Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumAl Jazeera... Israel Killed Mostly Combatant-Age Males, Not Women or Children
Al Jazeera’s Gaza Fatalities Data Indicates Israel Killed Mostly Combatant-Age Males, Not Women or ChildrenData published by Al Jazeera on Monday shows that in its ongoing operation in Gaza Israel killed mainly combatant-age males, not women or children, according to CAMERA, the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, contradicting media reports that tried to paint Israel’s Operation Protective Edge as indiscriminately killing civilians....
..."Notably, only about 12 percent of the total fatalities are female, though females make up half the population,” CAMERA said. “Also, the median age of Gazans is reported to be around 15. Males under 15 make up just 13 percent of the total fatalities even though they represent half of all males in the Gaza Strip.”
CAMERA graphed a breakdown of the 150 reported male fatalities, excluding 19 whose ages were not listed, though the group noted that one of those was described as a member of Islamic Jihad. Due to space constraints, it also excluded three deaths of males over 65, with a total of 128 on the chart. The chart shows that 83 deaths were of men between the ages of 16 and 39, 28 were men over 40 years old and 20 were under 16 years old. CAMERA also noted that the “information provided by Qatar-owned Al Jazeera should not be accepted at face value, as the emirate has close ties to the Hamas-led Gazan government,” and said it would update its analysis as more data was released.
The group concluded that the analysis bore out is conclusion: “Media coverage often parrots the line fed by Gazan authorities that ‘most of the casualties are civilians’ despite the well-established propensity of Gazan authorities to exaggerate the proportion of civilian casualties.” The conflict has also been characterized as a “media war,” where Hamas supporters have flooded social media channels with photos of gruesome deaths, often from the ongoing Syria conflict in 2012, to elicit more sympathy for their cause.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/15/watchdog-al-jazeeras-gaza-fatalities-data-indicates-israel-killed-mostly-combatant-age-males-not-women-or-children/
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Warpy
(111,174 posts)Wow.
Of course, it's probably the most pro Israel thing we'll ever see there, but it's important information and it's good it's getting out.
cali
(114,904 posts)
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)second link to a blog site. Not even a very good piece of attempted propaganda.
Beware Shira.
.............
Ashraf al-Qedra, a spokesman for the Gaza health ministry, is providing Al Jazeera with a list the names of those killed since the start of Israel's campaign on Monday, July 7. Casualties on the Israeli side are also listed below. The list is updated regularly.
1. Mohammed Shaaban, 24, killed in Gaza.
2. Amjad Shaaban, 30, killed in Gaza.
3. Khader al-Bashiliki, 45, killed in Gaza.
4. Rashad Yassin, 27, killed in the Nusseirat refugee camp.
5. Mohammed Ayman Ashour, 15, killed in Khan Younis.
6. Riad Mohammed Kawareh, 50, killed in Khan Younis.
7. Bakr Mohammed Judeh, 22, killed in Khan Younis.
8. Ammar Mohammed Judeh, 26, killed in Khan Younis.
9. Hussein Yousef Kawareh, 13, killed in Khan Younis.
10. Mohammed Ibrahim kawareh, 50, killed in Khan Younis.
11. Mohammed Aahed Habib, 22, killed in Gaza.
12. Ahmed Moussa Habib, 16, killed in Gaza.
13. Saqr Ayesh al-Ajuli, 22, killed in Jabalia.
14. Ahmed Nael Mahdi, 16, killed in Gaza.
15. Basil Salem Kawareh, 10, killed in Khan Younis.
16. Hafez Mohammed Hamad, 30, Islamic Jihad commander, killed in Beit Hanoun.
17. Ibrahim Mohammed Hamad, 26 killed in Beit Hanoun.
18. Mahdi Mohammed Hamad, 46 killed in Beit Hanoun.
19. Fawziya Khalil Hamad, 62, killed in Beit Hanoun.
20. Dunya Mahdi Hamad, 16, killed in Beit Hanoun.
21. Suha Hamad, 25, killed in Beit Hanoun.
22. Suleiman Salman Abu Sowaween, 22, killed in Deir al-Balah.
23. Siraj Ayad Abdelal, 8, killed in Khan Younis.
24. Abdel Hadi Jumaa al-Sufi, 24.
25. Rashid al-Kafarneh, 30, killed in Beit Hanoun.
26. Nayfeh Farajallah, 80,
27. Abdel Nasser Abu Kweik, 60, killed in Beit Hanoun.
28. Khaled Abu Kweik, 31, killed in Beit Hanoun.
29. Mohammed Arif, 13, killed in Gaza.
Etc.
shira
(30,109 posts)....who are of combatant age. Look at the list yourself and make your own chart.
cali
(114,904 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)It says that 83 were males between the ages of 16 and 89. It then goes on tell us that men over 40 listed are likely Hamas with no fucking evidence. It's a pile of shit assumptions. And btw, 200 fatalities and 1500 casualties. So even with the disgusting dishonest dog shit interpretation of numbers, it's obvious that most fatalities and casualties are CIVILIANS.
