Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumWhat does Israel’s Arab minority really think?
There is a huge difference between the responses of ordinary Israeli Arabs and the typical discourse of the Arab elite.The picture is thus complicated, and the fundamental attitude of the Arab minority towards the State appears to be deeply ambivalent. But given the prolonged national conflict, with no end in sight at this point, this ambivalence should be regarded as good news. The Arab parties express the negative aspect of this ambivalence well enough; but anyone reading the survey will notice that the other aspect exists as well, and it is not at all negligible.
Proud to be Israeli. Some 44.5 per cent of Arab citizens (compared with 89 per cent of Jewish Israelis) answered affirmatively when asked whether they are ‘proud to be Israeli’ (14.1 per cent ‘very proud’, 30.4 per cent ‘quite proud’, 20.4 per cent ‘not so proud’ and 29.3 per cent ‘not at all proud’). This reflects a decline from last year, when 52.8 per cent of Arabs responded positively, but it is still within the normal fluctuations over the last decade (between more than 40 and more than 50 per cent). Some argue that a state that defines itself as Jewish cannot, by definition, inspire feelings of patriotism among its Arab citizens – these findings tell a different story. It should be noted that the expression the survey uses is not ‘Israeli citizen’ but ‘Israeli’. In theory this should be the same thing, but in fact, everyone living in Israel knows that both Jews and Arabs often use the term ‘Israeli’ as a synonym for an ‘Israeli Jew’.
To my knowledge, none of the leaders of the Arab public would adopt the label ‘Israeli’, and many reject this term explicitly. The Arab leadership also rejects the term ‘Israeli Arab’ because it sounds too Israeli. The acceptable alternative is not ‘Palestinian Israeli’ or ‘Israeli Palestinian’ but ‘Arab Palestinian citizen of Israel,’ or ‘(Arab) Palestinian in Israel’. Under these conditions, the willingness of slightly less and sometimes slightly more than a half of the Arab public to adopt the label ‘Israeli’ and express pride in it is of great significance. A few years ago I spoke with a group of British journalists who questioned me about the situation of Arab citizens of Israel. After dealing with various specific points, I asked them: do you suppose that 45 per cent of Catholics in Northern Ireland would be prepared to say ‘I am proud to be British’? One of them replied, ‘I don’t believe there are 45 Catholics in Northern Ireland who are willing to say I am proud to be British, never mind 45 per cent.’ Of course, he may have been exaggerating.
Israeli democracy. In relation to Israeli democracy, 44 per cent of Arab respondents say Israel’s democracy is at the ‘appropriate level’, 7.8 per cent say Israel is ‘too democratic’, 37.2 per cent said it is ‘not democratic enough’ and only 11 per cent that it is ‘not democratic enough by far’. The last answer corresponds to what is routinely said by virtually the entire Arab leadership. In fact, the ‘vision documents’ of the Arab leadership claim that Israel is not a democracy at all. That is not the opinion of the Arab public.
more...
http://eipa.eu.com/2013/05/what-does-israels-arab-minority-really-think/#.UaS27XiY7OI.twitter
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shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)I have traveled many times outside Iran, and have discussed the issue (of the Iranian nuclear project)]. I have been asked for my opinion and that of the Iranian Jewish community, and I have always emphasized that the Iranian people has the right to obtain nuclear technology and energy for peaceful purposes. The Iranian people must not give up this right under any circumstances - and indeed, it will not.
Maurice Matomed, the elected majlis representative for Iranian Jews
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Tue May 28, 2013, 07:33 PM - Edit history (1)
....and admit they're supporters of Zionism? As if they're free to do so w/o fear of retribution?
Piss-poor attempt to divert with bullshit.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)No, I don't.
I thought that was rather the point.
aranthus
(3,385 posts)So is your point that Israeli Arabs are as fearful of voicing their true opinions as Iranian Jews must be? Because on the face of it, that's just ridiculous. On the other hand, if your point is that Iranian Jews are fearful of voicing their opinions when Israeli Arabs are not, well, that's obvious and irrelevant to shira's post. Either way it looks like diversion. so what really was your point?
but they are probably more fearful of voicing their true opinions than Northern Irish Catholics are.
