This is huge: Swarthmore Hillel breaks with Israel policy

[Israeli]

Our friends at the Open Hillel campaign have won a landmark victory in their efforts to transform campus Hillel chapter into spaces that welcome all Jews, instead of marginalizing those who oppose Israel’s discriminatory policies. The passage of this resolution by the Swarthmore Hillel Student Board is a historic event, and a victory for all who support a more inclusive vision of Jewish community:

Swarthmore Hillel is an Open Hillel

Unanimously adopted by Swarthmore Hillel Student Board, December 8, 2013

Whereas Hillel International prohibits partnering with, hosting, or housing anyone who (a) denies the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish and democratic state with secure and recognized borders, (b) delegitimizes, demonizes, or applies a double standard to Israel, (c) supports boycott of, divestment from, or sanctions against the State of Israel;

And whereas this policy has resulted in the barring of speakers from organizations such as Breaking the Silence and the Israeli Knesset from speaking at Hillels without censorship, and has resulted in Jewish Voice for Peace not being welcome under the Hillel umbrella;

More @ :
http://muzzlewatch.com/2013/12/09/this-is-huge-swarthmore-hillel-breaks-with-israel-policy/

Was a huge mistake banning Avraham Burg from speaking .....see what happens when you deny us post zionists a voice King_David ?

[Jefferson23]

1. Good for them...better late than never. n/t

[pelsar]

2. i'm confused...

i thought the post-zionist's believe as per your writings, that american jews shouldn't have any influence on Israel

so why do you care what the american hillel does or doesn't do?

[Israeli]

3. If your confused pelsar....

which BTW does not surprise me in the least ...

I would suggest you read ...

' The Holocaust Is Over: We Must Rise From its Ashes ' by Avraham Burg or just go read here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Burg

[pelsar]

7. Burgs not here, you are.....

why do you always refer me to read what some else wrote?...If Burg was here, i would ask him, but since he is not the one that keeps lecturing american jews here that they have no right to interfere in israel, i 'm asking YOU

YOUR the one that keeps saying its none of their business, so why do you care what other american jews think?.

this is question to YOU, get burg here and i'll ask him.

Why can't you answer a question address to you?

[shira]

27. Forget it. Our Israeli friend is too embarassed by her views to engage in a real discussion. n/t

[azurnoir]

4. you seem sort of confused Avraham Burg is an Israeli Jew influencing American Jews

not the other way around

[pelsar]

8. Burg? I asked Israeli...

is not israeli (like you ) who believes that what israel does to its own, is none of anybodies business?

and Israeli made i clear several times what she thinks about american jews, so my question was to her, why does she care?

[azurnoir]

9. Huh? and Israeli has made it clear about what she thinks of American Jews who have

a right wing political bent when Israel is involved not American Jews as a whole

[pelsar]

10. oh...i though her stance was on principle...

that american jews as a whole should not be involved in Israel.....

i hadn't realized her lambasting american zionist jews was just for those who disagreed with her.

maybe she should explain herself that there are "good american zionists" and who do understand her culture and bad american zionists that "don't understand her culture"

[azurnoir]

11. regardless when it comes to American Jews and Israel

the simple political reality is that American Jews will be involved and IMO Israel knows that, it's sort of support and ninvolvmjent that is the issue

[pelsar]

14. isn't that the argument?

since i define israel as a jewish state, i expect jews all over the world to be involved. The 'post zionists" (and others) as i have come to understand would like israel to not be defined as a jewish state, hence jews who don't live in israel would infact have no say in the matter.

isn't that the whole concept behind the "post-zionists?

if they're just using the jews in america to reach their post-zionism/non jewish democracy, this would hardly be the first time when people where used to further goals that were not their own. (the useful idiote syndrome)
___

and just for fun:
a few posts below ken and israeli have both confirmed that us immigrants deserve a 2nd class kind of citizenship..i.e. we cannot speak out against those who came before us.

well, do you agree with it?...is this a general progressive value? or just in the I/P conflict

[Israeli]

18. Its only part of the argument pelsar ....

and only part of the concept .

I suggest you do further reading .... try Shlomo Sand and Tom Segev for a change from Burg .... but before you do read this :

The end of Zionism.
Israel must shed its illusions and choose between racist oppression and democracy.

@ http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/sep/15/comment

[pelsar]

19. then feel free to explain.....

assuming your willing to lower yourself to explain to an 2nd class immigrant....

btw burg has the same stupid argument as the girl in the video..both believe in absolutes where the majority of us immigrant /sabra israelis believe in zionism in moderation and as flexible concept. (as did rabin)

seems to me you post zionist have to take a principled stand and say NO jews get to influence israel, not the good ones that you like and not the bad ones that you don't like.....stop using them for your own needs.

