Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forum(MUST READ) Peace? From the Palestinian Standpoint, There is a Past, No Future
The project involved meetings every few weeks and a concluding seminar in Turkey.
On the third day of the seminar after we had become acquainted, had removed barriers, and split helpings of rachat Lukum [a halva-like almond Arab delicacy] as though there was never a partition wall between us, we began to touch upon many subjects which were painful for both sides. The Palestinians spoke of roadblocks and the IDF soldiers in the territories, while the Israeli side spoke of constant fear, murderous terrorist attacks, and rockets from Gaza.
The Israeli side, which included representatives from right and left, tried to understand the Palestinians’ vision of the end of the strife– “Let’s talk business.” The Israelis delved to understand how we can end the age-old, painful conflict. What red lines are they willing to be flexible on? What resolution will satisfy their aspirations? Where do they envision the future borders of the Palestinian State which they so crave?
We were shocked to discover that not a single one of them spoke of a Palestinian State, or to be more precise, of a two-state solution.
more (translated from original hebrew)...
http://baruchsbreeze.blogspot.co.il/2013/05/high-hopes-for-peace-smashed-story-of.html
source:
http://news.walla.co.il/?w=%2F2952%2F2638853
The conflict cannot be understood fully without knowledge of the above.
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Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)Dancing by yourself isn't very satisfying. Maybe someday
delrem
(9,688 posts)
pelsar
(12,283 posts)how its not about peace..its about "justice"
a definition which is very "loosely defined" depending upon who's is doing the defining and which culture and society they belong to.
(I forget, are you one of those who believes they understand what "universal justice is" and that everyone from the congo to iran to gaza to the taliban to republicans, to communists, to socialist, to anarchists, to settlers to democrats all agree on this definition...and if they don't they will be "re-educated"
delrem
(9,688 posts)So I repeat what you say is right: It isn't a dance. It's a siege and occupation, coupled with denial of the rights of a whole people.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)vs peace.....
care to comment on the difference:
is peace between the two warring societies a secondary issue? or do you believe in the magic concept of if there is "justice' (as defined by you) then peace must follow?
delrem
(9,688 posts)Your question is somewhat along the lines of your usual challenges requiring yes/no answers, your usual claims that folk who don't respond in the exact manner you require "lack courage" or are "internet cowards", and so on.
But really, this time you're jumping the shark with a totally loaded, yet senseless, question.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)its "senseless" if you have that religious belief that "justice/rights" (your particular version) must result in "peace" and harmony
for others, who are little bit more knowledgeable and accepting/ tolerent of other cultures (not your strong point), there is a difference
delrem
(9,688 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)It won't. And there's no reason for you (other than being ashamed) to not just admit it.
So your "just" solution will only result in more war.
aranthus
(3,385 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)Neither Netanyahu and certainly not Bennett have any intention of allowing a Palestinian state between the Jordan and the sea.
Netanyahu *punished* the Palestinian people for the uppityness of their finally asking the UN for some recognition -- and what was the *punishment*? The punishment was to accelerate Israel's longstanding program of settlement building on Palestinian land, and kettling of the Palestinian people. IMO the conflict can't be understood without acknowledgement of those LEGISLATED FACTS.
The author of this piece engages in gross, prejudicial generalizations, damning one side, "them", with vague allegations and praising the other, "us", for taking some unexplained but supposedly benevolent high road. The article itself doesn't refer to any minutes, doesn't provide any verbatim account of positions discussed, and in its total denial of the Palestinian voice it serves to prop up the status quo of an occupation and seige bent on continuing the ongoing annexation of Palestinian land and kettling of the Palestinian people, herding Palestinians into totally dependent economic backwaters, ghettos.
The article is a sham.
shira
(30,109 posts)From the Peel Commission to the Partition Plan, from Khartoum 1967 to Camp David/Taba in 2000-01, to Olmert in 2008.
What makes you think the Palestinians support 2 states for 2 people?
The state should be negotiated peacefully.
