Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumBelgian MP does Nazi-style salute, says Zionists funded Holocaust
It has emerged that far-right Belgian politician Laurent Louis gave three Nazi-style salutes in parliament.
A supporter of Dieudonnés Anti-Zionist Party, he was filmed performing the quenelles made famous by the French comedian in succession in January.
Returning the compliment, Dieudonné called on Belgians to vote for Louiss party, Debout les Belges (Down with Belgians), in Mays federal elections.
Louis performed the quenelles after a speech in which he claimed that the Holocaust was set up and financed by the pioneers of Zionism.
http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/115390/belgian-mp-does-nazi-style-salute-says-zionists-funded-holocaust
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Just because some of the Zionists of the time sold out Jews to save their own asses, blocked efforts to escape to safer parts of Europe, and today spend their time exploiting the Holocaust for political gain doesn't mean that it was their idea!
Interesting his a gesture that has meant "up yours" for ages was turned into a "Nazi salute" by the Panic press, and has since been adopted as such by these sorts of doofuses.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Or left-wing... or part of a sect he doesn't like... or whatever else...
King_David
(14,851 posts)I said that ?
Really ?
I said no such thing ...but your posts are "interesting" and everyone can see them. No imagination needed..
The article you link is titled, "Why do non-Jews bashing Israel pretend to be Jewish"? It basically rolls around declaring Gabriel Schivone to be a non-jew, for no perceptable reason than either his political views or his racial background.
You posted this in an effort to de-Jew another person, Eric Cheyfitz. You then doubled-down on your position rather than even consider that the article you came up with is bigoted garbage.
I also remember an argumentyou and i had not long after I started posting here, where you declared the members of Neturei karta to be non-Jews. i share your disdain for those nuts, but had to stress the point that yes, they are in fact jews. if I recall (that's an if, I can't find the thread - the Du search feature isn't especially user-friendly) you stuck by your position as the Jewish pope then, too.
Other posters around here have noted this rather nasty habit of yours as well.
You even said you had this authority as a member of some sort of "organization" which has been the source of no shortage of laughs.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 16, 2014, 05:48 PM - Edit history (1)
And what is said in an article posted by a DU member?
I said no such thing , whereas your posts are your words .
As for the rest of your accusations Shaktimaan answered you best in that thread.
Shaktimaan
44. Except
It appears he never was a Jew. All the evidence points to him lying about being Jewish to leverage political points to benefit a cause he believed in. He may have decided he identified with some aspects of the Jewish culture. But it seems pretty clear that none of his parents, grandparents or living relatives are Jewish, nor was he raised to identify as a Jew nor did he participate in any landmark Jewish ceremonies or study them or anything.
He doesn't meet any of the most basic rules of what a Jew is. Why would you think he's Jewish? He already admitted to using it as a false identity out of convenience.
You must know that you don't become Jewish just because you decide that you are, right? There's nothing to strip away from him. He's just lying for political advantage.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=56048
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)or what?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Thanks.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)man you declared a "fake Jew" ?
1. r at Cornell University who wrote, I am a Jew"
Ha ha ..
Classic :
http://www.jpost.com/International/Why-do-non-Jews-bashing-Israel-claim-to-be-Jewish
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=54254
King_David
(14,851 posts)Really?
You can link that up too? Because it is not in the link provided.
There seems to be a lot of imagination among you and Scootaloo ascribing things I have ''said' and then we do not see them in your respective links.
Want to see some real words said on DU as oppossed to fabrications ascribed to myself missing from all your links?
OK read this post :
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57842
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)rather uncalled for
despite denials the JPost link is the one Shaktiman was elucidating on
King_David
(14,851 posts)'Belgian MP does Nazi-style salute, says Zionists funded Holocaust'
You know,the OP topic....
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)David, let's be clear about something. None of us posting here are idiots. We certainly think everyone else is an asshole, but we're none of us idiots.
so when you claim people are "pretending to be Jews," laugh at someone saying they are a jew, and then link an article de-Jewing someone, the context and intent is very fucking clear, and no one is particularly puzzled by what you are saying.
Azurnoir and Fantastic Anarchist handled Shaktimaan's nonsense rather well - What you, he, and the other Zionists posting here continually fail to realize is that you are not invested with this authority you claim. You do not get to decide who is and is not Jewish. despite the name you have chosen to be identified by around here, you aren't a King.
King_David
(14,851 posts)So I will write a long involved post with lots of foul expletives and language including the F--k word and hope everyone's confused by it all-- (end translation)
Ha ha Got it
Whereas your posts are crystal clear for everyone to read.
Bye bye .. c ya
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)1. r at Cornell University who wrote, I am a Jew"
Ha ha ..
Classic :
http://www.jpost.com/International/Why-do-non-Jews-bashing-Israel-claim-to-be-Jewish
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=54254
King_David
(14,851 posts)Last edited Mon Feb 17, 2014, 02:22 PM - Edit history (2)
Your both trying very hard in this coordinated attempt but can't quite find the goods.
All to deflect on the quite clear posts that are available for everyone to see.
