Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumReport: Israel urges West to back Egypt's military
Jerusalem launching campaign to urge Europe, United States to support military-backed government in Egypt, New York Times reports. 'What’s the alternative? it’s army or anarchy,' says Israeli official
"We’re trying to talk to key actors, key countries, and share our view that you may not like what you see, but what’s the alternative?” the official explained. “If you insist on big principles, then you will miss the essential — the essential being putting Egypt back on track at whatever cost. First, save what you can, and then deal with democracy and freedom and so on.
On Saturday, the New York Times quoted diplomatic sources as saying that Israel and Egyptian Defense Minister General Abdel Fatah al-Sisi have been in close contact.
These same diplomats say that Israel assured Egypt it did not have to worry about the US threat to cut its enormous aid package to that country.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4419455,00.html
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R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
pelsar
(12,283 posts)backing/supporting the PA which is a dictatorship....backing and supporting hamas in gaza is a theocratic dictatorship.....
it will be tough to find a pro palestenian progressive that doesnt talk out both sides of their mouth when it comes to the PA and gaza.
one side will say: we dont support hamas and the PAs dictatorship..and the other side will hem and haw and eventually if pushed will say something like "its the will of the people" so i support them
both reject western democracy, western values....and both are dictatorships.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and how many times does it have to be pointed out that Palestinian elections have not been held because they would only involve the West Bank at this point in time, something that would further cement the separation of the Palestinian people
Now I know some here lick their chops and salivate for a 3 state solution
what is equally strange is that the same side high fives a military coup in Egypt and the country they so admire has said of democracy at least for Egyptians
and apparently the same goes for Palestinians, anyone notice a pattern here?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)israeli occupation or hamas
the support is indirect...remember the attempts at breaking the blockade and the photo ops with hamas leadership? one doesn't have a photo op with a dictator that one is against....i dont even recall a single protest against the hamas leadership, i do recall lots of articles posts, against israels "theocratic govt"....so i find it hard to agree with you that the "progressives are some how against hamas..any real evidence? It is probably from a progressive point of view: the less of the two evils...given that the dictators are of the proper race....
and that is the same concept behind israel preferring a military dictatorship
Israel is a country not an ideology as in the progressives. israels concern in egypt is a non islamic govt first and foremost. I've read where progressives have no problem with a theocratic dictatorship in egypt as long as its the "peoples choice".....hence progressives at least some of them have no real problem with the consequences of such governments...i.e. hanging homosexuals, etc
Whereas a democracy based on western values is always the best, its also not realistic...next best thing is a secular dictatorship as in mubarak and finally a military dictatorship...last in line is an islamic one.
___________
though you refuse to look around, and see hamas in gaza, hamas gaining influence in the westbank, turkey slowly going theocratic islamic, iran already there, Syria being divided....I believe you response is: well Egypt is not any of those countries so it probably wont happen and if it does, well, we just wont like it
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)first off dos indirect support equate to supporting the people of Gaza not continuing to live under the hardship of a siege?
yep I hear that quite a bit, I guess having free access to trade and other necessities is the exact same as supporting Hamas
and which are you claiming as a race here Jews or Arabs?
and that is the same concept behind israel preferring a military dictatorship
which concept? The one that results in the most dead Arabs?
Israel is a country not an ideology as in the progressives. israels concern in egypt is a non islamic govt first and foremost. I've read where progressives have no problem with a theocratic dictatorship in egypt as long as its the "peoples choice".....hence progressives at least some of them have no real problem with the consequences of such governments...i.e. hanging homosexuals, etc
do you have any proof that the military or Mubarak will or did treat Gays any better than the claims about the MB?
Whereas a democracy based on western values is always the best, its also not realistic...next best thing is a secular dictatorship as in mubarak and finally a military dictatorship...last in line is an islamic one.
I wonder if last in line goes with allowed greater freedom of movement from Gaza?
___________
though you refuse to look around, and see hamas in gaza, hamas gaining influence in the westbank, turkey slowly going theocratic islamic, iran already there, Syria being divided....I believe you response is: well Egypt is not any of those countries so it probably wont happen and if it does, well, we just wont like it
I've 'looked around' plenty here on the subject of Syria you might have a point,but lets remember Morsi's ouster came quite shortly after he broke off relations with Assad and called for according to the Western media "Jihad" in Syria, my take is that there are more than one rebel faction in Syria and the supporters of the Egyptian coup weren't all too sure which one was being supported
about Turkey we've discussed that previously if memory serves your creeping Islamism was that women were being allowed a choice of whether or not to wear a hijab in universities and government offices and functions, not required but a choice-it's a first being given freedom of choice is viewed as somehow bad, that convenience stores could no longer sell liquor after 10 pm and as I told you then taken as a whole Turkey's liquor laws are more 'liberal' than those in my state Minnesota
pelsar
(12,283 posts)where has the intl left just supported the people of gaza and somehow not supported the hamas govt?
i have yet to see one protest against the hamas govt...so where is your proof? one protest...one
though we have seen photo ops with the left and hamas...thats a pretty good example of support, as well as taking the hamas storyline as factual despite evidence to the contrary....another example of support
got any evidence of the opposite?