Obviously, you have a problem with that. Israelis prefer a peaceful settlement to endless rocket and suicide attacks from 1948 armistice lines that would put the people of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem into the same (actually worse) situation as those in Sderot.
It's called a dose of reality. The author is a leftwing, pro-palestinian peace activist who had an eye-opening experience at this youth conference. She was absolutely shocked and horrified by what she saw and heard. Not that this is news to any Israeli who is well aware of what goes on in the Palestinian territories.
You don't believe that's the majority Palestinian viewpoint?
It's called reality.
73% of 1,010 Palestinians in W. Bank, Gaza agree with 'hadith' quoted in Hamas Charter about the need to kill Jews hiding behind stones, trees.
http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=229493
When 73% of Palestinians want Jews dead, why on earth wouldn't you believe that the vast majority are not interested in a 2 state settlement?
delrem
(9,688 posts)And this article is typical of it.
shira
(30,109 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Funny how you deny what the majority of Palestinians want (an utter end to Israel via RoR, 1-state, and total war) when that's exactly what you advocate here daily.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)the one that quotes an end times prophecy from the Koran where in the Jews and Muslims fight an all out war?
of course the Israel Project won't tell you that's what it is but in some respects it's no different than Christian onbes where in all those who are not Christians (including Jews) die
shira
(30,109 posts)You can only spin so much...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and it's an end times prophecy, but the way you spin it is umm artful
it also seems you jumped up the % by 7 points from 73% to 80%
shira
(30,109 posts)As to this "jump" from 73% to 80%....
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)maybe you'll convince someone somewhere.............
shira
(30,109 posts)Maybe if you keep telling yourself that, you'll convince yourself.
After all, George Costanza says that it's not a lie if you believe it.
I smell a rat
when Arutz 7 has it ... and every religious right wing blogger has it , like the one you linked to
pardon me
but I smell a rat
and if she is " a leftwing, pro-palestinian peace activist " I will be amongst the first to apologise to her ... but I have never heard of her until today
its just more right wing hasbara shira
its not called " reality "
its your " sham "
but go along with it as much as you like
the rest of the world has had it with your lies your sham and your hypocrisy
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat May 11, 2013, 09:05 PM - Edit history (2)
Is this something you're unaware of?
Or are you well aware of it but pretending it's not true?
Your fascist left & right-winged anti-zionist friends spew the same crap constantly about Palestine from the river to the sea and here you are denying it's what most Palestinians want? Come on, who do you think you're fooling?
======
Amos Oz (2000)
This is 13 years old now. It was not written by a bigoted right-winger, but by someone with impeccable pro-peace credentials.
Why is it so difficult to believe the OP in light of this?
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)Been there?
The UN voted to make two states out of the British Mandate in Palestine in 1947. On May 14 1948, the state of Israel declared Independence. 4 Arab Armies immediately invaded. Jordan took control of the west bank and East Jerusalem. Egypt had the Sinai and the Gaza Strip.
The State of Palestine was established in 1988. There is a Palestinian state. The PLO has been the officially recognized representative of the Palestinian people to the United Nations since 1974.
The population of Israel is 75% jewish, 20.7% Arab Palestinians, and 4% other minorities. The presence of Jewish persons in the State of Palestine is forbidden by law. Israel has universal voting rights.
delrem
(9,688 posts)against the strong objections of the USA and Israel.
Israel recognizes only one nationality as official: the Jewish Nationality. So not all *citizens* of Israel have the same rights, esp. with respect to the land.
There is no "state of Palestine" according as Israel asserts, and Israel has military control of all the land. There are only the territories of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. Israel does not recognize the territories of Judea and Samaria as occupied Palestinian territories, for the simple reason that Israel does not recognize the existence of any country except for Israel between the Jordan and the sea. So Israel uses the mendacious locution "disputed territories", wherein 60%, Area C, is totally ruled in every way by Israeli military forces which have the power to relocate Palestinian communities at will and to designate the vacated areas as "closed military zones". Needless to say the IDF uses that power. Specially built Caterpillar D9 armored bulldozers were marketed to Israel for precisely that purpose.
