'Hilltop youth' at Jerusalem yeshiva suspected in string of violent attacks (more rock throwing)

[Violet_Crumble]

Last edited Sat Nov 30, 2013, 02:10 AM - Edit history (1)

I notice there's a recent trend to post OPs about stones being thrown, but for some reason this one doesn't seem to have caught attention, so I thought I'd post it and see what the reaction, if any, is....

A Palestinian resident of East Jerusalem was seriously injured last week when a boulder weighing 17 kilograms was thrown over the wall near his workplace and fell on his back. Four days earlier, his Israeli employer was lightly wounded when he was attacked with an iron pipe and knives.

Both attacks are attributed to students of the Diaspora Yeshiva on Jerusalem’s Mount Zion, with whom the Israeli victim, Arik Pelzig, has a decades-long land dispute. Three yeshiva students were arrested.

Pelzig has lived on Mount Zion since 1970, in the home that his father, artist Perli Pelzig, leased from the Israel Lands Administration, and runs the Harp of David restaurant on the site. In recent months, Pelzig said, he and the Diaspora Yeshiva had been talking and he thought that progress was actually being made toward a “peace agreement.” A document had even been drawn up to divide the contested land. But on November 7 everything changed. That day he began to build a shed on his property in the area adjacent to the yeshiva. At night someone entered his property and destroyed what Pelzig had built. He called the police and also went to the yeshiva.

Near the entrance to the study hall, he was approached by three people. “I went over to them and asked what they were doing, and in response, a metal pipe, 40 millimeters in diameter and 70 centimeters long, landed on my head. At that second you realize that your life is changing, my eyes were filled with blood.” Pelzig was also stabbed in his right hand.

The bleeding Pelzig entered the yeshiva where other students assisted him and called an ambulance. He was hospitalized and received stitches in his head and hand.

Four days later, a few meters from where Pelzig was attacked, Adnan Basila, a 52-year-old Palestinian laborer from Isawiyah employed by Pelzig, was repairing the damage done the previous week when a rock weighing 17 kilograms was thrown from the three-meter high wall from the yeshiva’s property and landed squarely on Basila’s back. He was severely injured and had life-saving surgery at Shaare Zedek Hospital, where he was diagnosed with four crushed vertebrae.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.558875

Hat tip to delrem - for anyone who doesn't have access to premium content. Just copy the article title into Google and you'll get the full article...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

1. Violence is not the answer. Rock throwing is not the answer.

From the Jpost.

http://www.jpost.com/National-News/3-yeshiva-students-arrested-after-Jlem-neighborhood-dispute-ends-in-bloodshed-331839

"This is no longer a quarrel over land, it’s two attempted murders now," says victim of brutal assault.

An acrimonious 40-year-old land dispute between a yeshiva and the man who lives next door culminated in bloodshed and the arrests of three students on Jerusalem’s Mount Zion Thursday, after one man survived a brutal attack and his assistant remains in serious condition.
---
Tuesday at approximately 10:30 a.m. his assistant of over 30 years, Ednan Basila, a 50- year-old Arab man from east Jerusalem, was attacked on Pelzin’s property next to the yeshiva by assailants who threw a 15-kilo rock on his back while he was kneeling to pray.
---
Pelzin, a sculptor who also runs a restaurant and museum on his property, claims that the attacks were ordered by the yeshiva’s octogenarian leader Mordechai Goldstein’s son, Yitzhak, who lives at the school and has aggressively sought Pelzin’s 0.1 hectare of land for decades.
---
On Tuesday morning while Basila, whom he described as “like a son or brother,” was kneeling to pray by the wall separating the properties, Pelzin claimed students from the yeshiva threw the heavy rock on him, breaking his back and severing his aorta.

[shira]

4. Amira Hass and Gideon Levy have justified it. Mondoweiss defends it.

BDS anti-zionists supports such resistance.

Note their absolute and total silence WRT Daniel Seidemann. He's part of the colonial apartheid zionist apparatus to them. In fact, even the Palestinians who came to console Seidemann after the attack said that they had scolded school kids only for targetting Seidemann. If it had been another Israeli, that would have been fine.

Do you think it would have been fine had it been a settler instead of Seidemann?

Seidemann's friends think so.

[Jefferson23]

5. When you accuse someone, post what they have actually said, not your opinion of it.

People can decide for themselves..but that would involve you taking the risk of linking their words
and not merely yours.

Amira Hass brings justification of stone-throwing against violent occupier to US

Philip Weiss on April 11, 2013 15

The uproar in Israel over Amira Hass’s column arguing that Palestinians have a duty to throw stones against the violent occupier is at last coming to the U.S., thanks to Amy Goodman, who brought the great Israel journalist on Democracy Now! yesterday. (I can’t wait for Hass to be paired up with Ben Ehrenreich and Noura Erakat on MSNBC to discuss this stone-throwing issue further– let’s hope).