Try again please because so far it's a clear failure .
And an extremely "intellectual", "productive",
school-yard type of discussion that is only really understood by regular IP posters here ,goes on and on and on and on.
I'm still standing and you guys got nothing ! And so on and so forth...
LOL
King_David
(14,851 posts)"Turned into a nazi salute by the panic press" ( your words)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1223844
No antisemitism here--- just a fabrication by the "panic press."
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Its current use is indeed antisemitic, and your pictures do prove that. I wasn't questioning that. The gesture is, however, pretty old and means, as I said, "up yours," basically a full-arm middle finger.
I'm not denying the antisemitism of its use. I'm wondering whether it would be getting use in such way were it not for the media claiming tht's what it was. I could see a snowball effect, not too dissimilar from those stupid Mohammed cartoons years back - some idiot decides to do something offensive and bigoted, the media magnifies it, other people decide "hey, let's be offensive idiots, trollolololol!" and down the hill it rolls.
LeftishBrit
(41,202 posts)'Just because some of the Zionists of the time sold out Jews to save their own asses,', etc....
All groups will have their sell-outs and bastards. There were black Africans who sold other black people into slavery; there are women who subject their daughters to FGM; the American Revolution was stained both by direct traitors such as Benedict Arnold and later by the genocide of the Native Americans.
I assume that you don't think that any of these discredit the anti-slavery or civil rights movements or feminism, or that America should just go back to being a colony? Is it only Zionism that is defined by its worst representatives?
King_David
(14,851 posts)To understand the posts better.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57842
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)For reasons which would take a long time and be off-topic to explain. so let's jump right to the part of your post that actually has meaningful content; the last sentence.
Zionism is defined by the ideas the philosophy espouses. Zionism is a bad, nasty fucking philosophy because it has bad, nasty fucking ideas. Shitty people are attracted to shitty ideas - see political rightism - it doesn't transform people into shitheads, it attracts shitheads from the general population and concentrates them.
LeftishBrit
(41,202 posts)If so, then fair enough that you should think the same of Zionism. If not, then what is so uniquely bad about Zionism that isn't so bad about Irish or Scottish or Kurdish nationalism?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)What is bad about Zionism is not "uniquely" bad - in the post David links to I compare it to white nationalism and black separatism. I'm sure there are other such movements it could draw comparison to that aren't as immediately referable. What's bad about Zionism is what's bad about these other race-based nationalist ideas as well.
I find the notion of "the races work best when separate" to be wrongheaded, and efforts to enforce that idea to be repulsive. So racial separatism as a political philosophy isn't winning any points with me. And that is a core feature of Zionism, from its inception - Herzl railing that assimilation is impossible and Jews could only exist through separatism - to the modern era (those "scholars" warning that miscegenation will "make American Jews disappear".)
Further these notions attribute a nationality to a disparate spread of nationalities and ethnic groups, and then assert the need for them to have some national territory all their own. of course this presents a problem as this race-nation, by definition, lacks such an exclusive territory. To establish it, that territory must be taken from some other group. In Zionism's case, it was taken from the Arabs of Palestine. in White nationalism's case, it's been taken from a variety of people - and its continued rumblings keep talking about land-snatches from "lesser" people (lots of talk of establishing a white state in native-heavy South Dakota, not so much about establishing one in 99.99% white Iceland.)
"Lesser people" is also an important concept here. To establish this race-nation as such, the philosophy must insist upon the dfference form the people around its members. And of coruse theeasiest way to mark difference is in status. Andsince nobody wants to be lower status, the default is claiming that the race-nation is higher status. The nation of Islam insists that blacks are the special creation of god while white are pale imitations (hah hah) of the devil. White supremacism has a whole treasure trive of these sorts of ideas. Zionism actually lacked this in the early days, at least so obviously - the people already living in Palestine weren't considered lesser, they just weren't considered at all ("a land without a people" and all that) however it's since been readily adopted and incorporated into the philosophy.. perhaps because race-superiority is so easy and feels o rewarding to its adherents. it's like philosophical crack, and is just about as good for you.
And of course once established, the race-nation must remain pure. Else it stops being the race-nation, now doesn't it? if it has territory, it must be cleansed of "impurities" - whether those impurities are Indians, Arabs, Jews, Slavs, Armenians, or whoever. After all, not much use in having your race-nation territory if you're not the demographic majority (alternately you could use force of arms to subjugate the majority, as was done in South Africa, but that's a long-term expense and inherently unstable.) And of course the race-nation itself must keep "pure" by avoiding the out-groups. With Zionism we see these factors at work with the Nakba ethnic cleansing, all the way to modern concerns that mixed marriage will obliterate American Jews. We can see it elsewhere as in the railing against Spanish-language options here in the US, or just about anything the BNP says about immigration in your neck of the woods, plus the epithet "self-hating ________" or "race-traitor" used in pretty much every racist philosophy ever conceived.