A cursory look at a map, or better, at a time-lined series of maps, shows the balkanization of the Palestinian population, the inroads of the Wall, the settlements, the apartheid roads and transportation systems, the annexed aquifers and surrounding farmland for expansion, coupled with the grand plan outlined by the boundaries fixed by Area C. Maps display an ongoing program of apartheid that one has to work pretty hard to deny. For example your reference to '48, "4 Arab armies invaded", reaches back 65 years. It reaches back to a history isolated from the ongoing actions of the Irgun, of Ben-Gurion's ethnic cleansing, etc., and portrays the Zionist faction as acting 100% defensively against "Arabs", even though history says different. Zionism, after all, is Zionism, and it depends in essence on the creation of and perpetuation of a Jewish majority having sovereignty over the land of a Jewish state. Those conditions didn't exist prior to 1948 -> a cleansing was needed.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)You do know this is the year 5773, Hebrew people have lived there since the 18th century BCE. There has been an unbroken jewish presence in the area since the 18th century BCE. Where are you getting your facts? I'm using Wiki for quick references and the jewishvirtuallibrary for more detailed work. I also use Britannica Online.
Comparing the ratios of land of Israel and the lands of the Arabs, it's like you're saying a dollar bill is kicking a football field's ass.
As for the shifting borders, when the first wave of Arabian armies attacked the Haganah pushed them back. The Arab armies vowed to push all the jews into the sea. All the land would be seized. They failed, miserably. Each attack over the last 65 years from the arab population was to remove the Jews. The PLO charter calls for the removal of the Jews. Yet the Jews should give the land back to the ones trying to take all of theirs.
The lands you are addressing are areas disputed by Both states. It's the 1967 treaty border.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Because of course, Algeria's square acreage really matters to the Palestinians.
Don't use up all your nonsense in one post, man. Pace yourself! One nonsense point per two posts, spread it out and work it in. At this rate, pretty soon all you'll have to regale us with is "The Jews made the desert bloom!" and "Intel has a factory in Israel!"
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)Sorry, I was looking at a wider picture. I didn't realize we could only look at your defined area within your timeline.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Sticking with just the example I picked from your post at the moment... Again, the amount of territory claimed by Algeria, or Oman, or whoever, does not matter to this discussion. It's a red herring, irrelevant to anything. It's also packed with several internal logical and historical fallacies besides.
There are a lot of those, from both sides of the discussion. It's sort of "entry-level" stuff, the basic set of catapulted propaganda talking points. You seem to have scooped up a handful and are packing 'em all into one post, which is why I'm suggesting you pace yourself. At the moment it kinda looks like you're doing a gish gallop over there.
Half-Century Man
(5,279 posts)I'll try to live up to your standards.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Those are the choices. The author of the article was explaining that she wanted a two-state solution and was disillusioned to discover that Palestinians want war. I'm not surprised. I even see this attitude of wanting war rather than a two-state solution for the moment. It's very sad. The alternative to two states living side-by-side in peace with negotiated borders is war. That is the reality.
delrem
(9,688 posts)You voice an opinion "Palestinians want war".
I note a fact: Gaza and the West Bank are under occupation and siege.
shira
(30,109 posts)http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=229493
You can pretend that's not the reality of the situation, deny it on the grounds of 'racism', but Israelis cannot afford to do so - and shouldn't be expected to.
Denying historical genocidal anti-Jew hatred (going way back to Hitler's Mufti from the 1930's - the first leader of the Palestinians) is really no different than Holocaust denial. I'll remind you that there was no siege, occupation, or settlements going on way back then.
If you're genuinely interested in a just, peaceful solution for both sides then I recommend you start dealing with reality rather than continue on with your war propaganda.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)And, if you read the article, you learn that Palestinians want to occupy Israel. That is the whole crux of the problem. Borders can be negotiated. Settlements can be torn down. But the basic willingness to respect those borders, but there has to be compromise.