[Israeli]

21. Rabin is dead pelsar ....

those that were partially involved in his death are now in power ....Bibi included .

Instead of Rabin we have Naftali Bennett ...who you by the way seem to have no problem with .

Its been a long journey for me .....without the help of Yigal Amir and those like him I would probably still be amongst those that think as you do .

Rabin's assassination changed everything pelsar .....turned our world upside down .

You want to believe that you are " the majority of israel " ....truth be told pelsar ...you are not .

[pelsar]

22. Rabin's death did not change everything...

putting Rabin (or anybody) on a pedestal is never a healthy thing to do.Whether or not Rabin would have succeed is an unknown, perhaps you have forgotten his "partner" arafat. Yes, his assassination had its affects, but strong democracies with a TOLERENT character learns to get over its failures.

unlike u i don't have a simplistic vision. Bennett wants to put the haridi to work, that to me is a very positive thing, (perhaps you don't want haridi in the work force?). I would guess you were probably against Begin talking to Sadat given that he is not on "your side of the line". or Sharon withdrawing from Gaza?

i don't have to "believe" I'm part of the majority, in fact i'm part of the minority given the knessets make up, but i'm far closer to the mainstream thought and zionism than the post -zionists are

[Israeli]

23. might not have changed everything for you ...

changed everything for us pelsar .

Nothing Bennett wants to do is okay by me .... and no , I dont have a problem with haridi in the work force.

and no again ... I was all for Begin talking to Sadat .

as for this ..." or Sharon withdrawing from Gaza? "...... you cant be serious ?? ...are you ?

IMHO ... it was the best thing Arik did in his whole history ... whatever reasons were behind it ...he got the job done .
If only we had someone with his balls that could remove the rest of the messianic madmen from the Wild West Bank ....if only .... wont be Bennett thats for sure .

[pelsar]

26. the point is your blinded by your ideology...

Nothing Bennett wants to do is okay by me
you probably said that when Begin was elected..

Nothing Bennett wants to do is okay by me
you probably said that when Sharon was elected

I dont have a problem with haridi in the work force.
well unless you missed the lesson of sharon and Begin, Bennet has the credentials to get them to work, whereas somebody from meretz doesn't.

remove the hatred, Bennet is also part of this country and does in fact have something to offer

and having lived through the kennedy assassination (with all its after effects), Rabins assassination did not change my world view, nor did it make me "hate the right" as per your view.

infact i would take it a bit further, your kind of intolerance for those that u disagree with you is exactly what Rabin was against...I'm sure you remember the posters with with him in a nazi uniform, did he hate those who did it?...i'll answer for you, no he did not, yet u do. Respect his legacy? his beliefs?, clearly you don't.

[Israeli]

30. I was blind when I was a Zionist pelsar ...

Yigal Amir opened my eyes .

[pelsar]

31. so you let some fanatic 'win'

you really think Rabin would give up easy?, do you believe that what he fought for his whole life what he represented would be so easily dismissed by some religious fanatics? Clearly you had little belief in the man nor what he fought for his whole life.

when the religious got him tossed out of office the first time, based on the shabbat desecration of the F-15s' did he just "give up" as your doing? The guys whole life was based on overcoming obstacles....and your attitude is just the opposite. A little push back from the right and you fold and go the the extreme.
______________________

you post zionists don't have the numbers to fight the right wing, hell you've given up.

in fact with your attitude you would soon find yourself living in a real theocracy like iran.....

[Israeli]

55. seriously pelsar ...

....you know nothing about us .... your ignorance of post zionism and post zionists is outstanding .

seeing as you were the one that brought Begin up ....did you know that his grandson is a post zionist ????

Ref : http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=472_1266070137

Avindav Begin's grandson, the former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, and the son of the current Knesset member Benny Begin - from the "Likud" - refuses to stand to hear the Israeli national anthem "Hatikva". He does not see himself as a Jew nor a Zionist and believes that his grandfather did not make real peace with Egypt. He does not agree on the path of his father, also he does not raise the flag of Israel, nor deterred from participating in the demonstrations of anti-Apartheid Wall in Bil'in. He is not worried about throwing rotten eggs at him after the publication of this interview.

Begin said in an interview with "Yediot Aharonot" Israeli newspaper: "blood of murderers flow in our arteries."