________
do you have any proof that the military or Mubarak will or did treat Gays any better than the claims about the MB?
I understand that you dont like to accept what what the islamic theocratic regimes do...i understand you cant accept that the muslim brotherhood is a all about a theocratic govt as they have said....and basic history has shown that theorcratic govts are worse in terms of civil rights than secular ones.
what i find fascinating is the way you look down upon them, ignore their beliefs and ignore what they say and believe.....the only reason that i can see is that you look down upon them and simply dont believe them....so why dont you?
same true with turkey.....women from turkey write articles about what they see happening and you disbelieve them..i guess because they turkish.....
i have yet to see one protest against the hamas govt...so where is your proof? one protest...one
so because there are no organized protests it equates to support, maybe for your purposes, but look around here I have not seen much support for Hamas by Leftists or actual Liberals
though we have seen photo ops with the left and hamas...thats a pretty good example of support, as well as taking the hamas storyline as factual despite evidence to the contrary....another example of support
the photo ops you've seen and one repeatedly posted one, of I believe Greta Berlin who by the way seems far more important to the Pro whatever it is your Pro about side, IMO it's not having 400,000 new neighbors or is the obvious photoshop of Lauren Booth, is a small segment of what again for your own purposes you want to represent as the entirety of what you claim is the Left
got any evidence of the opposite?
look around here you'll find, if your actually looking that is
now I asked you if you had proof that Mubarak treated Gays any better than Morsi and your answer
what i find fascinating is the way you look down upon them, ignore their beliefs and ignore what they say and believe.....the only reason that i can see is that you look down upon them and simply dont believe them....so why dont you?
On Gay rights No would have been much easier to type, but it wouldn't have suited your purposes
I understand that you dont like to accept what what the islamic theocratic regimes do...i understand you cant accept that the muslim brotherhood is a all about a theocratic govt as they have said....and basic history has shown that theorcratic govts are worse in terms of civil rights than secular ones.
and once again do you have any proof that thee military government of Egypt will really be any different, than Morsi's nand please lt's stop with pretense about civil rights and freedoms , your government spoke quite clearly about that at least where Egyptians are concerned
""We’re trying to talk to key actors, key countries, and share our view that you may not like what you see, but what’s the alternative?” the official explained. “If you insist on big principles, then you will miss the essential — the essential being putting Egypt back on track at whatever cost. First, save what you can, and then deal with democracy and freedom and so on. "
same true with turkey.....women from turkey write articles about what they see happening and you disbelieve them..i guess because they turkish.....
are you speaking about the opinion piece you posted written by a woman who was born in Turkey but is living Canada with her European husband?
she like you seemed upset by women being a choice something that really confounds m if looked at logically but if looked at as a political talking point makes perfect if laughable sense but unfortunately doesn't score many points or was it the Turkey not allowing liquor sales in convenience stores after 10pm, again doesn't impress much
the women from turkey was talking about the education changes...shes wise enough to know that all long term changes come via the education of the youth, the revision of the govt clerks with religious ones, the replacement of the army generals.
your exactly the kind of person that doesnt see what is happening until its already happened, because you dont want to/ can't. That was morsi mistake, he made his changes so that even you and others like u could see the direction he was going, and was kicked out.
its not rocket science, its subtle politics....but you jut have to look
_______________________
and evidence against hamas?....seriously...one public protest..just one....you've claimed that the "people of gaza" are supported and not the govt. When i mean not supported I mean more than some words on a forum, but real actions....and going to gaza and having the full support of the left and then having a pict with the govt is supporting the hamas govt...plane and simple.
__
so if i understand you correctly you are claiming that secular military govts/dictatorships are no worse than theocratic ones
try to answer it clearly: you might want to compare the shah of iran vs khommni as one example, or perhaps the PA vs Hamas as another one
or just claim there is no difference...but give me a warning first as i do have a coffee cup in my hand
bravenak
(34,648 posts)No thanks. Don't want to back that kind of madness.
denverbill
(11,489 posts)
King_David
(14,851 posts)Whom the vast majority of the Egyptian people oppose . As witnessed in the massive demonstrations that caused the military to act.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)A recent field study indicates that the number of Egyptians opposed to the overthrow of Dr Mohamed Morsi as President has risen to 69 per cent. Only around 25 per cent of Egyptians support his current detention, while 6 per cent prefer to keep their opinion to themselves.
The study conducted by the Egyptian Centre for Media Studies and the public opinion group Integrating Egypt is the second of its kind to be conducted since General Abdel-Fatah Al-Sisi, Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, and various political and religious factions collaborated to depose Morsi in a military coup last month.
