Why I’m leaving Israel

[shaayecanaan]

If you asked me four years ago why I decided to make aliya, I would have said that I wanted adventure. The suburbs of Toronto didn’t offer the same zest. If you asked my mom, it was to find a husband, as she had done in the ’70s and my grandmother in the ’30s. Whichever the reason, I am happy to say I was successful at both. I stood atop Mount Hermon, I floated in the Dead Sea and I wed on the shores of the Mediterranean.

By all indicators, I have had a successful aliya. I have created a happy and healthy Jewish home within Israel’s borders. Despite this, I am sad to say that I will be packing the two pieces of luggage with which I arrived and moving back to Canada this winter with my husband.

(blah blah blah blah blah)

Aside from the career options, the disparity between the cost of living and the monthly salary is vast. Whatever language you speak, everyone can agree that Israel is an expensive place to live.

For my husband and I, up until now it was livable. We had enough money to pay the rent, stock the fridge and sit with our friends a couple of nights a week over drinks.

But now as we think about our future and try to match our dreams to our paychecks, we realize it cannot be done.

(blah blah)

If I want the security of a home, I have no option but to uproot my life again and move back to Canada. It may not have the same zest for life as Tel Aviv. It may be colder, quieter and less lively, but it will adequately support my next adventure: a family life.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Why-Im-leaving-Israel-324975

************************

Another intrepid Anglo bites the dust after four years slumming it with the natives. It seems to be the woman usually buckles first. Those goyische Canadians may be cold, distant and as dull as dishwater but they do build some nice houses.

Some interesting remarks in the talkbacks:-

Coming here purely for your personal goals is not Zionist ideology, it's North American individualism ideology, so I believe you are acting congruently. You seem to have been here until you achieved your personal goals, and now that you have, it's time to leave.

Zing.

And this guy:-

Don't tell me to move either because Americans need to feel a sense of community. It is not realistic for almost all Anglos to live in an Ethiopian neighborhood...or Russian...or Israeli...I live in an Anglo neighborhood and no matter where I go it will be more expensive than anywhere else. It is important for my children to grow up in the proper setting, at least a setting I know will be right (and not a gamble). This is something I am not willing to gamble on.

What? You mean the sabras didnt clasp him to their bosom the minute he stepped off the plane? Damn, I guess all those birthright ads had it wrong.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Why-Im-leaving-Israel-324975

[pelsar]

1. whats the problem?

its called freedom of movement.......people get to try to live in different places and for some france is a better fit, for others alaska, for others canada

I dont see the problem with a jew moving to israel, and then realizing after a few years her goals and what the country can offer dont fit

so? are you attempting to hint that israel is not for everyone....wow! what a revelation!
high prices, high taxes, wars every few years, constant external threats, dirty politics.....so Israel is not some paradise on earth?

[shaayecanaan]

2. What interested me

was that not only was she a gormless tourist but both her mother and grandmother apparently tried and failed as well. You'd think that the immigration department would have her family on some kind of blacklist or something.

It is ironic though that the object of this woman's romantic folly and ultimately unsuccessful remedy for her joyless suburban life and sexless Canadian marriage is also the deeply beloved homeland of millions of forlorn Palestinian refugees who sit in camps and finger their old house keys and title deeds and wonder if they will see their old house again.

Do you ever wonder what became of the family that lived in your house?

[King_David]

3. Millions of them were born in countries

That don't allow them equal opportunities and chance to advance and live normal lives within their birth- lands.

[pelsar]

4. blacklist?

You'd think that the immigration department would have her family on some kind of blacklist or something.
huh? people fail all the time...you actually believe its the states business to decide upon immigration based on failure and success of ones relatives?

guess you really like having the govt telling you what to do.

Do you ever wonder what became of the family that lived in your house?
nope for one reason there were no previous residents where i live, it was state land....that means it belonged to which ever govt was governing the area at the time...which means the brits, the turkish.....the romans, the jews and someplace in between you might find some arab rulers

why dont you ask israeli that...after all her kibbutz is built on the ruins of an arab village? i think that should be most interesting...after all she believes your 'on her side".... i think it would be fun to have her eyes opened.

[Israeli]

5. its okay shaayecanaan....

why dont you ask israeli that...after all her kibbutz is built on the ruins of an arab village? i think that should be most interesting...after all she believes your 'on her side".... i think it would be fun to have her eyes opened.

you can ask me anything you want ..... I promise to answer you as honestly as I can .

Do you ever wonder what became of the family that lived in your house?

yes I do ... its haunted me for years .

I was born in 1950 , as children we played in the ruins ...of course we never knew or understood . Over time they were dug up and are now cotton fields or fish ponds .

I dont need you to open my eyes .... my father did that for us , when he thought we were old enough to understand he taught us exactly what happened ...and he was not proud of it shaayecanaan.

Today there are those that try to teach the general public what my father taught us ....this is their website :

http://zochrot.org/en

according to pelsar ....we are an insignificant minority ...but shaayecanaan we are an insignificant minority that refuses to be threatened and bullied by the significant majority ...that cannot handle the past or the truth .

[King_David]

6. You are so righteous ,

You must be very proud of yourself and ashamed of the vast majority of israeli Jews.

You are a light and beacon amongst all Jews and can look down upon those of us not so lucky to be elite like you.

I wish I was an Apistrephe-Zionist , or Post Zionist or a Gold Card American Express member.

I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one night tho.

[delrem]

64. I don't understand your argument.

First of all, Israeli was responding to some very particular and direct provocations from pelsar.
pelsar, interestingly enough, freely admits to being provocative - I like that.

The *only* thing Israeli is saying is that she recognizes the history of the land she lives on, and the near history of that land gives her cause for thought about matters of justice. I don't see how you can go from there to accusing:
"You must be very proud of yourself and ashamed of the vast majority of israeli Jews."

Your accusation is kinda sick, King_David.

[King_David]

74. 'Sick' is your favorite word.... and you think I am awesome? COOL !!!!

delrem (2,732 posts)

67. You have a keen nose for "sickness", King_David.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=47610




In general usage today : The word 'SICK"

Sick


Adjective.

2. A secondary word for awesome.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sick



THANK YOU DELREM :

[delrem]

75. Since I was quoting your (double) usage it's hardly any wonder that you're pleased.

I'm glad to see that your consternation over my use of metaphor has abated somewhat, and you can now focus on developing your "urban" vocabulary.

[shaayecanaan]

13. I'm no better...

I live on land that was brazenly stolen from the Black man about five minutes after the first boatload of redcoats came up the river. I feel bad about it myself, as a matter of principle, I have never purchased any Australian real estate, the prospect of doing so makes me feel slightly dirty.

Some parts of it have been given back, and some more will need to be, and even then there would not have been fair redress. The treatment of indigenous people by Australia was and remains a national disgrace.

Certainly on a geographic basis, the scale of the theft here dwarfs that of Israel, although that is probably no consolation to the Palestinians. The loss of a homeland hurts no matter how small it is.

[pelsar]

15. you feel slightly dirty

wow...i'm impressed both you and Israeli "feel bad" about stealing others land....and thats about it.

so if i claim " i feel bad/dirty" we can all hold hands and sing together? and of course call ourselves all part of apartheid govts?

the apartheid also includes...land ownership laws being different for different people, I assume you agree which makes, as you wrote, Austrialia a lot more guilty of apartheid than israel
_____

you nor israeli actually have the guts to move off of someones else's land.......you just "feel bad" about it, as if that makes it all better......not much action behind the big words, is there?

[delrem]

19. I've read enough, I believe that Israeli would do what's required for peace.

[Israeli]

21. its not really up to me delrem

havent you heard ?

we at Gush Shalom are an " insignificant minority " .

pelsar believes that Bibi will make peace .......