The newspaper said in a lengthy report: "Begin is looking on the psychological roots of the Jewish - Arab conflict in his new book "end the conflict" which was published in the recent days in both Hebrew and Arabic languages. He suggests a radical solution to spare all religious, national and ideological sectors which mean to set free from all what defines our identity to live together as human beings. Despite being brought up in a very nationalistic family, and perhaps for this reason, he did not agree on the theories of his father and grandfather.

[Ken Burch]

41. Small point there

During the 1977 election campaign, Begin said nothing at all about talking with Sadat or giving back the Sinai. All he offered during that campaign was privatization and proto-Thatcherism(neither of which ever had any positive results for the majority of Israelis). So there was no reason for "Israeli" to have thought anything positive would be done by Begin. And the talks were pretty much Sadat's idea, so Begin doesn't deserve any real credit(especially since Begin did everything he could at Camp David to AVOID coming to an agreement and had to be pushed into even the watered-down agreement that excluded the Palestinians by the determined efforts of President Carter, a man who's been unfairly called "anti-Israel" ever since).

And during the campaign that brought Sharon to power for the last time, IIRC he said nothing about withdrawing from Gaza. While it's good that he did withdraw(nothing would be better if the IDF were still there, and Hamas would still have been able to do everything it did even if they were), it was bad that he at least made it sound as if Gaza was all that the Palestinians were gonna get and that they should be grateful for getting even that. So again, there was no reason to give Sharon the benefit of the doubt at the time he got in for the last time. Prior to that, Sharon hadn't ever been about anything but keeping the war going for the sake of keeping the war going.

[pelsar]

44. Ken your way out of your league here.....

you're ethnocentricity is so strong that you can't see how other cultures work. You know nothing of Begin to be so insulting to a man of principle and beliefs who knew when to bend for the benefit of his country. and when to be ashamed.

your american politicians all of them don't even deserve to shine the bottom sides of his shoes.

Arik a very different person, a tactician......with different values, yet also knew enough when to bend for the benefit of the country or to bulldoze his way through. (for good and for bad)

it took u a long time to accept that occupations have in the past been the foundations for democracies, a simple fact, and i'm afraid i don't have the energy to teach what it means to understand different cultures and to learn to respect their different values.

Isaeli politicians in general are a very different breed and type than americans (lapid however is the ugly exception to that rule). Your making a fool out of yourself in believing you know them.

you see here we disagree because you've always been a very narrow minded person, who for some reason believes that your values are universal, they are not.

[Israeli]

12. thanks azurnoir....

that is it exactly .

and if Left wing NGO's and others :

" And whereas this policy has resulted in the barring of speakers from organizations such as Breaking the Silence and the Israeli Knesset from speaking at Hillels without censorship, and has resulted in Jewish Voice for Peace not being welcome under the Hillel umbrella; "

are not allowed a voice then how will they ever learn otherwise ?

BTW ... have you seen this :
http://972mag.com/inshallah-the-jews-wont-stop/83597/

Ami Kaufman takes on Orit Arfa (an American settler ) , havent laughed so much in months , read the comments

[azurnoir]

15. That was painful the video anyway

eek but the comments were a hoot and all sounded so familiar too

[Israeli]

16. yup ...

didnt they just

[azurnoir]

17. ...........

[pelsar]

20. well i think..

she could have improved on her "pole dancing"..and the licking the rock was a bit too much for me..and i'm not sure what her plans were with the tractor. She definitely couldn't get a job in the most sleazy topless joint in Detroit.

i think its a good example of the "dumbing down" of the society with the advent of the music videos, combined with youtube tossing in the standard "god gave me this land" mentality.

i would say a national embarrassment is a good description of the young ladies performance. I guess she didn't get past the auditions for the singing shows.

[shira]

25. Yeah, that was pretty bad. Team Demonization will use it to make sweeping generalizations....

...of all Jewish Zionists.

[Ken Burch]

43. Give it a rest. Criticing Israeli treatment of the Palestinians is not "demonization".

There is no moral difference between criticizing the Israeli government and criticizing any OTHER government. Israeli's rulers don't need or deserve any special deference. They're just politicians like all other politicians.

[shira]

48. Mixing a little truth with a lot of lies is demonization and hate speech meant to harm....

Your BDS friend Roger Waters just did it. Was he only criticizing Israel's leaders when he recently claimed the following about Israel's rightwing Rabbinate:

“they believe that everybody that is not a Jew is only on earth to serve them and they believe that the Indigenous people of the region that they kicked off the land in 1948 and have continued to kick off the land ever since are sub-human. The parallels with what went on in the 30’s in Germany are so crushingly obvious that it doesn’t surprise me that the movement that both you and I are involved in is growing every day.”

That's demonization, not criticism. Anti-racists should unite against that, but they don't.