The aim of the study was to examine the critical group in opposition to President Morsi's detention and the trajectory of the level of support for the 2011 Constitution (approximately 78 per cent) if the current political situation continues. It shows the qualitative distribution of those in opposition to Morsi's isolation, only around 19 per cent of whom are Muslim Brotherhood supporters. Thirty-nine per cent of those opposed to his detention are affiliated with other Islamic factions whereas 36 per cent do not affiliate with any political movements. The liberal bloc and Christians constitute 6 per cent and 2 per cent of the study respectively.
- See more at:
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/africa/6850-study-shows-opposition-to-morsi-ouster-rises-to-69#sthash.SGN2kQ5J.3Fxc0uks.dpuf
King_David
(14,851 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but it all depends on what you try to sell, her report was short on facts and figures and long on what some in the West want to hear
MisterP
(23,730 posts)or will this 6-way fight blossom into an 18-way one?
MarkLaw
(204 posts)Israel should not recieve billions in $ taxpayer $ dollars every year if they back undemocratic regimes!
Israel has a history of supporting terrorism in Egypt(LAVON AFFAIR). Hopefully they aren't contributing to the violence now taking place in Egypt.
King_David
(14,851 posts)No.
You will never get any Democratic Party president nor any majority of Democratic Party congressman to support that .
MarkLaw
(204 posts)They will find it hard to influence policy when they are out of a job.
King_David
(14,851 posts)MarkLaw
(204 posts)or that honesty can be enraging?
King_David
(14,851 posts)LOL.
Where ? NYC ? LA ? Miami ?
You seem to have a firm understanding of the US electorate.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but it dos seem like there is an understanding of the electoral collage map 
King_David
(14,851 posts)Very influential .
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Your views on Israel are closer to Ron Paul and paleo-cons like Pat Buchanan.
You realize this is Democratic Underground, right? Not paleo-con underground. Or fascist underground.
MarkLaw
(204 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)MarkLaw
(204 posts)One of the quote is from and Israeli Judge.
What other Israeli officials do you consider to be fringe? Anyone that doesn't agree with you?
shira
(30,109 posts)There's nothing racist about it.
Israel recognizes all mixed marriages within Israel or between Israelis and spouses in countries NOT AT WAR currently with Israel. What's in question is whether Israel should feel obligated to recognize and sanction marriages b/w its citizens and those who are in countries like Iran, Syria, or the Palestinian Territories.
You're fringe. And you must be VERY upset that the Dem Party rejects just about all your views on I/P.
MarkLaw
(204 posts)I can't believe you are attempting to say that American Democrats support racism, segregation, forced sterilization policies listed below!!!!!!!!
The words Israeli Apartheid are nothing more than a descriptor of systemic racist policies that one ruling ethnic group has imposed on another in the same land. I grew up in Israel, I think I have some authority and knowledge to tell you a little bit about what is happening there. It saddens me. This was my grandparent’s and parent’s dream, a land they help to build. But in that dream, others were dispossessed. And in that dispossession, much injustice has occurred. I am not afraid to say that, I am not afraid to admit when I and/or my people have erred. And Israel has indeed erred.
In 2009, I lived in the West Bank for a year, yes, a nice Jewish lesbian living in Ramallah. My partner and I traveled every day for six months on a segregated road system; they are known as the apartheid roads because they are segregated by your ethnic identity. Roads for Jewish Israelis, roads for Palestinians. We made a film about these roads that screened at TIFF 2011. Yes, a film about the apartheid roads that thousands of people saw at TIFF. You cannot single out Pride, Councilor Pasternak.
The Israel Supreme Court heard a case arguing that the road systems constituted a state of apartheid—The term is used in Israeli newspapers and by many Israeli politicians. Just in the last few months, countless articles appeared in the Israeli press citing Israeli Apartheid. Are they too creating “atmospheres of discrimination (or hurt)”? Are you suggesting that Toronto knows more about Israeli Apartheid than Israel?
While there are voices from individuals in the Toronto Jewish community who may claim this hurtful, I too am the Toronto Jewish community. And I say otherwise.
Enough is enough. Council’s cannot continue to single Pride out. This must end here and now. Your city staff has said so and Pride’s Dispute Resolution Committee has said so.
Perhaps if councilor Pasternak and those who find the term Israeli Apartheid hurtful, could see the real effects of these insidious policies, perhaps just then, they would help us all move to peace, and not apartheid.
For the first time since allegations were made five years ago, the Israeli government has admitted that Jewish Ethiopian immigrants were coerced into taking the birth control injection Depo-Provera. This common form of birth control has many long-term effects, including loss of bone mineral density, heightened risk of osteoporosis, and a high risk of blood clots. The shot, which is administered every three months, leaves women infertile during this time, and often women who take it have more far reaching fertility issues even after discontinuing its use.
