigation itself they couldn’t get in.

Did you read it? No...

This is known not only to a few pro-Israel bloggers and PMW, but by, uh, MOST Israelis who kept up with the case. Remember, this was headline news in Israel for awhile. Ask Pelsar if you don't believe me or Lozowick. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Yaron couldn't possibly say that she honestly had no idea. Read the excerpt above. There's nothing debatable here.

You wrote:

I suspect what really burns you is that this group has helped the Palestinians, period.

Helping Palestinians can be a noble cause. Helping the family of known murderers, not so much. Again, Machsom Watch is proud of their work WRT the murderers, as you can see above (link to Machsom Watch). Of course you couldn't resist getting a dig in. Your pro-Israel opponents always have the worst kind of bigoted, racist motives. Demonizing them is an effective substitute for debate.

A blog entry by a member of Machsom Watch, describing the IDF arresting the 2 known suspects...
http://www.machsomwatch.org/news/07/04/2011/רק_שלא_נדע_–_או_מה_באמת_קורה_בעוורטא

Do a google translate.

We visited a woman in her two sons were arrested we met her, her children and daughter in law (wife of one of the boys arrested) and the story.

They woke up at midnight by a noise and repair it to see what happened saw a soldier boy looks out the window, he came from a second brother and searched the barn. The soldiers called White and told him to shut entered the house caught him and began to rumble, ordered him to sit up, etc. After removing him from the house continued to do so outside. Then ask each family to leave the house. When they let them go back and put them in the next room sat the boys handcuffed and blindfolded on the ground, soldiers sat on the couches were joking and laughing were satisfied according to the mother.

Is described the shameful behavior of the soldiers who stepped on mattresses shoes full of mud and when she asked them where his children sleep on mattresses again. During the searches it had opened a closet of new clothes and have not worn them a bottle of medicine, their question is answered that her husband's medication, the soldier opened the bottle and poured the contents on the new clothes. The new mattresses were coffin packaging is removed them opened the packages, stepped on them with muddy shoes. One of the boys are freed and the other was taken to jail when they say it Say hello to my mom did not see her for a long time. After the son was taken from the house continued to search, by the way some of the men were masked.

Revenge is not comfort, pity, pity and inhuman human rights (even though Palestinians) are not a top priority of the Israeli forces. Such behavior promotes terrorism and fighting him.

Yeah, they didn't know...

[Jefferson23]

9. Yea, they're guilty of waiting, lol.

AGAIN, read your own posts.

..even if the precise identities of the murderers were not yet known."

Yea, they're a terrible group.

[shira]

10. You're right. They are a terrible group.

As you can see at the Machsom Watch website, they chose to report that the IDF arrested the wrong people and the IDF were lying their asses off. They thought the mother's alibis were credible. This, they reported. They didn't "know" this family was behind the slaughter.

Here's the mom's BS alibis...
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=379664

Nouf Awwad told Ma'an on Sunday - the day reports of the allegations against her son were made public with the lifting of an Israeli gag-order on the case of the slain settlers - that Hakim was still recovering from a recent surgery, which prevented him from walking long distances and required him to use the toilet every hour.

"We have the medical records, he is in unstable health," she said, adding that the family is gathering the papers to present as evidence in defense of Hakim.

She said Hakim had undergone testicular surgery in November at the Rafidiya Hospital in Nablus.

"He was at home [the night of the murders] and went to bed at 9:30 [p.m.]," she said.

Hakim, who was detained in early April during the third sweep of detentions carried out by Israeli forces, has remained in detention since that time, and has had no contact with his family. Nouf said she "could not rule out" the idea that her son had been tortured and confessed under duress.

You see in the earlier post above that the same mother was proud of what her son did.

Therefore...

Why hasn't Machsom Watch followed up on this since then? Admit they were wrong. Condemn the mom and detach themselves as far away as possible from that photo? Don't worry, it'll never happen. Demonization trumps facts and sympathy for any Israelis killed. These settlers had it coming...

Why hasn't Machsom Watch ever visited the rest of the Fogel family that was in mourning? That won't happen either. It would ruin their image among their fanbase. Besides, that's just not what they do.

So what we have here is Machsom Watch taking for granted this Palestinian mother's testimony and blaming the IDF for wrongdoing. They didn't have the complete facts but went with their story regardless. They've never admitted they were wrong since then. They never chose to visit the Fogel family.

I'm sure this doesn't matter to you. You'll come up with more excuses or just LOL and dismiss this as hysteria. Heck, you haven't even shown any disgust whatsoever with all the video evidence of PLO/Hamas incitement. No comment on the mother publicly saying she's proud of her son. Nothing. I suspect that you figure condemning all that is nothing but hasbara, and you'll have none of that. Better to just not comment on it at all.

Am I wrong, and if so, how? Be specific.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. The point is, facts don't matter. Demonizing is the motivation...

Besides, your opponent won't even admit she has no idea what she's talking about. She'll just make up more BS (trying to wear you out) in order to continue the demonization. Actually, that's not all. Her friends will buy into her arguments and ignore you.

Borrowed that one from here http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=4100 after reading her saying in this thread 'Of course you couldn't resist getting a dig in. Your pro-Israel opponents always have the worst kind of bigoted, racist motives. Demonizing them is an effective substitute for debate. '

A pot, kettle, black moment if ever there was one

[shira]

12. What a load of crap...

How can you argue that I'm describing myself? Be specific.

I expect a real answer to this one, not something dismissive or some diversion. I suspect this is just another sloppy attempt to hijack the thread and divert.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. Ah so you don't constantly demonize pro-palestinian DUers?

Could have fooled me. What I'm pointing out here is very simple. You were doing the same thing you falsely accuse others of doing. Whether its lumping everyone who's a supporter of Palestinian self determination in a handy 'they all think <insert silly claim here>' or confusing disagreement between two other people as 'demonisation', it's built to crescendo levels lately. Pro palestinian duers are the same as pro Israeli duers. There's a wide variety of opinions within each group, and in the same way I would never judge other pro Israeli DUers on you and pretend they're like you, you should take the time to read what others say in this group and realize we're all not the same.

[shira]

15. How do you define demonization?

Last edited Tue Jan 31, 2012, 09:18 PM - Edit history (1)

We've covered this before here at DU. I still see it as irrational, OTT, baseless criticism. It's not the same as legitimate criticism. I believe I have enough evidence to prove what I'm claiming and that my criticism is not demonization. I have no qualms backing my allegations up. What I generally notice here is that many claims against Israel or its supporters are completely fabricated, baseless, or unsupported by clear evidence. I know we disagree on what constitutes clear evidence and baseless, fabricated claims. But I think any fair objective observer (or lurker) knows what's what and realizes the difference between demonization and legitimate criticism.

Now I don't know whether you realize it or not, but you didn't really back up either of my claims that you C$P'd from me in post #11. I'll explain it very clearly so you see what I'm talking about. When proven to be clueless and completely wrong WRT their claims, when have you seen that same pro-Israeli continuing to dig a bigger hole for him/her self rather than admit the mistake and just move on? In that thread where I responded to Pelsar, that's clearly the case. I can find more quite easily and I think you know it. It's a trend. Happens constantly. OTOH, if or when it happens on the other side, it's rare.

Also, when have you seen a pro-Israeli here demonizing an opponent rather than attempting instead to discuss something rationally and while supporting their arguments? It happened earlier in this thread when one of your like minded pro-Palestinian DU'ers did it. There are plenty more examples of that here. Happens a lot on one side as if it was a rule. On the other side it's the exception to the rule. Bottom line is, support what you're saying. I'll do the same. No hit and run accusations, okay?