No one is suggesting rounding up Irish Catholics in Belfast and deporting them to the Irish republic. No one is suggesting forcing Northern Irish Catholics to swear an oath of loyalty to the British state.
But in Israel, many people, including many in the Israeli government, openly advocate for the transfer of the Arabs, and forcing them to swear an oath of loyalty, and many other things besides.
To illustrate: about 8% of Northern Irish Catholics identify as British. About half of Israeli Arabs identify as Israeli.
I imagine if you asked Iranian Jews if they identified as Iranian, at least 95% of them would say yes. And probably less than 1% would identify as Israeli.
I know these realisations are terribly upsetting for you. But do try and let go.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)the Arab minority supports Zionism ?
Proud to be Israeli ... now that I accept .
You can be " Proud to be Israeli " without being a Zionist shira .
Mosby
(16,259 posts)"Proud to be an Israeli" is a nationalistic sentiment.
Deal.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)but I dont understand " is a nationalistic sentiment. "
could you explain for me , I tried googling it but still dont understand
how is your Hebrew ?
can you translate for me ?
BTW I'm not hung up on terminology .... its shira that keeps throwing the term Zionism around as if all Israelis are Zionists including our own Arab citizens
shira
(30,109 posts)Some 75 percent of the poll's 507 respondents said they would agree with such a definition, while 23 percent said they would oppose it.
I'm certain you were unaware of that. Are you disappointed by the poll results?
Here's another whopper for you...
Yet since 1996, Dr. Shikaki has been polling Palestinians about what governments they admire, and every year Israel has been the top performer, at times receiving more than 80 percent approval. The American system has been the next best, followed by the French and then, distantly trailing, the Jordanian and Egyptian.
In its early days, the Palestinian Authority held fourth place, with about 50 percent approval. Now, it is dead last, under 20 percent. Corruption, mismanagement and the stagnation of the Palestinian predicament have turned the culture of criticism against the Palestinian rulers.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/02/international/middleeast/02LETT.html?pagewanted=1
I'm sure that disappoints you too.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)it just goes to show that Palestinians are generally quite compliant if you treat them with a modicum of humanity.
Its a pity that Israel was unable to do so in the occupied territories.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)the Ha'aretz article was published but from this OP something left out
Before setting out the findings, we must ask how reliable they are. It is sometimes suggested that the relatively positive results of these kinds of surveys reflect the reluctance of Arab participants to express their views with full candor and their desire to appease the establishment or the Jewish majority. But one of the survey’s most interesting findings is the negative answer given by the great majority of Arab respondents to the question, ‘Do you think that the Knesset Members from Arab parties are more radical than the general Arab public?’ Only 24.4 per cent think so; almost half of the rest say the Arab MK’s are actually more moderate than the Arab public at large. This is obviously a very disappointing answer from the viewpoint of the Jewish majority. Those who gave it were clearly not afraid of anybody and not trying to please anybody. Precisely for this reason, it can be regarded as strengthening the credibility of the other answers in the survey: after having expressed support for their political leadership, the Arab citizens proceeded to give, on many important points, answers that are hugely different from what the leadership is saying.
http://eipa.eu.com/2013/05/what-does-israels-arab-minority-really-think/#.UaS27XiY7OI.twitter
kind of casts a different light on the matter
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)You could interpret that one of two ways. Firstly, the Arabs may not want to hang their politicians out to dry. Alternatively, it may be a reflection that quite a few of the Arab MKs are indeed moderates, they just get next to no attention compared to the more contentious Arab MKs.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but what can one say about about a country where a whooping 45% of the minority population feels proud to be a citizen
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)there is indeed a variety of thought that runs the gamut from radical to conservative, gee just like any other human society
pelsar
(12,283 posts)nothing like ignoring the arabs/palestenians own wishes and actions and pretending that they can't affect anything.....
the israeli arabs under military occupation after the war of 48 apparently accepted the change in govt, accepted the new rules, the new way of life and saw a better future....and worked with the govt to improve their lives, and apparently its working
the Palestenians post 67, took a different attitude toward their occupiers for a variety of reasons, and bear a large part of the responsibility for the consequences of their actions......