The interview went beyond the stonethrowing issue to the matter of Israel’s political suicide, the blindness of Israeli society, and the resonance of the Holocaust.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/04/justification-throwing-occupier.html


The inner syntax of Palestinian stone-throwing
It would make sense for Palestinian schools to give classes in resistance: how to build multiple 'tower and stockade’ villages in Area C; how to behave when army troops enter your homes; how to identify soldiers who flung you handcuffed to the floor of the jeep, in order to submit a complaint.
By Amira Hass | 02:34 03.04.13

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/the-inner-syntax-of-palestinian-stone-throwing.premium-1.513131

[shira]

9. You mean post all the support here for the views of Amira Hass & Gideon Levy....

...who justify violence against innocents?

Hell, just ask the supposed pro-Palestinian contingent here. Ask yourself too.

You all love these apologists for cruelty against innocents.

[Jefferson23]

12. Post what they actually say, yes. Your interpretations are self serving, and why

I posted your opinions of Israeli policy.

[shira]

13. Wait - do u guys not agree with Amira Hass?

“Throwing stones is the birthright and duty of anyone subject to foreign rule.."

Do any anti-zios or pro-Palestinians here object to that?

Not only have I never see a condemnation of this at Mondoweiss, Electronic Intifada, etc... (they actually agree with Hass) but I haven't seen anyone here on Team Palestine denounce it either.

All I've seen here is support and respect for Amira Hass and her vile, extremist views.

[Jefferson23]

14. I understand everything she said, which is counter to what you claim she stands for and why.

I understand what you stand for too, shira and why, regarding Israeli policy.

snip*
And, Amira, welcome to Democracy Now! Could you read the article—

AMIRA HASS: All of it?

AMY GOODMAN: —that has caused such a furor in Israel?

AMIRA HASS: OK, if you want.

“Throwing stones is the birthright and duty of anyone subject to foreign rule. Throwing stones is an action as well as a metaphor of resistance. Persecution of stone-throwers, including 8-year-old children, is an inseparable part—though it’s not always spelled out—of the job requirements of the foreign ruler, no less than shooting, torture, land theft, restrictions on movement, and the unequal distribution of water sources.

“The violence of 19-year-old soldiers, their 45-year-old commanders, and the violence of bureaucrats, jurists and lawyers is dictated by reality. Their job is to protect the fruits of violence instilled in foreign occupation—resources, profits, power and privileges.

“Steadfastness (Sumud) and resistance against the physical, and even more so the systemic, institutionalized violence, is the core sentence in the inner syntax of Palestinians in this land. This is reflected every day, every hour, every moment, without pause. Unfortunately, this is true not only in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and Gaza, but also within Israel’s recognized borders, although the violence and the resistance to it are expressed differently. But on both sides of the Green Line, the levels of distress, suffocation, bitterness, anxiety and wrath are continually on the rise, as is the astonishment at Israelis’ blindness in believing that their violence can remain in control forever.

“Often hurling stones is borne out of boredom, excessive hormones, mimicry, boastfulness and competition. But in the inner syntax of the relationship between the occupier and the occupied, stone-throwing is the adjective attached to the subject of ’We’ve had enough of you, occupiers.’

“After all, teenagers could find other ways to give vent to their hormones without risking arrests, fines, injuries and death.

“Even if it is a right and duty, various forms of steadfastness and resisting the foreign regime, as well as its rules and limitations, should be taught and developed. Limitations could include the distinction between civilians and those who carry arms, between children and those in uniform, as well as the failures and narrowness of using weapons.

“It would make sense for Palestinian schools to introduce basic classes in resistance: how to build multiple 'tower and stockade' villages in Area C; how to behave when army troops enter your homes; comparing different struggles against colonialism in different countries; how to use a video camera to document the violence of the regime’s representatives; methods to exhaust the military system and its representatives; a weekly day of work in the lands beyond the separation barrier; how to remember identifying details of soldiers who flung you handcuffed to the floor of the jeep, in order to submit a complaint; the rights of detainees and how to insist on them in real time; how to overcome fear of interrogators; and mass efforts to realize or to materialize the right of movement. Come to think of it, Palestinian adults could also make use of these lessons, perhaps in place of their drills, training in dispersing protests, and practice in spying on Facebook posts.

“When high school students were drafted two years ago for the campaign of boycotting settlement products, it seemed like a move in the right direction. But it stopped there, without going further, without broadening the context. Such lessons would have been perfectly in tune with the tactics of appealing to the United Nations—civil disobedience on the ground and defiance of power in diplomacy.

"So why are such classes absent from the Palestinian curriculum? Part of the explanation lies with the opposition of the donor states and Israel’s punitive measures. But it is also due to inertia, laziness, flawed reasoning, misunderstanding and the personal gains of some parts of society. In fact the rationale for the existence of the Palestinian Authority engendered one basic rule in the last two decades—adaptation to the existing situation. Thus, a contradiction and a clash have been created between the inner syntax of the Palestinian Authority and that of the Palestinian people."

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Thank you, Amira Hass. Can you talk a little, now that you’ve read the piece, about what surprised you in the responses that you received when the piece was published, including from, as you said, Israeli liberals?

