The 'refugee' diversion

[shira]

In actuality, the vast majority of those people are descendants of the original refugees, who would not have been eligible to receive such a status had the conflict involved any other country but Israel. In any other conflict in the world resulting in refugees, they fall under the purview of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. According to UNHCR guidelines, refugee status cannot be automatically passed down a generation, and under no circumstance can this status be inherited without the simultaneous effort to resettle those refugees.

When people speak about the millions of "refugees" who will return to their homes, it is obvious that no type of peace accord can be reached which is based on one state for the Jewish people and a Palestinian state. However, if people would correctly only discuss the tens of thousands of actual refugees, all over the age of 65, the question would then receive its proper proportions and a solution to the problem could be rationally discussed.

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_opinion.php?id=6691

In short, those calling for full right-of-return aren't seeking a peaceful solution to the conflict. They're prolonging it, while at the same time ensuring that the original refugees and their descendants continue to waste away in subhuman conditions throughout the Arab world. This should be obvious to anyone who is not willfully blind...

[azurnoir]

1. WATCH: 'Canada Park' built on destroyed Palestinian villages(destroyed in 1967)

http://972mag.com/watch-canada-park-built-on-destroyed-palestinian-villages/83861/

[Scootaloo]

2. This argument is beyond stupid...

One, it's being made exclusively by people who believe that refugee status can be inherited two thousand years after the fact.

Two, those same people are the ones responsible for creating the problem in the first place - exactly why do the people who perpetrated and endorse an ethnic cleansing, get a voice in how to handle the victims? We don't let Serbia tell us how Albanians ought to be handled, Khartoum does not dictate to the world what the status of Darfuris should be

Three, it makes the argument - again from the perpetrators - that after sixty years of refusal to let any refugees return, refusal to even consider some sort of compensation even, it's magically "too late." Well that's pretty fucking convenient. Strange that they think descendants of other peopel should be able to claim looted art, though. One would think it'd be too late there, too, if this logic is in play. Different standard for Arabs than Jews, I guess - again.

Four, it carries the expectations that families should be hatcheted apart. Like grandpa is really going to leave his family in some shithole camp in Lebanon. Is there some rational argument about why grandpa could not bring his family to the house he's been telling them about all this time? it's his house, after all. Oh right - Ve muszt preserve zee purity of der vaterland!

if Israel or its sycophants gave a shit about the condition of refugees in these camps - Israel doesn't, and its boot-lickers sure as hell don't - the problem would have been solved decades ago. However Israel's strident demands for ethnic purity (thus the need for cleansing!) and its fanboys rabid, seething hatred of Arabs, generates this nonsense argumentthat it's somehow the fault of people who want justice for the refugees, rather than the fault of the people who created and truly perpetuate those refugees.

And once again, Shira is yanking her beyond-stupid arguments from the pages of right-wing nutters. if I wanted Sheldon Adelson's opinion about something, I would just go read FreeRepublic.

[King_David]

3. 2000 years is way too long,

I think it should be 10-20yrs max.

[shira]

4. Your POV on refugees is beyond....well, beyond something.

Words are hard...

One, it's being made exclusively by people who believe that refugee status can be inherited two thousand years after the fact.

Strawman. No one is claiming all Jews from the past 2000 years are refugees or have rights under IHL as refugees. Only that Jews have as much a right to their own state in their historic homeland as the Palestinians do; ergo, 2 state solution.

Two, those same people are the ones responsible for creating the problem in the first place - exactly why do the people who perpetrated and endorse an ethnic cleansing, get a voice in how to handle the victims? We don't let Serbia tell us how Albanians ought to be handled, Khartoum does not dictate to the world what the status of Darfuris should be

No, these same people aren't responsible. They didn't start a war of annihilation vs. the Jews. The Palestinians did. It's the Palestinians' fault for starting a war and dealing with the consequences. Same as the millions of German refugees of WW2 when Germany decided to go to war. Blaming the allied powers for German refugees is just as beyond stupid as blaming Israel for Palestinian refugees.