__
i cant decide if its a benign form or racism or the classic simplistic "feel good" -- the underdog is helpless' mentality that so many believe, that the Palestenians can't affect their political environment despite decades of proof that they can.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)That's Machiavelli, in case you didn't know.
Israel treats Arab Israelis, East Jerusalem residents, and Golan Heights residents with something approaching "generosity" in the broad sense of the word.
In the West Bank, Israel has neither treated the Palestinians generously, nor destroyed them. You reap what you sow.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)because i sure dont agree with such a simple viewpoint.
The Palestenians in the west bank had choices over the years.....given that i dont believe in the parallel universe science fiction game..i cant say what would have happened if other choices were made but, they still made choices that rejected israeli attempts at improving the relations.
1)they Palestenians rejected the better housing that israel attempted to build them,
(defined by them as permanent housing- hence rejected)
2)they rejected the israeli attempt to coordinate with the local villages via committees
(defined by the PLO as collaborators)
had they accepted both, again i have no idea where it would have led, but its an example of israeli attempting to better the conditions and it being rejected by the PLO for political reasons.
and to save you some data flow...of course israel had its own self interest in doing so, thats how states operate, in this instance however it would have been good the Palestenians as well as we have seen with other examples....
and arafat rejected those options.
You reap what you sow...
and they are still under an occupation that is now worse than it was with a good chunk being under hamas
delrem
(9,688 posts)I can't tell how many times you've used the term "simple" to describe views you don't understand, just in the last few months. It would be easier to count how many times you didn't use it, a number that comes nice and close to zero. In contrast, I doubt Machiavelli ever called a problem of war and peace "simple", even as Machiavellian as he was.
Your "substantive" argument amounts to being the proposition that, because Palestinians haven't accepted the terms of their enslavement, of accepting their subordination in the scheme of things, so they deserve whatever enslavement and subordination that is inflicted on them. Not much of an argument, on the "substantive" side.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i disdain the "if only israel did x or y, then all would be well. Usually those who propose such solutions have to believe that the Palestenians have no ability to affect the environment...
and when i see that, its obvious to me that the person who is proposing such a viewpoint is proposing a simple viewpoint that is probably based on their own religion/ideology. simple solution for simpletons
ignoring the ability of the Palestenians to affect the environment dispite historical evidence that they infact can, is absurd but to admit it is to destroy the simple argument that only israel can solve the problem.
and that is entering the land where no one can go, hence your description of the Palestenians ability to affect the environment is
accepting their subordination
its evidence of how you think of them...and some sort of sub species that when they make their own decisions within their limitations, you believe they are accepting their subordination, rather then making decisions where they can to further their own goals.
_____
do you need list of just how the Palestenians have affect the lives of thousands, how their actions have changed their lives for better or worse?....
delrem
(9,688 posts)all in the vein of a boast/accusation, that you're a deep thinker: so there!
pelsar
(12,283 posts)you can't even think of how the Palestenians might do certain things on their own that will change the political/military environment..
that would be admitting that they in fact do have some responsibilities for their present situation....and to admit that is to leave the world of "simple"
and you can't do that.......since, as i understand it, you dont believe they even have that ability....thats a simplistic belief, that requires simple answers.
delrem
(9,688 posts)
not disappointed
still doesnt make them Zionists tho shira
oberliner
(58,724 posts)If so, not only did you get his name wrong, but you are also wrong in stating that he is the elected majlis representative for Iranian Jews.
Dr. Ciamak Moresadegh has been that representative since 2008.
Incidentally, have you got a citation for your quote? Was it translated by MEMRI?