AMIRA HASS: Yeah, and also Palestinians. What surprised me is that I’ve been writing this—I mean, these kind of things, I’ve been writing in the past, as well, about the right to resist. So, we’ve—with some friends, we’ve come to the conclusion that usually they read it only—they read only the first sentence—I mean, that now the difference is that I wrote it on the first sentence and not in the middle of the article, which means that so far they have read only the first sentence, and not... Then—then I was surprised with my surprise, because, after all, you know, I know that any hegemonic group sees its hegemony and the violence it uses for the hegemony as self-evident, as a natural thing, and will do everything possible to protect this hegemony and the violence that is combined with the hegemony. So I shouldn’t have been surprised.

AMY GOODMAN: You say that Palestinians responded, as well as Israelis.

AMIRA HASS: No, I got many support, but some Palestinians neglected the fact that I make a distinction between, you know, targeting civilians and targeting soldiers.

AMY GOODMAN: What do you mean?

AMIRA HASS: They don’t—they didn’t relate to this distinction that I make between civilians and—

AMY GOODMAN: Why?

AMIRA HASS: Because—because many of this—because this needs more—making distinction needs much more planning, needs much more thought, needs much more effort, and this is more difficult. So people know that there has not been much of a distinction between civilians and soldiers, and different especially in the use of arms. So, others—others do mention it. I mean, it’s not—somebody—I just got an article today of someone who wrote we’re just not—I mean, "You are remaining an occupier and an imperialist or colonialist, whatever you say, whatever you do." So, also this is a reaction. But—

NERMEEN SHAIKH: And what about the fact that you advocate nonviolent resistance?

AMIRA HASS: I don’t like the term "nonviolent resistance," yes.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Oh, I’m sorry. I don’t know what the exact phrase is in this.

AMIRA HASS: Yeah, yeah, no, I’ll tell you why: because it puts the onus of being nonviolent on the occupied rather than on the occupier. And it has the ring of how we please the West in their demands of how to do.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: How is it that you phrase it? Is it "civil disobedience"?

AMIRA HASS: I phrase it "unarmed."

NERMEEN SHAIKH: "Unarmed."

AMIRA HASS: And "popular resistance," "popular resistance." And as we saw with the Second Intifada, armed resistance—or, it wasn’t really resistance, in my eyes, but the use of arms always keeps away the majority of the population. So it’s only—it’s a very masculine, it’s a very macho phenomenon that is—mostly, I say, it is the competition over whose is bigger.

AMY GOODMAN: Amira Hass, you talk about schools should—in Palestine, should have to teach resistance.

AMIRA HASS: Yeah, yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: Explain

AMIRA HASS: You see those kids going throwing stones, as I say, it’s their right. And then they’re being arrested by the hundreds every month. They should be equipped also with the knowledge how to face an interrogator, what are your rights, what lawyer to call when you are arrested. This should be part of the curriculum. Or, you know, going to the demonstrations against the separation wall shouldn’t be only the task of the villagers who suffered from the separation wall. Why not have one week or one day a month or one day in the week—I don’t know—each school going to work with the farmers who have land beyond the separation wall, insist on going—

AMY GOODMAN: You know, for most people who are listening to this—

AMIRA HASS: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: They have no idea what you mean when you say the separation wall.

AMIRA HASS: Oh. Even 10 years after?

AMY GOODMAN: You live in it—

AMIRA HASS: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: But I would say most people don’t.

AMIRA HASS: It’s part of Israeli—as a response to the suicide attacks of the Second Intifada, Israel decided to build a separation wall between Israel and the West Bank—only that it is deep into the western Palestinian—Palestinian territory. In some places it’s a fence, very offensive fence; in some places it is a wall, a wall of concrete. Only that the idea to have a wall started or this barrier started from before the Second Intifada, so idea in June 2000, so before the Second Intifada started. Anyway, this was taken by most of the Israelis as the right thing, as the right way to respond to the suicide attacks. The thing is that it’s deep into the western West Bank and cutting away many, many—a lot of dunams away from Palestinians. It separates Palestinians from Palestinians, Palestinian communities from their land, Palestinians’ villages from cities, etc. So this is—but it’s not—and the separation wall actually materialized restrictions on movement that existed already from before.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: One of the things that you also suggest is that, as against what most people believe, U.S. support for present Israeli policies do not actually work for the benefit of Jews in the region. Could you elaborate on that, because I think that’s rather uncommon a view?

AMIRA HASS: Yeah, yeah. This is also one of the things that’s always astonished me, that people who say that they care for Israel actually assist Israel and Israelis to nurture what I call their suicidal—suicidal character or instincts, because if people think that we can live in that region—we are a minority in that region—so to live forever, for hundreds of years, as a society which is taken as a foreign outpost and as a messenger of another—of a big power, and only rely on our military superiority, I think this is real shortsightedness. This is what I call the suicidal—this is how I see Israel as suicidal. Palestinians and Arab peoples have shown over the past 20 years their willingness to accept this society in the region, but provided it is not a hostile society.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: But there are many people who would argue against that, who say precisely that’s not the case, that the problem is that Arab states have not been sufficiently—

