Haaretz exclusive: Organizer of Gaza flotilla sought assistance from Assad's office

[DUIC]

The organizer of one of the flotillas to the Gaza Strip sought assistance from the office of Syrian President Bashar Assad, requesting it facilitates their departure from the Syrian port at Latakia.

Ths request came to light through the disclosure of emailed correspondence between former British MP George Galloway, who heads an organization called Viva Palestina, and Bouthaina Shaaban, who serves as media adviser to Assad.

The correspondence, which was obtained by Haaretz, was leaked following an attack by the hacker group Anonymous.

Galloway, who is identified with the extreme left in Britain, served as a member of the British parliament until May 2010. A former member of the Labour Party, he was thrown out in 2003 in the wake of his attacks against party chairman and then-prime minister Tony Blair, and his opposition to the war in Iraq.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/haaretz-exclusive-organizer-of-gaza-flotilla-sought-assistance-from-assad-s-office-1.411556

Birds of a feather

[David__77]

1. So youre complimenting Assad?

Assad's biggest enemies had much more to do with that mission - especially turkey.

[oberliner]

2. Turkey had little to nothing to do with this mission

Viva Palestina was not affiliated with Turkey.

[azurnoir]

3. 'Scintillating' if rather old news as this correspondence is from the period 8/10-10/10

The flotilla ultimately sailed from Latakia on October 18, 2010 and arrived in Al Arish three days later, and from there continued in a land-based convoy comprising dozens of vehicles and hundreds of activists to the Gaza Strip. The entry into Gaza by Galloway and 16 others was denied by the Egyptian security services, although the convoy itself was permitted to enter following talks between the Egyptian and Syrian governments.

now the Haaretz article also mentions this juicy morsel

In July 2011, at a time when Assad was perpetrating massacres of his own people, Galloway was interviewed on Hezbollah's al-Manar network, where he heaped praises on the Syrian president. "Bashar Assad wants reform and change, to realize the aspirations of his people," he said in the interview, which was quoted in the official Syrian news agency Sana. "They are trying to pressure Syria and President Assad because of the good things that he did, such as supporting Palestinian and Lebanese resistance and rejecting to surrender to Israel

however here is an interview on British TV from June of 2011 where his words about Assad are a bit less supportive

[DUIC]

9. Shows how duplictous Galloway actually is

Thanks for sharing the video. It clearly shows the difference between what Galloway says to Western audiences and what he actually believes and does.

[azurnoir]

11. Do you have a link to the interview mwntiond in Haaretz

perhaps MEMRI has a copy?

[DUIC]

13. Some of Galloway's corresponsdence is in the original OP

Your Excellency Dr Bouthaina Shaaban
Special Advisor to President Bashar al Asad
President of the Syrian Arab Republic
Damascus
By e-mail
Your Excellency, dear Dr Shaaban

I hope this letter finds you well. Please be assured of my warmest fraternal greetings always. I am writing on behalf of Viva Palestina whose world-wide family of solidarity organisiations and registered charities will soon be setting out for beseiged Gaza again with our fifth convoy of aid. You will recall the outstanding assistance
afforded us in Syria on previous occasions over the last period. I am writing once again to ask for Syria's co-operation although I do not doubt it for one moment. Syria is as I have often said is the last castle of Arab dignity. My only regret is to have to ask for your help again.

This convoy sets out simulataneously on September 18th 2010 from London, from Casablanca and from the Gulf. The London and Gulf columns of vehicles would like to converge on Latakia and sail from there to Al Arish. The Casablanca column hopes to join us in Al Arish and we hope all three columns - hundreds of vehicles strong – will enter Gaza through Rafah without hinderance.

The aid on board the vehicles will be 50% medical equipment and 50% educational, construction and other aid.

The organisers of the convoy are Viva Palestina UK, Viva Palestina USA, Viva Palestina Arabia, Viva Palestina Malaysia, Viva Palestina Ireland, the Turkish NGO IHH,the International Committee to break the Seige on Gaza, Kia Ora - the Viva Palestina sister organisation in New Zealand, Viva Palestina Australia, Viva Palestina South Africa, Viva Palestina Spain, Viva Palestina Italia, and Viva Palestina France.

It is intended that the vehicles and passengers should sail to Al Arish on board the Mavi Marmara, which as you know is owned by IHH.