[pelsar]

22. well....will u be vacating your home for the refugees?

isnt that what you want the children of the settlers to do

(i assume that you believe that the settlers of the 1920's who stole the land are similar to the settlers of post 67 who also stole the land.....

whats the difference?

i dont believe shaayecanaan see's any difference between your grandparents 2nd aliya and gush emunim....you're all illegal settlements.

[Israeli]

23. " whats the difference? "

between you and me

this ? ......


Uri Avnery and Adam Keller of Gush Shalom, the Israeli Peace Bloc, sent an open letter to the European Union Foreign Ministers due to meet tomorrow (Sept. 6), calling upon them to persist with their outspoken opposition to settlement construction in the Occupied Territories.

Media reports indicate that settlements and the situation between Israel and the Palestinians are likely to figure on the meeting’s agenda, together with other Middle Eastern issues such as the situation in Syria and Egypt.

“We would like you to know that many in Israel consider your position against settlements to be an expression of true friendship and concern towards Israel” stated the Gush Shalom letter. “It is Israel’s existential interest to come to terms with the fact that in today’s world it is unacceptable to rule over another people by force, confiscate that people’s land and settle on it. The European Union would best help Israel’s true interests by insisting unflinchingly on this principle.”

Following is the full text of the letter.......

Continue reading @

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/events/1378389999

[pelsar]

24. but i didnt ask avnery nor keller......

I asked you how is it that you dont believe you should leave your own home built illegally on holy Palestinian land, while at the sametime you feel the children of the settlers of gush emunim should leave theirs

and furthermore i think you should ask your "allies" here if they see u as being just as much as a settler as those of the west bank?

________________________________________________

i just think your kidding yourself if you believe you can "feel dirty" or "guilty" let a few hundred refugees back home to live NOT in their original homes, since no doubt you will not want to vacate your own home and rebuild theirs and peace will prevail.....

and i think you should read up on your "allies" in the BDS movement, the free gaza movement, the ISM and realize that they see you just as much as a settler as you see the settlers in the west bank.....unless of course you let the 5 million Palestenians refugees back home....

[Israeli]

25. I am well aware of that pelsar ...

...but it was to shaayecanaan that I said.... " you can ask me anything you want ..... I promise to answer you as honestly as I can . " .... and not to you .

" i just think your kidding yourself if you believe ....

and I could not care less what you think or believe .

Anyone wants to read what I think or believe its all there on Gush Shalom's website .

Including ... the full text of the letter

We, Israeli citizens deeply concerned for the future of our country and our region, write you this letter in advance of the meeting of the EU Foreign Affairs Council, scheduled for September 6. Specifically, we write you as members of Gush Shalom, the Israeli Peace Bloc, a grassroots peace movement which was founded in 1992. Ever since then, our movement has been struggling to engage the political system and promote the idea of peace between Israel and its Palestinian and other Arab neighbors. It is our firm belief that Israel’s long-term survival and prosperity depend upon our country’s ability to achieve integration in the region. An indispensable first step would be an Israeli withdrawal from the territories occupied in 1967 and the long overdue creation of an independent Palestinian state in these territories.

In recent years we have become increasingly concerned at the upsurge of expansionist nationalism in the Israeli society and political system. Such manifestations are often given a religious justification through a tendentious and selective interpretation of the Jewish Scriptures. Representatives of such tendencies occupy key positions in successive Israeli cabinets, including the current one. This expansionist nationalism manifests itself especially in a determination to hold on to the territories occupied by Israel’s armed forces since 1967 and a relentless drive to maintain and extend Israeli settlement in these territories. Not only do the settlements constitute a blatant violation of International Law and a major obstacle to any chance of Israel achieving peace with its neighbors, but a big part of our country’s economic resources are annually poured into the bottomless hole of the settlement project, to the great detriment of Israeli society as a whole.

Source : http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/events/1378389999

[King_David]

26. LOL of course it was to shaayecanaan you said " you can ask me anything you want .....

'...but it was to shaayecanaan that I said.... " you can ask me anything you want ..... I promise to answer you as honestly as I can . " .... and not to Pelsar.
.
You consider shaayecanaan a international 'leftist' that only a handful of elitist Israeli Jews have a special relationship and kinship with, and you being one of them, do not entertain questions nor could be bothered to answer from mere regular Israeli Jews like Pelsar.


LOL

I get it

[Israeli]

27. as usual you dont "get it" at all King_David

no surprise there .

regular Israeli Jews like Pelsar

you consider pelsar to be a regular Israeli Jew ?

what exactly is a regular Israeli Jew ?

what exactly is a regular Israeli ?

I consider pelsar to be a regular American born Zionist , much like yourself and shira .

I dont appreciate his attitude or yours ....and I get to choose who I communicate with for whatever reason I choose to do so .

Capisce ?

[King_David]

28. It's called anti immigrant Elitism.

Not nice.

[shaayecanaan]

29. keep on trucking

It wasn't so long ago that american history was told in terms of cowboys and Indians - and the Indians were somehow the bad guys. It is a phase that every country goes through.

[Israeli]

31. thanks shaayecanaan...

I intend to keep on trucking.

BTW ... no apartheid in the Wild West Bank ....no racism either ?

we are all equal ?

right

you need to read this :

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=11651

Yitzhar residents throw stones at IDF-employed Druze driver

Settlement refuses to allow non-Jews in to work • Activists block road and stone car of Druze driver attempting to enter to work at an IDF construction site.

Clashes erupted between a group of right-wing activists and Israeli soldiers and Border Police near the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar on Wednesday, after a car driven by a Druze employee tried to approach the settlement to work at an Israel Defense Forces construction site.

Ironically, the purpose of the project was to develop better security for the settlement, including construction of a barrier to prevent terrorists from infiltrating the community.

The army condemned the violence, which included stone-throwing and property damage.

"We view any attempt to harm our forces trying to protect this community with severity," an IDF source said.

The incident began when a car filled with construction workers approached the settlement, in the northern West Bank near Nablus, to work on an IDF project. The car was being driven by a man of Druze descent and an IDF officer was sitting in the car.

But Yitzhar, with a mostly Orthodox Jewish population, maintains a strict policy allowing only Jews to work in the settlement.

Locals blocked the road leading into the community to prevent the car from entering, and women sat on the road to bar entry to heavy vehicles trying to reach the construction site.

Border Police were called to the scene and tried to move the activists from the road. A small group of masked men surrounded the car and threw stones at it, smashing its windows. They also slashed its tires.

The IDF officer who was in the car was unharmed but was reportedly infuriated by what he saw.

By the end of the day, the building contractor in charge of the project capitulated to locals' demands and replaced the Druze driver with a Jewish one.

Police arrested one of the right-wing activists for throwing stones.

[pelsar]

56. well...explain to israeli...

your view of the right of return...what should happen to her kibbutz that is sitting on top of an arab village. How many Palestenians should be able to return to Israel/Palestine

come on..lets get it out in the open

[pelsar]

47. of course you dont appreciate our attitudes...

Last edited Fri Sep 13, 2013, 02:32 AM - Edit history (2)

you dont like the russian immigrants, you dont like the american immigrants..i would assume you dont like the Ethiopian immigrants, the iraqi immigrants, the Yemenite immigrants, the muslim immigrants........

I get the impression you dont like "immigrants. You probably wouldn't even like your grandparents when they immigrated......
______________

reminds me of a story of a disco a few years ago, that wouldn't let an Ethiopian in. He was on leave with some of his army friends from their unit. that just happen to be Sayeret Matkal סיירת מטכ"ל One of israels top commando units (i'm sure your son might disagree).

once the news was out, the disco was boycotted by the country and was forced to close....seems the country rejected the idea that immigrants are "less equal" than others

[Israeli]

49. the personal attacks from you just dont stop coming pelsar .

you dont like the russian immigrants, you dont like the american immigrants..i would assume you dont like the Ethiopian immigrants, the iraqi immigrants, the Yemenite immigrants, the muslim immigrants........