AMIRA HASS: No, there is the Arab—look, we are nearing a situation where many, many—when people start to withdraw from this. They say, "We have—there was a peace process or a peace accord. It’s the Oslo. And what did Israelis—Israel show? That they are only after more land, more colonialist endeavor, more confiscation of land." And actually, Israel built in the—under the guise of a peace process, what Israel managed to make is a group of bantustans, Gaza apart, and then now they work on making bantustans or consolidating the bantustans, the enclaves, or reservations, if you will, in the West Bank, separated from each other, or not separated but thinly connected to each other within an ocean of Israeli-controlled land. So, in the past 20 years, Israel has given many reasons to people—to those who always doubted Israel’s intentions, it has given them many reasons to continue in doubt it and say, "No, we cannot." But still, I just saw a poll today. Still, Palestinians, the majority of Palestinians, believe that—in a popular struggle against—popular, which means unarmed, struggle against this occupation. And—

AMY GOODMAN: Do you see a one-state or a two-state solution as the most likely outcome right now?

AMIRA HASS: Now, nothing is likely, neither-nor. So—

NERMEEN SHAIKH: What’s a desirable outcome?

AMIRA HASS: I joked, and people take me seriously. I said, if to dream, then I would dream about the United Socialist States of the Middle East.

AMY GOODMAN: You’re the daughter—

AMIRA HASS: If you want to know.

AMY GOODMAN: —of Holocaust survivors.

AMIRA HASS: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: We talked about this a little in part one of this interview. You have written a book about your mother. Talk about how that shapes your view of—

AMIRA HASS: It was my mother’s diary, and I added two chapters to them, my mother’s diary in Bergen-Belsen, in the concentration camp, yeah. So that’s not—it was published by Haymarket. Look, the influence is—my parents were leftists, not only Holocaust survivors, and the two were clear—it was a natural combination that you can—what you conclude, that you are—that you resist—first, about the right of resistance. I mean, if I learned from anyone about the right to resist oppression, I learned it from my parents because of this, of their history—and without making comparisons. It doesn’t—it’s not important. But, I mean, the legacy of African Americans fighting against slavery, the legacy of South Africa, and also what I—the legacy of also people in the ex-Soviet Union, in the Soviet Empire, fighting against their oppression, this is part of the legacy. Not only—not just nationalist—our nation’s history is our legacy.

AMY GOODMAN: When you were honored in 2009 by the International Women’s Media Foundation, it was a very fancy banquet. Hundreds of people were there. I also was there. Christian Amanpour introduced you, talked about your courage, your truth telling. And you won the lifetime achievement award. When you got up, you responded to lifetime achievement.

AMIRA HASS: Yeah, I said it was lifetime failure.

AMY GOODMAN: Why?

AMIRA HASS: Well, writing for 20 years, and you realize that it doesn’t—these words don’t change and not—and the situation is only worse. And if I wanted to appeal to Israelis and to tell them—to be kind of a messenger and give them the facts, you know, not—it’s only lately that I started with op-eds—or not lately, but my main task is to give facts. And then you realize that people do not want to read. And I always say the problem in Israel is not institutionalized censorship. We don’t have censorship, or to a great—maybe some military, but not that serious. We can write whatever we want, and we have—we can exercise this right of information. But the people don’t have the duty to know. And that’s maybe the failure.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: You also said that 20 years ago there was still some shame in Israeli society, because there was some set of ethics and values that contradicted the occupation, but that has completely eroded over the years.

AMIRA HASS: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Can you explain that? Why did that occur? Why did these values erode?

AMIRA HASS: Well, you know, you have new generations. You get used to the situation. You benefit from it. You see that there is no—the world is not shocked by it. That’s it. I mean, people—you know, the world is demanding Palestinians to be nonviolent, but it’s not demanding Israel to be nonviolent. You know, Obama came, and he spoke about Israel being threatened by Gaza, which is—this is such a—

AMY GOODMAN: When he last visited.

AMIRA HASS: Yeah. It is such a—how would I describe it? It’s absurd. It’s an absurd, to describe this, to accept this kind of balance, as that Israel is being threatened by Gaza. So, yeah, people have—you have new generations. You have youngsters who have no idea that there was a situation—a different situation 30, 40 years ago, 45 years ago, actually. I mean, 25 years ago, still, the majority of the Israelis lived—before all—yeah, you know, like they—without this occupation.

But let’s not—I mean, let’s not forget that it’s not only the Green Line that—I mean, it’s not only—the problem is not only in the West Bank. The problem is institutionalized discrimination against the Palestinians and a systemic dispossession of these people from their land and homeland. And with the years, it becomes clearer and clearer that it is this—a plan. It is not by accident. I mean, if it started by accident, if we had the benefit of the doubt at the beginning that it started because of certain circumstances, it becomes more and more entrenched in Israeli policies.

And this is what endangers the—it is what endangers the existence and the future of the Jewish community. This is what drives me mad. I mean, you know, people do not believe—but of course I care for my community. And maybe it’s time to—it’s what Palestinians very often ask me, a very similar question. They say—when they are stupefied by this Israeli blindness, they say, "Don’t Israelis think about their grandchildren?" And I think it’s a very compassionate and telling question, and valid.