There's enough to criticize Israel about, without bringing up centuries old allegations about the evil religious Jooz...

[Ken Burch]

53. Roger Waters is NOT "my friend", and I hate what he said. He was wrong to say that.

And I'm not "BDS", I'm just not obsessed with denouncing them.

(btw...most people who've been critical of the Occupation are NOT antisemites...and by most, I'd put the figure at probably 98% in North America and Europe. Those who are antisemites are wrong and I make no defense of them).

What Waters said is not typical of the people of whom I speak, so don't tar all of them with his filth.

[shira]

58. Alan Dershowitz is critical of the occupation...

No one would accuse him of demonizing Israel. Obama is critical of the occupation. PeaceNow, Pelsar, Shaktimaan, Oberliner, etc.

They're not the problem.

I'm focusing on the single-mindedly obsessed BDS, Mondoweiss, ElectronicIntifada, ISM crowd of hating harpies that wants Israel gone, not on anyone and everyone critical of Israel.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

50. You sould look to who created the vidoes and stop blaming others for

what a horrible performance this woman has done.

BTW: I would have posted it, but it was too funny. I got the hiccups from laughing at her.

[azurnoir]

47. well as I said it was a painful watch and not because of the subject matter either

I won't even speculate about the tractor, but another one could be entertaining perhaps this time done to the tune of the Chili Peppers "Give it Away" could be quite a spectacle

[shaayecanaan]

56. You're not seeing the potential...

I am thinking she could team up and do a double act with that hefty Israeli girl on Facebook that got in trouble for abusing Palestinian prisoners. Maybe with Star of David nipple tassels and spanky pants with the Israeli flag on the arse. Or the front. Or both.

Imagine them headlining at the next AIPAC conference. The problem with the hasbara crowd is that they're mostly old fogies that need to reach for their heart pills whenever they see a girl licking a rock. But this way they could get young people coming through the door again.

[shira]

24. I enjoyed the bit about Jewish colonists living in Tel Aviv...

How do you fix such a situation, Israeli?

[Ken Burch]

5. Israeli has BEEN an Israeli much longer than you have.

Last edited Sat Dec 14, 2013, 02:35 PM - Edit history (1)

Unlike you, she's a sabra

You can say what you want to me, but you will never ben entitled to lecture or condescend to her.

And she wasn't saying that American Jews shouldn't have ANY influence on Israel, and you know it, so stop the passive-aggressive word games

[pelsar]

6. wow..so you think immigrants are 2nd class?

Last edited Sat Dec 14, 2013, 07:39 AM - Edit history (5)

god how i love it when you imitate a right winger......

i guess i'm not that surprised, on one hand you say your for equality, etc, but only for those who agree with you (you've made this clear a few times). The second someone disagrees with your opinion, out comes the "right wing" viewpoint of some groups are superior to other groups.

btw, i can lecture and condescend to anyone (thats what freedom of speech is all about, but yes you've made it clear you that you are a believer that only some groups get that right, and only during certain conditions, whereas others don't)

but since that is your opinion, i would say you have even "less rights" to lecture me. After all on the "totem pole" of superior rights on israel you must be below me, since i now live here whereas you don't.

or are lecture rights" really dependent upon having the "proper viewpoint?

______

this 2nd class thing, do you feel the same way towards immigrants to the US, mexican "illegals" that they should not interrupt or lecture those that came before them?

[Ken Burch]

32. I don't think immigrants are second-class either-and you know that.

Just that they aren't entitled to "out-flag" and "out-loyal" those who were there before them.

As the descendant of Celtic and European immigrants(and sometimes conquerors)of North America, I have no right to say such a thing.

My point was that you can't fairly claim to be "more Israeli" than, well, Israeli herself. She's got you beat on that one and her loyalty to the country is one thing you can't fairly challenge...ok? Fair enough? Every Israeli citizen is just as Israeli as you are.

And you have every right to disagree with my opinion, but NOT to act like those who disagree with you are deluded and must be forced to eventually concede that you have the only intelligent point of view, or that your point of view must be privileged simply because you've joined an army.

I don't think you are second-class-just that you don't have a claim to inherent superiority. And the issue with you and "Israeli" just then was your insistence on acting as if YOU were entitled to have an opinion and she wasn't.

Everybody has a right to an opinion-everybody is equal-and the right to express that opinion without being verbally bullied. If you would simply say "here's where I disagree and here's why" instead of treating people as if they have to be made to give up the views you disagree with(something I've never asked of you and never would)I'd have no problem with your tone.

But debate must always be done with human respect. While I've sometimes spoken roughly with you, I've never denied you that.