I get the impression you dont like "immigrants. You probably wouldn't even like your grandparents when they immigrated......

I have already told you not true ... so once again ...
you are wrong wrong wrong pelsar .

It is those American Zionists that politically are on the same page as you , shira and King-David that I keep distance from pelsar .....my society , my culture and my politics dont mix well with yours ....and I think that has been proven by your reaction to my posts .
Face it pelsar ... you dont like us so why in Gods name do you expect us to like you ????

[pelsar]

51. i respect your politics...

Last edited Fri Sep 13, 2013, 05:59 AM - Edit history (1)

i have fought to ensure that you can believe what you want..write it, shout it....convince others, hate the settlers...

i have little patience for those who are intolerant of others, and that includes especially political viewpoints, the kind that you have expressed here.

my society , my culture and my politics dont mix well with yours


One of my best company commanders was a religious jew who lived in gaza....one of my worst was a moshavnik. The religious one was far more tolerant of us non religious and knew how work with us, the other, with whom I had more in agreement politically was an intolerant, and incompetent and didn't last.

my culture, my politics, my israel knows how in fact how to mix with others, because while we may disagree, we will fight together, respect each other and live with each other......that is the least you should be able to do and that is what i expect out of every israeli, no matter how long they lived here. You dont get "bigot" rights just because you were born here.
______


he has the chutzpah to ask me ... " why dont you leave?. "
many israelis have left, when they realized that israel was not for them, you have mentioned that the "left has lost"...that you apparently cannot live with the settlers and maybe the religious (jews? arabs? Christians? that have very different political beliefs that you have), so why stay?

[Israeli]

54. you dont respect my politics pelsar ...

you dont even understand what my politics are all about .

I dont hate the settlers ..... I hate those that murdered Peace and those that murdered Rabin .

Same "those" that murdered Emil Grunzweig .

so why stay?

Why? .... because I want to and I dont have the choises open to you , here I was born and here I will die .... not that I have much of a choice ...unlike you .

When the going gets tough at least you have an American passport

i have fought to ensure ..

wow ... thanks .

we should all get on our knees and worship pelsar who has fought to ensure ?
what exactly have you been fighting to ensure ?

[pelsar]

55. your right...i do have a choice...and i choose to stay.

you dont even understand what my politics are all about .

you believe your politics are so complicated that us avg israelis can't understand them? no, they are in fact quite simple, they are faith based.

there in fact is little daylight between you and the far right, both groups believe in solutions that neglect the actual reality of our neighbors, both depend upon "outside forces" both demand adherence and both show little patience for the "other."

Conversations with the far left is very similar to that of the far right....so just as i offer basic respect to the far right i do so to the far left.

I will disagree with both groups....and my vote will fight them both politically.

But Why dont you ask the other posters here about their version of the right of return? why dont you ask them how they see your kibbutz sitting on an arab village that was ethnically cleansed?

We've heard from one that doesnt believe the sins of the mothers (yours) should not be inherited by the daughter, but there are others here who may not believe so....ask them, should be a rather interesting discussion.

____

what have i fought to ensure?....that israel exists as a safe democracy, like many many israelis from all sides of the political spectrum

[Israeli]

58. what ?

that us avg israelis can't understand them?

you are an average Israeli ?

so just as i offer basic respect to the far right i do so to the far left.

I will disagree with both groups....and my vote will fight them both politically.

Good for you ... keep voting for Meretz then

who the hell do you think the far left are ?

you are so desperate to be one of us pelsar .... its pathetic .

go vote for Naphtali Bennett or Yair Lapid ... if you want to be an average Israeli pelsar ...their politics are yours ....not mine ..and not Meretz .

what have i fought to ensure?....

your so special pelsar

so much so you use your uniform as an avatar :

http://www.israelforum.com/board/image.php?u=162172&dateline=1355511857

well .. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you ...but you aint special pelsar , we all serve ...its part of being an average Israeli

[pelsar]

59. desperate to be "one of you'

Last edited Sat Sep 14, 2013, 02:32 AM - Edit history (3)

no...i'm not desperate to be "one of you".....as far as i can tell "you" those who vote for hadash and are post zionists are a very small minority.....and that is the far left. If i wanted to be a member of that group, i would.

btw..your knowledge of the rest of israel outside of your little kibbutz bubble is lacking, you've shown this several times already. You should get out more, meet the others israelis, the ones who have mortgages, buy food in supermarkets, know the different prices for fruits at different stores, wait in lines at health clinics, cant afford the swimming pool....get to know israelis who have funny accents...maybe you should volunteer to help some of them?

well .. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you ...but you aint special pelsar , we all serve ...its part of being an average Israeli
your wrong; only about 50% of the israelis actually serve, of those about 15% serve in combat units.. about 5% serve in the reserves in general and of those even less in combat units and of those, even less as volunteers. So in essence i am in fact not really the average Israeli... your right. (my numbers are aprox from memory), but i'm not special, there are those who do much more than me.
____

You dont get it...as a post zionist, your the minority of the minority, in asking for outside help from the european union, from turkey, to pressure the elected govt, you've shown that you've rejected the essence of the democratic process, letting the people's vote count for the govt they want. Basically you want those who voted for this govt to be "over ruled", their votes thrown out and made useless....i guess democracy isn't part of the post zionist platform.

At the same time while post zionists are asking for this help, your too scared to even ask your 'friends" here how they define the right of return.

I've asked u that, i've asked a few of them that for you, and apparently your all too scared to be honest about it to each other...if your not afraid, why not ask them?

[Israeli]

60. Thats the way you come across .

...as far as i can tell "you" those who vote for hadash and are post zionists are a very small minority.....and that is the far left. If i wanted to be a member of that group, i would.

I vote Meretz , all of my family vote Meretz ....most of my Kibbutz vote Meretz .
According to you ....so do you
( your wife was right pelsar you should listen to her .)

but i'm not special, there are those who do much more than me.

I'm well aware of that .

You dont get it...as a post zionist, your the minority of the minority

If you say so pelsar , your the expert

Tell you what tho ...when another American born Zionist expert like Caroline Glick feels the need to dedicate an article against us :

http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2012/04/post-zionism-is-so-1990s.php

...... makes me smile , if we have Caroline Glick worried we must be getting somewhere .

I've asked u that, i've asked a few of them that for you, and apparently your all too scared to be honest about it to each other...if your not afraid, why not ask them?

probably they feel as I do ......I'm not in the habit of jumping thru hoops at the command of an American Zionist .

[pelsar]

61. there is an expression for it....

its called be "chicken".....or in the translation....a lot of "paka paka" on your part.

I've asked u that, i've asked a few of them that for you, and apparently your all too scared to be honest about it to each other...if your not afraid, why not ask them

probably they feel as I do

actually they don't...but you dont want to find out, and they dont want to tell you.....
__________

I'm not in the habit of jumping thru hoops at the command of an American Zionist .

You've established your credentials here very clearly as you've claimed your a bigoted elitist, now you've established by refusing to even ask your 'friends" here, that your not so brave. I've noticed you hide behind articles others have written, but dont write what you actually think or believe. Now that part is not surprising.....

this is only an internet site...its doesnt take much bravery to write what you think and believe....(though on your elitism, apparently you have found that courage)....try it

[Israeli]

62. my apologies pelsar ...

I would love to stay and chit chat with you but "chicken" is not on the menu today ....we are all off to our " elitist " pool to celebrate Yom Kippur .... with a BQ of surf and turf ...pork chops and giant shrimps .... its part of my tradition and culture .