Finally, rather than show how my accusation was wrong and attempt to rationally argue against the accusation, you diverted with something baseless (sloppy moral equivalency). So how am I wrong? Rather than just make an accusation, support it. Do you want to see evidence of my claims?

[Violet_Crumble]

16. Clearly not the same as you do...

We've covered this before here at DU. I still see it as irrational, OTT, baseless criticism.

So an example of what you see as demonisation would be only a few threads back where you falsely claimed that Jemima Khan and Karen Armstrong were right-wing Islamist apologists? Oh-kay, but I wouldn't have called that sort of thing demonisation. More not having any idea at all about who you were talking about, and assuming people who read yr posts would blindly believe you....

I know we disagree on what constitutes clear evidence and baseless, fabricated claims.

Clearly, because after seeing all the false claims you made about my views at DU2 (eg me supposedly being a Hamas supporter, me being an antisemite etc) that you try to pass off as 'clear evidence', what's clear is that yr confused about the difference between the two and define it in a really simplistic way as 'If I say something, it's clear evidence and facts, and if someone says something I don't like it's merely a baseless, fabricated claim'

But I think any fair objective observer (or lurker) knows what's what and realizes the difference between demonization and legitimate criticism.

Yep, which is why I suspect most would see yr constant cries of 'demonisation' appearing just about any time Israel's criticised for what they are

When proven to be clueless and completely wrong WRT their claims, when have you seen that same pro-Israeli continuing to dig a bigger hole for him/her self rather than admit the mistake and just move on?

Have you got time for me to go back into the archives at DU2 and bring back a veritable mountain of posts from you? If not, I'll point you to that very recent thread where you made the false claim about Karen Armstrong and note that after repeating it several times and being corrected, you moved on without admitting yr mistake...

Also, when have you seen a pro-Israeli here demonizing an opponent rather than attempting instead to discuss something rationally and while supporting their arguments?

Just one of many examples is right here http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=4100

I don't have to even go back to DU2 to drag back many other examples from there. There's more than enough right here in this group...

I'm not sure why you don't appear capable of being able to see that you do exactly the same thing you accuse others of, and it's done on a regular basis. You don't appear to have bothered reading what I said about yr constant insistance that all pro-Palestinian DUers think exactly the same thing, because you went straight off into another of those silly 'when one of your like minded pro-Palestinian DU'ers'. How hard is it for you to understand that not everyone's like-minded just because you don't agree with them? That's as stupid as someone insisting repeatedly that all pro-Israeli DUers think the same about every aspect of the conflict. I suspect it happens when people get mentally lazy and find it easier to paint what they see as the 'opposition' as all being the same ugly shared mind than recognising that they have differing views on different aspects of the conflict, and that there's some issues that most people agree on, regardless of whether you label them pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian. But painting a picture like you do where all pro-Israeli DUers are totally pure and innocent, and all pro-Palestinian DUers are evil genocide loving Islamist apologists is wrong. It's very clear to anyone who reads here on a regular basis that quite a few DUers participating in this group don't fall into either of yr categories of convenience, and they in fact *gasp* happen to agree with each other at times.

[shira]

18. Let's start with Karen Armstrong (edited near the end)...

Last edited Wed Feb 1, 2012, 04:56 PM - Edit history (2)

If I made a baseless, derogatory, unfair accusation against her (which you seem to think) then it's safe to assume that I'm ignorant and just throwing accusations around, or worse, I know better but I'm still demonizing her by ascribing to her views she doesn't hold. But if I have good reason to call her out as I did, and I can back it up, it's legit criticism.

Get it?

The problem I have with Armstrong is pretty much one of the same types of problems (and there are many) I have with the anti-Israel crowd. It's not the criticism/demonization of Israel. I'm not even going to write about her views on Israel or Jews from here on (even though she has ridiculous views WRT I/P and Jews that expose her for the poser she is).

One problem of hers is completely whitewashing, ignoring, or denying Islamist actions against more secular/liberal Muslims. She has no regard for women deserving of western rights under Islamist rule, or gay rights, christians, etc. Armstrong fancies herself an expert on Islam. And as a women's rights advocate. She should be held to a higher standard than the average person. But she doesn't distinguish b/w Islamists and secular/liberal Muslims. It's as if she doesn't even know the difference (and that's actually bigoted - assuming all Muslims are practically the same and wish to be oppressed under extreme rightwing, misogynist, anti-gay rule and share Islamists' ultra-rightwing, conservative views). Where has she ever advocated for liberal/secular reform minded Muslims against the ultra rightwing, conservative Islamists? Show me.

Same WRT women in Islam. Women are treated horribly under Islamist rule by western standards. She's just another in a long line of fraudulent leftwingers who advocate on behalf of extreme rightwing Islamists. She doesn't advocate for liberal/secular reform minded Muslims. Does she fear by doing so, she'll get death threats? When has she actually defended Muslims who have received death threats, or been murdered by extremists for having views that challenge the beliefs/actions of extreme, rightwing conservative Islamists? Show me. Who are her favorite reform minded, secular/liberal Muslims? She's too damned busy advocating for Islamists and not doing much of anything to defend liberal/secular reform minded Muslims.

Try to prove me wrong.

Assuming for the sake of argument you grant that all the above is true, do you think I'm wrong demonizing Armstrong, or that I'm right to criticize her due to the criticism being legitimate?

ETA

Look the following up for yourself: Does Armstrong condemn the way Islamists use women as slaves? Does she condemn Islamist rulings WRT death by hanging, stoning, decapitation, hacking off body parts, FGM? Has she ever spoken out against Islamists banning freedom of expression, speech, or dissent? Or, is she silent? If silent, why? Does she, like many of her fellow leftists, claim that merely criticizing these aspects of Islamist rule is bigoted? And if bigoted, is it still bigoted when reform minded, liberal/secular Muslims condemn it? Again, I don't see her trying to empower liberal/secular reform minded Muslims. All I've seen from her is that she's an apologist for the worst and most extreme rightwing, conservative Islamists. There's nothing leftwing, progressive, or liberal about that.

Heck, I googled "Karen Armstrong" and "Arab Spring" to see what this *expert* had to say about it. Whether she really expected wonderful democracy or warned against the MB. I'd be grateful if you can find something by her. This is BIG news for her area of expertise. If she wrote anything at all, I'm 99.9% sure she didn't warn about the danger of the MB becoming empowered.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Well, I'll upgrade it from posts that are ignorant, to hardcore demonisation!

Repeating the same tripe as you did before and claiming that yr opinion is fact is imo rather silly, and just a bit disturbing..

You falsely claimed in a recent thread that Karen Armstrong and Jemima Khan were 'RW Islamist apologists' merely because one had dared to sign a letter speaking out against anti-Muslim bigotry in the UK media, and the other (who btw is a religious scholar and knows more about religion than you or I do) because she dared to write an article saying that a display about Islam at a British museum was providing a balanced view...

So, yr 'argument' for what makes someone a 'RW Islamist apologist' is:

1. According to you she's critical of Israel when it comes to the occupation. Many people are. Does that make us all 'RW Islamist apologists? btw, the only stuff I've seen her talk about on the conflict was about how religion colours the views of many on the conflict, including the fundy Christians in the US, and extremists in Israel and Palestine.

2. How dare she say anything positive about Islam??? Clearly anyone who doesn't devote every waking moment of their life to focusing solely on the extremists which make up the minority is a 'RW Islamist apologist'!