Why don't you ever just stick to the merits of the argument with people? Is there a reason why doing that is threatening to you?

[pelsar]

35. Ill let you apologize to me...

maybe i'll accept it:

these are your words:
Israeli has BEEN an Israeli much longer than you have. Unlike you, she's a sabra
You can say what you want to me, but you will never ben entitled to lecture or condescend to her.

1) the fact that she was born in israel has nothing to do with knowledge of israel, by writing that your assuming she has either greater knowledge or a position that requires i respect her knowledge irreguardless of whether i agree or not, simply because she was born in israel

2) To lecture someone is to explain to them where they are wrong, there is nothing wrong with me telling her that as she tells me the same.

3)If you would simply say "here's where I disagree and here's why" Stop being so ethnocentric Just as israeli explains to me that her culture is not mine, i'm now explaining to you that your culture is not mine. The idea that i (or she) has to use "weasel" words to explain is absurd, we understand each other perfectly well (perhaps you don't?)

i suggest that you prehaps you might learn to respect other cultures and the way we express our thoughts to one another:

to quote israeli again:
"your culture is not mine"

[Ken Burch]

38. Explaining why you disagree with a person is one thing.

You never leave it at that.

And what I said in point 3 has nothing to do with culture(btw, you're from Michigan, so your original culture and mine aren't all that different). Calling for people to be treated with human respect is not ethnocentric, it's universal. There is no culture anywhere that specifically bars mutual respect.

I owe you no apology, and you don't argue the way you do as a result of the culture of your adopted country-you'd use the same approach if you still lived here(the Tea Party types largely use your methods).

Culture has nothing to do with this. There is nothing in Israeli culture that makes it obligatory for Israelis to question the Israeli identity or loyalty of OTHER Israelis, or obligatory to deny your opponent in an argument basic respect as a human being.

[pelsar]

39. this is all about culture.....

israelis...the sabra kind do not talk to each other like americans to each other...and its all about culture and whereas sabras may "yell" at each other and call each other names, write clearly and harshly on an internet forum, that does not mean they don't respect one another.

now your culture, the american one, would not understand that. You want to know how i know that? because I lived in both. when i talk to israelis and argue with them i have to use the local terminology and "expressions. If i were to use what you suggest i would be ignored....whereas when us american israelis get together we use a combination and when i talk to american progressives, i have to talk "nice to them, so they are not insulted and start whining about how i should talk "nice to them" as per your explanation.

your simply ethnocentric and believe your definition of "respect" is what everyone else must believe....thats pretty sad actually, the way you disrespect other cultures, but then you've explained yourself before when it comes to free speech, only the "acceptable kind" can be heard.

so tell me, why don't you accept other cultures and the way we express ourselves?

[Ken Burch]

40. You apparently haven't seen American political culture lately.

The same tactics are used here...and I object to them with the same degree of intensity...culture is irrelevant. The issue is bullying, and that's universal.

I owe no apology to you.

[pelsar]

42. i'm very aware of american culture

and its very different.....can you sit down with a tea party advocate, argue and yell? then start telling jokes to one another? I didn't think so.

no you can't....whereas i can ague and turn blue in the face, with a settler or a post zionist and still go out and have a drink with them.

your definition of bullying is an american version and here its a joke....the simply fact that you believe that it has to be universal says it all.

[Ken Burch]

45. OK, I haven't shared jokes with one

(although I actually have had long-term friendships with right-wing types and I'm well to your left).

I'm not sure all Israelis would agree with you that the tactics you use are essential to effective political debate, though.

Should I applaud you for restraint because you haven't called "Israeli" a "kapo&quot a hate term Israeli rightists use frequently to demonize anyone who calls for treating Palestinians as equal human beings-as if seeking peace-something that requires the extension of mutual human respect and humanity to those who've been victims of the status quo-is the same thing as collaborating with the Third Reich to brutalize other Jews in the death camps)?

Your personal tactics aren't about debate...they're about anathemizing any and all disagreements with your views.

[pelsar]

46. your the one who wants to limit free speech....

not me....your the one who believes that your definition of "bullying" has to be universal. Your the one who believes that american political debate is universal....

that certain expressions have to be used to have a "proper debate".. UGH!!!

why would i care if you applaud me or not for "restraint"? i have no need to restrain myself nor talk using proper PC terminology which only succeeds in limiting ones ability to express oneself. (as per your suggestion.).

Again i shall repeat that, your suggestion on using proper terminology only serves to restrict ones ability to express oneself. Insulting someone is a crucial part of free speech.
____

this is an internet forum, there is nothing i can do, nor would i want to restrict yours or anybody else ability to write here what they want.