AMY GOODMAN: You’re heading to Brazil, Amira Hass. Why are you going there?

AMIRA HASS: I was invited to give some talks to Jewish groups and Jewish youth, which I don’t know much about, so [inaudible]—

AMY GOODMAN: And what—what is the message you will convey there?

AMIRA HASS: That if they care for the existence of a Jewish community in that region, they should not support Israeli policies.

AMY GOODMAN: Amira Hass, I want to thank you for being with us. I would like to talk to you when you come back from Brazil on your way back to Israel.

AMIRA HASS: Insha’Allah.

AMY GOODMAN: Amira Hass is Haaretz correspondent from the occupied Palestinian territories, the only Jewish-Israeli journalist to have spent almost 20 years living in and reporting from Gaza and the West Bank. This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.
GUEST

Amira Hass, Haaretz correspondent for the occupied Palestinian territories. She is the only Jewish-Israeli journalist to have spent almost 20 years living in and reporting from Gaza and the West Bank.

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/4/10/israeli_journalist_amira_hass_on_palestinian_resistance_peace_talks_and_us_foreign_policy_pt_2

[Violet_Crumble]

17. I can't find a copy of the article to read.

I wouldn't mind having a read of it, so if you or anyone else here does have a copy could you PM me a link or the text of the article?

[Jefferson23]

19. In my post#14, Amira reads her entire OP for Democracy Now.

Also, the interview on Democracy Now is a good one as Amira speaks about the uproar that
came from the OP....hope that helps.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. Thanks. I don't think Shira's ever read the actual article...

Because when she's reading it, at about the 4:40 mark, Amira Hass reads:

'Even if it is a right and duty, various forms of steadfastness and resisting the foreign regime, as well as its rules and limitations should be taught and developed. Limitations could include the distinction between civilians and those who carry arms, between children and those in uniform, as well as the failures and (not sure what that word was) of using weapons.'

At no point does she advocate or even condone the throwing of rocks at civilian cars, which is what Shira's been repeatedly falsely claiming.

[Jefferson23]

21. Exactly...thank you. n/t

[shira]

22. Hass didn't write that "Limitations SHOULD include the distinction"....only that they "COULD".

When asked about the little baby girl Adele Biton, she coldly responded without any empathy whatsoever:

NERMEEN SHAIKH: But the criticism of this piece, in particular, was quite widespread. And I want to turn to one of the critics of your article. This is Adva Bitton, the mother of three-year-old Adele. Adele, the three-year-old, was critically injured in a stone-throwing incident last month. And the mother wrote in the Hebrew daily Ma’ariv, quote, "I agree with you that everyone deserves their freedom. Arab and Jew alike. I agree with you that we all ought to aspire to liberty, but there isn’t a person on earth who will achieve freedom and liberty by means of an instrument of death. There’s no reason on earth that Adele, my three-year-old daughter, should have to lie in the intensive care unit now, connected to tubes and fighting for her life, and there is no reason, Amira, for you to encourage that." Can you—

AMIRA HASS: Yeah.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: —respond to this?

AMIRA HASS: [font color = "red"]No, I don’t want to respond.[/font]

AMY GOODMAN: What happened? What happened to her daughter?

AMIRA HASS: She drove—she visited friends or family in one of the settlements in the West Bank, and while they were driving back home, some kids from a village are said to have thrown stones, and one hit—one hit her. She made a turn, and she bumped into a truck, and they were wounded, yes.

[font color = "red"]I don’t think I have to respond to this. It’s her pain[/font], and I don’t—like, people could come and bring the stories of hundreds of Palestinian children who are killed and wounded by Israeli [inaudible], by Israeli bullets and by Israeli tear gas and, I don’t know, whatever. I’m against asymmetry. And I think that I explain very well in my article the differences and the distinction that one has to take.

But the fact is that Israelis—I mean, that we maintain our hegemony with the use of almost unlimited power—I mean, with unlimited institutional power against the Palestinians. And Palestinians have tried many ways—diplomatic ways and other ways—to resist this Israeli domination, and it has not succeeded. Stone throwing is a sort of a message, and the Israelis don’t listen to it. Twenty-five years ago, with the First Intifada, Israelis did listen to this message. I mean, they did understand that this is a message of—it’s not in order to kill, it’s not in order to hit somebody, but it’s in order to tell: "You are unwelcome visitors in our midst."

What a vile, heartless woman.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. So now yr going to quibble over two very similar words?

And ignore that you've falsely accused Amira Hass of supporting attacks on civilians when she didn't say that at all.

Yr so desperate to smear anyone who doesn't agree with yr hardline views that yr now dragging up something else that doesn't show what you feverishly insist it does. Having talked to someone who lost a child in a suicide bombing, not responding to them isn't a sign of lack of empathy, but a choice made to not further upset the bereaved parent. You'd have to be someone who understands empathy first to be able to talk about its presence in other people...

It's not Amira Hass who's the vile, heartless woman, btw...

[shira]

27. "Quibbling about two very similar words"? That's lame even for you, Violet.

I expect that weak crap from others here. Amira Hass chose her words carefully. Give her credit for that.

