Palestinian protesters greet John Kerry in Ramallah, yelling 'Go home'

[Jefferson23]

Official close to Abbas dismisses U.S. drive for 'framework agreement' as biased toward Israel.
Jan. 3, 2014 | 5:00 PM

Palestinian protesters on Friday condemned the latest efforts by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry to advance peace talks with Israel, using chants evoking the Arab uprisings and telling him to go home.

Hours before Kerry was due to meet Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, a raucous crowd of several hundred took to the streets of Ramallah, the West Bank's de facto capital, chanting "Kerry, you coward, there's no place for you in Palestine!"

Separately, an official close to Abbas dismissed Kerry's drive for a "framework agreement" as biased toward Israel.

Kerry has said such an accord would narrow gaps between the sides and pave the way for a final deal when the nine-month period allotted the U.S.-backed talks expires on April 29.
But Yasser Abed Rabbo, Abbas's deputy in the Palestine Liberation Organization, said the plan, still being finalized, "restricts Palestinian sovereignty on Palestinian land."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.566931#

[Jefferson23]

1. The Repblicans who are " concerned ":

"The Palestinian side will not even look at a worthless piece of paper, a framework agreement, which contains general principles for later negotiations, when the two sides have already been negotiating for months and years," Abed Rabo said in a statement published in the al-Ayyam newspaper on Friday.

Palestinian and Israeli officials have publicly differed on the future status of the West Bank's border with Jordan, where Israelis want a permanent security presence but Palestinians want a full withdrawal of Israeli soldiers and Jewish settlers.
Israel said last week it planned to build another 1,400 homes in settlements in the West Bank.

Kerry has told reporters that the agreement, besides borders and security, would aim to address all the conflict's key issues such as refugees and Jerusalem.

The U.S. top diplomat talks with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Thursday and saw him again on Friday. He is due to see Abbas later in the day.

Around three hundred activists with the left-wing Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine party rallied in downtown Ramallah hours before Kerry's scheduled arrival.

"The people want the fall of the framework!" they chanted, evoking the chants heard in protests throughout the Middle East in 2011. "It's clear, Kerry, we don't want to see you! The Americans are the enemy of our people!" they added.

Dozens of riot policemen and plainclothes security forces prevented their march from reaching Ramallah's presidential compound, where Abbas was expected to receive Kerry.

U.S. Republican Senator John McCain, who is also in Israel and has conferred with the Israeli Prime minister, told a news conference on Friday that Netanyahu doubted the proposals.
"Netanyahu has serious, serious concerns about the plan as it has been presented to him, whether it be on the ability of Israel to defend its borders, on the reliability of a Palestinian state ... and particularly on the overall security," he said.

"We also are very concerned," he said, standing alongside fellow Republican Senator Lindsey Graham.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

2. If our poiliticans had any reality-based ideas they would realize

that they have been supporting apartheid and colonialism for a long long time.

If the roles were reversed for the Palestinians and the Israelis our 'esteemed' leaders would be calling for war with Palestine.

There's a disconnect in our electeds that reeks of hypocrisy.


Continually funding an apartheid state is not the moral thing to do.

[Jefferson23]

3. I don't think they don't know what their policy has been and what it has brought forth

for the US/Israel alliance. US foreign policy is not based on what is moral, but on what
works for moi...that's it. If and when a policy of Israel's interferes with our interests this conflict
will be over faster than you can say...pack up your bags, settlers.

[oberliner]

4. "US foreign policy is not based on what is moral"

That may be the understatement of the year.

Though I would argue that the number of countries whose foreign policies are based on what is moral is somewhere around zero.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

6. One could rightly argue that the US policy on Israel was to turn a

blind eye to illegal settlements just as long as Israel continued to be our proxy during the cold war.

After the fall of the Soviet system the next bogeyman in line were the nasty Mooslims (see blowback) and since Israel could fill the void of proxy there and then the US, IHMO, decided to let them continue with their renovations in the Palestinian territories...

[Jefferson23]

19. One could rightly argue that US foreign policy is a nightmare... but it has paid

off very well for a percentage of corporations, big time. Our interests with Israel
intersect and unless something sharply interferes, the US does not really give
a shit. I would say, because no one can predict with any certainty, but life has a
way of changing when you are too busy keeping the status quo alive and
well...you think you have all the necessary control.

