I'll ask this only once: What has Israel ever done to us?

[shira]

Eamon Gilmore has stressed how Ireland and China want to strengthen their economic, trade and education ties and how "person to person" interaction between the two countries – such as exchange students – does much to foster better relations all round.

And who can argue with any of that?

Well, defenders of human rights can, one presumes. In an interview last week Gilmore looked decidedly uneasy as the elephant-in-the-room question was put to him regards doing business with China. An unelected regime, let us remember, which executes well over 2,000 of its own people every year and imprisons those who dare to speak against it. And let's not forget – oh, you already have? – China's occupation of Tibet where it's estimated over a million people have died as a result.

If Eamon Gilmore has repeatedly said he is against cultural boycotts (and he showed admirable support for the Israeli Film Festival last year in the face of thuggish intimidation), why does Labour Youth call Israel an "apartheid state" (an insult to all people who have suffered under one) and profess support for BDS (Boycotts, Divestment and Sanctions)?

"Duh", says everyone I speak to, "it's because of Palestine!"

Really?

I emailed queries to both the TUI and Labour Youth and, at time of writing, am awaiting a reply. There are, however, a few politicians who are not in the Bash-Israel brigade and I spoke to a couple this week, just to reassure myself that I wasn't completely bonkers.

Disturbingly, the truth is that a study conducted in May 2011 revealed that, of those Irish citizens questioned, over 1/5th would deny citizenship to Israelis, with 11.5 per cent stating they would deny Irish citizenship to all Jews, and less than 60 per cent saying they would accept a Jewish person into their family.

Bloody hell – what did the Jews ever do to us? As I said, answers on a postcard please.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/carol-hunt/ill-ask-this-only-once-what-has-israel-ever-done-to-us-29470834.html

[Socal31]

1. Oh man.

I'm gunna grab my lawnchair, brb.

[TheCowsCameHome]

2. Shove over.

It's gonna get crowded.

[boomer55]

3. Here's a log for the fire

http://www.gtr5.com/. USS Liberty

[shira]

4. Debunked here...

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/declass/uss_liberty/recordings.shtml

[MarkLaw]

6. How is that debunked??? Here are facts recently declassified by Israel

Two diplomatic cables written by Avraham Harman, Israel's ambassador in Washington, to Abba Eban Israel's minister of foreign affairs, have been declassified by Israel and obtained from the Israel State Archive. The first cable, sent five days after the attack, informs Eban that a U.S. informant told him (Harman) that there was "clear proof that from a certain stage the pilot discovered the identity of the ship and continued the attack anyway."[97] The second cable, sent three days later, added that the White House is "very angry" because "the Americans probably have findings showing that our pilots indeed knew that the ship was American."[6]

The Israeli diplomatic cables appear to confirm the existence of the NSA tapes in which an Israeli pilot identifies the USS Liberty as an American vessel, radios his base informing the base of this fact, and is ordered to continue the attack anyway.[6]

[pelsar]

9. actually you dont need "cables......

its pretty simple if you have any knowledge of the military in combat...if you do, then your first question would be why did the IAF use fighters that were equipped with air to air missiles and 20mm and nothing that could actually sink a ship?

The "turn around time" for an israeli fighter to reequip and arm was about 5 minutes so, that was not the problem. All they had to do was drop a few 500lb bombs and the ship would have disappeared in seconds.

that is why we know it was nothing more than a "target of opportunity" for the pilots.......which means no preplanning and subject to mistakes.
________________

[MarkLaw]

11. Unfortunately for you, there are cables and israel admitted it was preplanned.

Good luck with your mission.

[pelsar]

13. actually israel didn't.....

apparently you have some additional research to do.....but i doubt you will do it, since you really would not want to know.

btw do you have any knowledge at all on combat matters? what actually happens in combat or are you one of those arm chair generals.....
___

in the real world, actual events take precedent over what politicians say...or do you actually believe what politicans say? (this you could answer, as it would be fun to read.....)

____


and this is hilarious...i went looking for those "cables" and came across this: (probably one of your sources)
Forslund said he clearly recalled “the obvious frustration of the controller over the inability of the pilots to sink the target quickly and completely.”
“He kept insisting the mission had to sink the target, and was frustrated with the pilots’ responses that it didn’t sink.”

one of israels most experience pilots (Yiftah Spector,) couldnt understand why they couldnt sink a ship using 30mm?.....either he is one israelis dumbest aces or Forsland just made the whole thing up

[MarkLaw]

14. israel released the cables. LAVON AFFAIR is another instance of terrorism funded by the right wing

israeli governmnet.

Dispute the cables released by israel, or stop responding. You aren't presenting any evidence to the contrary. Like most shills you descend to using rude insults and obfuscations in the hopes that people don't notice your attempt to change history!