And of course, there's the marriage of race and nation inherent to race-nationalism (like, duh.) if you criticize the race-nationalist philosophy, that must mean you hate that race - thus the SPLC becomes an anti-white organization according to white nationalists, anti-Zionists are derided as Jew-haters by Zionism, and if you have unkind things to say about Black separatism, you want to destroy the black race. This of course carries an inherent and internal element of self-racism, where members of the race are assumed to be "on board" with the philosophy, removing their individual self-determination... should they NOT be on board, they become disloyal, part of the enemy - "race traitors," "self-hating Jews," "Uncle toms."
The concept of enemies of the race-nation is important as well, and helps to bolster both the concepts of how the race-nation is separate and why "purity" is so tantamount. It's actually rather like how cults indoctrinate their members into believing everyone outside the cult is out to get them, as a means of isolating and entrapping the convert. When you believe that everyone in the out-groups is out to get you, any sort of fucked-up shit from the in-group is more acceptable because hey, at least they're family, right? it also serves as self0justification, "get them before they get us" in the case of violent movements. Further it's self-reinforcing, presenting the race-nation as a vulnerable cause to be defended from eradication - and it's always eradication, annihilation, and other apocalyptic fates. Apparently a race of people can only ever be wholly destroyed, never just jostled a bit. BUT REMEMBER WE'RE THE BEST AND STRONGEST EVER!!!!
These sort of ideologies are different from both standard nationalism and ethnic / cultural identity movements. The first is almost always an effort by the people of a territory to establish an independent state within that territory, usually of a pluralistic and equal nature - Scotland, for instance, will not be purging non-Scots from its territory, nor is it seeking to establish Scotland somewhere in Paraguay. The second recognizes human equality and differences within the group - chicano pride doesn't denigrate non-Mexican people nor does it claim that all Chicanos are of a unanimous and single voice and thought, the way race-nationalism does. There are of course sometimes exceptions, but they are not to be tolerated either, as they cross the rubric into racism and should be wholly opposed.
LeftishBrit
(41,202 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)oddly nothing much exists prior to 12/2013
Sadly it seems the French governments efforts to combat this are backfiring making the sign sort of an anti-establishment thing, which is sad.
King_David
(14,851 posts)It is very much an antisemitic thing.
check out these photographs.
http://k00ls.overblog.com/2013/12/pour-ceux-qui-pr%C3%A9tendent-que-la-quenelle-n-est-pas-un-geste-antis%C3%A9mite.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1223844
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I would guess it goes situation by situation in these cases
strangely little was said about the French relationship to this until after Hollande's visit to Ramallah, but I'm sure that had nothing to do with the current furor as to the quenelles French origins
that said if it is being interpreted as an antisemitic gesture those using it should beware of the consequences of such an ugly expression
King_David
(14,851 posts)They also have another common denominator : they all taken pictures of this "gesture" with Jewish museums or Holocaust museums or Jewish restaurants or Jewish anything in the background.
http://k00ls.overblog.com/2013/12/pour-ceux-qui-prétendent-que-la-quenelle-n-est-pas-un-geste-antisémite.html
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)which is French for no items found -very strange indeed
21. The 50+ pics at that link all look pretty similar to me...
They also have another common denominator : they all taken pictures of this "gesture" with Jewish museums or Holocaust museums or Jewish restaurants or Jewish anything in the background.
http://k00ls.overblog.com/2013/12/pour-ceux-qui-prétendent-que-la-quenelle-n-est-pas-un-geste-antisémite.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57997
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)the complete link into the URL, not just clicked it which would be an incomplete link
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)21. The 50+ pics at that link all look pretty similar to me...
They also have another common denominator : they all taken pictures of this "gesture" with Jewish museums or Holocaust museums or Jewish restaurants or Jewish anything in the background.
http://k00ls.overblog.com/2013/12/pour-ceux-qui-prétendent-que-la-quenelle-n-est-pas-un-geste-antisémite.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57997
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)2013
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)21. The 50+ pics at that link all look pretty similar to me...
They also have another common denominator : they all taken pictures of this "gesture" with Jewish museums or Holocaust museums or Jewish restaurants or Jewish anything in the background.
http://k00ls.overblog.com/2013/12/pour-ceux-qui-prétendent-que-la-quenelle-n-est-pas-un-geste-antisémite.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=57997
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)The special characters - é - mess up DU's linking abilities, apparently.
David's not wrong - shocking, I know! - the gesture is definitely being used in an antisemitic way here. However, if I had to wager a guess, most of these people are doing it for the "lol we're such dicks lol rofl" factor... thus my comparison to the Mohammed cartoon bullshit.
I'd be interested in an inspired observer keeping himself around some of these prominent sites, and making a point to ask these people why they're doing that. Not only for information, but also as a means of shaming - pointing at someone and screaming "NAZI!" causes this reaction (feeding the trolls, basically), but asking them, "why do you think that's a good idea?" is much more likely to shock them into the realization that they've gotten caught with their pants down and their asses dirty.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Last edited Mon Feb 17, 2014, 03:51 AM - Edit history (1)
he posted it twice on this thread the first worked the second in the post I linked to went to the same site but came up as no items found