Three, it makes the argument - again from the perpetrators - that after sixty years of refusal to let any refugees return, refusal to even consider some sort of compensation even, it's magically "too late." Well that's pretty fucking convenient. Strange that they think descendants of other peopel should be able to claim looted art, though. One would think it'd be too late there, too, if this logic is in play. Different standard for Arabs than Jews, I guess - again.

Thousands of refugees have already returned. You didn't know this? An offer of accepting well over 100,000 was rejected at Lausanne. Israel has been willing to compensate refugees, but their offers have been rejected.

Descendants of refugees are not refugees themselves according to IHL. No other descendants of refugees in the world hold refugee status themselves. One standard for all. Why don't you try defending the fact that of millions of refugees from the past century, only descendants of Palestinians count as refugees themselves? You can't...

Four, it carries the expectations that families should be hatcheted apart. Like grandpa is really going to leave his family in some shithole camp in Lebanon. Is there some rational argument about why grandpa could not bring his family to the house he's been telling them about all this time? it's his house, after all. Oh right - Ve muszt preserve zee purity of der vaterland!

No families need to be hatcheted apart when monetary compensation is offered.

And nice nazi reference.

if Israel or its sycophants gave a shit about the condition of refugees in these camps - Israel doesn't, and its boot-lickers sure as hell don't - the problem would have been solved decades ago.

Israel had refugee camps of its own and decided to offer those Palestinians citizenship, which they accepted. It's the fault of the Arab nations for keeping their refugees in camps for over 6 decades. It's obvious that westerners who bitch about Israel couldn't give a shit about these refugees, as they have never advocated for the rights of these refugees (the same rights afforded all other refugees worldwide).

However Israel's strident demands for ethnic purity (thus the need for cleansing!) and its fanboys rabid, seething hatred of Arabs, generates this nonsense argumentthat it's somehow the fault of people who want justice for the refugees, rather than the fault of the people who created and truly perpetuate those refugees.

Absolute bullshit.

The need for 1948 came as a result of war waged against Israel. No war, no refugees. If Israel wanted ethnic purity, they'd have thrown every last non-Jew out in 1948.

And it is the fault of folks like you that Arab nations perpetuate the refugee crisis. After all, you're giving them the green light to hold their refugees in subhuman conditions for the past 6 decades. It's absurd to say that people like yourself want justice for refugees and their descendants. Justice would have been allowing them citizenship in the countries they were born in, like everywhere else in the world so they could get on with their lives.

And once again, Shira is yanking her beyond-stupid arguments from the pages of right-wing nutters. if I wanted Sheldon Adelson's opinion about something, I would just go read FreeRepublic.

The author of the OP is a liberal, former Labor MK. She'd be a Dem here in America, like all other elected Zionist Dems.

[Scootaloo]

5. You know, I've already answered all these in the past... whatever.

Strawman. No one is claiming all Jews from the past 2000 years are refugees or have rights under IHL as refugees. Only that Jews have as much a right to their own state in their historic homeland as the Palestinians do; ergo, 2 state solution.

Well, as I pointed out before... they actually do. A guy born and raised in the US does not get to say he has equal right to Palestine, as a Palestinian. That's incomprehensibly stupid. And for the record,it's based on the idea that his ancestorswere supposedly made refugees from the territory two thousand years ago in the Roman era. So... yeah, that's exactly what the claim is.

No, these same people aren't responsible. They didn't start a war of annihilation vs. the Jews. The Palestinians did. It's the Palestinians' fault for starting a war and dealing with the consequences. Same as the millions of German refugees of WW2 when Germany decided to go to war. Blaming the allied powers for German refugees is just as beyond stupid as blaming Israel for Palestinian refugees.

Except the Palestinians were being invaded, their homes and land were being confiscated, and the invaders had already started purging them from what someone in New York had arbitrarily decided would be "Jewish territory." It's intriguing that you regard an armed response to ethnic cleansing, to be "starting a war of annihilation." I suppose "fighting back" is intolerable behavior in your mind.

Thousands of refugees have already returned. You didn't know this? An offer of accepting well over 100,000 was rejected at Lausanne. Israel has been willing to compensate refugees, but their offers have been rejected.