Tzom Kal

[delrem]

30. Israeli explained that she was *born* in Israel.

So by definition she's not a "settler". I don't believe in some "sins of their mothers being visited against them" credo, so to my mind Israeli is an innocent. I wouldn't say the same of some american "making aliyah" and settling in what *has to be* Palestinian territory.

If this "settling" weren't out and out racist it'd be a different situation altogether, and that's the inescapable problem.

On the other hand, the links that Israeli passes on are always to some very well thought out pacifist arguments. To my mind the arguments tend to be both patriotic and sound. It's clear that the sound arguments are of the nature "first steps" and there are many more to go, but the steps do seem pretty damn solid.

Sometimes I think the pacifism alone irks some people -- especially those highly motivated by fear. Or, perhaps, employed by the military (but I know many in the military have a "pacifist" mentality).

I'm of the opposite opinion. Israeli's posts show no fear whatsoever.

[King_David]

32. Most of us on the left and Liberal Progressive spectrum

Do not differentiate between those who are born ( or *born*) in a country and those who immigrate or are naturalized citizens.

And especially not in Canada.

Such differentiation is just ugly .

[Israeli]

34. here we kind of " differentiate between those who " ...

...are willing to put their ass on the line ... and those who just paka paka .

at least pelsar put his ass on the line .....more than I can say for you or shira .

[King_David]

35. True I agree ,

I'm talking about differentiating between actual Israelis living in Israel no matter if they were born in the Jewish State as Sabras or immigrated to Israel from elsewhere .

Acceptance of immigrants without prejudice is a left progressive value.

[Israeli]

36. tell it to pelsar ...

not to me .

his post # 16

he has the chutzpah to ask me ... " why dont you leave?. "

I'm not the one with an American passport and dual nationality and relatives in America or anywhere else .

EIN LI ERETZ ACHERET

http://hebrewsongs.com/song-einlieretzacheret.htm

[delrem]

38. The term being discussed was "settler", not "citizen". But you know that.

shee, I eliminated my ignore list and within a couple minutes, BINGO!....
Well, that was a mistake.

[Israeli]

33. I'm not a pacifist delrem...

far from it .

I served my country for six years ...my daughter did her alloted time and my son is a career officer in the most elite commando unit of the IAF .

Israeli's posts show no fear whatsoever

I'm full of fear delrem ....ask any mother whose son is currently serving and you will get the same answer.

[shira]

37. Hmm, we'll soon see how your leftwing friends here react to....

...your family's IDF service. Whether they'll keep quiet or not. You know they're not very fond of the IDF.

Should be interesting to see how they refuse to see eye-to-eye with Israel's most leftwing advocates.

Which goes to prove this isn't a left/right issue....

[shaayecanaan]

40. I've got no problem with it...

I'd rather Israeli's kids be in the Army and have the power of life or death over Arabs than your kids, God forbid.

[Israeli]

43. shira , its the internet ....

friends are people that you have a relationship with in reality .

It is a " left/right issue " and it always has been .

You want to prove that it is all down to anti-semitism .......its not shira .

[shira]

46. If it's a left/right issue, explain why the International Left opposes Israel's Left.....

They don't support Israel's Leftwing Zionists or post-Zionists.

That's pretty much all of the Israeli Left they oppose, as well as the center and right. Go international, and they oppose > 99.9% of all the world's Jews. Only an insignificant handful are anti-zionist.

The only folks who'd be opposed to just about every Jew are anti-semites.

How am I wrong?

[Israeli]

50. show me where the " International Left opposes Israel's Left....."

without sourcing a Right wing web site shira .

How am I wrong?

You are wrong shira ... but nothing I say will ever change your obsession with anti-semitism or your hatred towards all Arabs .
You are Pamela Geller and Caroline Glick personified .

[shira]

52. The anti-zios are opposed to the 2 state paradigm. Whether the zionist or post-zionist version

Last edited Fri Sep 13, 2013, 05:01 PM - Edit history (1)

The post-zionist version of 2 states is still an "injustice" to the Palestinians, who deserve to rule all of Palestine.

You know this and you see here @ DU that even Olmert's 2008 proposal (which you admitted you wish the PA had accepted) is considered garbage by the anti-zios here who believe in full right-of-return. Your version of a limited RoR is considered an injustice to them, and not in accordance with the holy grail that is "International Law".

So the International "pro-Palestinian" Left in favor of full RoR and one-state opposes just about every Jew on the planet that is not anti-zionist. In other words, > 99.9%.

There is a name for people who throughout the past several thousand years were in opposition to all Jews...

Who are these people today who are opposed to all Jews, whether right or left wing, if not antisemites?

[King_David]

39. You must be very proud of your children,

And I am sure they are very proud of you , I would be...

Your kids make great role models for the youth of Israel and also every Birthright participant as well
as every Jewish youth in the Golah in the youth movements such as Habonim,Betar,Maccabim,Bnai Brit,
Young Judea and every Jewish/Hebrew day school....

Kol Hakavod....

[Israeli]

44. thanks King_David

I am very proud of my children .
Although I'm sure they did not give a second thought as to how the "Golah" would percieve their duty to their country of birth .
Last thing on their minds

[King_David]

57. I agree .. Country of Birth is Paramount

Also to the Palistinian "Refugees" born in other countries .
Their should be no exception to the rule that if you are born in a country you become a citizen of that country .

[delrem]

65. Most people don't put the term 'refugees' in quotes, to mention them.

To me that indicates something sick.

I think it's sick for anyone to make light of the nakba, but especially to make light of it in this way where the "inside joke" is that according as Israeli law, to be Jewish is to be a national and have a right to aliyah.

That is sick, indeed.

[King_David]

66. They were born in other countries such as Lebanon

What's sick is that those countries consider them "refugees " and not Lebanese nationals and discriminate against them.

That's sick indeed.

And if a State offers the Jews of Canada an automatic haven just in case in the unlikely event they ever need it ( and history has proven they never know when that may be) then it's between the Jewish Community in Canada and that state and absolutely none of the business of other Canadians who are not involved.... Even if they think they are involved for whatever sick reasons .

[delrem]

67. You have a keen nose for "sickness", King_David.

King_David:
"What's sick is that those countries consider them "refugees " and not Lebanese nationals and discriminate against them.
That's sick indeed. "

me:
Do you realize that Israel follows the principle of Jus sanguinis, "the right of blood", rather than Jus soli, "the right of the soil"? Of course you do. Lebanon follows the principle of Jus sanguinis as well, but in a different variation (paternity). Israel's case shows how Jus sanguinis can be criminally abused, when a people promoting right by blood to the land ethnically cleanse land as they conquer it. This isn't "sick", it's criminal; it's a criminality that refuses to recognize those ethnically cleansed from their land during a war of conquest to be legitimate refugees having RoR under international law.

King_David:
"And if a State offers the Jews of Canada an automatic haven just in case in the unlikely event they ever need it ( and history has proven they never know when that may be) then it's between the Jewish Community in Canada and that state and absolutely none of the business of other Canadians who are not involved.... Even if they think they are involved for whatever sick reasons ."

me:
Unfortunately, and typically, you falsely portray Israel's citizenship law when it comes to the Jewish people. The Jewish people aren't just given "automatic haven just in case in the unlikely event they ever need it", they are given the right to make Aliyah at any time they choose - as Jews they automatically have a "RoR" according as Israel's interpretation of Jus sanguinis. As we see, Palestinian refugees cleansed from the lands claimed by Israel in its wars of conquest don't have Jus sanguinis to fall back on, being of the wrong blood line.

[King_David]

68. Interesting choice of anatomy " keen nose "

The rest of your post makes no sense.