Situations could change here..for example, there are millions of American voters, and not
only those in the southern states, who were shocked out of their minds
that a black guy, with a Muslimy name no less, became POTUS.

So, the status quo believers should think about that too.

[King_David]

5. It must be frustrating the Democratic Party and Leaders

And elected treat your views as extremist .

You should start a party that is as extremely against the Jewish State as you would like them to be and fight against the Democratic Party .

When you get enough public support you can institute your extremist views as policies our party leaders Obama , Kerry etc consider extremist -- good luck with that.

[azurnoir]

7. so your saying that US Democratic leaders v iews aims and policies where Palestine is concerned

are in line with yours? and what are those again-should we review?

[King_David]

8. They certainly not in line with anyone calling

Israel an apartheid state or identifying one self as an anti Zionist ...100% certain of this ...

Review away

[azurnoir]

9. again are you claiming that US Democratic leaders views on Palestine are in line with yours?

why do you not seem to want to answer-you seem quick to denounce others opinions as being out of line but what about your own?

[King_David]

12. Yep in line with mine on economics

Gay rights LGBT marriage Israel Abortion Gun control etc etcetera

[azurnoir]

13. didn't you once state no Palestinian State until Gays in Palestine have full rights?

so your claiming that this is Obama/Kerry's stance too? Please link us up to that

eta here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=50286

[King_David]

14. Agree with a boycott of Sochi Olympics too...

Strange you think that post to be something I would be ashamed of...

DU is a comfortable place for gays and gay rights ....did you forget that.

Not only do I stand by that I'm proud of it and Gay rights are Human rights.... If the Government of Palestine or even the people of Palestine wish to discriminate against Gay people --- fuck them and all who believe that deserve no sympathy or help until they see the light.

[azurnoir]

16. I asked a question you seem to not want to answer-why is that?

and

No I did not forget anything again are you claiming your views match up with our Democratic Admins?

and BTW

didn't you attempt to put someone on the ropes for saying F**k Israel?

lol nice attempt at distraction from the subject but no go

[King_David]

17. Cos your argument is ridiculous

Gay rights are Human rights and fuck anyone who discriminates against LGBT goes for Russia Iran or any state sponsored discrimination against Gay people.

[azurnoir]

18. a question is not an argument it is a question period

one you seem to not wish to answer

[King_David]

21. OMG it seems you need some education on Gay issues

Why not go up to the LGBT group and ask about saying "fuck you" to any country who discriminates against gays and any other questions you may have..

Just be careful not to be banned from the LGBT group like so many who regularly post in IP have... Mostly on one side of this issue I might add.

[azurnoir]

23. the question was about how in line with our current administrations views on Palestine your own are

seeing as how you point out constantly to others how they are out of line with our Democratic leaders not the subject of Gay Rights as an issue, your attempt at redirect will simply not work

[King_David]

24. You brought up this topic

Your view is clear..

[azurnoir]

25. really how are my views clear? I have not said a word about my views the question regarded your own

views, why can you not answer a relatively simple question? Are your own views on Palestine in line with our Democratic admins? Have Kerry or Obama said that Palestinians should not have state do to what you claim are their views on Gay Rights?

[Scootaloo]

20. Like states where gay people can't marry unless they're wealthy enough to go to Cyprus?

Also, David, since you're such a barnacle on democratic Policy, is it safe to say you were against gay marriage and DADT prior to the 2012 Democratic Party convention? You do know that the party's standing pro-GLBT planks are all very recent additions to the platform, replacing 90's era "we don't hate you but we'd rather you not talk to us" standards?

And you're with the democrats on economics? Well, that's a tragedy. Are you there because you love brainless hypercapitalism and banksterism? 'cause really the only difference between the two parties on economics is that Democrats talk about enacting taxes (but rarely ever do.) I somehow doubt you are, and are just throwing that out there to pretend you have some sort of credibility on the subject.

Really, I know thinking hurts your brain-meats, but you're really going to have to come up with some argument other than bandwagoning and appeals to authority.

[oberliner]

26. Same-sex couples have the same rights in Israel that straight married couples do

No travel to Cyprus or any other country needed.

You keep thinking Israeli society is the same as American society when it's just not.

[azurnoir]

27. are you stating that Gay people can marry in Israel?

would that be in a religious or civil ceremony?

[Israeli]

31. they do ?

"No travel to Cyprus or any other country needed".....unless one of you is not classed as Jewish

[King_David]

29. Looks like you should go up to the LGBT group and ask some questions

Oops forgot your banned from that group.