3. You don't like someone, so that makes them a 'RW Islamist apologist'

Y'know, there's a label for folk who object when anything positive is said about any group, whether it's an ethnic or religious group, and insist that people must focus only on the negative. Do you know what that word is? You used it in yr post, which I thought was kind of amusing...

btw, here's another article on the exhibition which you so strongly objected to. Why anyone would object to this exhibition is beyond me...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/122484

btw, I worked out back in the other thread that you had no idea who Karen Armstrong was or what her field of expertise was. Having Wiki'd it, it looks like yr none the wiser, as you seem to think she's some sort of political analyst rather than a scholar of religion...

If you ever get interested in actually learning something about Muslims and Islam that doesn't come from rather questionable internet sites, Armstrong wrote a great book called 'Islam: A Short History'.

Anyway, now we've got it established that yr claim that Karen Armstrong is a 'RW Islamist apologist' out of the way as the complete nonsense it is, let's move onto Jemima Khan and why you labelled her a 'RW Islamist apologist'. I'm all ears. This should be entertaining!

[shira]

65. See #64 below. n/t

[Jefferson23]

14. lol, +1

[azurnoir]

20. what becomes apparent here is that you hold the families of the 2 men convicted

of the Fogle murders in a closed military trial a system that has an amazing 99.74% conviction rate BTW as guilty of those murders too and undeserving of comfort

[shira]

21. See, now you're casting doubt as to whether the murderers were tried fairly...

They've admitted to the crime. The mom in the picture with the Machsom Watch representative is now on the record saying she's very proud of what her son did. So hell yes, she's not deserving of comfort at all.

But the kicker is that even if Machsom Watch really didn't have any idea what was going on WRT the famous picture - which is ridiculous but let's go with their version - why haven't they, since then, distanced themselves from that episode and condemned the proud family? Attempt to answer that one directly. Worse, why haven't they once visited the grieving Fogel family? Aren't they deserving of comfort?

[azurnoir]

22. Oh yes they confessed didn't they?

after how many weeks? months? of Shin Bet interrogation

as to the mother being now on record you are referring to the radio show caller claiming to be the mother and I believe aunt of the men convicted? the one you posted it on another thread yesterday? complete with the entire script?

[shira]

23. Keep digging yourself deeper. This is fun...

Amjad Awad and Hakim Awad, two young Palestinian men from the village of Awarta, were arrested for the murders. They proudly confessed to the killings,[6] expressed no remorse, and reenacted the attack before the security officials.[7] On 5 June 2011 they were indicted on five counts of murder, stealing weapons, breaking and entering, and conspiracy to commit a crime. Both were later found guilty. According to Ynetnews, they had earlier denied any involvement in the attack.[8]

Amjad and Hakim Awad were already in custody when they were identified as the killers, and their names released to the public on April 17. They offered a detailed account of the attack, as well as a reenactment. Despite the ties of both suspects to the PFLP, Shin Bet investigators did not identify the attack as being carried out under the auspices of the PFLP, but rather as an individual act.[1] Israeli authorities said that they planned their attack well ahead of time, and showed no remorse for their actions.[15]

On 17 April, it was officially cleared for publication that Amjad and Hakim Awad had been identified as the killers. Both suspects confessed to the killings and offered a detailed account. They expressed no remorse for their actions, and performed a reenactment of the attack before security officials.[12] Amjad Awad declared that he was proud of what he did and had no regrets, even if he was sentenced to death.[38] During his interrogation, Amjad Awad was slapped across the face by a senior police investigator, who claimed that she was revolted by his "defiant" smile. She was told to apologize to Awad after he demanded it, and was later harshly reprimanded.[39]

Subsequently, Hakim's father, two uncles, and brother were arrested for hiding the murder weapons and suppressing additional evidence. Israeli security forces also arrested arrested the PFLP militant who they had approached for weapons, and raided the Ramallah home of Jad Avid, Salah Awad's contact who had hidden the two stolen assault rifles following the attack. Avid was arrested, and both of the assault rifles were found in his home.[12][40]

This page was last modified on 1 February 2012 at 20:11.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_attack


Now here's Haaretz WRT the video of the mother and aunt of the 2 murderous cousins. As we all know Haaretz never calls into question what would be anti-Palestinian, pro-Israel hasbara....
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/palestinian-tv-airs-show-praising-fogel-family-murderer-1.409858

But worse for you is the fact that all this is undisputed. No one is questioning this. Except you.



In fact, all the anti-Israel sites are trying to avoid this story as much as possible w/o comment. They won't touch any part of it. It's toxic to the cause. They tried their best when writing about IDF efforts to find the killers in Awarta, but that's about as far as they got. I mean really, don't you think the anti-Israel crowd would salivate and get all orgasmic exposing fraudulent hasbarado Zionist claims? The TV program that "allegedly" featured the mom/aunt of the 2 cousins goes to show the host sure doesn't believe the 2 cousins are innocent. She's actually PRAISING them.

Got anything else? This is fun.

[azurnoir]

24. what's bad for you is that your Ha'aretz link does not contain the video

to the fact that when you did post the video of the talk show hostess receiving the phone call on another thread you posted the entire script making actually watching the video unnecessary Hmmm could there be some reason why?

[shira]

26. So what? How do you think Haaretz knew of the mom/aunt admitting she was proud?

They got it from the video, which they don't question at all.

Again, you're probably about the only one among the hundreds of thousands worldwide (who has seen this) who believes there's some evil Zionist plot going on here. Hell, you think just about anything bad that is reported WRT Palestinians is a slick Zionist trick.

[azurnoir]

27. it was a phone call and there for not verifiable period nothing "slick" about it

and there you go again "evil Zionist plot " ploy, is that the best you've got it gets tired ya know

BTW there are 15 talk backs to the article mostly denouncing Palestinians as a whole

[shira]

29. Again, is there anyone credible (according to you) saying something's...

...fishy with that video? Search google. Who in the entire world is questioning that?

Besides you?

[azurnoir]

25. your quite right shira this is fun lets take a look at the video shall we

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=458&fld_id=458&doc_id=6253

The hostess of the show reaction is sort of a smirk and when she tries to thank the caller for her message (usually this a prelude to hanging up) she gets interupted

oh no here is questioning it because up until now the only one commenting on it is you

BTW it should be noted that the Israeli government uses PMW as a source for its antiPalestinian propaganda

[shira]

28. So you now agree the Awarta cousins are indeed guilty, right?

Not set up by meanies in the IDF? That was pretty funny.

As to the video, no one is questioning that either. Google it and look for good leftist sites trying to deconstruct that video.

And now you're impugning the source, PMW? When have they falsified a video or report? Ever?

[azurnoir]

30. lol again shira ther is no need to 'deconstruct' anything it was a phone call

what part of that does not sink in? as to PMW their claims about Palestinian textbooks have been refuted haven't they?

[shira]

31. LOL! If you can't find any of your fellow pro-Palestinians...

...saying there's something fishy about that phone call or some telling smirk by the host, then it's really only you and you alone making these desperate, zany accusations. Search google to see if there's anything worldwide that calls into question the phone call. Maybe you could recommend to your pro-Palestinian organizations, blogs, etc. to run with your story. See what happens. I'm predicting responses to you (if they respond at all) will be at least one of the following...



Just think, if anyone takes you seriously and runs with your theory what a great thing that would be! Go for it!

As to PMW, you need to realize PA books are still bad (now) after 17 years of the PA promising they'll get around to fixing those books...
http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?ID=216374&R=R1&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I don't know why you'd think PA textbooks are 'clean' now. You've seen enough videos the last few days that prove without question what the PA is up to WRT their version of educating children, and with your tax dollars to boot! I know those tax dollars mean something to you since you just brought that up WRT Israeli funding. I suspect you're not as concerned with your tax dollars when it's going to the PA to fund hatred, incitement to kill Jews, use Palestinian kids whose blood can be used as fertilizer....



