Lapid: EU considering striking central treaty with Israel if peace talks fail

[Jefferson23]

** The EU can deny it all they want, won't make it any less true.

EU denies it is considering backtracking on crucial treaty; finance minister says failure of talks will bring GDP-reducing boycott.

Should Israel be blamed for failure to reach a peace agreement with the Palestinians, the European Union is considering canceling its association agreement with Jerusalem, which serves as the legal basis for Israel-EU ties, Finance Minister Yair Lapid said on Wednesday.

“Just canceling the association agreement with the EU, which we know is already on the table now as far as they’re concerned, would reduce exports by NIS 3.5 billion, harming the GDP by NIS 1.5b. and causing 1,400 layoffs,” Lapid said at the annual conference of the Institute for National Security Studies in Tel Aviv.

A cancellation of the agreement, which was signed in 1995 and went into effect in 2000, would be an enormous step backward for Israel- EU ties. Europe accounts for 33% of Israel’s foreign trade, making it the country’s main commercial partner. Preferential trade ties with the EU, participation in cultural and scientific bodies, the recently approved Open Skies Agreement and other important treaties fall under the framework of the association agreement.

Though a spokesman for Lapid stood by the text of the speech, it seems possible that the minister spoke out of turn, with a spokesman for the EU delegation to Israel denying such a drastic step was being considered.


http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/WATCH-LIVE-Lapid-addresses-the-INSS-conference-339760

[Scootaloo]

1. Maybe Israel should stop grasping for more territorial handouts?

Because that's really the bone of contention here, Israel trying to hang on to land it has absolutely no right to have in the first place. Not just that, but trying to commandeer more, through the Jordan Valley! Since this is the stuff that keeps stalling any peace agreement, and it's Israel that keeps insisting and demanding ever-increasing swaths of land be given to it, one can only come to the conclusion that neither the government of Israel - including Lapid - nor the people who freely elect that government are at all interested in peace.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

2. Under the leaked US-brokered peace plan, if true, Israel will leave 75%

of it's citizens in the West bank?

Have you ever heard of another country just giving its citizens to another country: while the same citizens have been hostile to the population?

[King_David]

3. The people living there should choose if they want to live in Israel or Palestine

There should be no forcible transfer of anyone... That's Liebermans stupid plan.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

4. They're Israelis. Israelis. They're not accidental. Stop with the baiting.

[King_David]

5. OK I get it,

its OK to ethnically cleanse Jews from a future Palestine state?

So says an American who has nothing to do or has no link to all of this.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

6. They consider themselves Israelis. You don't really get it. But you do.

The horrifically comical aspect to your present argument is that you apparently support the Illegal Israelis in the West Bank; although you have also been on record as being against them.

One might point out the hypocrisy of your words, .

On edit: Were the Israelis removed by Israel from Gaza ethnically cleansed by Israel? Your logic is springing a leak, .

[King_David]

9. I do not support the settlements at all

But they living there now and a lot if them were born there and if some of the places they live in become Palestine then no one has the right to ethnically cleanse them ... They will have to remain in Palestine or move to Israel . There is precedent eg: Latvia and Russia.

Liebermans plan just won't wash.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

11. "I do not support the settlements at all"

"no one has the right to ethnically cleanse them"

So I guess that nobody had the right to ethically cleanse the Palestinians from what is present day Israel.

Right?

These people, King David, are Israeli citizens, and their existence in the West Bank has been deemed "illegal" by much of the world. It is not up to them or Israel whether they stay or not.

I have to applaud you, King David. I have never seen a poster, except for the one who is on vacation, clutch at their pearls while dancing through a mine field... and stepping on every one.



On edit: This operation of yours is at an end, and the patient is dead on the table.

[King_David]

15. That's a classic post everyone should see nt

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Why don't you support the settlements?

You pop up every now and again and claim you don't, but you never say why you oppose the settlements. So, why?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

29. Don't expect a cogent argument to be forthcoming.

I'm not sure that one can be vehemently both for and against something.

[Violet_Crumble]

51. I'm glad I wasn't holding my breath waiting for an answer from Dave on that one...

From what I've read, there's far more vehemence when it comes to supporting the settlers being able to stay in the West Bank than the occasional weak and unconvincing 'I oppose the settlements'...

[Scootaloo]

7. It's okay to deport Israeli nationals from non-Israel territory where they have no legal right to be

This ain't rocket surgery, Dave. Every Israeli dwelling beyond Israel's declared and recognized borders is an illegal occupant - a squatter. That they have been enabled by the state of Israel does not change their legal status, it just places the state of Israel in violation of international law, which it is legally bound to uphold as part of its responsibilities when it joined hte United nations.

Now, if Palestine decides to offer these people Palestinian citizenship, that is Palestine's right to choose. but they are under no legal obligation to do so.

[King_David]

8. I'm sure they will take it under advisement from

The Americans that wish to lead them and tell them who their leaders should be and what kind of treaty they should accept.

[Scootaloo]

10. They already accepted the treaty, David

It's called the fourth Geneva Convention. Signing onto that treaty is mandatory to become a member state in the United Nations.