[Violet_Crumble]

33. Why do you keep on going on repeatedly about that?

It's coming across as obsessive. Unlike you, I don't give a fuck what groups other DUers belong to or what they might be blocked from. And seeing you constantly bring up the subject of LGBT rights here, why are you now telling someone else to go to another group to talk about it?

The wedge yr trying to drive between pro-Palestinian DUers and LGBT DUers is as lame and ineffective as the one I saw attempted a while back when someone tried to drive a wedge between feminist DUers and LGBT DUers...

[King_David]

35. Guess I'm off "ignore "

Thanks now I know how Oberliner felt last year .

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Huh? I've never put you on ignore so I've got no idea what yr going on about...

Nor why you respond to nearly every post with weird name-dropping and bizarre gossipy Meta-style stuff. Any chance that one day you'll actually address the substance of a post addressed to you with something other than that?

[King_David]

37. Post 13 by Azurnoir , started this ridiculous tangent of a thread,

With a borderline and off topic post sure to ignite passion.

[Violet_Crumble]

41. No. I just looked and you started this ridiculous tangent in post 5

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=55766

Y'know, where you yet again attacked DUers as not being real Democrats.

Az didn't bring up LGBT issues in this thread. You did, in post 14

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=55776

[King_David]

42. People have very much made the LGBT issue

Famously a Jewish,Israel,Zionist issue ...famously...


"Pinkwashing "or some other idiotic term those bigots use...

[Violet_Crumble]

43. Yet again, yr ignoring the content of the post yr replying to...

You accused someone else of bringing up the topic, yet it was you who brought it up and then told another person to go to the LGBT group to discuss it.

[King_David]

44. I looked again and it was post 13..

Talk about Meta .. I guess you do love it

[Violet_Crumble]

45. Then I suggest you try reading, because you brought it up in post 5

And then hit the ground running, yet again implying in following posts that anyone who supports the creation of a Palestinian state is a homophobe.

So now yr calling LGBT issues Meta? Nah, Meta is the sort of stuff where someone comes along, ignores what someone else has posted, goes on about who's blocked from where, who they think has them on ignore, and does their best to not say anything of substance...

[King_David]

46. Ahh was wondering ,cos I never been to that forum

I was beginning to think it was anything that that you didn't feel like discussing.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. Glad to have given you a learning moment, Dave...

And, yeah. When it comes to crap like attacking others for being blocked from other DU groups, whining about being bullied, whining that people have you on ignore when they don't and other gossipy crap, I'd prefer not to see that crap constantly raised in the I/P forum. Maybe you could ask Skinner to create a group called 'Gossipy Meta-style crap'. I don't think he'll be too warm to that one, though...

[King_David]

48. Good points

Actually I understand what your saying.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. Good. Now I can move onto more important stuff...

...like feeling sorry for myself because in my single-minded focus on how Pearl Jam are exclusive to a big festival here this month and aren't playing anywhere else and I miss them coz I hate festivals, I missed noticing that Eddie Vedder was staying on afterwards to do a show at the Sydney Opera House, which is the best venue ever. So I missed out on tickets. Life sucks and now I'm lowered to trawling the PJ forum in the forlorn hope someone's got some tickets to sell

[King_David]

50. Buy outside from scalper

Supper time here...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

54. I believe that you are being confused with Purveyor...seeing how your names are so similar.

[King_David]

34. "rarely ever do.) I somehow doubt you are"

Well that's a problem you have Scoptaloo and not just with me. You have this superiority problem towards groups and individuals .

You like the ISM need learn people outside of the USA don't need self appointed leaders , they are capable.

[Israeli]

28. snippety doo-dah ....

http://972mag.com/nstt_feeditem/israeli-deputy-minister-jews-have-a-higher-soul-than-gentiles-even-if-theyre-gay/

[Jefferson23]

30. lol, and drat, you pulled a 972 mag, too.

Here’s a snippet from the interview. Remember, this man is a high ranking government official in the only democracy in the Middle East.

What will you do if the Knesset votes on a bill legalizing gay marriage?

No way. Also, a Jew cannot marry a gentile.

Is that the same thing?

We don’t recognize either of them. And anyway, a Jew always has a much higher soul than a gentile, even if he’s gay.

[King_David]

32. The guys an idiot and a twerp

Fuck him...