In early December the plight of these Ethiopian immigrants came into focus yet again when investigative journalist for Israel Educational Television’s program Vacuum Gal Gabbay aired a special report on the issue. Thirty-five women were interviewed, claiming that during their stay in transit camps in Ethiopia they had to attend family planning programs where they were coerced into taking the injections as a prerequisite to entering the country, and that the injections continued even after entering Israel. Emawayish, one of the women interviewed, had this to say of her experience:
“We said we won’t have the shot. They told us, if you don’t you won’t go to Israel and also you won’t be allowed into the Joint (American Joint Distribution Committee) office, you won’t get aid or medical care. We were afraid… We didn’t have a choice. Without them and their aid we couldn’t leave there. So we accepted the injection. It was only with their permission that we were allowed to leave.”
The letter indicates that the students(Ethiopians) should ride separate buses from their friends upon returning home from their respective schools in order not to pass through Tel Aviv’s central bus station.
“This letter is outrageous,” says a counselor at one of the schools that received the letter. “I instruct a group of Ethiopian students, and have no trouble with them. They are adorable. What is the meaning of this obtuse language?” He said he had no intention of telling the students they should use alternate routes.
“The Education Ministry should educate itself first,” says Gadi Yevrakan, who directs the headquarters for the struggle for social equality for Jewish Ethiopians.
“If I hadn’t seen the symbol of the state of Israel on the letter I would have thought it had been taken from the ’50s of the previous century in the US, when there was segregation on buses.”
Yevrakan said the ministry had crossed a “moral and educational red line”, and that he hoped Education Minister Gideon Sa’ar would cancel the letter’s instructions.
“The Education Ministry, instead of educating youth, is educating society towards racial stigmatism regarding an entire race,” he said. “Now you can really see the ugly face of education in Israel. We will fight this with all our means.”
Yes yes I know politicians back Israel, sending billions of tax dollars to Israel while American children attend crumbling schools, unemployment is rampant, Banks are victimizing Americans everyday.
Unfortunately politicians care more about $LOBBY$ $dollars$ than they do about the interests of the people who elected them.
SAD
shira
(30,109 posts)There was no admittance of racist practice either...
"Without taking a stand or determining facts about allegations that were made," Gamzu wrote, "I would like to instruct, from now on, all gynecologists in the HMOs not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian – or any other – origin, if there is the slightest doubt that they have not understood the implications of the treatment."
He called on the physicians to employ translators if necessary to explain the possible side effects. Side effects reported by users of Depo-Provera include menstrual irregularities, loss of bone mass, abdominal pain or discomfort, weight gain, headache, fatigue and depression.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-minister-appointing-team-to-probe-ethiopian-birth-control-shot-controversy-1.506266
Haaretz even admitted their original report was misleading (see admittance and correction at end of article).
And who was threatened with deportation? Haaretz doesn't say that. It's a fucking lie.
If you're TRULY concerned about racism, there's plenty in the territories - STATE SANCTIONED by the Palestinian Leadership you support. But somehow, I don't believe you're worried even one tiny, little bit....
http://souciant.com/2011/10/black-and-palestinian/
Here's a video about it going on within the Palestinian community in Israel...
&feature=related
It's part of a bigger problem throughout the Arab world.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/opinion/10iht-edeltahawy.1.18556273.html?_r=0
I know, you can't see this and won't. It's 100x worse than anything the GOI can be accused of. So keep pretending.
Not very progressive of you...
shira
(30,109 posts)....that Bush, McCain, and others promote (Iraq, Gaza, and now Egypt). NONE of that crap works.
If there is to be a dictatorship in Iraq, Gaza, or Egypt.....it should at the very least be the LESSER of 2 evils (Arab Nationalist vs. Islamist theocracy) and friendly to American interests.
MarkLaw
(204 posts)Israel is a theocratic state! Israel want's all of its citizens to recognize that they are citizens of a Jewish state, Unfortunately if the natives who fled war are allowed to return a Palestinian Muslim majority will make up the majority of this Jewish state. HOW THE HELL IS THAT DEMOCRATIC? How is it possible to be democratic for a minority to dictate to the majority! ITS A MILITARY DICTATORSHIP.
http://www.ebony.com/news-views/the-forced-sterilization-of-ethiopian-jewish-women-785
http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/contraceptive-injections-ethiopian.html
Israel's racist marriage law.
http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/15587
Egyptians deserves whatever government they vote for. They have no responsibility to vote according to American interests, as Americans have no responsibility to vote according to Egyptian interests.
America will face the ICC because we have given weapons to Egypt, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Libya that were then used by these countries militaries or leading radicals to kill millions of civilians across these territories.
I can't believe anyone thinks its alright to put their own interests ahead of a peoples right to democratically elect their own leaders!
Sad.
shira
(30,109 posts)1. Whatever happened with the Ethiopian women wasn't gov't sanctioned. The Gov't actually made it clear they supported the Ethiopian women.
"Without taking a stand or determining facts about allegations that were made," Gamzu wrote, "I would like to instruct, from now on, all gynecologists in the HMOs not to renew prescriptions for Depo-Provera for women of Ethiopian – or any other – origin, if there is the slightest doubt that they have not understood the implications of the treatment."