But besides that, Hass had a chance in the democracynow interview to demonstrate what kind of rock-throwing counted as Palestinian resistance via their birthright and duty.

She blew off the Adelle Biton attack when she could have made herself very clear about attacking civilians.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. I would expect that someone who struggles with comprehension would react like that...

D'uh. She was saying what could be included in any of that training she mentioned. I'm really not seeing what yr having head explosions about, except that yr so utterly desperate to smear anyone you don't like.

Let's face it, Shira. Even if Amira Hass took out a full page ad in Ha'aretz saying 'I OPPOSE ATTACKS ON CIVILIANS' you'd come straight here whining with something like this: 'she's lying and she really means the opposite and see how she didn't say ALL civilians? If she really meant it she would have published it on the first page, not page 5! Vile, heartless woman!!!'

She has made it clear to people that she does see a distinction between civilians and soldiers, something I see you've struggled with in the past.

[shira]

38. Her cold reply to the Adele Biton attack on DemocracyNow exposes her nasty views....

...for what they are. To this day, she hasn't come out publicly against that attack. She's had the opportunity and has deflected from it. And you're running interference for her.

[Violet_Crumble]

40. That wasn't a cold response...

A cold and heartless response to something is for example when someone arrives in a thread that for a change is about a Palestinian almost murdered by a boulder being dropped on him, getting out a sentence or two of mild 'that's awful' stuff, and then in the same post producing a torrent of words about how everyone else is a hypocrite, a bigot, and heartless and cruel when it comes to rock attacks on civilians...

I don't know or care what she publicly speaks out about. She's a journalist and you don't get to dictate what she should or shouldn't write about. But seeing you do care what journalists and other figures do, how about you go take a look and come back and show us where yr hero from PMW has ever condemned specific attacks on Palestinians. I can already hear the 'but he's different!'

'Running interference' is actually pulling you up on the falsehoods you've been spreading since you derailed the OP I started...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

7. Since you continually misread

the simplest of sentences may I suggest a trip to the eye doctor for you? Try rereading what I wrote while you enjoy a nice cup of bile.

On edit: i'll write it again so you have something to chew on.

Violence is not the answer. Rock throwing is not the answer.

Apartheid and colonialism are definitely not the answer.

[shira]

8. You support those who justify and defend rock-throwing at innocents...

Sorry, but you've all but twisted yourself into a pretzel with all your lies and contradictions.

Your mask slipped.

Deal with it.

==========

When you guys come straight out, condemning Amira Hass, Gideon Levy and their BDS friends for justifying violent attacks on innocents then perhaps you can be believed.

When you condemn Seidemann's friends who were against rock-throwing at Seidemann but in favor of it against average settlers, then maybe you can be believed.

You won't do it b/c those extremists hold the same views you do. You'd be condemning yourself.

==========

This is one reason none of you here can find any elected Dems in the Congress and Senate who hold similarly twisted views. They're not extremists for violence against innocents like you guys are here. They're not apologists who justify such behavior and then lie and claim they're against all violence when pressed on the issue.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

10. I don't support rock throwers so I'll ask

you to make a retraction.

[shira]

11. So why not simply come out and condemn the extremist views of folks like Amira Hass....

...who call for such violence?

If you could condemn western extremists who call for such violence from Palestinians, I'd have reason to believe you're actually against such cruelty to civilians.

And I have to retract now? Or else what?

Seriously?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

16. Shira, I don't answer to you regarding anything.

But I will suggest to you a second time not to accuse me of things that I haven't done.

[shira]

3. Awful. There needs to be a stronger response to all this.

Last edited Sat Nov 30, 2013, 09:47 AM - Edit history (3)

I don't know how anyone can survive after a 17kg boulder falls on their back.

All this stone throwing is attempted murder and should never be defended or justified when either side's extremists do it. Unfortunately, there are many who defend and justify this type of attempted murder, and then deny it when pressed on the issue:

Amira Hass brings justification of stone-throwing against violent occupier to US

Philip Weiss on April 11, 2013

The uproar in Israel over Amira Hass’s column arguing that Palestinians have a duty to throw stones against the violent occupier is at last coming to the U.S., thanks to Amy Goodman, who brought the great Israel journalist on Democracy Now! yesterday. (I can’t wait for Hass to be paired up with Ben Ehrenreich and Noura Erakat on MSNBC to discuss this stone-throwing issue further– let’s hope)....

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/04/justification-throwing-occupier.html

More Phillip Weiss quoting from Gideon Levy's defense of Amira Hass...
http://mondoweiss.net/2013/04/palestinians-passover-support.html

Cue the hand-wringing apologists who will tell us how they don't justify or support this "unarmed, non-violent" resistance against innocent civilians....it's just that they just love Amira Hass, Gideon Levy, Mondoweiss.



Note that Mondoweiss, ElectronicIntifada, the BDS hooligans, ISM, etc... has not written a word about Daniel Seidemann getting hurt by a rock. Why would they? BDS folks support such rock-throwing and do not think much of Seidemann, who they see as a racist zionist, not much better than Avigdor Lieberman.