YOU are the one who is for restriction of free speech, please remember that.

[Israeli]

13. thanks Ken ...

just one correction .....I'm a she

[King_David]

29. Two corrections,

It was a bunch of ignorant shtooyot bamitz agvaniyot.

[Ken Burch]

34. I've corrected that.

Sorry.

[King_David]

28. What nonsense,

Israeli has no more " right " of opinion than any other Israeli born in Israel or come on Aliyah .

That's a bunch of nonsense.

[Ken Burch]

33. But an immigrant to Israel can't claim to be "more Israeli" than Israeli is...ok?

If you're born in a country and a citizen of it and have served in its armed forces, your loyalty to that country can't fairly be questioned, especially by somebody who got there later and(as former American)went there solely by choice and interest rather than out of any possible fear of persecution or repression(unlike, say, the Russian or North African immigrants or the Ashkenazi survivors the tsar's pogroms or of Hitler's madness in the late 1940's .)

[King_David]

36. My grandparents were born in Palestine

Israelis grandparents were born in Europe and Israeli is far more Israeli than I am ...as I am not (yet)
Your argument makes no sense.

[Ken Burch]

37. So you are both equally Israeli.

Leave it at that(btw, I was speaking to Pelsar in this exchange, and Pelsar's from Michigan. Wasn't even talking about you).

And neither Pelsar nor Israeli's loyalty or identity should be question.

[King_David]

49. You seem to think you have the ability to decide

Newsflash you don't and neither does Israeli ....Pelsar may have come from michigan he is now 100% Israeli and I'm happy to say Jewish Zionist too...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

51. What fictitious country were your (grand)parents born in?

Last edited Sun Dec 15, 2013, 03:11 AM - Edit history (1)

Was it the same fictitious Palestine that Ariel Sharon was born in?

Bookmarking.

[King_David]

52. WTF you talking about?

U know the difference between parents and grandparents ?

What's your connection to our country !

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

54. "What's your connection to our country !"

I'm not sure which country you are referring to here, dave, but I guess that you must mean Palestine from your previous post.

I had no idea you were Palestinian.

[King_David]

59. I'm Jewish

A Zionist Jew ... I have a deep connection ..

You ?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

64. I am part of a diaspora, have dual citizenship with the

Country of my families origin, and understand the plight of the Palestinians at the hands of brute-force occupiers.

I'm also American, and I don't like that our country is an enabler of a repressive country that claims it is a Democracy.

[King_David]

66. Just as I thought..

No horse in this race.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

67. Well, Dave, you certainly have horsesh!t in this race if you are going to

Suggest that you have to be either a Jew or Palestinian to post your thoughts in I/P.

Seeing how you really are an American perhaps you have no horse in this race either?

Perhaps you are the pretender.

[King_David]

68. Most of us posting in this forum are motivated by the same thing

On both "sides" ...A lot of us on one side have brothers , sisters, cousins ,uncles,aunts,grandparents , parents , children and friends and loved ones living in the Jewish State . A lot of us have lived there in the past and a few will live there in the future .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

69. My motivation is human rights for one.

What's yours besides your extended family?

Do any of them live on stolen West Bank land? Will you?

[King_David]

70. Your ridiculous bigoted post

Bears no response..

Do some soul searching mister , we all human beings no matter our background or ethnicity...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

71. Oh, poor, poor dave can't answer the question now.

Oh, poor, poor dave can't answer if his extended family happen to live on stolen land in the West Bank.

Oh, poor, poor dave can't answer if he would be willing to live on stolen land in the West Bank.


Take your pity party elsewhere and hit the bigot button all you want, dave.

I must have hit a very shallow nerve if you react to that question as if you were burned by acid.


I'll ask you this again, dave, would you be willing to live on stolen West Bank land if you emigrated to Israel?


Yes or no?


I know that I wouldn't, but I don't rely on screaming "bigot" when I am asked a simple question where the obvious answer should be 'no.'

[King_David]

74. Could you explain this a little better so we can all understand ?

I get some of it but not all .

[King_David]

80. Your prerogative it's just too bad posting something so jumbled

That we don't understand it.

[shira]

78. Your motivation is not human rights. Who do u think you're fooling?

Your fellow anti-Israel activists cannot be bothered by human rights violations against Palestinians unless Israel can somehow or someway be blamed. You guys have proven repeatedly that you will make up crap allegations in order to bash Israel.