He called on the physicians to employ translators if necessary to explain the possible side effects. Side effects reported by users of Depo-Provera include menstrual irregularities, loss of bone mass, abdominal pain or discomfort, weight gain, headache, fatigue and depression.
You're also assuming these women were DUMBER THAN DIRT and kept renewing their Rx's every 3 months because..........?
2. There are MANY mixed marriages within Israel, and recognized by the GOI, between Arabs and Jews. You know, those Arabs within Israel you label as "Palestinians". Confused, aren't you?
3. You favor neo-con policy regarding dictatorial, totalitarian elections. No surprise there. So did Bush and so do McCain and Graham today. They'd rather see Morsi and the Brotherhood in control making life FAR more miserable for Egyptians. Same NEO-CON policy leading to Iraq and the Gaza elections.
Egypt's army wouldn't have done anything if not for the MILLIONS of protesters. What about their rights?
MarkLaw
(204 posts)TheY returned to the clinic and received the shots because they didn't want to get deported.
According to the program, while the women were still in transit camps in Ethiopia they were sometimes intimidated or threatened into taking the injection. “They told us they are inoculations,” said one of the women interviewed. “They told us people who frequently give birth suffer. We took it every three months. We said we didn’t want to.”
http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/contraceptive-injections-ethiopian.html
I assume the women were terrified about being deported, why would you imply they are "dumber than dirt"?
The most menacing checkpoints are not necessarily those erected along roads, but the intangible ones inside Palestinian households. Family reunification is not only a problem for married couples with different documents, but also family members that carry divergent documents.
This is most common in areas close to occupied Jerusalem. In one Palestinian family, the wife, an Israeli citizen, gave birth to five children in the West Bank, who then obtained the green identity card.
Fearing she might lose her Israeli documents, the woman in question decided to move to her parents’ home in Israel proper. There, she had two children with blue identification cards. Her family is now fragmented.
In one Arab village inside 1948 Palestine, the Asaad family lives away from the eyes of the Israeli police, in a state of extreme isolation and secrecy. Asaad is married to a Palestinian woman living in Israel. He carries a green identification card, and has three children holding permanent residence permits.
Asaad first entered Israel using a temporary entry permit. Since then, he has lived there “illegally.” He only visits his relatives in the West Bank during holidays, when restrictions are relaxed.
Otherwise, he is forced to spend holidays away from his family, while his wife takes their kids to visit his parents. He cannot move freely out of a fear that he will be deported.
Abdallah Salama and his 16-year old son live in the village of al-Ram, a stone’s throw from Jerusalem. On the other side of the city, his wife and his other two children live in the village of Anata, which lies beyond the separation barrier.
The husband and his son, both carrying green identity cards, are forced to travel along rugged roads on their infrequent visits to the mother. In turn, Abdallah’s wife, whose blue card spares her from the hassles of bypass roads, returns home only on quick visits once or twice a week.
She had decided to move back to Jerusalem fearing that Israeli census officers may visit her parents’ home in the city while she is absent. This would cause her to lose her permit, and would destroy her chances to pass on her papers to her young children.
Since her two children have yet to receive their Israeli-issued documents, they do not have access to free education. They therefore have to join the long daily wait at the Qalandiya checkpoint, on their way to their mother’s home, back from school in al-Ram.
The family of Abdallah Salama is one of thousands that applied for family reunification after 2003. But under the citizenship law, the family was denied the chance to live under the same roof.
http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/15587
Right now in Egypt you have a military dictatorship with people being slaughtered in the streets with American made weapons? How that better than democratic elections?
Egypt is not only a critical American alley in the Middle East, but it is home to relatives of hundreds of local families. Many of those families took to the streets of Bellevue Wednesday night to condemn the violence and rally support.
"Who's happy with the blood? Who can feel comfort when he sees people murdered?" said Hatim Aiad, who was born in Cairo and attended Wednesday's protests.
Hundreds were killed in 12 hours of Chaos earlier Wednesday in Cairo. Video shows snipers firing into crowds of civilians, and that image hit home for 13-year-old Muhammed Abdel Motagaly.
"It's unbelievable," he said. "And there's snipers and they're not just shooting, they're shooting to kill in the neck, in the head, in the chest. It's hard."
The east side has a large Egyptian-American community, and many came out on Wednesday to plead for peace in their native land.
"Part of me is relieved that I'm over here because I'm safe, but also the other part of me really is sad because this is my country and I'm losing it by the second," said Mariam Kamel, who was born in Cairo.
For many, it is tough being so far from a country they love. But they feel speaking out and standing up are better than standing by and watching silently.
"You can't be quiet about it. If you're quiet about it, it means you want the killing to happen," said Muhammed Abdel Motagaly.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/If-youre-quiet-about-it-it-means-you-want-the-killing-to-happen-219723901.html
The majority of people voted for the President. THE MAJORITY OF THOSE PROTESTING, UNLIKE WHAT IS PRESENTED BY WESTERN MEDIA, are protesting against the military limiting the Presidents powers. THEY WERE PROTESTING AGAINST A CONTINUATION OF MILITARY RULE.
shira
(30,109 posts)If anyone actually said that, it's of course obscene. But as I quoted for you, from Haaretz, the government is working to protect these women now. All democracies have their issues, but it's how they respond to them that sets them apart from other societies.