As far as Jewish haven in Israel is concerned I'm not sure it has anything to do with anybody not involved .

I know lots of people think it's their business but I'm afraid it has nothing to do with those without skin in the game .

Once upon a time the Jewish Nation was weak and helpless , but since 1948 we are strong .

[delrem]

69. I know your attitude, King_David.

It's your account of facts that fails the smell test.

[King_David]

70. "Nose" and "smell test"

Interesting indeed !

[delrem]

71. Well, at any rate your friend oberliner thinks your posts are astute.

So you have that.

[delrem]

41. Nobody but a saint is. Remember my context was a response to pelsar's insinuations.

pelsar has been lobbing verbal grenades at you, semantic grenades that suggest that folk (even DUers like me) who stand against the Zionist push to annex more and more Palestinian land, and the Zionist agenda to cleanse the land of the wrong kind of people - to banish them or to corral them in outdoor military prisons (not *called* that, of course! remember Orwell) - will stand against you, since you benefited from the Zionist project creating Israel.

I note that your situation is entirely due to accident of birth.
Speaking generally and concisely as possible: I don't believe in some "original sin" whereby a person, born in a situation, is somehow deemed *responsible* for the situation (that's just one of the *false* Roman Catholic doctrines that I was weaned on - imprinted at some low pre-reasoning level.)

pelsar's grenades, the ones that put DUers like me in the payload, as shrapnel, are aimed at a soft underbelly (fear of retribution from a raving mob of savages, for the nakba) and deny any chance that the road you travel can lead to peace. The claim is that you have no allies and those who promote BDS, who promote fairness equality and peace, in fact just want to annihilate the Jews. That we don't have a concept of justice.

Verbal grenades aren't real, of course. They're like the bombs blowing up lemmings in a game level, a burst of fireworks confetti mixed with cuteness.

I'm not a pacifist either, if that means disrespect for the Canadian military, if that means denial of the sacrifices made. But that isn't what I mean by "pacifist". What I mean by "pacifist" is a person who, in any war or run up to war, prefers a diplomatic solution. I'm not a purist and I can imagine many situations when a pacifist ought to pull the trigger. But if the trigger puller doesn't then feel a need for spiritual healing of some kind, to fully understand the enormity of it, then the trigger puller wasn't a pacifist at all.

Complicated, yes.
Reason coupled with good will, with good faith in "doing politics" - it can't be explained or defined, but it can be experienced. For example people of diverse cultures can get out in mass rallies, for peace, and thus mingle and forge partnerships and understandings. That builds a road to peace.

[Israeli]

45. that is exactly what we at Gush Shalom aim for delrem...

Reason coupled with good will, with good faith in "doing politics" - it can't be explained or defined, but it can be experienced. For example people of diverse cultures can get out in mass rallies, for peace, and thus mingle and forge partnerships and understandings. That builds a road to peace.

[pelsar]

48. sins of the mothers...

so I'm confused then...the settlers in the westbank are now on second and third generation..i.e. they were born there. So they too are not settlers?

If this "settling" weren't out and out racist it'd be a different situation altogether, and that's the inescapable problem.
so are you claiming that what Israeli's grandparents did was not "out and out racist?...at least lets be clear about this.
____________________

My intention, that i believe you touched upon (the verble hand grenades) is clear. If your going to make allies with your "enemies" at least be aware that they will turn on you in the end and the consequences of such can be rather messy.

for instance the BDSM/ ISM movements (and posters here) as their end goal (and they don't hid it) is the return of the 5 million refugees and their relatives. I doubt Israeli would agree to this, at the same time she seems to have an inability to clarify this, or even ask the posters here. That in fact is all I'm asking of her...simply to ask "her allies" here how many refugees should be entitled to return....

furthermore...ever look at Libya recently? you might notice that not only does chaos rule, its fanatical islamic chaos...meaning international diplomacy/warfare is full of unintended consequences (WWI, WWII, post vietnam, massacres, etc etc etc)

so too with "post zionism". Those well thought out arguments have within them a "trust" of international diplomacy, which you might have noticed (at least I do) of ignoring any bad consequences that may happen because of their efforts.

its not to say that all international diplomacy is bad, but when your starting point is creating a dictatorship (PA) in an extremely unstable region, that is presently rejecting those very dictatorships..you've already created a violent mix, before you've even started.

hence my opinion that ignoring the real environment and its very real potential consequences is foolish.
______

now to give Israeli credit where credit is due...she has a belief and an ideology that she understands may cost her dearly and very personally.

[delrem]

63. You say:

pelsar:
"so I'm confused then...the settlers in the westbank are now on second and third generation..i.e. they were born there. So they too are not settlers?"

delrem:
For sure settlement beyond the green line is 100% racist, and especially so because the racist politicians promoting and expanding it are so eager to proclaim it so -- Netanyahu, Bennett, ...

Nevertheless, children born to the racists who initially settled new areas of the West Bank are innocent, however odious their parents motives were and are. It's the fate of humankind that for better or for worse we are born to complex social situations that are not our fault, to an upbringing that we did not choose. I also suggest that the children of these settlers, grown and in their late teens and early twenties and zealously creating "outposts" etc. are very much product of their upbringing in one of the most aggressively racist cultures in the world. Cocooned.

If one is to speak in their language, I don't think it's correct to speak of "settlers in the west bank", but rather, settlers in Judea and Samaria, the place names that the settlers prefer to use and which signify their intentions. These place names go back to biblical times and imprint a strictly religious dimension on the settlement project.

pelsar:
"If this "settling" weren't out and out racist it'd be a different situation altogether, and that's the inescapable problem.
so are you claiming that what Israeli's grandparents did was not "out and out racist?...at least lets be clear about this."

delrem:
That's correct, the racism that defines the situation is the inescapable problem. It follows that solutions to the problem will involve eliminating racism from Israel's law and culture, in particular Israel's distinction between "nationals", that is Jews, and those citizens who don't have the requisite "code", whatever it be, to be a "national". In other words, eliminating distinctions between first and second class citizens.
It should be clear by now that comparatively speaking I don't give a fuck what Israeli's grandparents did, but I certainly do care about the progressive action that Israeli herself is promoting and doing - not least because it introduces a progressive dimension to the discussion in I/P.

pelsar: (For whatever reason, you draw a line and continue)
"My intention, that i believe you touched upon (the verble hand grenades) is clear. If your going to make allies with your "enemies" at least be aware that they will turn on you in the end and the consequences of such can be rather messy."

delrem:
Your premise is incorrect, pelsar. I don't think Israeli has any intention of "making allies with enemies", just as I don't. In the cynical way that you have, perhaps you'll suggest that everyone is an enemy, so even allies will necessarily be enemies, Trojans. And for this reason suggest that promoting the progressive values of equal human rights under the law is wrong.

pelsar:
"for instance the BDSM/ ISM movements (and posters here) as their end goal (and they don't hid it) is the return of the 5 million refugees and their relatives. I doubt Israeli would agree to this, at the same time she seems to have an inability to clarify this, or even ask the posters here. That in fact is all I'm asking of her...simply to ask "her allies" here how many refugees should be entitled to return.... "

delrem:
International justice categorically prohibits ethnic cleansing. Israel is on the wrong side of this and refuses to negotiate a solution to a problem that grows rather than retreats with time. It's the same kind of problem as posed by exclusively Jewish settlers using Israel's resources to build exclusively Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria, served by Jewish roads, rail, air services. As noted above, this isn't a *good* situation to be born into, because one is being born into an ethically untenable situation. So there's actually two "fronts", a certain fright at the very prospect of negotiating matters w.r.t. RoR, even though these matters won't go away, coupled with a rejection of any discussion w.r.t. the ethics of ongoing settlement projects in Judea and Samaria, named exactly that as signature of ownership.
Your own approach, pelsar, is to reject the progressive framework, which is one of negotiation between parties who *will* share the land, in favor of a framework of fear, of threat, of us versus enemy.