---------Two diplomatic cables written by Avraham Harman, Israel's ambassador in Washington, to Abba Eban Israel's minister of foreign affairs, have been declassified by Israel and obtained from the Israel State Archive. The first cable, sent five days after the attack, informs Eban that a U.S. informant told him (Harman) that there was "clear proof that from a certain stage the pilot discovered the identity of the ship and continued the attack anyway." The second cable, sent three days later, added that the White House is "very angry" because "the Americans probably have findings showing that our pilots indeed knew that the ship was American."

The Israeli diplomatic cables appear to confirm the existence of the NSA tapes in which an Israeli pilot identifies the USS Liberty as an American vessel, radios his base informing the base of this fact, and is ordered to continue the attack anyway.----------------

[oberliner]

15. Israel had a left wing goverment during the Lavon Affair

Mr. Lavon himself was a member of the Mapai party, which was a left-wing/socialist political party. The PM of Israel was also a member of the same left-wing party at the time.

[MarkLaw]

43. Neo conservative policy makes him a Neo-con

[oberliner]

50. Neo conservative policy in 1954?

How is that even possible? The concept didn't even exist at that point.

[MarkLaw]

51. Neo Conservativism is as old as humanity. It's a new term for an old worldview.

[oberliner]

52. OK - but the Israeli government was leftist

If you look at their policies it was much closer to Socialism at that time.

[shira]

55. The neo-cons call for democracy no matter what...

You'll find Israel was against Palestinian elections in 2005 and Egyptian in 2012.

Your anti-Israel comrades are better neo-cons than Israel's Likudniks. They believe elections of ultra-conservative, fascist, theocratic dictators (new boss worse than the old) is beneficial to the region.

[pelsar]

18. actually i'm simply presenting the logic...

Last edited Wed Aug 14, 2013, 03:50 PM - Edit history (1)

the cables and the various memories of people seem to contradict one another...which in fact is standard when a single incident happens and different people with different perspectives attempt to explain it

and from one of the sources:
Indeed, the declassified documents state that no recordings of the "actual attack" exist, raising questions about the source of the transcripts recalled by Forslund, Gotcher, Block, Porter, Lang and Kirby.

but what apperently everyone agrees upon is that of the 4 jets, not a single one had anythiing that would sink the ship in minutes...like bombs.

so whats your theory that israel sent out 4 jets to sink the american ship on a preplanned mission yet did not even bother to load the planes with the armanents that would actually sink the ship?

well?...at least try to answer the question.....

oh and btw, you forgot to answer..you dont believe politicians lie? and never on the international level?
____

lets see that "internet bravery" and try to answer the two simple questions.
even I dont know, will work, admitting ignorance is not a bad thing, its the first step toward getting educated

[MarkLaw]

44. What isn't contradicted is the death of 34 soldiers and

If your ally KNOWS you attacked them you apologize and placate them if YOU DEPEND ON THEIR SUPPORT to survive.

"Israeli authorities subsequently apologized for the incident, but few in Washington could believe that the ship had not been identified as an American naval vessel. Later, an interim intelligence memorandum concluded the attack was a mistake and not made in malice against the U.S. . . .

I had no role in the board of inquiry that followed, or the board's finding that there could be no doubt that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty. I have yet to understand why it was felt necessary to attack this ship or who ordered the attack."

Richard Helms, then-Director of Central Intelligence (CIA Director)


As for restitution

Each year, some $3 billion goes to Israel free of charge. Israel only paid a paltry $6.7 million in restitution to the injured sailors and the families of those killed in the attack, and another $6 million for the loss of the $40 million Liberty that sold for only $101,666 in 1970.

You can't really claim restitution was made. U.S. taxpayers partially funded the attack on the U.S.S. liberty by using U.S. taxpayer dollars to subsidize the Israeli military.

Taxpayers got ripped off, once again!

[pelsar]

59. questions too tough for you?

yes the sailors were killed, the ship was attacked.....there is no dispute there.

I simply asked for your theory as to why 4 jets sent out on a very sensitive mission did not even take the necessary equipment to carry it out?....

apparently its has confused you, you cannot think of any kind of logical answer and you figure its best to just ignore it and stick with your belief....no surprise, believes are all the same all across the globe
_________

quoting politicians for "proof"?.....i guess you do believe that politicians dont lie and not on the international level.
_____
and for the cherry on top, since you like quotes:
....I have yet to understand why it was felt necessary to attack this ship or who ordered the attack."
Richard Helms, then-Director of Central Intelligence (CIA Director)

so the director of the CIA, an intelligence expert, a head of the most advanced intelligence agency in the world can't figure out why israel would attack their ship.....and you still believe it was deliberate, yet no one can figure out why?