Over 10 million Egyptians were protesting against Morsi. Out of a population of 82M, that's significant. Bigger than the protests vs. Mubarak. The military had to step in. They're not even calling for military rule, as Egypt's Army has said there are going to be early elections.
MarkLaw
(204 posts)Egypt's main opposition coalition says it would not support a "military coup" and trusted that an army statement giving political leaders 48 hours to resolve the current crisis did not mean it would assume a political role.
"We do not support a military coup," the National Salvation Front (NSF) said in a statement.
"The NSF has been committed, since its formation on 22 November, 2012, to build a civil, modern and democratic state that allows the participation of all political trends, including political Islam. We trust the army's declaration, reflected in their statement (Monday), that they don't want to get involved in politics, or play a political role," it said.
It insisted that the demand for Islamist President Mohamed Morsi to step down does not violate democratic principles but is an attempt to bring the 2011 revolt that toppled Hosni Mubarak back on track.
"Asking Morsi to resign is not against democratic procedures... None of the revolution's demands were met, Morsi and the (Muslim Brotherhood) took the country in another direction that mainly reflected their desire to dominate the state, and did not build a democracy (freedom), or managed to improve the living standards of Egyptians and provide their basic needs," the NSF said.
The majority of Egyptians, even the minority who did not support Morsi, DO NOT WANT A MILITARY COUP.
ANYONE WHO SUPPORT THE MILITARY SUPPORTS THIS BLOODSHED---------->>>>>>>http://imgur.com/a/kXjnf#25
http://www.carbonated.tv/news/redditor-in-egypt-posts-shocking-photos-stories-of-protests
MarkLaw
(204 posts)Your on ignore for implying that!
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRrealllllllllllll progressive of you, NOT!
Disgusting.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You'll miss some stuff you don't want to miss. Go back and read her posts and you'll see this played out over and over. Somebody called it hasbara? Idk. But your right anyway.
shira
(30,109 posts)...in the Palestinian territories. You know, the really, REALLY bad shit that will happen in the future state of Palestine you support so much. Let the page load fully...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113445479#post23
That's what a future Palestine will look like.
Not that it's surprising, given they treat women, gays, jews & christians like shit too. What are you and your fellow "anti-racist, pro-Palestinian" advocates doing about that?
Anything?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)No I don't have an answer for you on anti black racism in Palestine. I've never been there. I'm mixed so I fully resemble them and I've never had a problem with that nastiness from middle easterners myself. They may not have known i was black though, right? Did Israel finally stop shipping black Jews and other blacks back to Africa and not granting asylum? That's good to know, hon. I guess they ended the occupation too, right?
Maybe just maybe, if they (palestine) were free, they could fix their problems and have they're own political movements and civil rights push. But they're too busy being occupied so they can't get around to it right now. Kinda busy.
I love reading your posts and I would recommend everyone read them. I never ignore those who are usually wrong or have an agenda. Eventually I'll win you over to believing that continuing the occupation will only cause Israel's downfall and lead to more and more sympathy and recognition for Palestine. The best was to fix this is to come together with Palestine and make a deal. And equitable fair, nobody is 100% satisfied deal. And stick to it.
By the way, you are not prescient. You have no idea what a future Palestine would look like. I'd wager you don't even want it to exist, so why would you be imagining it?
I love the way you do your thing though, if I say Apartheid exists in Israel. You point to Evil Racist Palestinians. You can never stay on subject.
shira
(30,109 posts)...but you've never been to Israel either & have an opinion on that.
And since when did Israel ship black Jews back to Africa? You making that one up?
I know what a future Palestine under their leadership will look like. Look around the Arab mideast for similar leadership. There is absolutely NO MOVEMENT within Palestine or within the so-called "PRO" Palestinian movement worldwide to rectify these problems. So other than faith, what makes you think a future Palestine will be progressive in any way?
The thing about apartheid is that it doesn't exist in Israel or the territories. For GENUINE racism and apartheid, that's happening all around Israel in neighboring countries, but I've learned NONE of you guys who act concerned about these sort of things (when it comes to Israel) can be bothered about that.
I can't imagine running into many Jews who are only concerned about antisemitism in one place, but who can't be bothered when it's happening in so many others. This seems to be a big problem within the anti-Israel movement, where what's considered abhorrent in western societies is virtually ignored, explained away, or whitewashed in non-western tyrannies. Can't say I have much, or ANY respect for these types. Are you one of them?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I just don't take you too seriously.
1. You know what I'm talking about but now your acting brand new.
2. I can have an opinion on anything I want too.
3. I lack faith remember. I'm an athiest.
4. Palestine's future progressivity is not an issue for me. My political ideology may not be what the people there want. They have to live there I don't.