Pity that we have such BDS anti-zionist supporters of extremism here.

[Jefferson23]

6. This from a poster who does not acknowledge Israeli policy as provocation.

And no, I don't believe PMW style Palestinian hate and incitement is due to Israeli policy, since it existed well before 1948. I think it's pathetic that you place the blame for such genocidal Jew hatred on Jews themselves.

As to my own criticism and condemnation of Israeli policies, I don't have any problem condemning any of their immoral, unjust, or illegal actions. I support real liberals who advocate on behalf of both Israelis and Palestinians and fight against that. It appears that you, OTOH, either fear criticizing Palestinians or you're not at all bothered by what they do (like in the PMW videos). ( end)



http://www.democraticunderground.com/11345414#post16

Which Israeli policies do you object to, and find immoral and or illegal? The Prawer Plan is not one of them,
you made that clear recently.


on edit for clarity.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. It didn't take you long to hijack this thread and talk about anything else but the OP...

Uh, yr outrage at journalists and the ISM (the ISM, of course have fuck all to do with the subject of the OP) far, far outweighs yr 'outrage' at the attack on the victim of the boulder attack...

[shira]

23. You guys support vile groups that encourage and justify stone-throwing @ innocents....

I'm just pointing out the ugly hypocrisy.

All the BDS, supposed anti-apartheid groups not only oppose any normalcy b/w Israelis but also encourage and justify such resistance to occupation. None have ever come out in condemnation of these cruel acts. Danny Seidemann was just hit with a rock, but you won't find one BDS affiliate out there expressing any condemnation of that hate act.

You're not going to find it either. Remember that they're against any normalcy b/w Palestinians and Israelis. They hate Seidemann.

But such are the extremist groups u and yours here support.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. If yr going to hijack a thread, at least be honest when you do it...

Don't just sit there and repeat the same untrue crap you've been spewing all over this thread. You've lied about other DUers views, even though they correct you on it and you've not been honest about Amira Hass.

It's revolting that you think abusing other DUers and fabricating crap about them and anyone who dares to support the Palestinian cause is far more important than talking about a brutal attack with a boulder on a Palestinian...

[shira]

25. I am being honest. You're not. Hass absolutely encourages & justifies....

...stone-throwing.

She never wrote there should be limitations to rock throwing that would exclude civilians.

Hass had a chance to be humane about the Adelle Biton tragedy in the DemocracyNow interview, but she chose to be cold and rude about it.

None of this is surprising given that she hates living among Jews:

http://rabble.ca/news/2011/10/revulsion-repression-conversation-amira-hass

"To tell you the truth I cannot see myself living in a purely Jewish environment. I will not be able to move back to an Israel if I had to, and to live in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem.... I told my Palestinian friends, who are Israeli citizens, okay if I am kicked out of Ramallah, I will go and live in a Palestinian neighborhood, in Israel itself."

Why don't u start being honest about Amira Hass?

[Violet_Crumble]

28. No, yr not. Just like you've not been honest about my views here at DU...

Amira Hass did not, as you claim, advocate or even condone attacking civilians. Anyone with a reading comprehension level greater than a two year old can see that. Which is why yr getting so confused and thinking 'should' and 'could' are two entirely different things.

You were either dishonest about or totally incapable of reading what she wrote in that article. Now you've been busted at it while you feverishly derail a thread about a Palestinian who was a victim of a brutal rock attack. And not content with people catching you out on yr first untrue smear, you go ahead and create another one, and then post an excerpt that doesn't even say what you says it does...

This is what you say she said:

None of this is surprising given that she hates living among Jews:

Except that's not what she said:

To tell you the truth I cannot see myself living in a purely Jewish environment.

I know how slow you are to grasp simple things like that, but she's quite happy to live among Jews if the environment isn't a purely Jewish one. That's very different than saying she doesn't want to live among Jews...

Shira, given the fabrications you invent constantly about me, other DUers, and anyone who dares not have the same hardline stance as you on the conflict, yr the last person in the world to be telling someone else they're a liar...

Finished hijacking the thread yet?

[Jefferson23]

29. Well stated. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

31. Thanks.

As tedious as it gets, and despite suspecting that most DUers would be well aware on reading this thread that there were some untrue claims made about Amira Hass, I've decided that in this thread I'm going to be firm and very clear each and every time Shira returns to either repeat the same thing she came out with before, or runs off on a new tangent about something else

[Jefferson23]

33. Oh I understand, she organizes herself, just as you described..yes.

It's like clock work.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. It's almost robotic! n/t

[shira]

32. The denial is one thing, but now you're defending Hass' bigotry...

She writes that she cannot live in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Neither city is purely Jewish but they do have Jews living there. She won't have any of that.

You're defending a bigot and attacking me for bringing it up.

How disgraceful.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. It's not bigotry, as anyone who can understand what they read could spot...

I dunno, should I have said *should spot* or *could spot*? After all, according to you they're so very different in meaning...

Both cities would have purely Jewish communities. Do you usually run round smearing any Jew who dares to say they don't want to live in a purely Jewish community? Because attacking Jews for that comes across as a bit on the anti-Semitic side of things, no matter who's attacking them for it. Jews are just like anyone else and can live amongst whoever they want, and it's none of yr fucking business....