[shira]

39. There were lots of screw-ups happening that day

The ship wasn't supposed to be there, Israelis concluded it must've been a warship considering its speed, etc...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

It's likely that even if a pilot ID'd an American flag and reported it to base, the commander in charge making the orders was still led to believe it was an enemy warship, falsely portraying itself as Western.

[Shaktimaan]

8. Soooo...

When carol hunt of Ireland asks her countrymen "what's Israel ever done to us?" You respond with a link about how Israel once (several decades ago), and while fighting a full scale war for its survival on five fronts, managed to damage a US navy vessel and kill 30+ of its crewmen. (Before rescuing the entire remainder, apologizing, and undergoing a score of investigations that consistently upheld their version of events; ie: mistaken identity/friendly fire.)

So again, the question as posed to IRELAND remains, "what's Israel ever done to us?"

[MarkLaw]

12. Have you ever heard of RACHEL CORRIE? She was an Irish citizen run over by and IDF driven bulldozer.

She was murdered by the Israeli defense forces. They even later joked about it.

?w=547&h=833

http://citizenactionmonitor.wordpress.com/2013/07/20/contemptuous-israeli-rabbi-disses-public-tweets-of-revulsion-over-facebook-photos-of-rachel-corrie-pancakes/

Like the Palestinians the Irish were occupied by a country(britain) that had tried to wipe them out(genocide). They feel a brotherhood with the Palestinians.

The Irish fought back and kept most of their land. The fact that there is still a Royal presence in Ireland today ties the Irish deeper to the Palestinian cause.

The fact that the original article mentions none of this just shows how biased it is.

So maybe now you understand why the Irish aren't fond of the occupation of Palestine.

[oberliner]

16. Rachel Corrie was an Irish citizen?

That's odd, I could've sworn she was an American citizen.

[MarkLaw]

20. My mistake.You are correct. The cause of Rachel Corrie and her death largely influenced Irish human

rights activists at the time. The cultural similarities between the Palestinian cause and the Irish struggle against British occupation created great sympathy for the Palestinian people.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2003/09/death-rachel-corrie

Just before five o'clock, one of the D9s rumbled lazily toward a high cinder-block wall near Nasrallah's house. Corrie swiftly positioned herself between the wall and the bulldozer, then about 30 yards from her. Crouching on the earth, almost like a supplicant in prayer, she placed her right foot behind her left and rested her right knee on the ground. Looking toward the bulletproof windows, she could probably see the silhouettes of two Israeli operators. The steel blade began pushing a huge pile of debris and sandy soil toward her, so close that the scent of the moist earth permeated her nostrils. The ground began to shift beneath her feet. Tom Dale was standing a few yards from Corrie as the bulldozer got close. "The bulldozer built up earth in front of it. Its blade was slightly dug into the earth," he told me. "She began to stand up. The earth was pushed over her feet. She tried to climb on top of the earth, to avoid being overwhelmed. She climbed to the point where her shoulders were above the top lip of the blade. She was standing on this pile of earth. As the bulldozer continued, she lost her footing, and she turned and fell down this pile of earth. Then it seemed like she got her foot caught under the blade. She was helpless, pushed prostrate, and looked absolutely panicked, with her arms out, and the earth was piling itself over her. The bulldozer continued so that the place where she fell down was directly beneath the cockpit. I think she would have been between the treads. The whole [incident] took place in about six or seven seconds."

[oberliner]

29. Can I ask a question about your profile?

You write that your hometown is: Union of North American Fascists.

What do you mean by that?

[MarkLaw]

34. The revolving door between D.C. and Banks/Corp. Get voted, collect lobby$, retire at corp job.

Plenty of policy is written by lobbyists. Corporate interests are prioritized over the needs of the general public.
Wages have largely decreased while inflation has increased drastically.

The banks profited from a collapse they designed.

That's what that means


The title message continues into country.

[oberliner]

35. Got it

Thanks for the explanation - now that I see the continuation of the title, it makes more sense.

[shira]

17. Weak evasion. You now concede you're wrong about the USS Liberty attack? n/t

[MarkLaw]

21. No, on this occasion israels documentation provides your answer

---------Two diplomatic cables written by Avraham Harman, Israel's ambassador in Washington, to Abba Eban Israel's minister of foreign affairs, have been declassified by Israel and obtained from the Israel State Archive. The first cable, sent five days after the attack, informs Eban that a U.S. informant told him (Harman) that there was "clear proof that from a certain stage the pilot discovered the identity of the ship and continued the attack anyway." The second cable, sent three days later, added that the White House is "very angry" because "the Americans probably have findings showing that our pilots indeed knew that the ship was American."

The Israeli diplomatic cables appear to confirm the existence of the NSA tapes in which an Israeli pilot identifies the USS Liberty as an American vessel, radios his base informing the base of this fact, and is ordered to continue the attack anyway.----------------

[shira]

25. So why didn't they finish the job and sink the Liberty? Why send help to rescue.....

....why officially apologize and then pay millions of dollars in restitution?