5. Don't tell me about genuine racism. I've experienced enough of it to know what it looks like. I lived in neo naziville for a while. Besides this is America, a country founded on the backs of my ancestors. Land stolen from my other ancestors. We're still fighting voter ID today. My congressman calls people wetbacks.
6. In this particular forum I am only going to talk about Israel and/or Palestine. No Syria. No Egypt.
7. I'm not a part of an anti Israel movement.
8. I think we should stop trying so hard and spending so much money to remake other countries in our own image. We need to be repairing our own democracy. We have problems here in our country that we whitewash, ignore and explain away. Why should they listen to us? And be like us? We're not perfect and we have different ways of seeing the world. Change comes from within. Given enough time they'll figure out the right way to govern, by trial and error like us. We had a civil war. We had slavery. We had a genocide of native populations. We had the middle passage. It took a long time for us to get to where we are as a country it will take a long time for them as well.
Why should they not be given the opportunity to try to self govern? How are we more deserving of freedom?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I think it's just blacks. My bad I apologize. http://www.yourblackworld.net/2012/05/black-news/israeli-mob-attacks-black-immigrants-netanyahu-vows-to-send-blacks-home/
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Forced birth control? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gave-birth-control-to-ethiopian-jews-without-their-consent-8468800.html
What about this?http://www.irinnews.org/report/94819/israel-the-tribulations-of-being-an-ethiopian-jew
shira
(30,109 posts)Just as there are people who hate women, gays, and jews in every country on the planet. Who here is defending idiot and asshole haters? No one.
Countries should be judged on how they RESPOND to racism and prejudice. They should be judged on whether their POLICIES are discriminatory.
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You're dead wrong about the Ethiopian birth-control scandal...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113446579#post43
That's post #43 above. It shows Haaretz' reporting was misleading & that the GOI is doing all it can to rectify the situation. If you're honest, you'd keep this in mind the next time you attempt to use this to attack Israel.
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The story about the Black Hebrews makes me angry. It's complete bullshit on Israel's part. No way they shouldn't have citizenship by now. I hate that any Jew is questioned by Israel on how Jewish they really are. But I don't think any have been deported. That would be a crime IMO.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That's a large percentage for a small group. Like how in this country most of the people who are stop and frisked are black or brown. I doesnt look good. I'll wait for more details. Remember I used a question mark, I wasn't making an allegation about that I just wanted to see if you could explain it.
It doesn't seem like any country responds well to racism. It does happen everywhere. Good point.
A policy can be written as non racist and implemented with racism. Like stop and frisk. It doesn't say stop black and brown people, but that's what happens.
shira
(30,109 posts)Who was deported? Anyone? Haaretz doesn't even come up with that kind of bullshit. Who the hell was checking on these women every 3 months to see they were renewing their Rx's?
Ridiculous.
There's racism in EVERY western liberal democratic society. What really matters is how the government responds to it, and the government is making sure that cannot happen again. Not all western liberal countries respond like that.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)where ever did you pick that one up? do you have the courage to tell us
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Taking political advice from Israel is like taking financial advice from Paris Hilton; she doesn't understand expense, because daddy buys all her things.
Mosby
(16,263 posts)Paris Hilton has been working since she was a child and her perfume has topped a billion in sales in less than a decade.
Estimates for her annual earnings range from 7-12 million per year and her net worth is estimated to be 100 million.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I admit I don't tend to follow celebrity.
But the point I'm getting at is clear enough 
Home made oil blends can smell sooooo much better, and cost soooo much less.
Neroli, rose, jasmine, sandalwood mixed in jojoba makes a GREAT sensual oil blend.
shira
(30,109 posts)...that is even MORE regressive, backwards, and conservative than Mubarak.......which also happens to be more anti-American, anti-Israeli (and the West) too.
If it's about elections and respecting them, the Egyptian military promised early elections. Hell, the military wouldn't be involved if not for MILLIONS swarming to protest the Brotherhood's brutality in the streets.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Now, we can agree that Morsi made some dick moves. Of course, you were busy licking his taint as he filled the Gaza tunnels with sewage, so let's not pretend you're taking anything resembling a principled stand, first off.
Second, to claim that the year under the leadership of Morsi was worse than any of the twenty years under Mubarak (another whose sweat-spots you seemed to enjoy the taste of) is just flat-out ignorance. No, the year of Muslim Brotherhood rule wasn't even worse than the current two months of military rule.
Know why people were in the streets? Not because of the "brutality" of the Morsi administration - there were protests against his movements against the judicial system (Arabs do have more settings than "servile laborer" and "brutal savage" you know) but also in large part because of the wild price fluctuations for needed goods, primarily fuel. And the minute, the literal minute Morsi was overthrown by the military... those price fluctuations stopped. What we're looking at there is a clear effort to create economic chaos prior to a coup, collaboration between the pro-Mubarak faction and Egypt's oil businesses. It's a mirror of what was going on before Pinochet staged his coup against Allende (since they are neither Jews nor Arabs, I doubt you know who they are. I suggest reading a book.)