SHAME SHAME SHAME
PCIntern
(25,491 posts)You must have attended quite the junior high school if you learned to posit arguments in this manner.
Very persuasive...
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Live with it.
PCIntern
(25,491 posts)Should I alert on your post? As a male I am deeply offended by your choice of words. Don't tell me that you don't know what I'm talking about, either.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I'd love to see you try and explain how that is hateful.
Please, I insist.
PCIntern
(25,491 posts)You know what that means...it isn't nice to say that to a fellow DUer. Even if I'm a Zionist.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)and find out that you are wrong.
Please proceed, PCIntern.
PCIntern
(25,491 posts)Typical.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=69897
As you were saying?
So where is your alert?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)verb
Pegged is defined as identified as or labeled as something.
When you have identified someone as a mean person, this is an example of a time when you have him pegged as mean.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/pegged
if there's another meaning in the given context let me know
cali
(114,904 posts)more than adequate. This silly prissy (repetitive) complaining about my (gasp) cursing; fails to address anything substantive. Now please; do return to defending the use of right wing Israeli propaganda.
PCIntern
(25,491 posts)you cannot help but to descend into vituperative, brazenly obscene discussion since your argument has no merit or Higher Order Truth. "Live with it" as your boyfriend above stated to me in his rant.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Nobody is stopping you.
Please proceed, PCIntern.
arcane1
(38,613 posts) shira
(30,109 posts)...that Israel's attacks are indiscriminate. If that were so, roughly half the dead would be children...and half the dead would be female. That's not the case according to Al Jazeera's list.
cali
(114,904 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)If I ever met you and the Grand Wizz in person I'm not sure that I could say there is really any daylight between the two of you.
shira
(30,109 posts)….portraying the Jewish state (the collective Jew) as a uniquely apartheid, baby-killing, nazi state committing genocide & every other conceivably vile & depraved act against innocent Hamasniks and Islamic Jihadis who only fight in order to bring about a peaceful 2 state resolution.
Of course I realize that Israel's most hostile critics will counter that there's absolutely no bigotry involved in these baby-killing allegations against genocidal and apartheid, nazi Israel.
None at all.
The US in Pakistan, UK in Iraq, France in Mali, and NATO in Kosovo were all described the exact same way by "concerned" humanitarians. They all killed a significantly higher proportion of civilians. But it's not bigotry against Israel. Not possible...
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)You are just exposing your own.
Igel
(35,282 posts)And this kind of meta-analysis of the death stats has been done for pretty much every "operation" like this.
Instead of people, think of marbles in a jar.
If half are black and half are red and you pull out 100 of them at random--"indiscriminately"--you expect to get about half black and half red.
Now let's say that half of the red balls have a white spot on them and half of the black balls have a white spot on them, but it in no way alters the texture or the mass or size. In other words, when you reach in to pull out a ball at random, it's still at random.
Now half of the balls should be red and half black; half of the balls should have a white spot on them--and half of the red balls should have a white spot on them and half of the black balls should have a white spot on them. Replace "red" by "female," "black" by "male," "ball" by Gazan, and "white spot" by "under the median age" and you get the meta-analysis.
The age breakdown is a bit off, I figure that most combatants or wanna-be combatants aren't going to be geriatric. Perhaps they just don't evacuate houses quickly enough. Some will be figures that might easily be licit targets, though--in this kind of operation you don't want to target just the low-level cannon fodder, you want to target senior leaders and in a politico-religious organization some of those senior leaders might be religious leaders. Some might actually be senior. Perhaps able-bodied men are forced to help the aged true civilians evacuate. Perhaps they refuse to yield their ground. But that's a very big skew to make these fig leaves cover.
This is the usual problem in this kind of conflict, though: The difference between a dead civilian and a dead combatant is whether he has a gun in his hand. If somebody picked up his gun and took it, if he's a bomb maker or an organizer, if he's near a mortar launcher, he's a "civilian" because you can't prove otherwise.
It's the same issue as in E Ukraine. A lot of "rebels" stopped shooting at soldiers, stopped guarding hostages, stopped raiding places of employment and went home to their families and changed into civvies. Then they left Slavyansk dressed in civilian clothes and just searching their cars or blocking their egress is a harsh violation of libertiers--fascist, some might say. But as soon as they got to the university dorm and changed, those "peaceful civilians" were again insurgents and valid military targets. Avakov said this was happening, and there was the usual values-laden firestorm: Do you stop the 400 cars leaving the city at a strange hour of the night or let them go, knowing that most of them are likely fighters that are regrouping and will be trying to kill your men in the morning, mocking them for letting them escape? Civil society was torn: On the one hand, it upheld oft-held values. On the other hand, upholding those values meant that a lot of mother's sons are being killed. For the Ukrainians, who still think of the Donbas folk as somehow "their" people, it was easier than for the Israelis who don't consider the Gazans to be "their" people.
shira
(30,109 posts)Numbers from Al-Jazeera indicate exactly that.