I don't defend bigots. And just like hypocrisy, bigotry's probably another thing you should steer clear of haranguing others about...

Feel free to return to the subject of the OP anytime you feel like it. I know it's just a Palestinian, but I would have thought that attack would have gotten at least two posts of head popping outrage from you before you tried to divert attention away to attacks on Israelis...

[shira]

37. Wha...? Both Tel Aviv & Jerusalem would have purely Jewish communities? Well, Duh...

Of course they would. So would other cities around the world. Why would that stop Amira from living anywhere else within those cities? There are plenty of mixed neighborhoods and communities in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

You're defending the indefensible.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. And she said she didn't want to live in them...

Sorry, but yr fixation on where someone who's Jewish wants to live is kind of creepy.

Nah, can't say I've ever defended anything you've posted, so I'm totally immune from any 'defending the indefensible' crap

[shira]

44. What's stopping her from living in a mixed neighborhood within Jerusalem or Tel Aviv? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

45. I'd say the obvious answer is it's none of yr business where she wants to live...

I'll say it again. Yr fixation on where you think she should live is on the creepy side, plus avoiding the obvious fact that you falsely claimed yet again she'd said something she hadn't. Remember? She said she didn't want to live somewhere that was purely Jewish and you twisted that into saying she didn't want to live with Jews.

So repeat after me, Shira. It doesn't matter who someone who's Jewish wants to live amongst, no more than anyone else. And I strongly suspect yr latest outburst aimed at Amira Hass stems from you being uncomfortable with the fact that she's comfortable living amongst Palestinians and Israeli Arabs...

[shira]

46. I'm asking b/c u make no sense. Your argument is shit & you're defending bigotry. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

48. I've been crystal clear. Perhaps get someone to read it slowly to you?

And if you don't understand what I'm saying, then clearly knee-jerking saying it's shit and I defend bigotry (which you already know that I don't) leads me to wonder how you can make sense of it to utter those shrill accusations...

[shira]

49. You don't realize how silly your defense is...

Amira Hass says she doesn't want to live in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Too Jewish for her tastes. But she could easily live within a mixed neighborhood in one of those cities. You're reading it like she's just fine living within a Palestinian neighborhood...within Tel Aviv or Jerusalem.....despite the fact she just said she doesn't want to live in either city.

You're spewing unhinged nonsense in her defense.

[Violet_Crumble]

50. See, this is where yr getting confused...

I'm not doing a defence. I'm pointing out to you, quite correctly, that you yet again claimed she said something she hadn't...

As I know you don't remember things from even a post or two back, here's a refresher:

Here's what she said: 'To tell you the truth I cannot see myself living in a purely Jewish environment.'

And you twisted that into: 'None of this is surprising given that she hates living among Jews'

Yet again, the obsession with attacking her because she doesn't want to live in a purely Jewish environment is creepy.

'You're spewing unhinged nonsense in her defense.'

Nope. Just pulling you up on yet another false accusation you've made. If yr going to persist with smearing people, at least get some facts on yr side before you start...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

18. Since this thread is trying to be hijacked

let's bring the message back to the OP.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. It's been well and truly hijacked, so I figure just go with the flow now...

btw, it's not you guys who responded to Shira's attempts to derail this OP that I'm irritated at. What I learnt from posting this OP is that Shira couldn't even post once condemning the attack without a 'BUT LOOK AT WHAT THEY DO TO ISRAELIS!' type thing and a whole lot of nonsensical stuff about unrelated things like BDS and the ISM. So clearly while an attack on an Israeli brings endless posts of outrage from one or two here, when its a Palestinian that's the victim, it's far more 'productive' to be outraged about things like attacking other DUers and calling them liars as she did to you. I dunno, those priorities seem a bit fucked up to me...

[oberliner]

41. People really shouldn't throw rocks at other people

One would think that is self-evident, but apparently not to some.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. Yep. Dropping boulders on people and throwing stones at civilian cars is clearly wrong...

It seems to be a disturbing trend, though...

[oberliner]

43. It does indeed

There is a level of dehumanization of the other among many Israelis and Palestinians that is just poisoning an entire generation of children.

Thankfully there are some who actively work to counter such brainwashing, but sadly not enough.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. I wish the people doing that work all the best...

I don't know how effective it'd be, but getting into the schools and talking to kids there would be a good place to start. And organising for people to meet each other might help reduce the dehumanisation side of things. They'd get to see that the people in the car they were thinking of throwing a rock at, or the guy minding his own business on the other side of their wall is a real person as much as they are and doesn't deserve the damage that'll get inflicted on them...

[azurnoir]

51. so the punishment for dopping a 17 kg rock on a Palestinian is a 2 week expulsion

fom East Jerusalem-how harsh

[Violet_Crumble]

52. I can't get to the article anymore. Did they say that in it?

Because if that's the outcome, that's utterly appalling. That was attempted murder and should be prosecuted as such.

[Violet_Crumble]

54. Thanks. I'll give that a try n/t