LIVE UPDATES: Elderly woman killed in IDF strike on Gaza; rockets fired at Tel Aviv

[cali]

The Israeli air force expanded its offensive against Hamas militants in Gaza early Wednesday, as rocket fire on Israel's south, center and coastal plain continued.

Israel has attacked more than 160 targets since Tuesday and more than 170 rockets have been fired from Gaza during the same period, according to Israel Defense Forces estimates. Long-range rockets have reached Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and as far north as Hadera. The Iron Dome defense system has intercepted more than 45 rockets in the last 24 hours.

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A top Islamic Jihad militant was killed in the strikes, as well as five other Palestinians. Two more Palestinians, including an elderly woman, were killed as the strikes continued on Wednesday.

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12:40 P.M. A father and son were killed in an Israeli airstrike in Gaza, the Palestinian news agency Ma'an reports.

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http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.603913

And here's what I essentially think about the whole bloody awful mess- not that anyone should particularly give a damn:

It's tragic for both the Israelis and the Palestinians. There are sympathetic and revolting figures prominent on both sides. BUT, Israel has the greater power and thus the far greater responsibility AND ability to thwart the cycle of violence. Do I condemn without reservation, the firing of rockets into Israel? Absolutely. Does Israel always have to respond in the same heavy handed way? No. But inevitably they do.

The Palestinians are living under a demeaning and cruel occupation. The worst of it in my eyes, is the Israeli never ending expansion of settlements, which is hard NOT to see as a deliberate policy to grab more land and force the Palestinians into ever smaller communities on ever smaller and less contiguous territory in their own land. Yes, their own land. I cannot countenance the crap about how there is no Palestine and no Palestinian people. That really is racist crap.

The whole thing is most dispiriting. Does never again really mean the oppression of another people?

[Nevernose]

1. I mostly agree with you

I think where we disagree is on the settlements. I'm against them, but Hamas and the rockets are all based in Gaza, where Israel took out their last settlement a few years ago.

Hamas has no interest in peace and will use literally any excuse to launch rockets. The current Israeli government isn't particularly interested in peace, either.

Half of my wife's class (we're in Europe for the summer for her school) is Israeli, and most are leaving tonight. Many of them are in the reserves, and their military units have been activated.

[cali]

3. Hamas doesn't operate in a vacuum. The settlements in the WB are surely part

of their rationale- fucked up as their actions are.

I so don't get the "the Israelis left Gaza years ago" thing. Gaza is more or less an open air prison. It really is.

[Nevernose]

4. Lots of things are part of their "rationale"

That particular one, to me, doesn't hold water. The people actually suffering the relocations and the settlements aren't shooting rockets, although they are perfectly capable of doing so. In fact, it's certainly easier for West Bank Palestinians to get the materials (which is why Gaza is basically a prison -- the stupid rockets). Hamas is shooting rockets on their behalf. Furthermore, the reason Israel tore down the Gaza settlement was ostensibly because Hamas said that was the reason they were shooting rockets, and no more settlement would mean no more rockets. That was not the case and is one of the reasons Israel is now so reluctant (again, ostensibly) to negotiate over the West Bank settlements.

Personally, I think the abduction of the three hitchhikers wasn't even Hamas, but the work of a die-hard splinter faction of Hamas hellbent on disrupting the recent Palestinian unity government and the peace talks that had just begun. Members of this group of been successfully derailing peace talks for fifteen years or more, and the suspects -- who were actually identified by the PA to the Israelis -- are close family members of this faction.

But mostly I feel sorry for the forty dead people in Gaza (so far) and the millions of people who will go to bed tonight listening to missiles fly back and forth, wondering if the next one will land on THEIR house.

[ellenrr]

2. to the question, "Does 'never again' really mean the oppression of another people??"

A historian/writer (whose name will come to me later) said this:

After the Holocaust there were two kinds of Jews:
those who said: this must never happen to us again.

and those who said:
this must never happen to anyone again.

[Scootaloo]

5. Funny, I was assured the other day that Israeli missiles only kill rockets n/t

[Fozzledick]

6. No you weren't - and you got called out on that lie

Why do you think you can get away with it now?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113466312#post80

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113466312#post89

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113466312#post90

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113466312#post113

[Scootaloo]

7. Indeed I was

Once again; I'm talking about the risk of innocents being killed. Your response is to tell me it's rockets being "targeted."

I offered you the option of telling me about these wonderfully humane missiles that only target rockets, that only hit rockets, because the alternative, is to call you out for your otherwise obvious dismissal of human beings killed while "targeting" these "rockets."



So you're saying that Israel possesses no magic rocket-only missiles? Okay. I guess that narrows it down, as to what you're getting at.

[Fozzledick]

8. Same shit, different day

You can't deny the truth of what I actually said, so you make up your own strawman and argue with it to change the subject. Dishonest and worthless.

[Scootaloo]

9. I'm pointing out the irrelevancy of what you said.

You might balm your conscience by telling yourself "it's only rockets!" but the reality is that people are getting killed.

What to do when the train rattles by? Sing louder!

[Fozzledick]

10. What I said was that destroying rockets before they're fired prevents them from being fired.

Anyone who cares to know the truth can follow the links above.

You've been caught lying about it twice and you're still trying to double-talk your way out of it.

[Scootaloo]

11. And you say that in response to my talking about the cost in human lives

I have two questions.

1) What assurances do you have that the "rockets" being targeted are actually present
and
2) is there an upper limit to the number of people it's permissible to turn into shredded barbeque in the endeavor?

[Fozzledick]

12. No, I said that in response to your claim that attacking the rockets in Gaza wouldn't stop them.

Why do you keep digging yourself deeper with more lies?