[MarkLaw]

26. Are you asking me why israel would do the right thing?

If your ally KNOWS you attacked them you apologize and placate them if YOU DEPEND ON THEIR SUPPORT to survive.

"Israeli authorities subsequently apologized for the incident, but few in Washington could believe that the ship had not been identified as an American naval vessel. Later, an interim intelligence memorandum concluded the attack was a mistake and not made in malice against the U.S. . . .

I had no role in the board of inquiry that followed, or the board's finding that there could be no doubt that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty. I have yet to understand why it was felt necessary to attack this ship or who ordered the attack."

Richard Helms, then-Director of Central Intelligence (CIA Director)


As for restitution

Each year, some $3 billion goes to Israel free of charge. Israel only paid a paltry $6.7 million in restitution to the injured sailors and the families of those killed in the attack, and another $6 million for the loss of the $40 million Liberty that sold for only $101,666 in 1970.

You can't really claim restitution was made. U.S. taxpayers partially funded the attack on the U.S.S. liberty by using U.S. taxpayer dollars to subsidize the Israeli military.

Taxpayers got ripped off, once again!

[shira]

28. The problem is there's no motive for such an intentional attack

Israel's offer to assist in the rescue of the survivors - and not sink the Liberty - speaks to intent as well.

[oberliner]

30. It's amazing that this is still a popular topic of conversation in some corners

There used to be some Liberty regulars who would bring it up frequently.

[MarkLaw]

31. Israel didn't want the U.S. to pick up their military communications, so they attacked.

Apparently Defense Minister Moshe Dayan thought the benefit outweighed the cost.

[shira]

33. Oh, so you'd say the order was to damage but not sink the Liberty? n/t

[MarkLaw]

36. Because of the attack 34 sailors died and 173 were wounded out of a crew of 297.

Too bad Dayan's dead, you'd have to ask him the wording he used.


It's creepy that a research center devoted to Middle Eastern studies was named after him.

Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and African Studies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Dayan_Center_for_Middle_Eastern_and_African_Studies

[shira]

37. Your story doesn't add up. It simply doesn't make sense.

It's pretty obvious Israel screwed up, realized it, and wanted to assist in the rescue immediately following once they realized they screwed up.

They were, after all, involved in a MAJOR regional war, fighting for their existence against enemies dedicated to their destruction. The Holocaust had just occured 25 years prior and that's what their enemies' goal was.

[MarkLaw]

47. It isn't my story, its Israels explanation

---------Two diplomatic cables written by Avraham Harman, Israel's ambassador in Washington, to Abba Eban Israel's minister of foreign affairs, have been declassified by Israel and obtained from the Israel State Archive. The first cable, sent five days after the attack, informs Eban that a U.S. informant told him (Harman) that there was "clear proof that from a certain stage the pilot discovered the identity of the ship and continued the attack anyway." The second cable, sent three days later, added that the White House is "very angry" because "the Americans probably have findings showing that our pilots indeed knew that the ship was American."

The Israeli diplomatic cables appear to confirm the existence of the NSA tapes in which an Israeli pilot identifies the USS Liberty as an American vessel, radios his base informing the base of this fact, and is ordered to continue the attack anyway.----------------


If your ally KNOWS you attacked them you apologize and placate them if YOU DEPEND ON THEIR SUPPORT to survive.

"Israeli authorities subsequently apologized for the incident, but few in Washington could believe that the ship had not been identified as an American naval vessel. Later, an interim intelligence memorandum concluded the attack was a mistake and not made in malice against the U.S. . . .

I had no role in the board of inquiry that followed, or the board's finding that there could be no doubt that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty. I have yet to understand why it was felt necessary to attack this ship or who ordered the attack."

Richard Helms, then-Director of Central Intelligence (CIA Director)


As for restitution

Each year, some $3 billion goes to Israel free of charge. Israel only paid a paltry $6.7 million in restitution to the injured sailors and the families of those killed in the attack, and another $6 million for the loss of the $40 million Liberty that sold for only $101,666 in 1970.

You can't really claim restitution was made. U.S. taxpayers partially funded the attack on the U.S.S. liberty by using U.S. taxpayer dollars to subsidize the Israeli military.

Taxpayers got ripped off, once again!

"They were, after all, involved in a MAJOR regional war, fighting for their existence against enemies dedicated to their destruction. The Holocaust had just occured 25 years prior and that's what their enemies' goal was."

The Holocaust was disgusting. Millions of Gypsies, Jews, Gays, Political dissidents and intellectuals were killed.
What happened in Europe was tragic, but no reason or justification to repeat the Holocaust in Palestine.
Other people are suffering from Racist policies in Israel, not just Palestinians.