If His Excellency the President Bashar al Asad and his government can accept this proposal in principle perhaps you could nominate partner organisation(s) and individuals with whom my colleagues could liaise about the practical details? The liaison from our side would be Mr Kevin Ovenden and Mr Zaher Birawi of Viva Palestina UK (as we believe 2 is enough).

In any case please convey my respect and my admiration to His Excellency the President.

With all good wishes

George Galloway

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/haaretz-exclusive-organizer-of-gaza-flotilla-sought-assistance-from-assad-s-office-1.411556

[azurnoir]

17. yes that is the corresponsdence from 8/15/ 2010 but that is not what I asked about

and it is not really necessary to repost your own OP. I asked about the interview of July 2011 mentioned in your OP

[DUIC]

31. I could not find the al-manar footage

But, then again, I have no reason to doubt the veracity of Haaretz' coverage and do not think the video will shed any additional light on the OP.

[azurnoir]

35. Good enough

however it a single sentence given no context as to exactly what the question was, but the comment was a good excuse o kick your thread which had sunk and also allowed me o notice the group attack and accusations down thread so thank you

[King_David]

4. Gee who would be surprised at this ?

Human rights for all?

Nope... Only when The Jewish State is involved...Then it is important... Even if it means sleeping with the devil ...

[shira]

5. Surprised that Galloway supports vile and extreme rightwing regimes...

...and is therefore a shill for extreme rightwingery? That Galloway? He was a shill for Iranian PRESS-TV for a good while too, never ever wanting to criticize that regime.

Not even Galloway's fellow leftwing nutty comrades who support the most batshit insane totalitarian rightwingery on the planet aren't surprised. They're with Galloway all the way. He's so totally awesome. Chavez and Putin (leftists) also love rightwing theocratic dictators like the Ayatollahs of Iran.

[provis99]

6. so humanitarian flotillas are just like Syrian dictators?

[King_David]

7. humanitarian ?

Ha Ha Ha

[provis99]

8. I guess Arabs are all murderers, to your bigoted thinking.

[shira]

10. No, not at all. But the most insanely extreme theocratic rightwingers of the Arab world...

...were on the "humanitarian" flotilla.



The same flotilla where Turkish rightwing, hateful extremists were beating the hell out of the IDF. It's all on video. And the so-called "Left" has done nothing but defend and support these batshit insane rightwingers. Despite video evidence not only of the beatings, but also Islamist calls to kill Jews, Jews are like cockroaches, etc...

Maybe instead of supporting, defending, and enabling some of the most vile rightwingers on the planet, the "Left" should concentrate more on empowering, supporting and defending real liberals in Turkey and throughout the mideast. Did you know they actually exist? Or did you think all Arabs and Muslims were the same? These liberals are more left than the so-called "leftists" who support, enable, and defend the worst of the worst rightwingers. Why so-called "leftists" call themselves leftist is beyond me. They're rightwingers. They should admit it.

[azurnoir]

12. which of the "worst Arab theocrats" were on the flotilla?

and were they the ones who as you claim

The same flotilla where Turkish rightwing, hateful extremists were beating the hell out of the IDF. It's all on video. And the so-called "Left" has done nothing but defend and support these batshit insane rightwingers. Despite video evidence not only of the beatings, but also Islamist calls to kill Jews, Jews are like cockroaches, etc...

but nine dead most of whom were shot in the head execution style mean nothing or will you simply use this as an excuse to post yet another video from PMW? the organization founded by an Israeli settler who was a major contributor to the film Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West. which was used in attempt to smear Obama during the 2008 presidential election? or what source will you use it should be interesting

[shira]

14. And once again you have no response other than trying to divert attention....

...onto Israel and "rightwingers". Of course, any Leftist who supports and defends the most rightwing regimes of the mideast are far more to the Right than just about any secular rightwinger in America. Look, if you have evidence PMW just makes up shit and dishonestly goes public with their videos, by all means please show us why PMW has no credibility. Obviously, they have credibility since the EU and USA put enough pressure on the PLO to fire their Mufti in recent weeks. The only evidence of the Mufti calling for the killing of Jews was a PMW video.

And I can't let you get away with "most who were shot in the head execution style". What are your sources for this, other than extreme rightwingers in Turkey or their enablers who were on the flotilla? Right, nothing.

As for one of the worst Arab theocrats on the flotilla, look up Raed Salah. Leftists would rather defend and enable him than condemn him for his extreme rightwingery.