It has been 65 years. It's time for compromise and peace. Mutual respect.
cali
(114,904 posts)a lesser degree, inhabitants of the west bank endure.
And anyone who believes the right wing dog shit in this phony ass article, is suffering from extreme bias.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)We need to think for ourselves and not swallow the Palestinian propaganda. Do Palestinians need a better deal? Yes. But dwelling in the past and not dealing with the present reality is not going to help them.
Millions of Americans were foreclosed. They lost their homes. In some cases, the people who lost their homes had lived in them for a good part of their lives. They had borrowed against their houses -- in some cases to pay healthcare costs, in some to pay for education and in some to pay for repairs to their house.
They aren't threatening to take back their homes by force. The whole idea is absurd.
The UN divided the British Protectorate which had, previously been a part of the Ottoman Empire. The Palestinians need to understand that they never had a state. They have a chance to have one now. They need to show themselves up to the task of establishing the state and making peace with all their neighbors. It's called being grown-up. it requires being realistic.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)your knowledge of both situations could be lacking 
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)In fact, that is why I think that Israel and Palestine would do well to forget the past. No one seems to know or agree on what it is. It is time to forge a peace and look forward. Both countries, both peoples need peace. They need to work together and be good neighbors.
Palestine has to give up the idea of right to return. It is absurd at this time. You never go home. Tried that. It does not work.
Palestinians look back to a time that they do not really remember. They glorify it and think they want to return to it. If they could, they would hate it. They were under the rule of the Ottoman Empire and then the British.
They should take the opportunity to have their own country and live in harmony with each other and their neighbors. Their children will benefit enormously if they cut their losses now.
This is the pragmatic and correct thing to do. And it will throw the burden on Israel to reciprocate the neighborliness. With the worldview what it is today, that will benefit the Palestinians and indirectly also the Israelis. They all need peace more than they need to be right or to return to some mythical past.
cali
(114,904 posts)the bias is contemptible. bias is natural enough and I can accept that, but not, as it is here, when it pretends not to be biased.
look how little pinkish girl describes things:
"The Palestinians spoke of roadblocks and the IDF soldiers in the territories, while the Israeli side spoke of constant fear, murderous terrorist attacks, and rockets from Gaza."
So none of the Palestinians live in fear of the murderous onslaught of Israeli bombings in Gaza? Gee that's believable. FUCKING NOT.
She goes on to claim that the Israelis strove to understand and reach out but the Palestinians were blood thirsty cretins.
I don't believe a word of what she says.
More right wing dog shit from YOU.
Sickening dehumanization is all you do.
I don't think you should be allowed on DU.
ENOUGH
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Fri May 10, 2013, 07:06 PM - Edit history (1)
You've practically swallowed the entire Palestinian narrative in whole.
So none of the Palestinians live in fear of the murderous onslaught of Israeli bombings in Gaza? Gee that's believable. FUCKING NOT.
Yeah right, they fear Israel so much that women and children human shields flock to rooftops of buildings in order to stop the IDF from bombing terrorist targets...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=351_1231430391
Weird huh?
Not only that, but Palestinian "non-violent resistance" consists of goading IDF soldiers into attacking children...
I'm betting the demonizing Palestinian narrative you believe in so much doesn't account for either scenario above. Am I right? Guess reality bites, huh? This is common knowledge in Israel.
It takes full trust in the IDF not to attack civilians in order for Palestinians to attempt the above.
I don't believe a word of what she says.
Yeah right, that's really hard to believe when the following is taken into account....
When given a quote from the Hamas Charter about the need for battalions from the Arab and Islamic world to defeat the Jews, 80% agreed. Seventy-three percent agreed with a quote from the charter (and a hadith, or tradition ascribed to the prophet Muhammad) about the need to kill Jews hiding behind stones and trees.
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/6-in-10-Palestinians-reject-2-state-solution-survey-finds
Sickening dehumanization is all you do.
I don't think you should be allowed on DU.
ENOUGH
I really and truly do not believe you have any clue as to what dehumanization and demonization entails.