Finally, let's sum up our debate. You came in spewing batshit crazy nonsense casting doubt, claiming there was some IDF conspiracy to nail 2 innocent Palestinians who turned out in fact - without question - to be guilty of murdering the Fogels. That was in response to Machsom Watch consoling the proud mother of her son and nephew. Machsom Watch has done nothing to distance themselves from that episode or condemn the mom. Even discarding the video of the proud mother's call, there's still this from April 2011 when the mom was lying her ass off trying to cover for her son and nephew:

Nouf Awwad told Ma'an on Sunday - the day reports of the allegations against her son were made public with the lifting of an Israeli gag-order on the case of the slain settlers - that Hakim was still recovering from a recent surgery, which prevented him from walking long distances and required him to use the toilet every hour.

"We have the medical records, he is in unstable health," she said, adding that the family is gathering the papers to present as evidence in defense of Hakim.

She said Hakim had undergone testicular surgery in November at the Rafidiya Hospital in Nablus.

"He was at home (the night of the murders) and went to bed at 9:30 (p.m.)," she said.

Hakim, who was detained in early April during the third sweep of detentions carried out by Israeli forces, has remained in detention since that time, and has had no contact with his family. Nouf said she "could not rule out" the idea that her son had been tortured and confessed under duress.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=379664

Still thinking Machsom Watch did a nice thing consoling the mom?

And to this day, not a peep from Machsom Watch distancing themselves from the mother. Machsom Watch still hasn't once consoled the Fogel family. Better that Machsom Watch console the mom rather than the Fogels, right?

Now you're not only trying to change the subject rather than admit you were ridiculously wrong about the convictions, you're also avoiding the role of Machsom Watch with the mother. I can't imagine any pro-Israel person here not condemning or showing absolute disgust if it was Israel and some of its Jewish civilians doing the same exact thing as the PA and some of its citizens. Can you imagine any pro-Israel person here trying to avoid talking about murderers, incitement, those videos, etc. if it were Israel and its citizens doing that?

[azurnoir]

32. now I'm trying to change the subject? what?

so unless group think is involved ?????? and yes I think Machsom Watch did a good thing comforting the Mom whom you obviously feel should be held as guilty.

what you do is use every debate to post rightwing anti Palestinian propaganda and then rage on about how much others are haters ????? but who here really is "foaming at the mouth"?

[shira]

33. Yep...

so unless group think is involved ?????? and yes I think Machsom Watch did a good thing comforting the Mom whom you obviously feel should be held as guilty.

Do you think Machsom Watch should have distanced themselves from the mom once she was found to be a liar/accomplice and now, proud mom?

What do you think about Machsom Watch not consoling the Fogel family?

what you do is use every debate to post rightwing anti Palestinian propaganda and then rage on about how much others are haters ????? but who here really is "foaming at the mouth"?

Hmmm.

So it's rightwing and hateful to show these videos and criticize Fatah for truly horrible shit, but OTOH it's leftwing/progressive/liberal to try to always explain it away, ignore, or deny what is arguably the worst kind of extreme rightwingery?

How does that work?

I'll truly drop on the floor from shock if you seriously address the above questions.

[azurnoir]

34. No shira I was not changing the subject however Machsom Watchs visit with the Awad family was prior

to the arrest wasn't it? you must think I have not been following this thread since the very first post your wrong I have been now as to your questions

What do you think about Machsom Watch not consoling the Fogel family? "

I think you need to take a look at Machsom Watches site

About us

Machsomwatch is a movement of Israeli women, peace activists from all sectors of Israeli society, who oppose the Israeli occupation and the denial of Palestinians' rights to move freely in their land. Since 2001, we have conducted daily observations of IDF checkpoints in the West Bank, along the separation fence and in the seamline zone, on the main roads and on out-of-the-way dirt roads, as well as in the offices of the Civil Administration (DCOs) and in military courts. We regularly document what we see and hear. The reports of these observations are published on the Machsomwatch site, and sent to public officials and elected representatives. Through the documentation which discloses the nature of everyday reality, we are attempting to influence public opinion in the country and in the world, and thus to bring to an end the destructive occupation, which causes damage to Israeli society as well as to Palestinian society.

http://www.machsomwatch.org/en/about-us

http://www.machsomwatch.org/en

Their mission is not about comforting settlers who yes suffered a horrible trauma

I suspect what really causes your frothing hatred of these women is that they are Israeli Jews doing this, how terrible, how disloyal, how dare they don't they know who the enemy is? am I close your own posts speak for themselves here

So it's rightwing and hateful to show these videos and criticize Fatah for truly horrible shit, but OTOH it's leftwing/progressive/liberal to try to always explain it away, ignore, or deny what is arguably the worst kind of extreme rightwingery?

again your own posts from such sources as PMW who'sis founded and headed by settler Itamar Marcus

Marcus is a featured source for the documentary Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West.

Marcus lives in the Israeli settlement of Efrat in the West Bank.[3]

This page was last modified on 12 September 2011 at 16:36

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Marcus

your use of material from such a source as well as Pajamas's Media and The Volokh Conspiracy for the purpose of demonizing Palestinians speaks for it self shira

PS somewhere I have a copy of Itamar's film "Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West" it was widely distributed in newspapers during the 2008 Presidential campaign as a smear against Obama

[shira]

38. Gosh, I gave you a chance to seriously answer a few questions and you blew it again...

If you read the excerpt above in post #8, you'd see everyone in Itamar knew the killers had been caught - even everyone in Awarta as well due to the gag order being lifted. The town was sealed and Machsom Watch couldn't enter it until all was concluded and the murderers apprehended. On after this could Machsom Watch enter the town - after they knew the murderers were apprehended. Read the following carefully. No one disputes this....

The story of the investigation was under a gag order for a month, until its successful conclusion. Still, Israel being the very small place it is, anybody who cared to know had a pretty good idea what was going on. In brief, immediately after the murder trackers identified tracks of the suspected murderers from Itamar to the nearby town of Awarta. We now know that the two suspected murderers walked back home after the massacre of the Fogel family, where a number of their friends and relatives burned their clothes and hid their weapons near Ramallah. The investigators, who had reason to believe the murderers and potential accomplices were in town, but couldn't yet have known who, how many, how well armed, and if they intended to murder again, sealed off the town and began to investigate. At a minimum, the investigators knew the murderers had the two M-16's stolen from Itamar. At one point they collected DNA samples from most of the men. Had anyone come forward and admitted their part in the massacre the investigation would have been greatly expedited, but this didn't happen, so the investigators had to find their men in a hostile environment. They succeeded in less than a month. The week before the gag order was lifted the suspected murderers were brought to Itamar to re-enact the murder, so everyone in Itamar knew they'd been caught; soon, everyone else who cared knew, too, even if the precise identities of the murderers were not yet known.

At this point a delegation of radical Israeli leftists visited the town: after the investigation, mind you, since as they openly said in their subsequent reports, during the investigation itself they couldn't get in.

There are two extraordinarily incriminating pieces of evidence for the malice of the radicals. The first is a report by Yaakov Manor, of the Alternative Information Center. It was written in Hebrew, and published on their website. It describes the violence of the Israeli forces, and attributes it to their need for revenge. It is based largely on eye-witness reports of local townspeople, the exact same people who had been obstructing the investigation for most of the month. The head of the town informs Manor that the reason the IDF spent so much time in town was to prepare the confiscation of agricultural land. Then Manor went to visit the family of Hakem Awad, one of the suspected murderers. Here's the English translation of what they found:

The horror that we saw with our own eyes in the home of Mahmoud Awad cannot be described as anything but a pogrom, primate and brutal vengeance intended solely to impose fear in the heart of the residents.