Research on productive trafficking indicates that"...there is a deliberate targeting of these women." The birth rate in the Ethiopian community in Israel has halved in the last ten years. The National goes on to report that a 2009 study by led by researcher Hedva Eyal revealed that some 57 percent of all Depo-Provera users in Israel were Ethiopian, yet their community represents less than 2 percent of the country's population: "Medical staff have pressured women to take the contraceptive at Israeli-linked transit centres inside Ethiopia that prepare them for immigration to Israel...officials at the centres threatened to deny an unspecified number of applicants entry into Israel if they refused the drug...Ms Eyal described the drug's use as part of an "unspoken policy" in Israel that aimed to reduce 'the number of births in a community that is Black and mostly poor.'"

http://www.ebony.com/news-views/the-forced-sterilization-of-ethiopian-jewish-women-785

[shira]

57. Still doesn't explain Israel's offer to rescue the survivors immediately after....

Can't say I know of any modern day deliberate military attack in which those intentionally attacking offered afterward to help those they had just intended to murder.

Do you?

You also misunderstood the Holocaust reference. Israel's enemies in 1967 were calling for Israel's annihilation, and we both know that's an obviously genocidal threat. It's more likely Israel mistakenly attacked the Liberty, and even if a pilot identified it as a US ship those in command may have had good reason they weren't convinced that the Liberty was friendly. One reason of many is Israeli miscalculation of the ship's speed (calculated to be so fast as to only be a warship). What would a US warship be doing in those waters....

Your case is weak.

[oberliner]

58. Millions of Gays were killed during the Holocaust?

You might want to check your figures on that.

[King_David]

19. Ha Ha Ha ha

You really are a beginner

But do not worry nobody will find out.

Ha Ha

(Whatever you posted there is all Greek to me, or Irish....Ha Ha Ha Ha )

[MarkLaw]

22. It's English actually.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2003/09/death-rachel-corrie

Just before five o'clock, one of the D9s rumbled lazily toward a high cinder-block wall near Nasrallah's house. Corrie swiftly positioned herself between the wall and the bulldozer, then about 30 yards from her. Crouching on the earth, almost like a supplicant in prayer, she placed her right foot behind her left and rested her right knee on the ground. Looking toward the bulletproof windows, she could probably see the silhouettes of two Israeli operators. The steel blade began pushing a huge pile of debris and sandy soil toward her, so close that the scent of the moist earth permeated her nostrils. The ground began to shift beneath her feet. Tom Dale was standing a few yards from Corrie as the bulldozer got close. "The bulldozer built up earth in front of it. Its blade was slightly dug into the earth," he told me. "She began to stand up. The earth was pushed over her feet. She tried to climb on top of the earth, to avoid being overwhelmed. She climbed to the point where her shoulders were above the top lip of the blade. She was standing on this pile of earth. As the bulldozer continued, she lost her footing, and she turned and fell down this pile of earth. Then it seemed like she got her foot caught under the blade. She was helpless, pushed prostrate, and looked absolutely panicked, with her arms out, and the earth was piling itself over her. The bulldozer continued so that the place where she fell down was directly beneath the cockpit. I think she would have been between the treads. The whole [incident] took place in about six or seven seconds."

[Dick Dastardly]

23. He may be a beginner but your response of Ha Ha Ha

does not refute what he said that the IDF ran over an Irish citizen with a bulldozer. You were schooled by a beginner.

[King_David]

24. Which Irish citezen was that? nt

[MarkLaw]

27. I was mistaken, she was in fact an American citizen. I posted correction above

The cause of Rachel Corrie and her death largely influenced Irish human

rights activists at the time. The cultural similarities between the Palestinian cause and the Irish struggle against British occupation created great sympathy for the Palestinian people.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2003/09/death-rachel-corrie

Just before five o'clock, one of the D9s rumbled lazily toward a high cinder-block wall near Nasrallah's house. Corrie swiftly positioned herself between the wall and the bulldozer, then about 30 yards from her. Crouching on the earth, almost like a supplicant in prayer, she placed her right foot behind her left and rested her right knee on the ground. Looking toward the bulletproof windows, she could probably see the silhouettes of two Israeli operators. The steel blade began pushing a huge pile of debris and sandy soil toward her, so close that the scent of the moist earth permeated her nostrils. The ground began to shift beneath her feet. Tom Dale was standing a few yards from Corrie as the bulldozer got close. "The bulldozer built up earth in front of it. Its blade was slightly dug into the earth," he told me. "She began to stand up. The earth was pushed over her feet. She tried to climb on top of the earth, to avoid being overwhelmed. She climbed to the point where her shoulders were above the top lip of the blade. She was standing on this pile of earth. As the bulldozer continued, she lost her footing, and she turned and fell down this pile of earth. Then it seemed like she got her foot caught under the blade. She was helpless, pushed prostrate, and looked absolutely panicked, with her arms out, and the earth was piling itself over her. The bulldozer continued so that the place where she fell down was directly beneath the cockpit. I think she would have been between the treads. The whole took place in about six or seven seconds."