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Or maybe just a link to where you found it?
delrem
(9,688 posts)But can you track down the original source? Were the remarks initially made in English or were they translated by someone? If the latter, who did the translation? Was it a group with a particular agenda like MEMRI? If the remarks weren't made in English, is there a link to them in their original language?
A Google search, while turning up various sites that include this same quotation, has not led me to the original remarks in the original language in their original context. Has it for you? If so, can you share a link?
Mosby
(16,259 posts)True Jews hate Israel: Iran's Jewish MP
October 29, 2005
MP for Jewish community Morris Motamed said that all the true Jews and followers of the divine religion as well as those believing in Moses (AS) hate usurper Israel due to the barbaric behavior of the 'Zionist' regime.
The unequal war and clashes between Israelis, equipped with the most advanced weapons, and Palestinians, with stones in their hands, should be taken as the root cause of the public resentment, Motamed told IRNA on the sidelines of the World Quds Day rallies.
He reiterated, "The late Imam's slogan that Israel should be wiped off the world map" reflects the brave resistance of Imam as the founder of the Islamic Republic and said that all nations should do their utmost to materialize Imam's statement."
True Jews, along with Muslim people, follow the path for campaign against Zionists and the Israeli crimes, he noted.
The suppressed people of Palestine should feel that all the followers of divine religions support them, he added.
Thousands have reportedly taken part in the rallies on the World Quds Day, the last Friday of the holy fasting month of Ramadhan.
President Ahmadinejad, the EC Chairman Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani and some senior officials took part in the rallies to express their support for Intifada of Palestine.
http://www.dotandcalm.com/calm-archive/index/t-13265.html
delrem
(9,688 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)from wikiquote
Unsourced [edit]
"In our presence of 2,700 years in Iran, Jews have never betrayed Iran and our roots are so deep that they cannot be cut off."
http://www.jta.org/2000/09/17/life-religion/features/sources-iran-looks-to-u-s-jews-for-help
Context is everything. Still Motamed speaks for 25000 who chose to stay in Iran
shira
(30,109 posts)...and to the very last one, they'll tell you Jews there live in fear. They are certainly not free to speak their minds.
Iran's Jews: Tolerance or veiled persecution?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4361005,00.html
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)a bit like the South African Jews that preferred to go to Australia over Israel (notwithstanding the more stringent migration requirements).
For some reason, Israel tends to be at the bottom of the list for fleeing Jewish emigres.
shira
(30,109 posts)shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)but if I had to take a guess, I'd say it was because they regarded the US as a safer, stabler and more prosperous place.
King_David
(14,851 posts)And a critical mass.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)That would certainly explain the limited English skills of many participants on this board.
King_David
(14,851 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)Israel has been threatening to bomb Iran for a over a decade, and the heat is continuously being ramped up, and Israel goes in front of the UN to explain about "red lines" etc. underlying their threats, etc., and Israel never fails to take an opportunity to explain that Iran is Israel's enemy.
Israel acting, of course, as "the Jewish state", so this *might* have some impact on the situation on the Iranian Jewish community.
Recall that in WW2 the US didn't hesitate to intern their Japanese citizens, just for their ancestry, showing that yes, when war is open or in the offing people are easily led to over-react. To say the least.
In any event, the views of these particular Iranian Jews are on the record. Yes, they have to be read in context. No, it isn't OK to account for that context when slamming Iran, while forgetting it entirely when praising Israel.
shira
(30,109 posts)Do you believe Israel bombed the shit out of Iraq (1981) and Syria (2007) when it took out their nuclear reactors?
====
And FFS, you cannot compare free speech in Israel vs. that in a closed society like Iran. Israel's Arabs have zero to fear from speaking out.
delrem
(9,688 posts)Glad to know (it must be true because shira says it) that Israel isn't targeting Iran - because, as shira says, Iran is just like Syria and Iraq, and what's good for them...