OTOH, Palestinians suffer 1000 times more under Hamas, the PA, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and Jordan than they ever will under Israel. But activists like yourself can never be bothered by that. We all know why the rights of these Palestinians don't count to people like yourself. As much as you cry apartheid, there's genuine apartheid in Lebanon against Palestinians, but only silence from you. You're fooling no one.

Yes, yes...you can argue that the pro-Israel folks don't care either but here's the thing. We're not pretending to be pro-Palestinian advocates who care about their human rights. You are....

Why the pretense?

And if I'm wrong, then please explain. I'm all ears!

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

90. And once again the purulent homunculus disgorges a litany of unfounded accusations.

I am not, nor do I know of or associate with any, an anti-Israel activist as you so wrongly have belched forth.

Unless you have become disorientated with your most current spin and believed that you have whirled off into the ether, unfortunately I must inform you that have landed in the I/P forum from which matters relating to I/P are brought up and discussed. Yes, for some of us the word 'discussed' is used when we converse over matters that we deem of some importance. But I digress.

We, and I mean all those who witness your authored convulsions, realize that seemingly with little forethought you whirl off to whatever country the gas from your bellows takes you in search of your next diversion.

Again I must inform you, as a barkeep would inform a glazed patron, that you have reached your limit.

Within the confines of I/P we discuss matters relating to I/P, and unfortunately, my glazed patron, your stumbling distractions to lead the conversation away from the OP are as that of a clumsy suckling. Genuine in its amateurish glory.

You are well within your rights, presently, to lament the flotillas to Tibet and any other distraction that might lead the passing Duer off the cliff that team hijack has created.


Seeing how I am fair-minded on the subject I would like to point out, to the Passing Duer to save them from your bluff, that in your ramblings you have left in a few grains of truth.

OTOH, Palestinians suffer 1000 times more under Hamas, the PA, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and Jordan than they ever will under Israel.

Thank you for pointing out, in your back alley way, that Israel does, in your own words, cause suffering to the Palestinians...seeing how this group is for I/P discussions.

We're not pretending to be pro-Palestinian advocates...

Yes, that much is certain when your best defense of Israel is to point out that we can't look at Israel. We understand that Your type is not pretending to be pro-Palestinian, and by being not pro-Palestinian advocates, to say the very least, the first thing that one would try to do, after their latest round of drafted incontinence, would be to try and discredit those who certainly are pro-Palestinian advocates.

That ideology is certainly the way of the political strumpet.

[shira]

94. If you're so concerned about Palestinian human rights....

...then why the silence about their human and civil rights in Gaza or the W.Bank? Among the oppressed under Palestinian rule are women, gays, christians, blacks, children, and political dissidents.

What have you and your fellow advocates ever done to help those Palestinians out?

What is your plan to help them out once Palestine is independent in a 2-state scenario?

==========

Remember, you say you care for their human rights...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

95. Please review post #90 for any further purulent discharges you may have.

[shira]

96. IOW, Palestinian rights are important to u only when Israel can be bashed.

Last edited Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:11 PM - Edit history (1)

You continue to demonstrate with each post that this is in fact what you believe. Their human rights mean absolutely nothing to you unless Israel can somehow be blamed.

How utterly reprehensible.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

97. Hush now. #90.

[shira]

98. Yes, #90 goes to show you're only interested...

...in Palestinian rights if Israel can be blamed. Otherwise, Palestinians can go to hell.

Nice pro-Palestinian advocacy there.

Same type of compassion abuse as the extreme rightwing bashers of Israel. No difference.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

99. Poor you, Shira.

Did you drink your own Koolaid?

I understand how important it is for you to vilify critics of Israel, but you are out of your depth with these gaseous accusations.

[shira]

100. Tell me again how much u care about Palestinian human rights....pretty please?

I need a good laugh.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

101. My position is clear. It has been clear.

What is also clear are your attempts to twist any criticism of Israel, regarding Palestinians, into some hatred of Israel and indifference to Palestinians.

Your song and dance doesn't cut it, you old Vadevillian.

[King_David]

60. My grandparents were born in the British Mandate

Called Palestine.

What makes you call Palestine fictitious ?

Strange ..

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

61. Seeing how you called it Palestine

upthread I guess that makes you an individual of Palestinian descent.

[King_David]

62. Yes it does absolutely,

But Hamas wouldn't accept me ...

I'm a Jew ...

That's what the conflict is all about.

It's what motivates people for and against any one side in this conflict-- even those with absolutely no ties to the conflict at all...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

63. "I'm a Jew that's what the conflict is all about."

Really, the conflict of the occupation can be boiled down to who is a Jew?

Don't you suppose that some might want freedom from Israel...that might be what the conflict is about?