[azurnoir]

18. Talk about diversions

but lets go with it first this gem

The only evidence of the Mufti calling for the killing of Jews was a PMW video

well gee was there a guy from PMW at the rally recording it? Must be a brave soul indeed eh, seeing as how according to you the MUfti was calling for the killing of every Jew on earth was this person in disguise a burqa perhaps? Or did PMW get the video that according to you was the "only evidence" from somewhere else, somewhere freely available to anyone? It was PMW that made the words into an international controversy however the hadith is an end time prophesy and the Mufti claims it was quoted as such but never mind that it really doesn't work when viewed that way now as to the PLO firing him I could find nothing about that what i did find was that Israel was opening a criminal investigation of him oh BTW while we're on the subject of religious leaders calling for killing how's Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro doing these days?

now as to what happened on the Mavi Mamara no the survivors are obviously lying is that your claim or only the ones who say what happened

eta you never did say which of the worst Arab theocrats was on the Mamara was it the Mufti because that is who you launched into a tirade against

[shira]

26. Your posts just get sillier over time...

well gee was there a guy from PMW at the rally recording it? Must be a brave soul indeed eh, seeing as how according to you the MUfti was calling for the killing of every Jew on earth was this person in disguise a burqa perhaps?Or did PMW get the video that according to you was the "only evidence" from somewhere else, somewhere freely available to anyone?

PMW makes these videos available because they actually monitor and record PA/Hamas media safely from their headquarters. None of their representatives were there. Try again.

now as to the PLO firing him I could find nothing about that what i did find was that Israel was opening a criminal investigation of him

http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=26659

oh BTW while we're on the subject of religious leaders calling for killing how's Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro doing these days?

Complete nutcase calling for the killing of any gentile (not just Arabs). Of course he wasn't handpicked like Abbas' Mufti. Also, Israel made KACH (Kahane, etc.) illegal years ago.

now as to what happened on the Mavi Mamara no the survivors are obviously lying is that your claim or only the ones who say what happened

You're going by "rightwing" Turkish sources that reported this. Got anything else? Two can play at this game.

eta you never did say which of the worst Arab theocrats was on the Mamara was it the Mufti because that is who you launched into a tirade against

I wrote that in the last line of the last post addressed to you. Look up Raed Salah.

============

Lastly, I'll note once again your lack of condemnation for the content in those PMW videos, for the Marmara rightwingers singing death to the Jews, Machsom Watch, etc. Just excuses and diversions. Never a full throated condemnation. Somehow you find your voice WRT anything Israelis do or didn't do. Not so much the anti-Israel crowd for doing/saying things 100x worse. Why is that?

[azurnoir]

36. yep diversion it started when the OP was shown to old news

so quick lets switch to Mavi Marama and 'righteous' killing of civilian activists by IDF which I must conclude is a treasured moment by some here?

except that the Palmer commission found Israel used excessive force although it found the blockade which mostly affects civilians to be legal

[pelsar]

15. most of whom were shot in the head execution style mean nothing

actually it means the IDF commandos shooting in the night on a moving boat while under pressure are very good shots....and clearly hit their intended targets with no mistakes.

theres a moral here, that might escape you: its never a good idea to attack commandos, chances are very good, you'll end up on the losing side

[holdencaufield]

16. It's amazing to me...

That there are only two reactions to Jews fighting back -- surprise or disgust.

[azurnoir]

19. so boarding a ship in international waters and killing people is your defination of "fighting back"

thanks I could not have asked for better

[holdencaufield]

20. Boarding a ship...

... running a LEGAL naval blockade is an act of law enforcement -- attacking law enforcement is an act of violence.

Do you not understand the difference?

[azurnoir]

21. so you approve of the killings on the Mavi Mamara ? n/t

[holdencaufield]

22. Do you approve...

... of over "peace activists" attacking and seriously injuring soldiers engaged in a legal search with pipes and knives?

I agree that if law enforcement officers of ANY country are faced with a deadly threat, they are entitled and justified to respond with deadly force.

So, yes -- I do approve of the IDF use of deadly force in this circumstance.

The "peace activists" of the Mavi Mamara deliberately provoke an incident precisely to get this type of response -- they should be over-joyed. I have noticed that subsequent attempt to run the blockade have been remarkably cooperative with Israeli authorities.