But FFS, do you really think the pretense that Israel is an open society for it's non-Jewish citizens will fly, when it has so many laws and policies keeping Arabs in subordination, from such petty injustices as the Nakba law to major injustices like the land laws - and the biggest injustice of all, the one that defines the Jewish population as necessarily a demographic majority? E.g. laws that allow the dispossession of Arabs in East Jerusalem because the property was Jewish owned before 1948, whereas it disallows the same recourse to those *same* Arabs who were forcibly removed from West Jerusalem. Policies that ensure Arabs don't live in contiguous communities, because that too is a "demographic threat". Policies that forcibly evict Bedouin in the Negev, so Jewish settlers can move into fully equipped and supported settlements while the Bedouin are channeled into a landless, economy-less, ghetto. Policies that don't "recognize the existence of" Arab communities slated for demolition (so deny them water, power,...) because the Jewish state has plans for Jewish use of those areas. ... and on and on.
But it's good to know that shira says that Israel's official rhetoric toward Iran is peaceful, reasonable, and shouldn't set any Iranian alarm bells ringing, because, well, shira says so.
shira
(30,109 posts)Your hatred of all that is Israel compromises your ability to articulate sound, reasonable arguments.
Hate really does blind...
delrem
(9,688 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...rather than running interference for Israel's enemies and pretending Israel is just as bad or worse.
delrem
(9,688 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)A secular, liberal woman from the Galilee, Boshra Khalaila leaves passionate critics of Israel open-mouthed simply by describing the rights and freedoms she routinely enjoys
...‘I compare myself to other women my age in Jordan, the territories, Egypt, any Arab country. They don’t have the rights that I have: freedom of expression, the right to vote. They are forced into marriage at a young age, and religious head covering, despite their own convictions’
Boshra, a secular, independent and patriotic Israeli Arab woman, defies stereotypes. She grew up in a liberal home in the Arab village of Deir Hana, in the Galilee. Her first contact with Jewish Israelis came at the age of 18, when she enrolled in Haifa University. There, she had to speak Hebrew for the first time. And it is there that she started to develop her political conscience and her attachment to the State of Israel.
“I am married and doing a master’s degree [in Tel Aviv]. I am a liberal, free woman, with all the rights that I could enjoy. I compare myself to other women my age in Jordan, the territories, Egypt, any Arab country. They don’t have the rights that I have: freedom of expression, the right to vote. They are forced into marriage at a young age, and religious head covering, despite their own convictions. With me it’s the opposite; I have everything.”
After returning from our mission, we sat down for an interview in the lobby of a Tel Aviv hotel. My first question was why she feels the need to speak up for Israel so publicly — something that most Jews don’t even feel compelled to do. She answered me in perfect Hebrew:
“To sacrifice from myself for the country that I live in and that gives me rights, that’s a natural price.”
Boshra was part of a team of five people, including another Israeli Arab and a Druze, who were sent to South Africa with Faces of Israel during Israel Apartheid Week. Like us, Boshra and her team had to deal with widespread ignorance about Israel, compounded by a campaign of demonization waged by pro-Palestinian students. Unlike us, she could counter the anti-Israel Middle Eastern students as an Arab herself, in Arabic.
“The pro Palestinian students in Johannesburg had built fake barriers and put up all kinds of slogans demonizing Israel and accusing it of Apartheid, of being a child murderer and the like. There were awful pictures, pictures with dead children, it was really terrible.”
Boshra and her team were generally not welcome. “They didn’t even know that there was such a thing as Israeli Arabs. They accused us of being Jews. Some people were hostile, they told us ‘get out,’ ‘we don’t want to hear from you.’ Some were even more unwilling to talk to me because I am Arab and was seen as a traitor, but this was only a small part of their group. Others, thankfully, came to listen; they were open-minded about it.”