And ?

[Israeli]

39. which guy King_David ?

Ami Kaufman ?
or .... Deputy Minister for Religious Affairs, Rabbi Eli Ben Dahan.

[King_David]

40. Deputy Minister for Religious Affairs, Rabbi Eli Ben Dahan.

Fucking hateful idiot.

[Israeli]

51. and who do you think represents your voice more ....

Rabbi Eli Ben Dahan

or Ami Kaufman ???

which one is the self hating anti-semetic kapo ???

which one is the stronger Jew ?

[King_David]

52. I don't know anything about Kaufman

There are some misguided Jews ... A big thing in USA nowdays is people claiming to be Jewish who aren't ( they think it gives them cred.), I never called someone a self hating Jew ... Ever ....and a Kapo was specifically a Jew forced to service Nazis ....Not by choice .

[Israeli]

56. I know you dont know ....

....anything about Kaufman.

The correct answer was neither King_David.
Neither represents you .

I never said that you called " someone a self hating Jew " etc etc .

I was referring more to a certain American Democratic New York State Assemblyman , goes by the name Dov Hikind.
Do you know anything about him ?
With his views ...should he not be a Republican ???

[King_David]

57. He's a religious fundie and I have no time for him. ,

He should be a republican yes. , the reason he's not is that the Jewish area he represents only votes democratic , as do the overwhelming majority of the Zionist Jewish community in the USA .

[Israeli]

58. Interesting ....

So he is pretending to be a Democrat , have I got that right ?

And all those that vote for him are aware of this ?

Not very honest is it ?

And what about the rest of your " religious fundies " do they do the same ?

Who do the non Zionist Jewish community in the USA vote for , the Republicans ?

[King_David]

59. Personally I don't know any non Zionist Jews

Myself... Besides the ones you read about .. Chomsky , Mondoweiss, Finkelstein etc and I'm not sure if they vote republican or not ...

The vast majority of USA Jews vote for the Democratic Party .

Your getting more interested in the Golah Jewish community geveret ?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

10. I am not against the Israeli people. I am against apartheid governments though.

You should start a post, perhaps for once in your life, that is factually correct and doesn't rely on you lighting up a fatty to source for material.

Now back to reality, dave.
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Kerry-US-considers-Israeli-settlements-to-be-illegal-330786

Kerry: US considers Israeli settlements to be 'illegitimate'
"Let me emphasize at this point the position of the United States of America on the settlements is that we consider them... to be illegitimate," Kerry said after discussions with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3781005,00.html

Obama says settlement building illegitimate
In a speech to the United Nations General Assembly in New York, Obama said it was time for talks without preconditions to resolve disagreements on security for Israelis and Palestinians, borders, refugees and the status of Jerusalem itself.

"We continue to call on Palestinians to end incitement against Israel and we continue to emphasize that America does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements," the US president said.

The problem for some is that they believe the US approves of apartheid, but that is far from the truth. The damn has already started to leak WRT calling the Israeli system of colonization and two sets of laws for what it is.

Former President Carter has called the system apartheid, and some here have gone to great lengths to call him an anti-Semite. As more Democrats get tired of coddling the oppressive Israeli system I expect them to start using the term apartheid without fear of people who throw around false and worn out epithets; just as I also expect the bankrupt screamers to use the false accusations of anti-Semitism.


I am not frustrated, dave. I am patient.

[King_David]

11. I agree with their views on the settlements

If we were volunteering for an election campaign for the USA Democratic Party and one of us expressed a view that Israel were an apartheid state ... That person would be fired ...and rightly so.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

22. I'm not running for elected office, and neither are you.

Therefore I am not beholden to any lobby that wants me to kiss their backside.

[King_David]

38. You can only possibly know about yourself ...

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

55. I know enough to about you to say I would never

vote for you for dog catcher...even if you ran as a Democrat.

[King_David]

60. That's such a witty answer nt

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

61. More truthful than witty.

You're more than welcome to whine about imagined bullies if that serves your interests today.

[King_David]

62. Another very contextual answer,

Good to see your discussing the issues.

[MisterP]

15. intriguingly, we didn't get 100% behind Israel until Entebbe

even in 1973 we were ready to overrun all Saudi Israelia (though that was Nixon, of course)

a few slips of history and we'd be stuck with a bunch of rabid Marcionists on every forum, comments section, "politics" section of B&N, and vanity-press catalog ...