[azurnoir]

23. the soldiers helicopter dropped onto the ship under cover of darkness firing

depending on which story you believe either automatic weapons or paintballs filled with glass shards which were quickly switched off for automatic weapons and met with people welding sticks and kitchen utensils and now you claim that the activists were overjoyed at the deaths? Well I believe that just who is overjoyed at the killings of Muslims has been revealed in this exchange

[pelsar]

24. did you get that story out of "fairy tales" for needy?

Last edited Thu Feb 9, 2012, 06:01 AM - Edit history (2)

the imaginative use of words to provide half a story is your 'stock in trade" and its shows itself here once again

btw this whole "anti arab" anti muslim" race card thing of yours is getting rather old, i suppose it serves an emotional purpose for people who don't know any better and have little knowledge of the events and have trouble putting forth an argument based on the real events and facts, but in a discussion its only purpose is an attempt to shut down the discussion

FUN TIME: so they were firing automatic weapons, as per one of your options, as they descended by rope which requires two hands.... So once again we are face with the israeli super soldier (wish my kids were this talented) that can hold and shoot an automatic weapon (change magazines too?) while roping down from a helicopter that requires two hands.

can i get a description of what exactly is holding, aiming and shooting the gun on automatic as they descend?
comeon...you can do it, at least try....oh and don't forget how superhuman accurate they are since they shot everyone in the head, while roping down a moving helicopter, on a swinging rope while the boat is moving up and down, forward and sideways...at night, with no hands

is that an accurate description of the scene as per the versions you are promoting?

[shira]

28. Pelsar, not even video evidence of the IDF using 2 hands to rappel down from helicopters....

...will be enough evidence for anyone dedicated fulltime and every single day to demonizing the IDF.

[azurnoir]

32. oh gosh they used 2 hands but how many IDF died on the Mamara? How many Turkish and American?

and how were they killed?

[shira]

38. Slow down there. What happened to yr claim WRT the IDF shooting peaceniks from those ropes? n/t

[holdencaufield]

25. OMG! A helipcopter?

They didn't just swim out to the ship? How dare those Israelis use 20th century technology. Of course they dropped from the helicopter -- did the ship have a helipad?

Did you not see the video -- I'm not sure what this who "cover of darkness" thing is about -- every man and woman on the ship knew the IDF had arrived, knew they were coming aboard, and consciously decided to try and kill them -- with steel pipes and butcher knives and even firearms taken from the soldiers.

I am certainly not over-joyed by anyone's death, regardless of their faith (except for Methodists -- they know what they did). However, if you try to bash in the skull of or stab an armed soldier engaged in his duties -- it's not the soldier that kills you, it's Darwin.

[azurnoir]

33. hmmm how many IDF died on the Mamara? how many Turkish and American citizens died?

and you give a thumbs up to the deaths of Muslims and falsely accuse me of approving of the deaths of Israelis even though there were ah how many again ........

[shira]

27. Azurnoir, please answer Holden's question w/o throwing more BS accusations around...

Do you approve...

... of "peace activists" attacking and seriously injuring soldiers engaged in a legal search with pipes and knives?

Or is this yet another time over many years at I/P on DU, perhaps example #2457 by now, that you'll refuse to answer a question asked of you and choose to divert with another red herring?

[holdencaufield]

29. Rhetorical Question

Of course he approves of killing Israelis.

[azurnoir]

34. do I approve of activist defending themselves is that what you want to know?

under the circumstances no because it gave IDF the excuse it needed to open fire with live ammunition, in fact I can not approve of activists defending themselves against a forc that will use deadly force at any provocation such as IDF

there does that answer your question

[shira]

37. LOL! What were they defending themselves from? The other boats peacefully obliged...

...and had no problem letting IDF troops onboard to carry out their legal duties.

Once again you can't answer a question directly. This time in order to pretend you answered, you had to interject some BS excuse in order to explain away the actions of hard rightwing Turkish extremists who support Hamas and all they do 100%. You're just digging yourself deeper.

[azurnoir]

39. From this

No warning was given; we were in international waters…
They started firing live bullets onto the deck…

"As soon as they started approaching tear gas was fired and sound bombs were dropped on the deck… No warning was given, we were in international waters. …a helicopter arrived and started firing rubber bullets down on us. …they started firing live bullets onto the deck. …some were bleeding profusely. ...plastic straps were tied around our wrists. We were kept in that position until Tuesday… People weren't allowed to eat, drink… we thought we'd been kidnapped."