...“Most of the talks ended with a handshake and a hug. To me this says it all. I have to say that it was important that I wasn’t there representing the government of Israel. It was surprising for them to see that I was a simple person, defending my country for the rights that I have and not speaking on behalf of the government. It came across as very genuine. For them, this was huge — to be able to listen to someone who is not from the government, including for the pro-Palestinian students. When you tell them you are a student and not a government spokesman, they no longer see you as an enemy.”
shira
(30,109 posts)"From the age of zero I was told that Israel stole Palestine from us, but when I was 14 I woke up. I discovered that Jews are not bad," says Ala Wahib, an operations officer at a key IDF training base, and the highest-ranked Muslim officers in the Israeli army.
http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=5727
“I am the operations officer at the IDF ground forces training base at Tze’elim,” Ala Wahib says at the start of our conversation, his eyes twinkling with excitement. “I am like the mother and father of that place,” he adds. “The only thing is that I don’t really have anyone to share it with, so I make sure to pat myself on the back every now and again, and say ‘dude, you’re awesome. Look how far you’ve come.’”
The truth is that he deserves these accolades. It is not every day that a Muslim Arab, hailing from a village whose residents largely do not recognize Israel’s right to exist, comes to serve in the Israel Defense Forces. And he doesn’t only serve: Major Wahib, 32, is currently the highest ranking Muslim officer in the IDF. He is enormously patriotic, a true Zionist. Precisely the kind of person we like to see lighting the torches during the national Independence Day ceremony every year.
But still, Wahib came to this interview with immense trepidation. Even today, after 12 years in the Israeli military, he still doesn’t feel comfortable openly discussing his views. For years he struggled on all fronts: he fought against the residents of his village, who to this day refer to him as a traitor, and he fought the military institution that never fully understood his motives.
“In my village, they can’t understand what could possibly motivate me to protect a country that is not my own. In the army there are people who know me and would go all the way with me, but there are those who don’t know me and don’t really know how to relate to me,” he says.
So why did he decide to give this interview, with his face exposed and his full name in print? “Because it is important to me to show the Arab public what they are missing. There are quite a lot of people [in the Arab community] who want to enlist, but they are afraid and they don’t know if they will be accepted by their environment. It is important to me to show them the road I’ve traveled, and to make them understand that it is possible.” Regardless, he doesn’t take his hand off his gun for a second during the entire interview. “It is my security. It is my only means of protecting myself,” he says.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)as far as I know Lieutenant colonel Wahid al-Huzayl, commander of the “Beduin Battalion” is .
So , you can only be " enormously patriotic " if you are " a true Zionist " ????
A true Zionist stands up and sings Hatikva shira .
.....now there is a national anthem that unites us all
Who are we shira ?
The Civil Forum demands the full democratization of the state of Israel, meaning the liquidation of various forms of racial discrimination, stemming from the Zionist ideology and practice; cancellation of the "Law of return" and the "Nationality law", closing down the "National institutions" (the Jewish agency, JNF, et cetera), reorganization of the Israeli land authority to accommodate all residents of the state, changing the national flag, symbol and anthem, thus enabling all citizens to identify with them; struggle against the basic tenets of the Zionist ideology, which is a necessary step on the way to achieve divorce of church and state, gender equality, social justice and other democratic goals
@ http://forum-ezrachy.tripod.com/englishIndex.html
We are the Israeli post-zionists shira and we are the future .
It's in the article...
When Wahib says “we” he means the Jewish people. “I believe in the Muslim faith, and I will never abandon it, but I think that Zionism is more than a religion. It is something that fully represents my sense of belonging to the State of Israel and to Israeli society, and the immense commitment I have to protecting and guarding the country of which I am part.”
delrem
(9,688 posts)It all must be true since shira shows that both hasbarists and Israeli NGOs promoting hasbara have anecdotal evidence and opinion polls saying just that!
And when Arab Israelis can claim that *shira* is on their side, and embrace *shira*, that has to be proof of, I dunno, God??? Something damn remarkable, that's for sure.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)that a women would prefer to live in Israel and not in a country where she can't get educated, has to cover herself, gets forced into marriage at a young age, beaten or killed for having a boyfriend? Are you a woman? Nothing hasbara about the treatment of women in Islamic countries.
shira
(30,109 posts)Like most anti-Israel people, he believes in "collective" palestinian human rights, not individual rights for which he could care less.