[shira]

32. Video shows no house that she was protecting, but rather a weapons tunnel

http://www.stoptheism.com

The ISM lied their asses off with propaganda fauxtography attempting to portray Israel as intentionally murdering an innocent. This is an organization that supports the deliberate murder of innocent Jews and has a history of aiding Hamas. They very clearly are against Israel's existence, like Hamas, and are for all intents and purposes, warmongering bigots.

[MarkLaw]

38. Video shows a young women being murdered

If there would have been a weapons tunnel the area would have been cordoned off and surrounded by IDF Soldiers with big automatic weapons.

That site you linked isfull of xenophobic racism. I'm not linking to Radical garbage like that. The visitors are probably on some kind of watch list.

Just do a search, if it's necessary to watch A MAN MURDER A WOMEN.

I thought the motherjones article honored Rachel Corrie and her legacy. If the Catholic church wanted to do something good they could beatify Rachel Corrie.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2003/09/death-rachel-corrie

[shira]

40. Video shows no house. Why the fauxtography from ISM? Why the lies?

And if you knew anything about Gaza, IDF soldiers wouldn't be out in the open as targets for Hamas snipers, ergo the D9's and cameras rather than standing troops waiting to be shot at.

[MarkLaw]

42. You're right, they bomb weapons tunnels. Bulldozers are reserved for razing Palestinian homes

Last edited Wed Aug 14, 2013, 08:18 PM - Edit history (1)

Read the mother jones article, or watch your HIGHLY EDITED MURDER PORN. It's your choice.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2003/09/death-rachel-corrie

[shira]

45. Highly edited video? Words of a true believer.

The driver is even recorded as saying he thought he hit a male.

[Shaktimaan]

61. I understand that you know way too little about this subject...

To try acting like you're schooling anyone here.

RC was from the Pacific Northwest. If you don't know even that much about her are we really supposed to believe that you know whether her death was a murder or an accident?

[Scootaloo]

5. Interesting poll.

77.8% of Irish polled would have no issue with giving citizenship to Israelis.
88.5% of Irish polled would not deny citizenship to Jews
60.7% of Irish polled would accept a Jew into their family
Only 47.9% of Irish would accept an Israeli into their family.

From these numbers we can reach some conclusions
1) the Irish people polled are quite able to tell the difference between "Jew" and "Israeli," a feat that seems to elude the people writing about the numbers.

2) A very large majority of Irish have no problem at all with including Jews into their society, or even bringing Israelis into the Irish fold.

3) The Irish aren't huge fans of interfaith marriage, with only 60% being accepting of bringing a Jewish person into the family. For perspective, only 20% of Irish protestants would accept a Catholic into their family. I couldn't find statistics going the other way. I did find a poll of Israelis that gave an exactly inverted result :

Sixty percent of the sample said marriage between Jews and non-Jews bothered them; however while 97 percent of the Orthodox respondents said intermarriage was a problem, only 43 percent of the secular Jews felt it was.

[Shaktimaan]

7. I'm not so sure about those conclusions of yours.

2) A very large majority of Irish have no problem at all with including Jews into their society, or even bringing Israelis into the Irish fold.

We don't know that. What we see from the poll is that almost 25% of the Irish would not allow Israelis to become citizens at all. Which seems extremely high to me. I'm assuming that the 13% that won't have any Jews can be folded into that 25, but without better data, who knows? Still though. A world of distinction lies between "not allowed to become a citizen based on ones nationality" and the "no problem at all" line you're presenting here.

The Irish aren't huge fans of interfaith marriage, with only 60% being accepting of bringing a Jewish person into the family. For perspective, only 20% of Irish protestants would accept a Catholic into their family.

Ok, wow! So you're just chalking the "only 60% being accepting of bringing a Jewish person into the family" up to their "not being huge fans of interfaith marriage?" Really?

And for "perspective" you're comparing a poll asking about their reaction to seeing a different religious denomination coming into the family. I guess as a sort of control group, huh? Well, as long as you used the most "inert" version of a different religion available, that might be useful to look at. What'd you go with, Buddhism or Jain or some-OHMYGOD! You mixed Protestant and catholic Irish people?!?!? And surprise, you got a really low number! It MUST be because the Irish are "not being huge fans of interfaith marriage" as you stated earlier. It probably has nothing to do with the endless decades of colonial anger, bloody conflict and seething animosity that happens to exist between those two groups. Nah! We can just use it as an acceptable parallel to compare the Irish and the Jews. Right?

Oh my god how did you manage to type that "conclusion" without losing all respect for yourself?