pelsar:
"furthermore...ever look at Libya recently? you might notice that not only does chaos rule, its fanatical islamic chaos...meaning international diplomacy/warfare is full of unintended consequences (WWI, WWII, post vietnam, massacres, etc etc etc) "

delrem:
We've all looked at Libya. We apprehend the Libyan war through different filters, and IMO your filter is 100% racist. By that I mean that you filter out actual causes and substitute racist causes.
The current situation in Libya is product of a war conducted by a superpower (the world's only, exceptional, superpower) aimed at regime change, a result that was satisfied after a totally free hand at bombing, the funding and arming of mercenary jihadists either directly or through proxies, and a total disrespect for the Libyan people. The first thing secured by the Libyan war was the oilfields. After which the perps moved on to another target, Syria, and more or less forgot about Libya. The US got what it wanted.

pelsar:
"so too with "post zionism". Those well thought out arguments have within them a "trust" of international diplomacy, which you might have noticed (at least I do) of ignoring any bad consequences that may happen because of their efforts."

delrem:
The US/Saudi front didn't engage in diplomacy with Libya. If you don't actually engage in diplomacy, you have no right to use the word to describe your action.

[pelsar]

72. why ignore facts? so you can claim racism?

i realize it makes your claims of racism easier, but what happens when you dont have racism to claim? what happens when your facts are wrong?
___
For sure settlement beyond the green line is 100% racist,
its been clarified that the settlements outside jerusalem have arabs,christians israelis living within.....hence the settlements are not all jewish, but christian, arab and jewish. (these areas are also defined as "settlements)

do you dispute this fact? are these arab israelis racists?
___________________

acutally i found this rather absurd...
re very much product of their upbringing in one of the most aggressively racist cultures in the world.
clearly your comparing cultures for their racism....do you really want to repeat and stand by this statement? you do realize that i shall then start listing cultures that actually kill and enslave those of different races...or dont even allow others to actually set foot one their land
________________________

I asked a very simple question for both you and Israeli about RoR. As i understand you, for your culturally specific version of justice, you believe all have to return including the relatives if they so desire. Israeli as I understand it for her version of justice, requires perhaps a few.

i just want to know if israeli understands that your version of justice, that is required for any long term peace is at odds with her version of justice.

do you think she knows this?

_____

my view of lybia has nothing to do with racism...its about the international politics and its failure, when its attempts to add "morality or R2P" to justify killing people. When a country attacks another country for selfish reasons, its goal is to quickly establish a govt and stability so that it can control/steal it resources, or have a peaceful border When a country attacks another country for some vague reasons of morality, to "reduce killing by killing" there is no "end"....as we have seen, in the end, there is simply more killing and suffering. Killing for Morality (R2P) is one of the most stuiped ideas i have ever hear, and Lybia is a good representation of it.

Trusting the international community to do the "right thing" the "moral thing" is dangerous......for when they screw up, they just "go home" and leave the mess they created, they have no responsibility.

[delrem]

73. The racism at issue is enshrined in Israel's law. nt

[pelsar]

76. didnt ask that now did I

you wrote
1) settlement beyond the green line is 100% racist,

2) one of the most aggressively racist cultures in the world.

would you like to modify these two statements? or at least admit that you believe that the ends does justify the means and making up shit, demonizing a whole people, a whole country is justified if it means getting closer to your version of justice
____

i do believe that is your real belief, so why not just write it out?

(do i really have to show how those two statements above are wrong and how its designed for the fools who let their emotions dictate what is right and wrong, or the willfully ignorant?)

[delrem]

77. No, pelsar, you didn't "ask that".

Do you only communicate with people who serve what you "ask"?

[pelsar]

78. i prefer to keep the discussions "on target"

you made a few statements, you appear to believe. I disagree and if you have trouble doing the research i'm more than willing to.

it will take about 5 minutes of my time.

so perhaps instead of trying to veer the conversation elsewhere, perhaps you would like to clarify your statements or standby them?

pretty simple question isn't it?

[delrem]

79. The racism at issue is enshrined in Israel's law, pelsar.

Are you equipped to understand that?

[pelsar]

80. thats not what your claimed...is it?

do i have to, for the third time quote what you wrote?

if you would like to discuss israeli law, and ignore your statements just say so.

i prefer however not to let you "off the hook' about your demonization.

or do you prefer that I not quote you and you would not like to repeat what you wrote?

[delrem]

81. The racism at issue is enshrined in Israel's law, pelsar.

I conclude that you aren't equipped to understand that.

[pelsar]

82. For sure settlement beyond the green line is 100% racist,

this is your quote, your wrote it....care to explain how the non jewish settlers are racist? (i.e arab muslims, also known as Palestinians )

[delrem]

84. The racism at issue is enshrined in Israel's law, pelsar.

I'll let you and shira do a two-part harmony of outrage mixed with bafflement, the two poles under which you operate.

[pelsar]

85. you've wrote that 3x ...in order to avoid explaining what you wrote

i assume unlike a different poster, who at least had the guts to explain his use of apartheid was not to describe the environment but to evoke a similar reaction, you are attempting to do the same but lack the internet fortitude to at write something similar.

i can only conclude that your really not interested in knowing (and prefer not to) that some settlers are in fact arab israeli, christian israeli, which by their very existence shows your racist attitude toward israel. (you dismiss the minorities as "non people"- is that all minorities or just arabs?)
___________________________________________________
and just for fun....the question you will not ask, nor do you want to (willfully blind is not a good trait btw), ever consider asking israeli about your version of the RoR and how without it there will be no justice and how she is wrong?

or is that too something you would rather not know about?

[delrem]

86. The racism at issue is enshrined in Israel's law, pelsar.

I'll keep repeating it, too, pelsar - although with no hope in my mind that you'd ever "go there".
Too chicken, you are.

[pelsar]

87. chicken?..on the internet?...

Last edited Mon Sep 23, 2013, 01:39 PM - Edit history (2)

you've got to be kidding.....this thing hardly 'threatens me, or my flexible beliefs.

Your the one, not me that has a problem with answering simple straight forward questions, your the one that wants to change the subject..

i have no problem discussing israeli laws..the good, the bad and the ugly. However, that is a different discussion, one that clearly you would like to go to, to replace your original statements.

so why dont you first explain your original statements about the 100% racist settlers and the comparison study that you did, that puts israel at the top of all of the countries of the world as the most aggressive racists...

and then after some short clarifications and some simple research you can explain why you find it necessary to make up stuff and exaggerate (assuming you'll be honest), and then I'll be happy to go over israeli laws.

there is not a political question or any statement of mine that i will not answer and if not clear i will explain in a different manner, however i expect the same out of you. answer every question as clearly as you can, without repeating and without the classic "i've already answered that"

and since i asked first, will you please explain about the israeli Palestinian arab racists in the settlements?

and if you dont want to answer directly, just say so....this is an internet forum, i promise nothing is going to happen to u if you simply say you refuse to answer.

[shira]

88. How is racism enshrined in Israel's law when Israeli Arabs, Christians...

...Muslims, Druse, Bedouin, atheists, etc.. are free to live in settlements?

Better yet, what's stopping the entire Israeli Arab population in Israel from living in the settlements, if that's what they want to do starting today?

Bueller?

Bueller?

Hello....?

Your non-answers to the simplest of questions is why rational people do not take your silly accusations against Israel seriously. I believe you realize that your views about Israel are nothing but lies, bullshit, and slander. But that's what this is all about for you, isn't it? To slander, slime, and demonize Israel. And certainly not their Arab citizens either. These lies are a means to that end, right? You live for this shit?