All rooms in the home were turned upside down. Most of the furniture and electronic equipment was broken. Food from the kitchen was dumped on the floor and on it a large vat of oil was poured.

The mother of the family, Shama and the children Majd, 14 years old and Alaa, 6 years old, who were not detained, related that the army’s invasion of their home began at 4am and ended around 11am. Family members were dragged out of their beds and not permitted to bring warm clothing or blankets. A soldier who saw the little girl trying to shield herself from the cold ripped the blanket away from her. Alaa relates that “they took my blanket and I was very cold and afraid, and waited outside until the soldiers left. Majd notes that “I was handcuffed, my eyes were covered and they beat me. All in all I’m a little boy, what did I do wrong?
The father of the family, Mahmoud, 45 years old, the son Majdi, aged 20, a third year university student and the son Amjad, 19 years old, a first year university student and the son Hakhem, 17 years old, were detained. Their cousin Ayman, 21 years old, was also detained. The mother claims that soldiers took 2,500 Jordanian dinars from a drawer and 5 mobile phones. The mother looked broken, in shock and in deep grief. The fear and terror had not yet left her eyes.

It gets worse. Hagit Beck, a member of Machsom Watch, describes on her blog how she and some other women went to visit "the 2 homes which had been ransacked". The second of the two was the home of Hakem Awad. (Isn't in interesting how in spite of all the horror, the reports all seem to focus on the same one or two homes?). The blog-post has been put up also on the Machsom Watch website: they're obviously proud of it. While in the house, Raya Yaron, the Machsom Watch spokeswoman, tried to comfort Shama Awad, mother of suspected murderer Hakem Awad, and wife of one of the men suspected for destroying the evidence. If proven in court, this will mean Shama Awad hid her murderer son from the police for most of a month, knowing fully what he had done. This is the woman Raya Yaron is embracing, and Hagit Beck is celebrating.

For what it's worth: The Alternative Information Center is cited on page 555 of the Goldstone Report as one of their sources. Also, some of the Hebrew websites are claiming that the two NGOs are or have been supported bythe NIF. It's plausible,but I haven't checked. Something worth looking into.

http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2011/04/radical-israelis-prefer-murderers.html

Also, I'm still waiting on this one for you to answer...

Do you think Machsom Watch should have distanced themselves from the mom once she was found to be a liar/accomplice and now, proud mom?

Lastly, you keep trying to attack sources I'm using as evidence. You call them rightwing and then leap to the absurd conclusion that obviously I'm rightwing to and support to their rightwing views. I asked you in the previous post, but you never answered. So once again, when Human Rights organizations dismiss, ignore, or deny the homicidal anti-Jew incitement you've seen for yourself in all those videos, the PA using children's blood as fertilizer, etc... doesn't that make those Human Rights organizations and their fan base supporters of what has to be just about the most extreme and vile rightwingery on this planet? If not supporters, they're happy to be enablers of these pathologically insane rightwingers, correct? See the hypocrisy yet? You're trying to use the "rightwing" card as though that allows you to ignore even the most damning of evidence. But even if my sources are rightwing (for the sake of argument) the sources you trust and are using are far and away about 100x more rightwing. Explain to me please how this works? To be clear, how supporters or enablers of the most extreme and vile rightwingery on the planet believe they can get away with accusing others of rightwingery?

[azurnoir]

41. so Pajamas Media, Volokh Conspiracy, and Itamar Marcus are liberal not rightwing well ok then

I guess we have different ideas about what is rightwing as to the rest you seem to almost gloat at IDF's treatment of the Awad family that ini itself says oh so much but please do keep going on with this I'll allow you the last word here it speaks volumes

[shira]

43. Wow, way to avoid everything in that post! As predicted of course. n/t

[azurnoir]

45. No need to avoid your post speaks for itself

Last edited Thu Feb 2, 2012, 08:19 PM - Edit history (1)

but please do continue you present 'compelling' evidence indeed

[shira]

46. "I guess we have different ideas about what is rightwing..."

Do you think it's rightwing to gloss over, whitewash, explain away, dismiss, ignore, deny, or deflect attention away from the absolute worst kind of extreme, vile rightwingery practiced by Hamas and the PLO?

Yes or No?

you seem to almost gloat at IDF's treatment of the Awad family that ini itself says oh so much

I have no clue what you're talking about. What do you know about the IDF's treatment of the Awad family? What Machsom Watch reported? They lied about "not knowing" and that's not even debatable. Also, how do you see me 'gloating' about IDF treatment of the Awad family?

[2ndAmForComputers]

51. "the PA using children's blood as fertilizer"

Did such a thing happen? Sources?

[shira]

54. Here's the video...

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=6255

In fact, look at the first two videos and you'll find Salaam Fayyad in attendance at a celebration in Ramallah singing something very similar to what's in the first video.

So what's your reaction to these videos?

[2ndAmForComputers]

67. My reaction is:

It's much less morbid than, for example, the French anthem.

"Saturate the land with my blood" sounds like "Populate the land with my descendants." Note that "outbreeding the Jews" has been pointed out as being a long-term strategy of Arab Israelis.

"Redeem you with my life" is also dubious. You'll se they didn't say "Redeem you with my death."

All in all, sounds like a run-of-the-mill patriotic song. Many national anthems have some variant of "Yes, country, I'm willing to die for you."

[shira]

68. Wow, so it's figurative. The cognitive dissonance is strong around here...

Here's the same link...
http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=6255

Go past just the 1st two videos and watch the 3rd and 4th.

[azurnoir]

71. oh yet more right wing propaganda shira?

however they are quite edited very short and well presented by a group founded and headed by a right wing settler now I know that it good enough for you, however it makes me suspect of what the motivations are other than demonizing Palestinians oh waut those are the motivations aren't they?

[shira]

74. And yet another "rightwing" deflection....

Seriously Azurnoir, I can't think of anything much more rightwing than deflecting attention away from the vile, homicidal antisemitic content in those videos.

Could you see anyone here at DU/IP attempting to ignore, deny, dismiss, and explain away vile Israeli homicidal anti-Arab racism as you're doing now WRT what the PLO and Hamas enthusiastically promotes and rewards in the territories?

Priceless.

[azurnoir]

60. yes I felt that vid deserved a prize

because PMW took a figurative expression and tried to present it as literal or ask yourself have you ever heard of Jews being referred to as Children of Israel and there's your answer

[mikepaul]

3. Israel/Palestine

Long time lurker , but it fun to watch isreales are comminting arprtay ( my spelling bad ) there open air prison any way u cut it ,but on the other theres lots of palstinse killers ( not that there aint isreal ones , as a outsider why do we care so much about thses sick ppl both of them ) they desvers neither our help or aid , we would be better off letting them sink if thats what they want to do , just a opion peace

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Maschom Watch is a really great Israeli organisation that everyone should support...

Here's a link to their website for people to learn more about them. They do really valuable work

http://www.machsomwatch.org/en

[shira]

19. Why? Here's post #10 above...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=4104

See the problem now with Machsom Watch?

I guess not.

Is #10 above wrong in some way? If so, please explain.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Why? Try reading the website to see why anyone should support the good work they do...

Go and peddle the smear jobs elsewhere. Seriously. Is there any group, Israeli or otherwise, who is out there on the ground trying to help Palestinians who you don't rush in to try to smear? I'm getting the feeling you don't like any groups trying to assist Palestinians, and that yr posts go out of their way to try to make them look bad...

[shira]

37. So a website tells all, right? If I link you to ANY website that says they do good work...

...that's good enough for you?