You severely underestimate the loathing and hatred most Palestinians have vs. Jews. I wonder if it's on purpose. At any rate, the attempt to demonize and dehumanize the other is demonstrated above. It is the Palestinian side through their leadership that is hellbent on demonizing and dehumanizing Israelis (Jews) as baby killers. And you fall for that disgusting rightwing haterade every freaking time...
cali
(114,904 posts)sad example of someone who engages in that vile pastime.
You are one sided to the point of moral sickness and decay.
shira
(30,109 posts)...you would say such a report is demonization and dehumanization of Palestinians?
Would you say the same if 70-80% of Americans felt that way towards Jews?
=======
These questions are too difficult for you to answer, right?
Israeli
(4,141 posts).... see my post # 27 to shira
all you have to do is google just who is spreading this BS ... its all coming from religious right wing websites .... right up shira's street
its exactly what they believe
I'm a left wing peace activist and I have spoken to many Palestinians , and yes some think that way just as many of our right wing think the same way ... but its not all Palestinians just as its not all Israelis .
never never never trust anything that comes from Arutz 7 ... its the mouthpiece of the settler movement
cali
(114,904 posts)It's just so insidious. And I have a strong aversion to dehumanization of a people- that goes for dehumanization of Israelis as well, which unfortunately I also see here.
Israeli
(4,141 posts)I guess we are a lot alike
you should come visit one day ... I'll show you a side of us that few see over the internet .. its the side that wants to live together ... in peace harmony and equality .
shira
(30,109 posts)I first asked for students to raise their hands if they generally support Israel. All the students to my left and several in the middle raised their hands. I then asked how many students supported the Palestinian side. All the students to my right and several in the middle raised their hands. I then posed the following question to the pro-Israel group: “How many of you would support a Palestinian state living in peace and without terrorism next to Israel?” Every single pro-Israel hand immediately went up. I then asked how many on the pro-Palestine side would accept a Jewish state within the 1967 borders, with no settlements on territory claimed by the Palestinians. There was some mumbling and brief conversation among the people to my right, but not a single hand was raised.
The debate was essentially over, as everyone in the middle now recognized that this was not a conflict between pro-Israel and pro-Palestine groups, but rather, a conflict between those who would accept a two-state solution and those who would reject any Jewish state anywhere in the Middle East. The pro-Israel view had prevailed because I was able to use the extremism of the anti-Israel group to demonstrate the ugly truth about Israel’s enemies to the large group of students in the middle with open minds.
I have now used this heuristic repeatedly on college campuses, and with considerable success. The lesson, I believe, is not to try to persuade irrational anti-Israel extremists, but rather, to use their extremism - which often includes anti-American and anti-Western extremism - against them and in favor of a reasonable and centrist pro-Israel position.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4227866,00.html
Now you can try believing that's:
a) bullshit
b) typical of palestinian supporters only, but not most palestinians
Which is it?
cali
(114,904 posts)no bias there. Yikes, honey. try again.
shira
(30,109 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)YOU want to see the Palestinians as evil and bloodthirsty monsters. It's sick. It's hate. and you need help. seriously.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat May 11, 2013, 09:07 PM - Edit history (1)
...wanting Jews killed? Or this one showing 4% of Palestinians have a favorable opinion of Jews (vs. 82% in the USA)?
http://www.pewglobal.org/2011/07/21/muslim-western-tensions-persist/
All lies?
Dehumanization?
========
Looks like denial & not that much better than holocaust denial.
You're actually accusing those for peace & opposed to bigotry and hate of being bigots & warmongers themselves. That's as fucked up as it gets. Tell you what, here's Amos Oz from 2000. I dare you to call him a dehumanizing, anti-Palestinian rightwing bigot....
Turbineguy
(37,312 posts)when you have to start out with "Everything you have been told for the past 50 years is a lie." The damage Arafat and his propaganda has done to the Palestinians has to be overcome first.
It took centuries to overcome the effects of the Reformation in Europe.