Israel is a member of the united nations and is thus party to the Geneva conventions.

The Geneva conventions prohibit transfers of population into or out of an occupied territory. Thus, by the state of Israel enabling Israeli nationals to enter and settle within territory occupied by Israel, it is in violation of this treaty.

If Israel feels that its territorial ambitions place it beyond the treaties it has agreed to, well then it should just North Korea the fuck up and ditch the treaty, taking whatever comes from that.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

12. Do you feel a twinge of guilt outclassing the King with information

that one may be taught in High School?

[Scootaloo]

13. Remind me; what's the difference between guilt and disgust twinges?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

14. ...

I have no idea what the IM is telling these guys, but how can somebody be against the settlements and then be for Israelis forcing themselves into a future Palestinian state?

It's infantile in its approach.

"Well, our illegal citizens will stay in your country" is just another round of bullshit by the Israeli leaders to keep the pain going.

If Israel keeps up this toddleresque behavior they are going to be punted by the EU.

Whoever came up with this lame attempt to hold on to empire should be sacked: Israeli or American.

[Scootaloo]

17. It is indeed childish

This apparent belief that a person can hold every position in favor of something, but then if they say "but I'm not in favor of that," their audience is supposed to just go "ooooh, okay then."

I can't fathom the intellectual cowardice this takes.. .though in Davey's credit, he's more forthright and honest about his positions than the fellow named after a jelly donut.

[King_David]

16. I'm sure they aqueise to American BDS "apartheid picnic " leadership

[Scootaloo]

18. First, it's "acquiesce."

Second, your statement bears no relevance to mine, and makes no sense on its own. I'm pointing out Israel's existing treaty obligations they took on upon joining the United Nations. This has nothing to do with Americans, BDS, or picnics, but rather with the legal responsibilities Israel took upon itself in 1948 when it signed the treaties in question.

Can you present to me a coherent argument that the Geneva Conventions do not apply to Israel, despite Israel being a signatory party to the treaties?

[King_David]

22. spellcheck is a bitch nt

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Just curious, but have you grasped the concept of the Fourth Geneva Convention yet?

It appears yr ignoring it...

[King_David]

27. What all of you fail to have grasped

Is that if it's part of a peace treaty agreed to by both sides ... Signed sealed and delivered by the USA ... The 4th Geneva convention as well as the objections of the American or Eoropean "supporters"of the Palestinians
( whatever their motivations are) are irrelevant .

Pretty big "IF" but pretty small concept to grasp.

[Scootaloo]

33. No, that's not missed at all.

Ironically though you just acknowledged that Israel is in gross violation of standing international law, and that there is no existing treaty to cover that up... even going so far to point out yourself that such a treaty is unlikely.

So there you go. You're openly in support of a rogue state violating international law and conducting human rights abuses. That's a shame.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

34. It's like ridiculing fish in a barrel.

[King_David]

36. As you can see in the UNESCO threads

Last edited Mon Feb 3, 2014, 03:39 PM - Edit history (1)

The support by European and American "antizionists ". ( ) has nothing to do with the Palestinians or Human Rights.

[Scootaloo]

37. Wow. I'm impressed

Eueropean and Anerican, huh?

How much booze do you drink before posting?

[King_David]

38. Yea that's the ticket and not surprised it came from you.

None actually..

Are you going to call me a "retard" next?

Classics:
"How much booze did you drink"
"Are you off your meds"
"Psycho"

Etc etc

Did you forget your on a progressive website ?

Bigotry and antisemitism and making fun of mental illness are not usual on DU ( with some exceptions coming from self described AntiZionists)

[Scootaloo]

39. I didn't forget anything Davey

Fact is you're spelling as if you're using your face to type, and your arguments are increasingly incoherent.

Are you saying this is the result of a mental illness on your part? I was certainly unaware, and you have my sympathy... but even if that's the case, you might want to do better spell-checking, and find useful arguments and coherent sentences before you hit "post my reply."

I still find it fascinating that an advocate of homophobe preachers, who maintains that he has the authority to strip someone of their Jewish identity, feels comfortable calling other people bigots and antisemites. Just out of curiosity, do you actually think such accusations work in your favor in an argument? I wonder at this, it's as if you expect someone to go "OHNOES HE CALLED ME A NAME I BETTER BACK OFF!"

If you haven't caught on by now... it just doesn't work anymore. You've rendered the words into meaninglessness.

[King_David]

40. Got no clue what your talking about?

Homophobic what?

Perhaps take it to the Gay group here on DU?

Oops wait I forgot your banned from the LGBT group.

[Scootaloo]

41. I imagine you lack clues about a fairly large number of things

And yes I am, since I didn't tolerate someone saying racist shit about the president's wife Oh well, tolerance of racism and hate coming from people whose progressiveism only extends to the avatars they choose is par for the course on DU, as I'm sure you've figured out.

[King_David]

42. Dunno what you talking about again and one doesn't see Avatars on an iPhone

I am assuming your Avatar is a progressive one from what you said? Figures.

[Scootaloo]

44. Oooooh, you're on a phone!

well, that certainly does explain the spelling.