Seriously, the best case scenario you're offering is that almost half of Ireland is wildly xenophobic when faced with anything but strict ethnic-religious homogeneity. That's actually your argument here to try and make them look less lousy. AND you're wrong to boot!

And why are Irish families apparently happier to get a Jewish brother in law than an israeli one, regardless of his religion/ethnicity? Seems like the Irish really dislike Israelis for some reason.

I'll bet you anything it's a shitty reason too.

[Scootaloo]

10. Well, of course we're going by the people polled

Of course since the original source makes some broad assumptions about Ireland as a whole based on their poll, there ought to be no problem with using the exact same poll to make other, more factual assumptions about Ireland.

Again, since you don't seem to understand numbers.

77.8% (that's almost 80%, not almost 75%, if you want to round to the nearest 5) of Irish would not oppose (i.e., have no problem with) giving citizenship to Israelis. That's a very strong majority of those polled. That is to say, a large majority of Irish wouldn't mind Israelis gaining Irish nationality. I that a bad thing, something to condemn Ireland for? ONLY a very large majority?

Yes, we can probably include the 13% (now you know how to round numbers?) who would oppose any Jewish citizenship into that percentage. I think that's a safe bet. What I'd be interested in knowing is what the Irish would think of immigration from, say, Algeria, Cambodia, or Moldavia. Just some other random nation. Do you suppose that the 20% of irish opposed to Israelis becoming citizens would welcome someone from Cameroon with open arms? We don't know, but the poll seems to only ask the question about Israel, then tries to portray this as "special bias" against Israel, as if these same people are opening the gates for the Bhutanese.

Ok, wow! So you're just chalking the "only 60% being accepting of bringing a Jewish person into the family" up to their "not being huge fans of interfaith marriage?" Really?

Uh... Yeah? Ireland's a pretty religious place. Even for people who aren't particularly religious the history of religious division in Ireland still gives a "team" mentality, you're one of us or you're one of them. Should we be at all surprised that when polled, 40% of people from this country wouldn't want to add a Jewish person to their family? I mean hey, we're sensible people (At least, I am, not so sure about you) and so we disagree with these people... but it's not an especially surprising number.

You mixed Protestant and catholic Irish people?!?!? And surprise, you got a really low number!

It's surprisingly difficult to find polls on the subject pertaining to Ireland. We should note that the source poll for this article seems to (again) only ask about Jews... So again I ask, do you imagine that those polled would be more amenable to bringing in a Silkh, Muslim, or Scientologist person into the family than a Jewish person? Do the people who turn their nose up at Levi Epstien welcome Ahmed Souri with wide-open arms, do you suppose? We don't have the numbers, but I would kind of doubt it.

Oh my god how did you manage to type that "conclusion" without losing all respect for yourself?

The conclusion that a fairly religious society riven by factionalism based on faith might not be totally in favor of crossing denominational streams? A better question is why you think this is a bizarre conclusion.

Seriously, the best case scenario you're offering is that almost half of Ireland is wildly xenophobic when faced with anything but strict ethnic-religious homogeneity. That's actually your argument here to try and make them look less lousy. AND you're wrong to boot!

Wow. if that's the conclusion you reach about a rather average level of antipathy towards interfaith marriages from the Irish, then I can only wonder what cretinous barbarians you imagine the Jews of Israel to be - since even the secular Jews of Israel have HIGHER disapproval of the practice when compared to the Irish, while the orthodox seem to be absolutely shitting their pants in a rage-filled apoplexy about it (97-fucking-percent, Shaktimaan, want to tell me about these scumbags?)

It's cute that you shout "you're wrong!" without ever trying to make an argument about why. Fact of the matter is that I'm not wrong. It's not an unusual figure, as Israel itself proves when asked the same fucking question. In fact going by this poll on Washington Post 60% of those who answered feel it's very important to keep it in the faith (yes, it's an online poll, I can't stress enough how hard it is to find solid data on this! Plenty on how many couples are mixed-faith, not so much on public opinion on that - denominationally mixed marriges in America are somewhere in the 35% neighborhood)

Here's what really gets me. you're accusing me of trying to make the Irish "look less lousy"

...because I point out that 89% of Irish do not oppose granting foreign Jews irish citizenship
...because I point out that 78% of Irish do not oppose giving Israelis citizenship
...because I point out that 60% of Irish would not oppose bringing a Jewish person into their family.

Yes, by pointing out that the Irish seem pretty accepting of all of this, I am trying to obfuscate how fucking lousy they are. How care they not loathe Jews with every fibre of their beings, the bastards!

Which brings us to the core point I'm making. This poll is extremely skewed. It seems to only ask questions about opinions on Jews and Israel, without any sort of "control" element - What about immigration from Angola, what about bringing a Zoroastrian into the family, etc - to calibrate on. It gets a pretty solidly favorable response to the questions asked... and then ignores it, instead choosing to focus on the minorities who responded disfavorably. It tries to cast these results as typical of Ireland and the Irish people as a whole, rather than the majority.