Descendants of refugees are not refugees themselves according to IHL. No other descendants of refugees in the world hold refugee status themselves. One standard for all. Why don't you try defending the fact that of millions of refugees from the past century, only descendants of Palestinians count as refugees themselves? You can't...

Seeing as how Israel purged seven hundred thousand? I suppose the notion of giving any notice at all is considered "generous" from the minds of Israel's leaders, and their sycophantic lapdogs. Same mentality that leads you to believe throwing the Palestinians into Jordan is a viable "two state solution."

And this strikes me as a flaw with the way other refugees are considered. it strikes me as odd that you think a solution to some people being treated poorly and other people being treated less poorly, is to fuck the second group over rather than help the other groups out.

Comes with being a right-winger, I suppose.

No families need to be hatcheted apart when monetary compensation is offered.

And nice nazi reference.

Well, you were talking about only allowing grandpa to return. Here, look;
"However, if people would correctly only discuss the tens of thousands of actual refugees, all over the age of 65,"

I've only seen one plan, discussed in 2007, to allow monetary compensation. it presented it as an alternative - either the people involved could go to the Palestinian State (that was supposed to exist in 2008, apparently - OOPS!) or receive compensation. No mention of how much compensation, nor how it would be distributed (most likely it would be dispersed by the host state, which translates into no money for the refugees in most cases, I'd suppose.)

Israel had refugee camps of its own and decided to offer those Palestinians citizenship, which they accepted. It's the fault of the Arab nations for keeping their refugees in camps for over 6 decades. It's obvious that westerners who bitch about Israel couldn't give a shit about these refugees, as they have never advocated for the rights of these refugees (the same rights afforded all other refugees worldwide).

Except, as I've pointed out to you endlessly, every host state except Lebanon has extended paths to citizenship to these refugees.

Also, these refugees are ultimately the responsibility of Israel. it's nice that that responsibility was realized for some of them in the 50's. it hasn't been realized for those refugees in the occupied territories, and is patently ignored elsewhere. Out of sight, out of mind? or is it just the Jewish Supremacism that took over after '67?

Absolute bullshit.

The need for 1948 came as a result of war waged against Israel. No war, no refugees. If Israel wanted ethnic purity, they'd have thrown every last non-Jew out in 1948.

Did your Birthright tour guide tell you that when you were 17 and you never bothered to read a book, or something? And I'd say an 80% purge is pretty effective; the US got a score of 90% vs. the Indians, but Turkey only got like 60% with the Armenians.

And it is the fault of folks like you that Arab nations perpetuate the refugee crisis. After all, you're giving them the green light to hold their refugees in subhuman conditions for the past 6 decades. It's absurd to say that people like yourself want justice for refugees and their descendants. Justice would have been allowing them citizenship in the countries they were born in, like everywhere else in the world so they could get on with their lives.

The refugee crises is perpetuated by the state that created the refugees refusing to rectify the situation because its "democracy" requires the dominance of one particular ethnic group over another.

I like how in your head, Israel has all these rights, but absolutely no responsibilities whatsoever.

The author of the OP is a liberal, former Labor MK. She'd be a Dem here in America, like all other elected Zionist Dems.

Apparently in Israel, being a "liberal" means "weakly center-right, dedicated to militant nationalism." Then again such things are measured on a relative scale, and since Israel defaults to right-wing proto-fascism, I guess she COULD be considered a liberal in that context. But no, even in the US, she'd be considered a conservative, and would be, at best one of the doggier of the blue dogs; more likely just a standard Republican.

Doesn't change the fact that you're drawing your arguments from Adelson's personal buttpaper.

[shira]

11. response part 1

Well, as I pointed out before... they actually do. A guy born and raised in the US does not get to say he has equal right to Palestine, as a Palestinian. That's incomprehensibly stupid. And for the record,it's based on the idea that his ancestorswere supposedly made refugees from the territory two thousand years ago in the Roman era. So... yeah, that's exactly what the claim is.