I thought progressives fight for women's rights - I guess unless they hate the right people, then it's okay to have women as virtual slaves.
delrem
(9,688 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)about the treatment of women by hamas.
Unless you're okay with this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/06/hamas-ban-women-gaza-marathon-missed-opportunity
or this:
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/3389/hamas_cracks_down_on_women_walking_with_men_in_gaza
or how about this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/9965274/Hamas-orders-schools-in-Gaza-to-be-segregated-by-gender.html
Or this:
http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/hamas-fills-gaza-prison-with-women-convicted-of-premartial-sex/
So spare me your outrage - there are plenty of reasons women would rather live in Israel than in some sharia run shithole.
delrem
(9,688 posts)That's not only pure ad hominem aimed at me, its anti-progressive right-wing dreck. pffffooooeeey!
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)about your precious sharia loving hamas. How pathetically predictable.
delrem
(9,688 posts)The Guardian, the BBC and The Telegraph are all lying? I'll tell you what, you post links that tell how wonderful life is for women is under hamas and we'll compare. Go ahead - dazzle me.
delrem
(9,688 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)and quite deranged. I didn't lie about anything and you're a pathetic excuse for an advocate for the Palestinians and nothing but a waste of my time.
delrem
(9,688 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)It was like a cat playing with a toy. Now go an hold your breath until someone tells you how wonderful you are.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)especially considering this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=34561
so now are you saying this is what the women of Gaza wanted?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)it was because they were told to vote that way by their fathers/brother/husbands. You can check out the links I provided to the deranged person below and see how fabulous the lives of women are under hamas. Sorry it doesn't match your narrative that everything would be just dandy if Israel would just leave them alone but it's what you're supporting.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)not allowed to vote or were forced to vote the way they did? do you have links to prove that?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)But yes, I'm claiming the men run the show and they voted they way they were told if they were allowed to leave their homes to vote at all - since they can't even take a walk with a man they're not related to or run in a marathon or go to prison for premarital sex or not being able to attend desegregated schools, is it really so hard for you to believe? Seriously? And I'm sure you call yourself a liberal/progressive. Many here do consider themselves liberals but defend the horrors of sharia law under some kind of moral relativism that makes absolutely no sense.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)oh and what do you think of our POTUS supporting the Hamas trained FSA?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)water is wet or anything else that's right in front of your face? Would you like to further defend hamas on a liberal board because it's telling me a lot. And while you're defending hamas, more women are being punished for merely being women. How very liberal of you.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)nowhere have I supported Hamas, I asked you to prove your own claims, apparently it seems you can not so you accuse, and may I remind you that it was YOU not me who claims that the people of Gaza somehow deserve the treatment they getting from Hamas because it was the people of Gaza who elected them as their leaders=something that facts disprove
BTW you avoid answering the questions about our POTUS apparently supporting Hamas in Syria, why?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)referring to the President and hamas. Has he given them money? Arms? Vocal supports? Anything that means anything?
So are you saying you do not support hamas? That you think the voters screwed up royally by putting a terrorist organization in charge and then having them turn on the women of Gaza to appease their religious freaks? The majority of voters get what they voted for - that's what elections are all about. It sure has turned out great for the ladies, hasn't it? And just when are they going to hold elections again? But then again, you consider Israel the problem so that explains a lot.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4386246,00.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113442325
Early Tuesday morning, the United States delivered its first direct shipment of food and medical supplies to the rebel Free Syrian Army, with some help from its representatives in Washington.
At about 5 a.m. Tuesday morning at an undisclosed location across Syria's northern border, a U.S. C-17 transport aircraft based out of Dover Air Force Base offloaded the first of what will be several shipments totaling $8 million in halal "Meals Ready to Eat" and combat medical packs called Warrior Aid and Litter Kits. Those supplies are marked with a note from the Syrian Support Group, the U.S. government's implementing partner, which coordinated the logistics for the transfer to the FSA.