Fourth... elections. You know, it takes a sort of pretzel logic and a diseased mind to accept the logic of "a violent coup followed by massacres to liquidate political opposition is okay because elections were promised!" You want an early prediction, Shira? The current "state of emergency" will be extended indefinitely, just as it was with Sadat and Mubarak. The military will remain in power, el-Sisi will continue his reign, political opposition will continue to be purged... and if you think it's going to stop with just slaughtering supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood, you're dumber than I thought. If by some wild chance there are elections, the pro-Mubarak people in power will certainly manipulate them, restricting candidates greatly, and then reporting that whoever their faction's favorite is, won the vote with over 90%.
As for being anti-Israel, you might want to look at Morsi's behavior after taking office. You know hoe politicians abandon campaign promises and old rhetoric as soon as they plop their butts into their seats? No different here. The guy who, prior to the election was a frothy firebrand ranting about Israel... slipped right into the Mubarak-shaped hole of servile shoe-shining for Israel after he gained the presidency. Perhaps even more so, given his open hostility towards the Palestinians.
And now, you - and Israel - are looking at the massacres of hundreds upon hundreds of Egyptians, and cheering and calling their murderers heroes and wonderful people. You're looking at a bloody, violent coup, the imposition of martial law and military governance and the liquidation of political opposition, and giving admiring sighs and fluttering eyelashes. This is after your hair-pulling, shirt-rending, howling rage over the end of 20 years of another brutal, fascist military dictatorship and the prospect of actual democracy in Egypt. It's also on top of your and the Israeli regime's support for the cannibal terrorists of Syria. It seems that whatever causes the most chaos and death among Arabs is what you and Israel will back. Even if it's likely to turn around to bite Israel on the ass (As is very likely with Syria.)
This is also the nation that thought having a coup in Lebanon and creating a Christian state out of the southern half would be a good idea... and who thought funneling money and weapons to Hamas so Hamas could take on the PLO had no way of backfiring. Fact is, even if for a moment we presume Israel has only the best of intentions, we have to realize that their plots and plans are something that a Scooby Doo villain would come up with, and are about as successful. Ergo even on the best day, political advice from Israel should not be heeded.
shira
(30,109 posts)Are you cheering on the Brotherhood's burning of dozens of Coptic Churches?
No?
Then don't accuse me of same. I realize those shit accusations are about all you have (racist, cheering on war) but come on, give it a break.... Argue shit on the merits, don't throw around shit accusations.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)plenty of support there
shira
(30,109 posts)...is that the LESSER of 2 evils prevails & that over time things get better. In the meantime, I can't say I support putting into power the WORSE of 2 evils.
Here's Obama on Morsi's government, stating they're neither an ally or enemy...
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57512039/obama-on-egypt-not-an-ally-or-an-enemy/
The US never said any such thing about Mubarak's government the past 30 years. So obviously, Morsi's government was a step back for US interests in the region.
Duh...it was a step back for Israel, but also the Egyptian people too.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)well 'nuff said 
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)so that's one out of three which unlike two out of three ...........
shira
(30,109 posts)What's difficult about this?
During Mubarak, ally. After Mubarak, not so good for American interests anymore.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)why not before while Morsi was in office?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)A recent field study indicates that the number of Egyptians opposed to the overthrow of Dr Mohamed Morsi as President has risen to 69 per cent. Only around 25 per cent of Egyptians support his current detention, while 6 per cent prefer to keep their opinion to themselves.
The study conducted by the Egyptian Centre for Media Studies and the public opinion group Integrating Egypt is the second of its kind to be conducted since General Abdel-Fatah Al-Sisi, Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, and various political and religious factions collaborated to depose Morsi in a military coup last month.
The aim of the study was to examine the critical group in opposition to President Morsi's detention and the trajectory of the level of support for the 2011 Constitution (approximately 78 per cent) if the current political situation continues. It shows the qualitative distribution of those in opposition to Morsi's isolation, only around 19 per cent of whom are Muslim Brotherhood supporters. Thirty-nine per cent of those opposed to his detention are affiliated with other Islamic factions whereas 36 per cent do not affiliate with any political movements. The liberal bloc and Christians constitute 6 per cent and 2 per cent of the study respectively.
In terms of the qualitative distribution of those who support President Morsi's overthrow, the study indicates that 55 per cent were affiliated with the disgraced Mubarak regime. Nineteen per cent belong to the Liberal movement, 17 per cent are Christian and 6 per cent affiliate with the Leftist bloc; 3 per cent do not affiliate with any political movement.
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See more at: http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/africa/6850-study-shows-opposition-to-morsi-ouster-rises-to-69#sthash.SGN2kQ5J.zvgbxi82.dpuf
the total population of Egypt is 82,500,000 so you could claim that "millions" are cheering the military coup but millions more aren't