Sad.

I don't even know who you think you're fooling. Yourself maybe? What I see in you is an opponent who supports racist, apartheid Palestinian nationalism based on sharia law and subjugation of women, christians, blacks, jews, etc. You say you're for 1 secular state but that's bullshit too. At most, you'd meekly say you're for it and when it doesn't materialize....once that 1-state becomes Arab majority and yet another failed sharia-based society in the mideast, you'll keep quiet and tacitly support THAT over Israel's western, liberal democracy. Cry all you wish, but you're anti-peace, anti-Israel, and in no way pro-Palestinian. You're actually anti-Palestinian too (besides not giving a crap about their treatment under Hamas, Lebanese apartheid, etc.). I mean, if you were pro-Palestinian you'd support what the vast majority of Palestinians support. And if that's one-state, it means a sharia based society similar to the Jordan model (a human rights nightmare for women and minorities). Are you for or against that? And if against and therefore in support of a secular democracy, then what on earth is your plan to see that a secular democracy takes hold there? What are your progressive allies against Israel doing to see that a progressive society succeeds in your 1-state scenario? Not a fucking thing, right? I don't believe for 1 second you're for one secular state as that's just a smokescreen for your anti-Israel hostility. You hate Israel so much, you'd rather see another Syria or muslim brotherhood led Egypt take its place.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Or not....

....and continue to play "internet chicken".

[delrem]

90. The racism at issue is enshrined in Israel's law, pelsar

Now continue playing _Denial_ in two-part harmony with your fellow "liberal" shira.
I've got more important things to do.

[pelsar]

91. I understand cult/religious fanatics....as per your example

Last edited Wed Sep 25, 2013, 03:31 AM - Edit history (1)

in general however i prefer the honest religious ones..when they get "stuck" and dont have an answer they can refer to their god, quote something and eventually say that we can't always understand the ways of god.

however when a progressive atheist gets in to a position of being caught exaggerating, demonizing, making up stuff, they have fewer options. sometimes they just end the discussion and start up elsewhere, far more rare, they will admit it, but claim its for the greater good.

more standard is what your doing....just not answering and trying to veer the conversation elsewhere. You've made some statements that are false, apparently you cant be bothered to defend them hence you simply repeat the same sentence over and over and over again.

kind of like a 5 year old holding their hands in their ears and saying 'la la la la la la"
____

at any rate, your inability to explain/defend your statements are pretty clear.

btw just to explain and this is really like explaining to a little kid: people in democracies have the ability to change laws, reject customs and laws they dont agree with, the govt unlike in dictatorships has even less control over its people in making them do or believe what "they" want. Hence any presumption that liberal democracy can dictate terms and beliefs is either based on ignorence or a preferred belief, neither is based on the actual society....

[shira]

83. Racist! Racism! Zionism is racism! Israel is apartheid! Great discussion there.

sigh...


Meanwhile, if you're looking for real racism in that geographical area, Palestinian Nationalism is racist and apartheid.

1. Palestinian laws exist that make it illegal to sell land to Jews (death penalty).
2. Abbas and his US Ambassador were quoted saying no Jews would be allowed in a Palestinian state.

Unlike yourself, I can back up my assertions. I can defend what I say/write and admit when I'm wrong. I don't mind my views being challenged. It's a Liberal thing... Being open minded...

You should try it.

[pelsar]

14. whos threatening u? who's bullying u?

who 's trying to "shut u up"

you are views are a minority views, so? thats the whole concept of a democracy that minority views get to shout loud and clear for what they want and if they're persistent they might even cause change, affect society as meretz does (the zionist party).......or they might not

i dont believe hadash has ever had much affect to my knowledge, perhaps one day, but they do serve a purpose as platform for a viewpoint......

[shira]

89. challenging them to justify their views is bullying

you'd think once their views are exposed for the bullshit they are, they'd become too embarassed to continue...

but they keep at it like religious nutters. churning out more propaganda, more bullshit...

Is it possible they REALLY, REALLY believe the bullshit they spew?

I guess I could ask that of any religious fundamentalist, actually.

[Israeli]

92. actually no shira ...

when I posted this....." but shaayecanaan we are an insignificant minority that refuses to be threatened and bullied by the significant majority ...that cannot handle the past or the truth ."

I was referring to our Right wing ....and it is not " bullshit " .

Here you go ........

Right-wing group seeks to dismantle Israeli NGO dedicated to Palestinian return

Just weeks after it was deemed to have ‘fascist characteristics,’ nationalist group Im Tirtzu tries to shut down Zochrot for allegedly ‘rejecting the existence of the State of Israel.’

@ http://972mag.com/right-wing-group-seeks-to-dismantle-israeli-ngo-dedicated-to-palestinian-return/79286/

This isn’t Im Tirtzu’s first confrontation with Zochrot; just last month the group attempted to shut down the annual Zochrot conference, to be held at the Eretz Yisrael Museum in north Tel Aviv, on the former site of the Palestinian village Al-Sheikh Muwannis.

Zochrot’s Director Liat Rosenberg responded to Im Tirtzu’s latest attack:

" Despite Im Tirzu’s attempts to erase the issue of Palestinian refugees from the daily agenda, it will remain part of the public discussion, as will Zochrot’s conference on September 29-30 in the Eretz Yisrael Museum in Tel Aviv on the responsibility of the Israeli public to undo the wrongs of the Nakba and to implement the return of the refugees. The real danger we should be worried about is from anti-democratic groups, which have recently been deemed to have fascist characteristics, and who try to undermine the democratic nature of society through bullying tactics."

[shira]

93. Oh, I see....but Zochrot seems to be advocating for full RoR of 5M "refugees"

Isn't an Arab majority 1-state scenario a threat to a democratic Israel? An Arab majority state is likely to turn into yet another Jordan, Syria, or Egypt. And that's fascist.

How am I wrong?

[Israeli]

94. both you and pelsar were wrong ....

about the bullying shira .

Aknowledge that first ..... then acknowledge this :

Nakba is an Arabic word that means “catastrophe.” The Nakba was the destruction, expulsion, looting, massacres and incidents of rape of the Palestinian inhabitants of this country. It was keeping refugees out by force at the end of the war, in order to establish the Jewish state. And it is the ongoing destruction of Palestinian localities, the disregard for the rights of refugees and displaced people, and the prohibition against teaching and commemorating the Nakba in schools and civic groups

Source:
http://zochrot.org/en

[shira]

95. Yes, I was wrong about the bullying. As for the Nakba....

...I have to admit I have little sympathy for the folks who gambled on annihilating the Jews and lost everything as a result. It's not the best parallel, but let's imagine Israel had existed since the 1920's and Germany tried to destroy it during WW2. If Israel won, the Germans would have every right to define their losses as a Nakba, but I doubt anyone in the world would care one wit about it. For proof, take the Sudetenland refugees for example. Millions of them. No one cares one wit about them or their descendants. But who would argue that what happened to them was NOT a nakba, or was not worse than what the Palestinians went through?

So what makes Zochrot legit? They appear to support full RoR and a 1-state Arab majority that would quickly turn into a fascist state. What makes them better than Im Tirzu's fascists who unequivocally support a liberal democracy?

[Israeli]

96. You want " parallels " shira ?

Here is one for you ....

There are those out there that deny the Shoah, for me, they are on par with those that deny the Nakba.

So what makes Zochrot legit?

What makes them not legit ?

They appear to support full RoR and a 1-state Arab majority that would quickly turn into a fascist state.
What makes them better than Im Tirzu's fascists who unequivocally support a liberal democracy?

You have seen this right ?

#t=0


The difference between Im Tirzu and Zochrot is that one says " This Land is Mine " and the other says " This Land is Ours " .