The Jews as a nation/people have equal rights to the land as anyone else born there. The Palestinian people don't even go back 100 years in history. If you asked about Palestinian culture, history, language, etc. from 100 years ago, people would refer you to the Jews, not the Arabs of that region. That's not to say the Palestinians aren't a people now, because they are. Only that the Jews have been a people/nation for thousands of years and as a people they easily have as much right to the land as anyone else. Besides, easily half of all Palestinian refugees are descended from people who moved to Israel due to economic opportunity, after the 1st wave of Zionists moved there in the late 19th century. I love how u guys like to pretend they're all indigenous.

Except the Palestinians were being invaded, their homes and land were being confiscated, and the invaders had already started purging them from what someone in New York had arbitrarily decided would be "Jewish territory." It's intriguing that you regard an armed response to ethnic cleansing, to be "starting a war of annihilation." I suppose "fighting back" is intolerable behavior in your mind.

Wow.

You mean that holocaust survivors and refugees escaping pogroms elsewhere just invaded Palestine, stealing homes and land, kicking people out....before the Palestinians started attacking Jews in the 1947 civil war? Are you fucking kidding? This is loony fringe talk. Also, the Arabs who attacked the Jews in 1947 (and before) were targeting Jews, not recent immigrants. They attacked any random Jew they could find. And here you are defending that? There was no move to ethnically cleanse anyone before the Arabs started their war of annihilation against the Jews.

Seeing as how Israel purged seven hundred thousand? I suppose the notion of giving any notice at all is considered "generous" from the minds of Israel's leaders, and their sycophantic lapdogs. Same mentality that leads you to believe throwing the Palestinians into Jordan is a viable "two state solution."

Except that Israel didn't throw out 700K. The vast majority left on their own accord. There was never any racist plan to cleanse the land of most of its Arab inhabitants.

And this strikes me as a flaw with the way other refugees are considered. it strikes me as odd that you think a solution to some people being treated poorly and other people being treated less poorly, is to fuck the second group over rather than help the other groups out.

Just looking for one standard. No hypocrisy.

You cannot even acknowledge that what has happened to the Palestinian refugees and their descendants the past 6 decades is a true act of evil perpetrated not by Israel, but by the Arab world and a UN that has allowed for it. No other nation would be expected to take in all these refugees right after a very bloody civil war. The only reason they remain refugees is to use them in order to destroy Israel.

Let's get something straight. There are refugee rights and refugees should be compensated. However, their rights are not supposed to trump the human rights of others. If giving them their "rights" means causing another war with 10's or 100's of thousands of people dead, then such a "right" must be realized in another way (compensation). I have a right to do whatever I want in my house and in my backyard, so long as it doesn't hurt other people's rights. Same concept.

Comes with being a right-winger, I suppose.

The anti-zionist solution to this conflict...resulting in more war, chaos, and a fascist totalitarian theocracy replacing a western liberal democracy is way beyond right-wing and regressive. There is absolutely no redeeming value in it. No one benefits from it. It's basically an extreme rightwing fascist warmongering position.

Well, you were talking about only allowing grandpa to return. Here, look;
"However, if people would correctly only discuss the tens of thousands of actual refugees, all over the age of 65,"

I've only seen one plan, discussed in 2007, to allow monetary compensation. it presented it as an alternative - either the people involved could go to the Palestinian State (that was supposed to exist in 2008, apparently - OOPS!) or receive compensation. No mention of how much compensation, nor how it would be distributed (most likely it would be dispersed by the host state, which translates into no money for the refugees in most cases, I'd suppose.)

There was a compensation package that Israel agreed to in 2000-01 (Clinton Initiatives) worth something like $35B at the time.

Except, as I've pointed out to you endlessly, every host state except Lebanon has extended paths to citizenship to these refugees.

Only to some refugees under certain circumstances. If all refugees had the choice, nearly all would choose citizenship where they are.

Also, these refugees are ultimately the responsibility of Israel. it's nice that that responsibility was realized for some of them in the 50's. it hasn't been realized for those refugees in the occupied territories, and is patently ignored elsewhere. Out of sight, out of mind? or is it just the Jewish Supremacism that took over after '67?