[King_David]

65. Nope

This conflict is about Israel's neighbors absolutely not being able to tolerate any Jews living in "their" neighborhood .

The support of the neighbors by western ISM and extreme right wingers and BDS types and those who label the Jewish State as an apartheid state very much has to do with the same principle .

Different shades of grey.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

73. "Jews living in "their" neighborhood" Wrong. I'd wager that the Palestininas

don't want illegal invaders in their neighborhood.

But please, victim on if you must.

[King_David]

75. Really?

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/4267640?utm_hp_ref=uk&ir=UK

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

76. Yes, really; especially since the West Bank has been overrun with illegals.

You never answered my question, dave. If you were to move to Israel would you live in the West Bank?

Yes or no?

[King_David]

79. No not really :

Abdel Aziz Rantisi, Hamas leader, June 10, 2003, interview with Al-Jazeera, Jerusalem Post

"By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews..."

"You will have no security except outside the homeland Palestine.... We have Allah on our side, and we have the sons of the Arab and Islamic nation on our side."

http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/muslim-arab-world/c/hamas-in-their-own-words.html


( it's all about Jews .. Their, here, in the USA (extremist right wingers , BDS crowd , enthusiastic labelers of Israel as a Nazi or Apartheid State) and in Europe ... It's all about Jews , always has been. )

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

81. Blablabla...

Meanwhile some asshole in Hamas, that nobody in their right mind would support, is brought up by some court jester as some kind of touchstone against illegal Israeli settlments in the West Bank: the point missed.

Blow smoke up somebody else's ass, dave, and leave your victimization at the door.

[King_David]

82. Yea it doesn't matter

I get it , it doesn't matter what happens to them , history is irellavent and what kind of nerve have they got demanding a safe refuge.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

83. To drop your own words back in yor lap

28. What nonsense,
Israeli has no more " right " of opinion than any other Israeli born in Israel or come on Aliyah .

That's a bunch of nonsense.

Same goes for you.


Has it ever occurred to you that playing the victim appears weak if you support an apartheid state?

[King_David]

85. The Jewish States an Apartheid state ?

Ha , I read that in the most extreme extreme right wing sites ...

Anyone within the USA Democratic Party making such an absurd remark would be labelled a bigot and probably expelled .

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

88. Well, to quote you...on you.

What nonsense,
Israeli (and in this case dave...added by RDO) has no more " right " of opinion than any other Israeli born in Israel or come on Aliyah .

That's a bunch of nonsense.

[King_David]

89. You can quote me all you want, and I do say some pretty amazing and profound stuff,

But it's gotta be contextual else it doesn't make sense...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

91. "But it's gotta be contextual else it doesn't make sense..."

That defines the essential dave succinctly: doesn't make sense.

If you need help making some sense I'm sure I can lend you some guidance.

[King_David]

92. Guess you needed deflect away from the discussion nt

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

93. No, I'm just bringing you back to reality.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

86. Seriously, it is like a broken record...

the continuous litany of victimization that I read with regard to Israel. Yes, no kidding, Hamas is a terrorist group that hates Israel.

Abbas is a bad guy that hates Israel.

Therefore anybody that criticizes Israel, points out that Israel is on the wrong side of history WRT illegal settlements, points out that Israel has s two tiered racial system, points out that there is a defacto state of apartheid within Israel must surely be a Hamas/Abbas loving leftie-commie anti-Semite.

[King_David]

87. I don't see any "sarcasm" thingy there ,

And I actually agree with some points you have made in that post...

[rafeh1]

57. I think Muslims

I think Muslims need to break from the false flags of Assad, Egypt generals and Iranian ayotallahs who are only in it for their own interests.

just say no to aparthied and ethnocentrism..

[shira]

102. Yes, Hillel must host asshole extremists against Israel's existence....

Just as Swarthmore's Women's groups must host male chauvinists and their LGBT chapters must host gay marriage opponents.

[Israeli]

103. Vassar Jewish Union declares itself an 'Open Hillel’

Vassar College’s Jewish Union declared itself an “Open Hillel,” in an announcement made Tuesday on its website. The Vassar Jewish Union, a Hillel-affiliated student group, stands out against the international Hillel guidelines rejecting partnerships with groups deemed hostile toward Israel.

It is the second campus Hillel organization to designate itself an Open Hillel. Swarthmore College Hillel voted to reject the Hillel guidelines for campus Israel activities in December.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.575163

See also :

Vassar Jewish Students Break With Hillel on Israel

Read more: http://forward.com/articles/193053/vassar-jewish-students-break-with-hillel-on-israel/#ixzz2uKAaVRSo