[shira]

97. Zochrot is for BDS, full RoR, and 1-state. You say you're for 2 states....

But you support an organization dedicated to 1-state.

And it gets even worse for you and Zochrot...

NGO that wants Palestinian refugees let into Israel is barred from Ramallah for being Israeli

Eitan Bronstein, Zochrot’s spokesman, told The Times of Israel on Wednesday that his organization was invited by a Quaker-run social club in Ramallah to present a counter-mapping project, dealing with the practical aspects of Palestinian return to abandoned villages within Israel.


The event, advertised on Facebook, garnered more than 100 RSVPs within hours, Bronstein says. But some Palestinians protested that an invitation had been extended to an Israeli organization, however sympathetic to Palestinian goals, considering it an unacceptable instance of “normalization” with Israel.

“Most Palestinian reactions continued to support the event,” Bronstein said. “Dialogue with an organization that supports the right of return and Israeli recognition of the Nakba is not only not ‘normalization,’ but it is moreover vital to create a common Israeli-Palestinian discourse among those who object to the current regime of separation.”

He said the event was nevertheless canceled due to the organizers’ sense that “the atmosphere that was created was not conducive to such an important discussion.”

http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-irony-of-bds-right-of-return-conference-pushed-out-of-ramallah/

So to summarize...

1. You support an organization dedicated to 1-state, even though you say you're for 2.

2. That organization is not only opposed by genuine 2-staters but also the BDS 1-staters who refuse to work alongside them.

My questions to you:

a. Why do you support an organization opposed to the 2-state solution?
b. What's the point of your support when only a handful of people support Zochrot & are willing to cooperate with them?

[Israeli]

98. I'm Gush Shalom shira ....

I support the right of Zochrot to believe what they believe in and to have the right to express those believes .

I also believe this to be true , ....from your link :

“One of the basic assumptions of our work is that the Nakba is the ‘ground zero’ of the Israeli-Palestine conflict,” the website states. “Awareness and recognition of the Nakba by Jewish-Israeli people, and taking responsibility for this tragedy, are essential to ending the struggle and starting a process of reconciliation between the people of Palestine-Israel.”

My question to you .....

" That organization is not only opposed by genuine 2-staters "

Who are these " genuine 2-staters " that you refer to ?
Im Tirzu ?????????

[shira]

99. Okay, so long as you support the right of anyone in Israel to believe....

...whatever they believe and have the right to express it.

If Zochrot were right about the Nakba being ground zero of the conflict, then what about the war the Arabs waged on Israel immediately preceding it? Now war, no nakba.

The people from Meretz and PeaceNow are genuine 2-staters opposed to the 1-state fanatics from the far left and far right. You do know that, right?

[Israeli]

100. I just love it when an American Zionist ....

trys to teach us about our own politics

Here is one just for you shira .... fits you to a T .

http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=61201

[shira]

101. You asked about genuine 2-staters against 1-state BDS-holes....

It's funny how you're so tolerant and accepting of the right kind of 1-staters...

Your kind of 1-staters.



As to Zochrot's support for the BDSM and BDSM being antisemitic, here's a challenge for you: Find an Arab Israeli owned business being boycotted by BDS. It's easy to find Jewish Israeli ones, but find one example of an Israeli Arab owned one.

[Israeli]

102. first you have to convince me that BDSM are antisemitic

Find an Arab Israeli owned business being boycotted by BDS. It's easy to find Jewish Israeli ones, but find one example of an Israeli Arab owned one.

No idea shira ... I fail your challenge.

Could it be that there are no Israeli Arabs living outside of Israel proper except a few students at Ariel University ?
Those that live beyond the wall are Palestinians shira .

Zochrot are not antisemitic shira .

Being against the occupation and facing the cold hard facts of our past and wishing and wanting a better shared future ....is not anti semitism shira .

[shira]

103. BDSM doesn't even support Zochrot since it's an Israeli organization

You seem to think the BDSM only targets Israeli organizations across the green line.

You're wrong. They boycott Ben Gurion U. We both know what BGU stands for. Here's one example.

BDSM doesn't even want to work with Zochrot....

NGO that wants Palestinian refugees let into Israel is barred from Ramallah for being Israeli
http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-irony-of-bds-right-of-return-conference-pushed-out-of-ramallah/

They're against all Israeli firms and organizations (but in particular the ones with Jews in them). Even those within the green line. Again, they do not target Arab owned Israeli business firms and organizations.

Zochrot may want a better shared future, but the BDSM is against that.

BDS is obviously against peaceful co-existance.

[pelsar]

16. than I'll ask......

Last edited Fri Sep 6, 2013, 06:54 AM - Edit history (2)

why dont you leave?...clearly you dont justify the actions taken by your parents/grandparents. Whats the difference between your grandparents and the first settlers in the west bank?..both stole land?

and why dont you ask shaayeanaan what you should do, what would be the right thing to do? find those relatives from destroyed village and invite them back to your home? find them and fight for their immigration and take them as your own?

______________________________________________
i noticed the the website is rather vague about the "Return of the Palestinian refugees " seems it purposely avoids saying "all" can return nor does it define the refugees as the relatives as per the UN or just those who are actual refugees.

The website and movements platform is ignoring the real core physical aspect or the return of the refugees to their homes (your home).....so outside of some "I"m sorry" and other apologies and and a platform of community services and education its pretty much avoiding the main issue that affects everything else:

perhaps you can clarify: which refugees get to return home?

[delrem]

18. I too was born in 1950 and have a similar story.

In my case it was North American, Canadian lands, in what anyone nowadays would admit was "the frontiers". In those days things like "Indian graveyards" weren't considered sacred, to say the least. They could be bulldozed over. If excavation was required, as to build a new subdivision, the bones could be bulldozed away.

First Nations concepts of property rights weren't acknowledged. Except in a remnant fashion, recognition of the First Nations is nil in popular culture.

Israeli, I don't want you, in Israel, to have this problem!

[oberliner]

11. " millions of forlorn Palestinian refugees who sit in camps and finger their old house keys"

Had a feeling that was the angle you were going for.

Did you know that there are some refugees who were forcibly evicted from countries that had been their home for generations who don't "finger their old house keys and title deeds" and don't "wonder what became of the family that lived in (their) house"?

Seems like there could be more productive ways for people to spend their lives.

[shaayecanaan]

12. Yeah

and there are millions of suburban white people who don't pretend that they are anything other than suburban white people.

Four years is not too bad an effort anyway. At least she beat you out by a couple of years.

[delrem]

17. I ask the same question.

As a Canadian I welcome my Canadian sister.
That's the kind of stuff we celebrate, being the kind that likes to celebrate.
And I wish her godspeed wherever she goes.

[azurnoir]

7. Interesting

waaay back when I was a teenager I babysat for an Israeli family, Dad was a cartography student at the U and Mom taught Hebrew to elementary aged school kids, all the parents could talk about was when they would finally be able to return to Israel, so after reading this I did a search for the family and starting with the kids they were both living in the US and apparently had been all along, one was a collage Professor at an East Coast university and the other was real estate guy in Chicago, the Dad had passed away in Chicago, and the Mom was still living-in Chicago, it was unclear whether or not they had returned and come back or just stayed

[King_David]

8. Would make a "good" movie. nt

[azurnoir]

9. why would you say that?

something on your 'mind'?

[shaayecanaan]

10. A bit like that ab rocker i bought off the shopping channel

I'm totally going to use it one of these days.

[azurnoir]

20. To be fair

the time frame that they were going back was late 1973, my family had moved over that summer and I lost contact, it was weird I actually didn't expect to find anything, but seeing pictures of the of the adult I remembered as a cherubic toddler

[Eddie Haskell]

53. Stay!