So you start off with the completely false assumption that "the Irish" are lousy people. Because that's the narrative being fed to you by selective spotlighting and framing. Nice casual bigotry on your part, too.

And why are Irish families apparently happier to get a Jewish brother in law than an israeli one, regardless of his religion/ethnicity? Seems like the Irish really dislike Israelis for some reason.

Dunno. Probably negative opinion of Israel carrying over to the people of Israel. Given that you're arguing that the Irish are lousy people on the basis of a misrepresentative narrative construct from a poll, I'm not sure if you're in a strong position to call someone else's reasons for disliking a nationality "shitty," though

On edit: The study cited is "Pluralism and Diversity in Ireland," a book by Micheal Mac Greil, and not actually a "poll," per se. So I'm going to step back and say that the questions about other nationalities and faiths probably were asked, and probably a lot more besides... and are simply not being presented by the author of the piece Shira picked up (or for that matter the authors of the Irish Central piece where I got more precise numbers.) I'd like to flip through this book... but I can't afford $35 on Amazon. Ah well. Eternal mystery, perhaps!

[shaayecanaan]

49. How many Israelis do you think would accept Irish Catholics into their family?

Answers on a postcard please.

[Shaktimaan]

60. Seeing as how...

None of em seem to have much of a problem bringing nonjewish Russians into their families, they'd prolly be ok with it as long as everyone was planning to stay in Israel.

Because here's the part you're missing. Modern Jews are facing a steady decline in numbers due to intermarriage and there's real concern that the culture will be lost.

By comparison there were (at last count anyway), PLENTY of Irish and PLENTY of Catholics and Prodestants.

So the REASONING behind all of those conclusions were mere conjecture.

[shaayecanaan]

62. Population of Ireland is about six million

which is about equal to the number of Jews in Israel.

As far as the diaspora goes, roughly 11.8% of Americans self-identify as having Irish ancestry, according to the census, whereas 2.2% of Americans profess to be Jewish, although this is not a horses for courses comparison, as if the question was whether a person had Jewish ancestry, those numbers might be a bit higher.

The proportion of Irish Catholics marrying other Irish Catholics in the US is a bit lower than it is for Jews, but broadly comparable. Interestingly enough, when Catholics marry Jews, the children tend to be raised as Jews rather than Catholics.

There are other comparisons - for example, there are 18,000 Gaelic speakers in the US, but 200,000 Hebrew speakers. Admittedly, even within Ireland Gaelic is not doing terribly well.

Ultimately, I do not think that Irish peoples' sense of identity is so much stronger than Jews that it would justify Jews objecting to intermarriage but condemn Irish people for making similar objections.

Frankly, I consider this to be a lazy excuse for Jewish racism and hypocrisy. If your daughter brings home a black guy, well, you're not objecting because you're a racist, but because you are legitimately concerned for the survival of the Jewish people. Whereas if his family objects, well, that makes them anti-semites.

[MarkLaw]

41. Sympathy and support grown from shared suffering.

Which brings us to a modern-day Irish ship bobbing on the seas, the Rachel Corrie. It too is filled with Irish rebels, including Nobel Prize laureate Mairead Maguire, who insist on the right to deliver humanitarian supplies to the war-torn Gaza Strip. The Irish Government stands with them, and has attempted to negotiate these perilous waters with the government of Israel, which after much saber-rattling and threats of harm, is working on a compromise that the crew of the Rachel Corrie may or may not accept.

Ireland's most senior Catholic cleric, Cardinal Sean Brady, on Friday called for Israel to lift its military blockade of Gaza. The Primate of All-Ireland urged countries around the world to ensure international law is upheld by all parties in the region.
http://www.irishcentral.com/story/news/father_tim/rachel-corrie-honors-irish-history-while-israel-forgets-its-own-95663789.html

Excerpt from Irish Central

The suffering of the Irish during the bloody years of the British occupation is similar to the Imprisoned citizens of Gaza who only receive what Israel allows them.

[shira]

46. Well, only shared suffering when Israel can be blamed....

Palestinians suffering oppression in Gaza, or under apartheid conditions in Lebanon and Egypt are invisible for some reason.

[MarkLaw]

48. Many suffer under Theocratic authoritarian regimes. No one is forgotten.

[oberliner]

53. Israel is neither a theocratic nor an authoritarian regime

Where are you getting your information from?

[shira]

56. Really? Show me where you've condemned oppression that Palestinians....

...suffer under Hamas or the PA (women, gays, christians, blacks) or in Lebanon (apartheid). You seem to be on the ball when it comes to anything you can blame Israel for. Just looking for some consistency.

[GP6971]

54. Nothing. n/t