Ismail Patel
British citizen
The 47-year-old optician from Oadby, UK
www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk

http://www.sehitfurkandogan.com/eyewitness_accounts.html

[shira]

40. Wait, are these the same witnesses claiming...

...IDF soldiers were rappelling down from helicopters with one hand while firing with the other?

With witnesses like that....



But worse, look at those videos of the IDF soldiers rappelling down. If the helicopter fired on that crowd of thugs, why didn't they disperse and run for their lives? Even better, why the hell would the IDF send down defenseless IDF soldiers, presumably after firing on a rowdy crowd? The superhuman IDF must be just as lousy protecting the lives of their fellow soldiers as they are when they're shooting Palestinian children right between the eyes pointblank for no reason other than the IDF is pure evil incarnate.

[azurnoir]

41. no shira the claim was the gun fire was coming from choppers

and are we to believe that IDF allowed their comrades to lower themselves into a crowd of hostile Muslims without providing cover fire for them?

as to my comment of course it was reduced to the simplest form in of course a self serving manner

[pelsar]

42. confusing stories....

Last edited Sat Feb 11, 2012, 05:06 AM - Edit history (1)

....i thought you claimed that they were firing automatic fire (real bullets)..and only five were dead shot in the head? i'm confused, so were the dead killed in the beginning or did the "helicopter machine gunner(s)" miss everybody and only when the commandos landed did they start getting killed by the commandos?

you should choose just a few witnesses, too many conflicting stories coming out from your posts
(which btw is quite natural for such a situation)

but this is the part that is really not confusing:
as far as "excuses' to kill...its part of our Rules of Engagement for combat soldiers, A3: its states:
when given the slightest excuse to fire deadly rounds in the face of any muslim, anywhere you are free to engage, automatic fire being the preferred method.

you may feel free to quote me anytime anywhere if someone gives you any grief about what you wrote.

but this is where, you have to avoid the facts to keep to your version: the other boats had no violence, had the commandos roped down with intentions of killing mulims, the number would have easily been a lot higher. Hence clearly the dynamic was very different.

"non violent humanitarians" if they want to claim such, should stick religiously to it....playing with fire against commandos is never very smart, one should not try to confuse them with games "what is and what isn't "non violence-the commandos make that decision and they decide in less then a second and always on the side that protects themselves and their mission...those who are "playing with them' are not the priority.

[Ruby the Liberal]

43. You may want to note that as sarcasm.

Tempers have been flaring.

[azurnoir]

50. Really? I thought his post quite imaginative n/t

[holdencaufield]

48. The committee has voted...

... and for divulging Zionist secrets in front of the goyim, you will get no coffee cake at the next THREE Zionist Conspiracy meetings.

We hope you have learned your lesson.

[shira]

44. Yeah, that claim is complete BS. Here's the video again...

What evidence do you see of any cover fire from choppers, either prior to or during the time the soldiers were rappelling down? Try to give a straight answer.

[azurnoir]

46. luved you that video so much you had to post it twice? however I'll take the word of the victims

generally that is how its done well except when the victims are Muslim and perps are IDF, no I do not see it but then again you do not see the helicopters either also Israel had possession almost of all video evidence didn't they?

do you think they released it all? or only what suited need and storyline?

[holdencaufield]

49. Good for you...

Never let EVIDENCE get in the way of a good conviction.

[azurnoir]

51. you like the word of people who were the victims? my never noes

can't have that

[shira]

52. So IOW, you'll keep believing the worst about the IDF despite video evidence...

...that turns 'eyewitness' reports on their head.

The same eyewitnesses who had no idea these extreme rightwing Turks on the Marmara were invoking the death of Jews while on the ship...

Now imagine the fun you'd have if your opponents here were constantly denying, dismissing or explaining away clear video evidence of Israeli wrongdoing. You'd think that was hysterical, now wouldn't you? You'd never let your opponents live that down, would you? You're on the opposite end of the joke, Azurnoir.

Stop digging yourself deeper, okay? Well, OTOH, screw that advice. Please keep it up!

[DUIC]

53. Reminds me of "eyewitness testimony" of people who were never there

The "Jenin Massacre" that never was turned out to be one of my earliest introduction to professional victims, who flit about from scene to scene, covered in bandages and extolling the evils of Israeli Defense Forces that they never actually came into contact with. These "flotilla eyewitnesses" sounds like more of the same.