As to the rest of your post, I knew you wouldn't answer the substance of that last post. There's simply no defending what MW did WRT the Fogel massacre. You know this and that's why you avoided the subject and chose to attack me instead.

I asked this of Azurnoir but she didn't answer, so let's see you saying no to this one...

Do you think Machsom Watch should have distanced themselves from the mom once she was found to be a liar/accomplice and now, proud mom? Maybe update their website WRT the Fogel massacre? Because all they have on that is allegations of IDF wrongdoing searching for the killers.

[oberliner]

39. Would you say they are a positive group that did a bad thing?

Taking the incident with respect to the Fogel massacre out of the equation momentarily, do you think they are a group that generally does good work? Do you support their mission statement? Are you critical of the group because of the Fogel-related behavior or do you oppose them regardless?

[shira]

40. No, they're just another organization dedicated...

...to delegitimizing and demonizing. Past reports about collective punishment, for example.

I think it's notable to observe that the harshest pro-Palestinian critics of Israel (as if it's a rule) cannot ever admit fault with any of their favorite anti-Israel organizations. To do so is blasphemous. Take Machsom Watch for example. If that organization is odious and other groups or NGO's support such an organization, they all become questionable as well. There's absolute unity. These orgs will never contradict each other no matter how great or stupendous the lie. They're in this all the way no matter what. You'll notice after Goldstone's reversal, HRW and AI were quick to agree with him, although they never once called into question his original conclusion. Goldstone retracts and says the major conclusion of the report is wrong and we see HRW and AI trying to explain that despite Goldstone's reversal, they had it right all along. So they were right prior to Goldstone's reversal but they're still right after it. No reversal from them.



Same WRT to HRW and AI fully supporting Shawan Jabarin. Ken Roth of HRW first denied Jabarin had any links to the PFLP, then changed his story to Jabarin having no ties with the PFLP since the 1980's. Jabarin has never once turned on the PFLP or shown regret for what he once did.

These orgs can never admit to large scale lies. And that's what we have here, not minor errors that they're more than glad to correct. That does them no harm and gives their supporters something to point to (that these orgs admit to mistakes, not big lies but minor errors). Their supporters likewise cannot admit to any big lies either. If pro-Israel organizations were guilty of the same, manufacturing ginormous lies against Palestinians for example, they'd crow for years on end about it. But they're intentionally blind WRT their own.

Think of all the big lies. Mavi Marmara, Goldstone, Muhammad al-Dura, civilian casualties, etc. The list is endless. Have you ever seen anything but unity from these radicals? Have any of them ever once admitted to big time errors (lies)? No.

It's all about delegitimization and demonization. A pathological obsession with hating Israel. And of course, portraying the Palestinians - even Hamas and the PLO at their worst - always as victims of racism/colonialism, apartheid, etc. You think these organizations don't know anything about PMW videos, for example? You think they need PMW to know what's going on? Aren't they experts on what goes on in Gaza and the WB? I mean, come on.

[azurnoir]

42. well it has become obvious that someone here is dedicated to demonizing and delegitimizing

and perhaps has a pathological obsession with hating but I am not so sure it's the groups you list

[shira]

44. LOL! Still waiting for you to find fault with Machsom Watch...

...for their ordeal with the family of the Itamar murderers.

I know, it won't happen. Ever. Not even with 110% proof.

No matter how outlandish and cockamamey their claims are. I'm certain you feel that if you never criticize them, and you won't, it's as if they never did anything wrong whatsoever. Better to always shift the blame, cry "rightwinger", bigot, facts are just opinions... and somehow make it Israel's fault. When all else fails, divert by making some ridiculous comparison like "hey, you know that PMW video, well Israel does it too so you're a hypocrite!" Is there some anti-Israel book that explains what to do and say when there's just no way you can defend the indefensible?

[azurnoir]

47. exactly you want me to condem Machsom Watch

but your doing enough for several people, IMO Machsom Watch did nothing wrong and there is no blame to "shift" the only one blaming here is you shira

[shira]

48. They lied. Big time. You used their excuse that they "didn't know"...

...as the reason they went to that house and consoled the family. I suspect that's the best excuse you had for not finding any fault with what they did. But now what do you have? Anything at all other than they're still awesome!

There's no way they couldn't have known. They weren't even allowed into Awarta - no one was allowed by the IDF - until after the murderers had reenacted the gruesome events in Itamar. Everyone following the story in Israel knew the murderers had been caught prior to the IDF reopening Awarta. Even if they didn't yet know the names of the murderers. Remember, that's BIG time news in Israel.

Think about it. Awarta was sealed off for weeks while the IDF tried to find out who the killers were. The sole reason they'd reopen Awarta would be that they found the killers. Do you think Machsom Watch is so stupid that they didn't know that? Even a kindergartener would know that.

So given they knew, how can you not find any fault with them?

Oh, BTW, it's not just me blaming them, it's most Israelis who followed the story. They're rightly disgusted. I can't see how you can't be disgusted unless you just don't give a damn. Are you at least disappointed that they lied in order to cover their asses?

[azurnoir]

49. you already stated your case about Machsom Watch in comment #40

your hatred of this group is not solely due to their activities in Awarta it is their very existence and mission you hate, when another poster asked you if Machsom Watch was a good group that in your opinion did a bad thing you replied

No, they're just another organization dedicated...

..to delegitimizing and demonizing. Past reports about collective punishment, for example.

and yet shira the one on this thread whom has been busily demonizing and delegiimizing seems to be you

[shira]

50. In other words, you can't defend Machsom Watch. But we already knew that, didn't we?

You know they lied, but you can't ever admit it. And none of your "pro Palestinian" friends here can do it either. Oh well, just another in a long line of discussions in which you guys can't or won't answer the simplest, straightforward questions. Oh you guys answer all right. With distractions, strawmen, red herrings, accusations of bigotry, rightwingery, ridiculous moral relativist arguments, or silence. But never - and I mean never - do you directly answer the most straightforward, simple questions. At least you guys are consistent.

I can't understand the mindset. I'd be embarassed as hell if I was consistently proven wrong and couldn't answer so many direct questions. I think I'd have to be a compulsive liar or absolute 100% fanatical "religous" type true believer to carry on...

[azurnoir]

52. In other words I do not feel that Machsom Watch did anything that needs to be defended

that is my opinion something that I can recognize and not claim as though it were fact

[shira]

53. You were duped and bought into their lie, that they didn't know.

Now you can't even admit that was a big lie and pathetic excuse to cover their asses.

Come on...

[azurnoir]

62. No I was not duped nor was I forgetful

did you actually think that because a year had passed the events in Awarta covered closely by Ma'an news would be forgotten?

[Violet_Crumble]

55. In this case there's no reason not to believe they do good work...

I'm also very aware that there's not one single group out there trying to help the Palestinians that you don't try to smear every chance you get...

Also, don't fucking tell me what I do and don't know or think. As always, you've got no clue. Yr 'response' to Obie's question should have told everyone all they need to know about yr views on any group who tries to help Palestinians...

[shira]

56. But the Fogel case is not good work. Not at all.

You didn't answer my question, BTW, regarding whether an organization is good because they show how awesome their work is on their website. I can only assume you've realized your error. You can't justify that position rationally.

And no matter how much clear, irrefutable evidence you're given that demonstrates MW did a very bad job - you will keep maintaining they did nothing wrong (at least WRT the Fogel case).

Now, OTOH, when I make assertions, unlike you I'm able to back them up w/o going off track, making strawman or red herring arguments, ad hominem attacks, labeling my opposition as "rightwing", bigoted, etc.