All W.Bank citizens were given Jordanian citizenship between 1948-67. Jordan revoked that citizenship afterwards. That makes them refugees of Jordan, not Israel. Agree or not?

And you really need to stop with the Jewish Supremacy shit. Stinks too much like David Duke...

[Israeli]

7. MK Dr. Einat Wilf ....

The author of the OP is a liberal, former Labor MK. She'd be a Dem here in America, like all other elected Zionist Dems.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/redemption-won-t-come-from-israel-s-young-success-stories-1.338049

Two lost years, 40 lost years, and the academic promise of the alleged left is in no hurry. The left? Wilf explained that she is heading for the mythical center. Labor is too left wing for her. Benjamin Ben-Eliezer is post-modern, Isaac Herzog is post-Zionist, as Barak put it. So be it.

So be it, that a young MK is already joining the party of two-year jobs. But the person who wrote a book whose title was "Founders, fighters and us - the young generation and the next struggle for the image of the State of Israel," came with a different pretension. But if this is the face of this generation and this is its struggle, better to stick with the old, sweaty hacks. At least they don't write "visionary" books full of cliches.

Who needs young people like Wilf, conservative and opportunistic. Their predecessors are enough.

An ideological fellow of Orit Noked? A partner to the philosophy of Shalom Simhon? A year in the Knesset, and she's already been a member of two factions. And not a single interesting initiative, beyond calling for the removal of Yitzhak Rabin's portrait from her faction's meeting room.

It was no coincidence that Wilf once said in a Haaretz interview that she admired Abba Eban and Benjamin Netanyahu. They're also graduates of the right universities and masters of hollow rhetoric.

[shira]

12. Her positions are liberal across the board. Social, economic, etc....

She'd easily fit within the Democratic Party here in America.

I like her a lot.

[Israeli]

13. she is a nobody politically shira ....

she went with Barak ....one of only four that did , and created Ha'Atzma'ut , a new political party that lasted nine days after Barak announced his retirement from politics.

and who is now leader of Avoda that she deserted for Barak ?

" The left? Wilf explained that she is heading for the mythical center. Labor is too left wing for her. Benjamin Ben-Eliezer is post-modern, Isaac Herzog is post-Zionist, as Barak put it. So be it. "

No other than Isaac Herzog

I'm sure she would " easily fit within the Democratic Party here in America. " and that you like her a lot .... she didnt fit in well with us tho ...

[shaayecanaan]

6. Can you name any other refugees that do not have a right of return?

The Azeris who fled Karabakh? The Hutus that fled Rwanda? The Serbs that fled Kosovo?

Anyone?

[oberliner]

8. Can you name any other descendants of refugees who are considered refugees themselves?

Or is this a unique quirk of the Palestinian situation?

[shaayecanaan]

9. I'll happily answer your question if you answer mine (nt)

[shaayecanaan]

14. I take it thats a no?

So Palestinians are the only sort of people that you can kick out of a country and not let back in.

Maybe we should amend the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to that effect:-

Article Thirteen

Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country unless he is a Palestinian.

[azurnoir]

10. will this do?

The well-being of children without citizenship is seriously at risk," said Ágnes Ambrus, UNHCR's protection officer in Hungary. "Without a legal bond with the state, they could be denied basic rights and services – including access to education and health care."

Glody caught one break when he was two months old. To help maintain family unity, he was granted refugee status, which ensures him the same rights Hungarian children have, with a few exceptions.

But while refugee status may seem to be the solution, it is not a lasting one.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Convention on the Rights of the Child both state that everyone has the right to a nationality. In many cases, as with Congolese law, children automatically acquire the citizenship of their parents. But the situation of refugee children is particularly tricky because they are outside their home countries and cannot contact their authorities for proof of this legal bond. While many refugee families are never able to return home, some families still hope to do so one day.

Fortunately, Glody's refugee status provides him protection. For other refugees who are stateless, however, it is important that host countries grant citizenship to stateless children born on their territory.

http://www.unhcr.org/4efc695f6.html