[azurnoir]

55. I was wondering when you'd get around to posting that video you did so many times on DU2

however IMO there is nothing to explain away 9 dead Muslim zero dead Israelis is explanation enough

the Palmer report claimed that blockade of civilian supplies to Gaza was legal as long as the claim "but its just for weapons" is being made, however it also found Israel used excessive force in its execution of the boarding of the Mamara and that can't stand can it? no Israel did no wrong

[shira]

56. That video goes to show how your eyewitness accounts are crap...

Not only does the first video (IDF rappelling down) show there was no 'cover fire' coming from the choppers, but the 2nd video (of psychotic rightwing antisemitic bigots) goes to show that the other supposedly leftwing activists onboard the Marmara are nothing but supporters of extremely hateful rightwingery and they have no credibility whatsoever.

Here's another one. You'd think just one of those wonderful humanitarian leftists who were on the Marmara would denounce and condemn the following extreme rightwingery. But all they've done since May 2010 is support and provide cover for these extreme fundamentalist warmongering rightwingers.

Why should these extreme bigoted rightwingers (in the video below) stop doing what vile, psychotic rightwingers do when they have leftist friends who they trust to support and provide cover for them?

[azurnoir]

57. please shira keep going these vids get better and better

because almost 2 years on Israels boosters are still demonizing the dead both on the Mamara and those from OCL so yes provide more for us please and from your favorite source too
your are right you are proving something here

[pelsar]

60. i think i get it

basically if i am to understand you:

if one is defined as the 'victim" they can do no wrong. its kind of like blacks can't be guilty of racism.
everything else is irrelevant....
____

that defines your whole viewpoint doesn't it?

[shira]

62. Identity politics. The Palestinians are hardly the only victim group...

....that can do no wrong. Leftists won't criticize any behavior within the 3rd world as they're all victims, even the dictators in charge who massacre other 3rd world victims (take Sudan's leader as one extreme example, but also Gadaffi and Assad). Cuba, China, and N.Korea as well. Hamas and the PLO are victims too. When they abuse Palestinians (one victimized group of many), it doesn't matter to Leftists b/c Hamas and the PLO are victims.

There's no question whatsoever that's the Left's viewpoint. It's so obvious it's not even debatable, and not one of them will challenge it or condemn such a worldview.

The guilty perpetrators are always the West, the USA, Israel, the Jews, etc. They're blamed for all the bad in the 3rd world. Remnants of colonialism, current capitalist or zionist policies, etc.

It's pure bigotry, as all people are not held to the same standards or expectations. People's morality and criminal behavior is based primarily on the victim group they belong to. Universal human rights are only good for some, not all. Some are more human and more equal than others.

Rightwing humanitarianism at its finest.

[shira]

61. "Demonizing the dead". Please, please stop with the crocodile tears...

No one here buys that crap.

Tell me now, if the 9 dead Turks were really 9 batshit insane Arab hating loonytoon settlers hellbent on killing Arabs, and they were shot dead in their attempts, would your heart bleed for them?

Oh wait, I just asked you another direct question you'll never answer. Sorry...

[pelsar]

54. even better.....so now we have

a crowd of "muslims" getting shot by automatic machine gun fire while the israeli commandos descend from the helicopter and that same crowd is neither falling down from being hit with the machine gun fire nor are the moving away...

so what does logic tell us?
1) the machine gunners on the helicopters are really bad shots and can't hit anything from 30m away

2) the "muslims" are super human and as they get hit with 7.62 bullets (which normally would blow them backward while tearing off some parts), are not reacting

3) as the commandos came down, there was no "covering machine gun fire"

(there were probably noise bombs before the descent....but nothing while)
____

now for those who simply "believe" well, beliefs are never changed by logic, reality or anything else, all we can do is show how foolish they look believing something that logic dictates can't or didn't happen...there is no covering fire as the descent starts....

[azurnoir]

58. yes your imagination grows with each post n/t

[pelsar]

59. not really.....

one of us at least has a basic understanding the actual actions involved and one of us has zero experience in that world and clearly can't even imagine what it must be like, and hasn't a clue....and yet believes that they somehow "know"

amazing isn't it?....how someone with zero knowledge of anything involved can somehow believe that they have absolute knowledge of what happened

[oberliner]

45. Anyone ever catch Galloway's show on Press TV?

He's a character.

[DUIC]

47. In the same way that David Icke is

Yes, he is a character.