If shown I'm wrong, I admit it. I have no reason to ignore, deny, or explain away clear, irrefutable evidence. I rarely, if ever, see that type of discipline WRT the so-called "pro Palestinian" contingent here.

[azurnoir]

57. OMG again but not even one of your replies has proven anything

well except the depth of your hatred for Machsom Watch as to your 'conclusions' where I am concerned as in "I can only assume you've realized your error. " no error was made and I support Machsom Watch

[shira]

58. Oh sure, nothing has been proven. Then why don't you have any rational answers....

...when asked direct and specific questions? See above posts where you've left many questions unanswered. I can only assume you can't answer them, you know you can't answer them, and that's why you leave them unanswered. If you could answer them, you would. You'd provide a rational argument in response. You'd back that argument up with real evidence or proof. You haven't done so. Therefore the conclusion is you're wrong. I'm still waiting, BTW for those answers....



As for assuming Violet has realized her error, it's obvious. I asked her if pointing towards ANY website online proves the good work of ANY organization. We all know that's silly. Well, maybe you don't. Do I need to explain that one to you? Imagine PMW showing all the good work they do. Well then obviously they're a great and awesome organization using the same irrational logic.

[azurnoir]

61. Lets take a look at the events in Awarta

Last edited Fri Feb 10, 2012, 01:28 AM - Edit history (1)

and I'll even throw you a bone yes the mother of those charged did deny he was guilty oh maybe we should charge her too the nerve a mother saying her son is innocent but thats the best you've got rest is BS especially the part about Awarta being completely closed to outsiders the whole time which is clearly demonstrated in the links BTW Machsom Watchs visit took place 4/7/11 the same day dozens of women from Awarta were detained

Army storms village, dozens detained 3/12/11

Locals told Ma’an that Israeli forces started house-to-house inspections in the village. Homes of relatives of two Palestinians, killed a few months ago near Itamar, were stormed, according to locals.

Muhannad, Ahmad, and Amjad Al-Kamil, brothers of Salah Al-Kamil who was killed near Itamar, were detained as well as Amjad, Majdi, and Mahmoud Qawariq whose brother was also killed near Itamar. Others were identified as Muhammad Qawariq, Walid Jarrah and his brother Abdullah, Muayyad and Shadi Sharab, Shadi Awwad, Ali Ghazzawi, Yasser Ghazzawi, Shadi Nassar, Fadi Nassar, and Ayman Faysal.

Israel's military besieged other areas in the northern West Bank after the apparent attack, closing checkpoints and initiating aggressive searches with police dogs and helicopters.

Military checkpoints which had been evacuated in recent months were erected again. Soldiers reoccupied the Huwwara post south of Nablus, the Taneib checkpoint to the west, and Al-Badhan in the north.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=367808


Israeli forces detain over 300 in Awarta 3/14/11

The call to appear at the school was the first time many were permitted to leave their homes in three days, and village council leader Qays Awwad said interrogations were expected.

An Israeli-imposed curfew remains in place on the village for the third day in a row, keeping Awarta residents locked indoors as a wide-scale military campaign continues. Israeli media said the military had declared the village a closed military zone.

Awwad said village council member Salim Qawariq had been taken from his home while Israeli forces inspected it, while informed Palestinian sources confirmed the detention of Lieutenant Iyad Muhammad Awwad, a Palestinian general intelligence officer.

Two activists with the International Solidarity Movement were able to enter Awarta before the curfew was imposed, and confirmed the continued closure of the town.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=368340

Masked settlers enter Awarta village 3/14/11

Awarta remains under an Israeli military curfew, and was declared a closed military zone by soldiers, who continue to conduct a wide-scale military operation. Officials say the village is being targeted as part of a search for suspects in the murder of five members of the Fogel family, residents of the illegal settlement next to the village.

Umm Ragheb Obeidat, a village resident, told Ma'an that settlers attacked homes in the eastern area of the village, saying that the settlers had come closer and closer to her home and she feared for the safety of her family.

She appealed for international protection from the settler groups, as reports come in from across the West Bank of settler violence causing harm to Palestinian property and terrifying residents.

An activist with the International Solidarity Movement said the Israeli military intervened when Awarta residents tried to push back the group of settlers.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=368642

Awarta village closed for fourth day 3/15/11

Awarta village remains under an Israeli military curfew for the fourth day in a row Tuesday, as residents report constant door-to-door searches, with some homes targeted at least three times.

Witnesses said soldiers could be seen dotting the hilltops around the village, as armored vehicles patrolled the streets.

An early morning food delivery from the municipality of Nablus appears not to have been delivered to all residents of the town, which according to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics has over 5,000 inhabitants.

Dutch journalist Lydia de Leew, traveling with medics from the Union of Health Care Committees, told Ma'an that they were waiting for permission to enter the village, after hearing reports that an Israeli sniffer dog had attacked a child.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=368928

Israeli forces withdraw from Awarta 3/16/11

NABLUS (Ma'an) -- Israeli forces withdrew Wednesday morning from the West Bank village of Awarata, following four and a half days of military curfew and home-to-home searches.

Israeli officials said troops were searching for suspects in the murder five members of a settler family from the nearby settlement of Itamar.

By the time the closure was lifted, forty men from the village had been detained, and residents reported mass damages to homes and buildings.

In the final hours of the military closure, town residents said soldiers had been searching for cameras, photos and images of destroyed houses.

Details of the investigation have remained under gag order in Israel, with officials saying only that a search was ongoing, and that "in general, is a terrorist attack," according to Israel's police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=369139

Israeli forces re-enter Awarta 3/22/11

- Israeli forces re-entered the northern West Bank village of Awarta at sunrise Tuesday, announcing via loudspeaker that the community was under curfew the for a second time this month.

The village had been under a military curfew from March 12-16 as Israeli police, military and intelligence forces searched the area for evidence relating to the murder of five settlers in the adjacent illegal settlement Itamar.

An as yet unknown attacker or attackers stabbed five members of the Fogel family, including two children and a baby. Israeli leaders immediately blamed Palestinian militant groups, and put a total gag order on the investigation for the Israeli press.

A military spokeswoman confirmed that there was a curfew in place, but said she could not disclose how long it would remain on the village. She said the search was in relation on the ongoing investigation into the Itamar murders, and that troops were trying not to disrupt normal life in the village.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=371021


Awarta residents DNA tested in Itamar case 3/29/11

While a third curfew was not imposed overnight, Israeli troops forcibly entered homes, detaining an unknown number of residents estimated to be in the dozens. Forty had already been detained during earlier arrest raids, including a Voice of Palestine radio journalist.

An Israeli army spokeswoman confirmed military activity in the village overnight, but said she could not comment on whether or not villagers had been arrested, or the nature of their arrests. Israel placed details of the investigation under a gag order, and while political leaders pointed the finger at Palestinian militants, no suspect has been publicly identified.

Awarta Mayor Qays Awwad told Ma'an on Tuesday morning that the men and boys who had been detained during the first round of arrests in the village were taken to the Israeli military base at Huwwara, where they were subjected to DNA testing and fingerprinted.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=373340


Dozens of women arrested in Awarta village 4/7/11

Israeli troops stormed a Palestinian village early Thursday, arresting more than 100 women in what local officials said was part of the ongoing investigation into the murder of five settlers in March.

Hundreds of troops entered Awarta -- the village adjacent to Itamar, an illegal settlement where the murders took place -- shortly after midnight and imposed a curfew after which they began rounding up the women, local council head Tayis Awwad said.

Officials told Ma'an that men and women were taken in the raids, which involved house-to-house searches in the early morning. Some of the women, witnesses said, were in their 60s, and many were taken by force.