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/05/01/us_delivers_first_aid_shipment_to_free_syrian_army
as to false accusations those are self evident in this thread
oberliner
(58,724 posts)One article in the London Times is all that is needed, huh?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Can you provide a link?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)now will you deny that Qatar is allied with both the US and Hamas?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Did you not read your own article?
"In April, the London Times reported that Hamas, which terminated ties with the Assad regime, began training the Free Syrian Army rebels in Damascus."
Source: Your "Ynet" link.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)at least when you find them embarrassing ?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)The military wing of Hamas has upped its support for Syrian rebels fighting to topple President Bashar Assad and is now providing training.
Prior, Hamas was offering only support and assistance, but had held back from tapping its military forces, Ynet reported. But Friday, various media outlets reported that Hamas had completely severed ties with Mr. Assad and had sent military experts to Damascus to train the Syrian opposition, the Free Syrian Army. The group is now friends with Qater, Ynet reported.
The discovery is significant because Hamas — when conflict broke out two years ago — once stood firm in Mr. Assad’s camp, along with Hezbollah and Iran, Ynet reported. Members of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades have been sent to eastern Damascus to conduct the training.
Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/5/hamas-cuts-ties-assad-and-sends-military-train-reb/#ixzz2UowVjCh2
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter
now are you going cast innuendo on this too?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)from the bad ones in the opposition...perhaps you could help the administration figure it out. But when you have a US senator looking to get arms sent and winds up getting photographed with a kidnapper, it seems it's not so easy to tell them apart. My feelings are to stay completely out of it...we have no guarantee that once we give arms, they wont turn them against us in the future. Isn't that what so many people here preach? That we shouldn't pretend we can always help and mostly wind up hurting? Meeting a Syrian Christian woman last summer showed me how incredibly complicated the situation is (her family had fled to both Lebanon and the US as al Assad apparently always protected the minorities and she claimed the opposition only wants a fundamentalist Islamic society..she also hoped the US would stay out of it although she had nothing bad to say about the US - just that there was a real reason to think more arms would make it worse).
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but you seem to have no problem with so are they okay by you when training Arabs to kill other Arabs? Is that the case?
and it's so good that you realize this is a complicated situation my hand to you on that one
BTW you once again it seems you resort to false accusations, why is that?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I absorb the information around me, consider the sources and go from there. That we disagree about conclusions means we're merely human with our own biases and I'll never make any apologies for that.
Speaking of false accusations, you seem to feel free to claim I don't care about Arab lives. The way I see it is that the far left complains when we do get involved and are now complaining we we dont. Personally, I don't see anything wrong in taking into consideration how this will effect the US in terms of blowback or whether it would be better for ALL Syrians if we send weapons. When I see women going backwards with their rights, I have no patience for those who claim other things are more important. Nothing is more important than making sure half the population can get educated and vote their interests. Education is the magic bullet. Does the opposition promise that?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)just keep telling yourself that however it seems that the stock answer for correcting faulty facts is accuse the one doing it of supporting this or that seems rather "you either fer us or agin us" IMO
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)tells me all I need to know. Thinking your "truth" is the only one that counts and everyone else is fooling themselves is quite the joke. Keep ignoring the women - they don't really count - it's doing wonders for the republicans also.
sabbat hunter
(6,827 posts)it is couldn't care less
GRAMMAR POLICE!!!
Sorry that one just bugs me.
But back to the topic, I don't think anyone here in this discussion believes that all citizens of Israel should have full and equal rights.
Isn't that really the issue at hand?
delrem
(9,688 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)incredibly ridiculous question is asking.
delrem
(9,688 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)You're calling it propaganda (hasbara in your roll-the-eyes language) that some people who are not Jewish would prefer to live in Israel than in Palestine. If you were a woman, you would know better. If you are, in fact, a woman, then you're nothing but a shill.
delrem
(9,688 posts)it's right in your post #33. But it does sound like you need your meds so I'll leave you alone now.