Gin Rummy: Shit, I don't know 'bout you, but I don't have time to read nothin' a motherfucker typed with his thumbs. Fun fact; nothing typed by someone's thumbs has ever been important.

[King_David]

46. .

[Scootaloo]

50. And no, my avatar is the same thing as my screen name.

It's not political under any measure that I'm aware of...

[Violet_Crumble]

52. I just wanted to point out that my avatar's cuter than yrs!

I thought I'd get in before Dave asks and explain the political significance of mine. It's the well-known symbol of the Tuggeranong chapter of the I ♥♥♥ Israel Book Reading Circle. We meet every Tuesday night out at Wanniassa where we sit in a circle and try to read books in Arabic just to show how tolerant we are. So far we're well into the first sentence of the first page of Dershy's 'The Case For Israel'. It only took us six months of struggling to realise that we're supposed to read from right to left. Someone suggested we just read it in English, but I pointed out it makes as little sense in English as it does to us in Arabic, so we're thinking of moving on to tackle the Hebrew edition of Joan Peter's 'From Time Immemorial'. We seem to have developed a thing for books full of plagiarism and bullshit..

[Mosby]

19. indyk said that 75-80% of the settlers will be part of land swaps

Bringing them into Israel proper. He claims that Abbas is ok with the remaining 20-25% staying and becoming Palestinian citizens which I think is complete bullshit.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

20. I believe it all to be complete bullshit, and I would be embarrassed

as an American if this plan is legitimate.

[Scootaloo]

21. Which part is bullshit?

Indyk's statement, or the idea within the statement?

[Mosby]

23. The idea that Jewish settlers will be welcome

And allowed Palestinian citizenship in the new state.

[Scootaloo]

24. Well, they would have to seek it, first

Which is the first unlikelyhood in a cascading order of unlikelihoods.

After all, that "deep and integral bond to the land" only seems to go as far as low prices, tax stipends, and state-sponsored racial supremacism stretches.

After that we get to see what the bar is for legally obtaining Palestinian citizenship. An ironic - if hypocritical - method would be for Palestine to simply mirror Israel's own policies. The hypocrisy would actually be worth it to see Israel's supporters pop their vocal cords from the outraged howling.

After that, there's no doubt the problem of legal property... That's going to be one hell of a thorn in the ass. hell ever tried to prove that you own something that ISN'T in dispute? Woo!

And yeah, I can't imagine the well-deserved hard feelings will be lessened.

But like I said. Without all the free perks of being a Master Race Colonist - low taxes, affordable property prices, free utilities, the IDF guarding you as you shoot at the neighbor's kids - i imagine most of the settlers will just roll their asses back to Israel. or maybe even back to Brooklyn.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

28. Details, details.

This sudden jump, by the Hasbaraholes, to conclude that illegal Israelis should just be welcome with open arms in any future Palestine, or they're being ethnically cleansed (by whom they never say so far), is a laughable defense. Since it seems to be a well-orchestrated howl one might ask where the marching orders, or in this case the wailing, orders are really coming from.

Frankly its a seriously sick idea, and shows that not only are the Israelis not interested in peace, seeing how this population swap (POP-Swap™) is not feasible and runs contrary to common sense and international law, but it shows the deep-seeded colonialist bent where Israel will try to hold on to this land with it's own citizens: who will never see themselves as anything other than Israelis.

[Scootaloo]

30. I wonder if they call Israel's deportations of African migrants "ethnic cleansing" too?

I don't. I think the approach Israel takes on the matter is shameful - I think the same of the US' treatment of Latin American migrants - but it's not ethnic cleansing.

If the PA is entertaining the idea of offering amnesty to these illegal squatters, well, good on the PA. if not, well, that's the PA's right.

For the record? I think they should make the offer, but with a tight screening process. But I also recognize that the PA's under no obligation to do so... I just recognize that humans migrate, and I frankly find it impossible to hold that the Us should offer amnesty to its undocumented migrants, while saying the PA shouldn't.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

32. Sure it's the PA's right, but considering that many of these settlements have pushed out

Palestinians just imagining how the mechanics of these settlers staying in place is mind boggling.

But if the PA were to extend the olive branch to the settlers as long as they played nice and lived under the Palestinians flag then I have no objections to that.

What I do have objections to is the present Israeli government keeping it's citizens in place in any future Palestinian state.

[shaayecanaan]

31. 23 MEP’s call for suspension of EU-Israel Association Agreement

http://www.eccpalestine.org/23-meps-call-for-suspention-of-eu-israel-association-agreement/

Granted, thats not very many.

I think something like this would be a long time coming. But it will eventually come.

[Jefferson23]

35. I don't know, because it looks very bad right now...hope you're right. n/t

[King_David]

43. They European MEPs

It's like breathing for them.
I'm surprised it's only 23 too.

[Scootaloo]

45. What's that mean, "they're european MEP's; it's like breathing for them"?

[shaayecanaan]

47. It means...

[King_David]

48. Ha ha , nice.

Thanks for giving Scotolo a history lesson.

[Scootaloo]

49. I notice you're not answering me, Davey.

What's that statement mean?