So far no one has been charged, with the military refusing to comment on the operation.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=376303


Israel withdraws from Awarta after day-long operation 4/12/11

Israeli forces withdrew from Awarta village on Tuesday, leaving some of the houses damaged.

The village's mayor Qais Awwad said soldiers damaged four houses after searching the belongings of Hassan Awwad, Salah Awwad, Salim Awwad, and Najeh Muhammad Hassan Awwad.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=378106

2 Palestinians arrested in settler murder 4/17/11

Israel has arrested two main Palestinian suspects in connection with the murder of a young settler family in the West Bank, Israeli security officials said Sunday.

The announcement was the first public information about the results of an investigation that spanned more than a month since the March 11 slaying of the Fogel family in the settlement of Itamar.

In a briefing document obtained by AFP, Israel's internal security agency Shin Bet said it had arrested two main suspects and five suspected accomplices.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=379506

Family of Awarta teen deny allegations

The family of one of two teens charged by Israeli forces in the murder of a settler family last month is contesting the allegations, saying 19-year-old Hakim Awwad was too ill to have carried out the gruesome attack.

Nouf Awwad told Ma'an on Sunday - the day reports of the allegations against her son were made public with the lifting of an Israeli gag-order on the case of the slain settlers - that Hakim was still recovering from a recent surgery, which prevented him from walking long distances and required him to use the toilet every hour.

"We have the medical records, he is in unstable health," she said, adding that the family is gathering the papers to present as evidence in defense of Hakim.

She said Hakim had undergone testicular surgery in November at the Rafidiya Hospital in Nablus.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=379664

[shira]

63. If consoling the mother was a good thing they're proud of, then why did MW lie?

MW representatives said they didn't know. Apparently, had they known then they wouldn't have done it. Seems you think they should have done it whether they knew or not. The MW women realize they messed up. That's why they made up an excuse and lied. You can't admit they screwed up at all.

They said their visit to Awart had been before the gag order on the investigation was lifted. So they couldn't have known.

The problem is their visit and reports thereafter took place after the investigation was concluded (after the murderers re-enacted the crime in Itamar). They even admit on their website (in hebrew) that the town was sealed and they couldn't get in. By the time they finally got in, everyone in Israel who kept up with the case knew the killers had been caught.

Big scandal.

[azurnoir]

66. according to your links Machsom Watchs visit took place on the 4/7/11

the arrests were not made until 4/12/11 5 days later and once again what you say about Awarta being closed is questionable at best as your former claims have been shown to untrue and BTW "everyone knew" stopped being IMO a believable excuse in about 9th grade

[shira]

69. I'll have to do some research to find when the re-enactment of the crime scene was conducted

Awarta was sealed off.

Google the two words Awarta and seal. You'll find plenty of references.

[azurnoir]

70. I already posted a number of them and as the links show

ISM at the verry least was allowed in even when Awarta was sealed

Awarta was sealed and unsealed a number of times

[Violet_Crumble]

59. I'm not the slightest bit interested in the unrelenting smear jobs...

What I'm interested in, and finding just a bit disturbing, is how any American can sit there and accuse Israelis like the women from Maschom Watch of being 'anti-Israel'...

So, bringing it back to what the group is about, here's something right there on the homepage, if you'd bothered looking. Feel free to try to explain why yr opposed to what they do.

'Machsomwatch is a movement of Israeli women, peace activists from all sectors of Israeli society, who oppose the Israeli occupation and the denial of Palestinians' rights to move freely in their land. Since 2001, we have conducted daily observations of IDF checkpoints in the West Bank, along the separation fence and in the seamline zone, on the main roads and on out-of-the-way dirt roads, as well as in the offices of the Civil Administration (DCOs) and in military courts. We regularly document what we see and hear. The reports of these observations are published on the Machsomwatch site, and sent to public officials and elected representatives. Through the documentation which discloses the nature of everyday reality, we are attempting to influence public opinion in the country and in the world, and thus to bring to an end the destructive occupation, which causes damage to Israeli society as well as to Palestinian society.'

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/women-war-and-peace/features/machsom-watch/

And here's a video on Maschom Watch and the work they do for anyone interested in Israeli groups getting out there and trying to help the Palestinian people...

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/women-war-and-peace/features/machsom-watch/

Now, OTOH, when I make assertions, unlike you I'm able to back them up w/o going off track, making strawman or red herring arguments, ad hominem attacks, labeling my opposition as "rightwing", bigoted, etc.

If shown I'm wrong, I admit it.

No you don't. In this very thread you made blatantly false accusations aimed at two women, one of who had the gall to write something positive about a museum exhibition on Islam and say it'd provide balance, and the other who committed the apparently unforgivable sin of speaking out against anti-Muslim bigotry in the UK media. Haven't seen you admit yr wrong on any of that. In fact, last time you popped up responding you were still repeating the same false accusations...

And, as for claiming you don't accuse others of being rightwing or bigoted, have you got a few hours to wade through the many times you'd posted those sorts of accusations back at DU2? I'm happy to start ferrying links over

[shira]

64. A smear job is unsubstantiated. The MW women made up an excuse to cover their asses...

Last edited Sat Feb 11, 2012, 12:58 PM - Edit history (1)

...once they knew they screwed up. They said they didn't know where they were and who they were with. That goes to show that had they known, they wouldn't have done it. But they lied, and as you see in the debate with Azurnoir above, it was a pathetic lie that exposes them for the frauds they are.

So tell me, if you were to ever believe that MW screwed up big time, and did something very wrong, would you speak out against it?

As to Karen Armstrong, we can continue with that one if you wish. Since you claim to know so much about her, tell me what she has to write about the history of Islamists regarding FGM, stoning, decapitation, slavery, their antisemitic and anti-christian actions, etc.

She can't criticize any of that, and that's pretty fucking bad. She says that some of the most extreme things Islamists do is a result of what was already happening in North Africa. Islamist antisemitism is due to Christian influence. The Jewish bible is just as bad and they have their extremists too. Yada, yada deflection after deflection. You'd know this if you were such a big fan of hers. She deflects criticism away from the most extremely insane rightwing Islamists. As written previously, by being an apologist for the most extreme Islamists, she's undermining more liberal/secular Muslims who suffer under that rule. She does them no favors.

There's nothing wrong with portraying Islam as peaceful and writing about its merits. That's wonderful. But what she does to Islamic history is no better than some fundamentalist rightwing nutball crank extremist portraying the history of Christianity as 100% pure and awesome, while explaining away every conceivable criticism of it the past 2000 years.

[azurnoir]

72. Interesting post attempting to demonize not just Islam but Christianity as well

Guess only one group has rights in the Holy Land?

[shira]

73. Another deflection. Another new low for you...

So now it's demonizing Christianity by daring to acknowledge and criticize the movement's history the last 2000 years?

Priceless.

[azurnoir]

75. what exactly am I deflecting?

shira what has been shown here is 'someones' utter lack lack of any compassion and need to demonize anyone who dares show compassion for the other as Machsom Watch did in Awarta

[shira]

76. You deflect from any post written to you or to your colleagues here.

I asked you a direct question earlier and you never replied. It was simple. MW claims they didn't know who they were with. That goes to show that had they known, they wouldn't have gone there to console the family. But you believe they should have anyway and have nothing to be sorry about. Am I right? You're advocating for something that MW believes is something that went too far, considering the circumstances.

You also didn't comment on the Karen Armstrong critique from my post to Violet. You deflected with demonization of Christianity. Maybe you feel that if some Christian Zionists are reading these threads, they'll reconsider their support for Israel. That's what you want, isn't it?