There was no claim from CAMERA that all males killed were combatants. It seems our friends here are reading into things that just aren't there.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)and if you look at the more recent figures its become even more skewed towards them being male:-
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/rocket-deaths-israel.html
My guess is that men are more likely to think that they're far too tough to have to run towards shelter or abandon their homes.
cali
(114,904 posts)The only people reporting the shit that YOU are posting are partisan right wing hater bigots.
shira
(30,109 posts)
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)research and membership organization. According to its website, CAMERA is "devoted to promoting accurate and balanced coverage of Israel and the Middle East."[3] The group says it was founded in 1982 "to respond to the Washington Post's coverage of Israel's Lebanon incursion", and to respond to what it considers the media's "general anti-Israel bias".[4]
CAMERA is known for its pro-Israel media monitoring and advocacy.[5][6][7][8] CAMERA releases reports to counter what it calls "frequently inaccurate and skewed characterizations of Israel and of events in the Middle East" that it believes may fuel anti-Israel and anti-Jewish prejudice.[3] The group mobilizes protests against what it describes as unfair media coverage by issuing full-page ads in newspapers,[9] organizing demonstrations,[10] and encouraging sponsors to withhold funds.[10] CAMERA has over 65,000 paying members[1][11] and states that 46 news outlets have issued corrections based on their work.[12]
Criticism by CAMERA
See also: National Public Radio § Criticism, Encarta, Munich (film) § Controversies and The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy § Criticism
Among the organizations and works that have been criticized by CAMERA are:
ABC News anchor Peter Jennings
"We've long considered him anti-Israel", CAMERA's founder Andrea Levin has commented of Peter Jennings, after an incident in which CAMERA, and eventually also the Columbia Journalism Review, took issue with Jennings and ABC News for refusing to correct an alleged misquote of Benjamin Netanyahu.[25]
National Public Radio
CAMERA's report, "A Record of Bias: National Public Radio's Coverage of the Arab-Israeli Conflict: September 26 – November 26, 2000" (2001) asserted that National Public Radio's "coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict has long been marred by a striking anti-Israel tilt, with severe bias, error and lack of balance commonplace."[26] CAMERA supported a boycott of NPR, and demanded the firing of NPR's foreign editor, Loren Jenkins. CAMERA said that Jenkins had a long record of partisanship in favor of Palestinian views, and let his personal views tilt NPR's coverage. CAMERA also said Jenkins compared Israel to Nazi Germany in his writings, and referred to it as a "colonizer".[27][28][29]
in full:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_Accuracy_in_Middle_East_Reporting_in_America
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)anyone interested, available on the net.
CAMERA is respected by you.
shira
(30,109 posts)Of course, Hamas officials have no reason to lie about casualty figures when they report to the press & human rights groups, right?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Have support for that?
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)rely on Hamas figures alone.
If you knew how they collected information you would stop trying to smear them...hopefully.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)on Hamas data.
shira
(30,109 posts)Otherwise, there's no point going on.
And until B'tselem condemns Hamas for using Palestinians cynically as human shields, they have no credibility as a human rights organization. They're first and foremost a political organization when they're supporting Hamas propaganda.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)based on a guy who may very well be off to the Hague himself.
shira
(30,109 posts)You know very well what Hamas is doing to them, and yet you continually use NGO's who cover for Hamas war crimes.
Why?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)They just don't write them as you would...out of presumptions and bias.
shira
(30,109 posts)That's a fact.
You're pretending otherwise, and you have no evidence backing your claim.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)I'm sure you'll provide it, for the record...
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)We've discussed this before on other threads where you defended HRW and Amnesty for not reporting on Hamas human shields.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Response to shira (Reply #35)
cerveza_gratis This message was self-deleted by its author.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)CAMERA is respected by a lot of people. Thomas Friedman for example. Who, despite whether or not you agree with his opinions, is a Pulitzer winning journalist. (There's an op ed he did referencing CAMERA in the nyt if you care to google it.)
CANERA's main bias comes from it's selective reporting, not false data or inaccurate translations. While this form of journalism makes them a poor source for large-picture journalism, it doesn't impact the accuracy of their issue-specific findings.
If their data is good enough to get props from TR, (and Al Jazeera), then it should be considered accurate enough for our purposes. It's not exactly like AJ is so pro Israel as to wantonly publish data that skews biased in their favor.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)But the bottom line is in the details and will CAMERA's line up with many human rights groups in the
end? See what I'm saying? Where there are many discrepancies there will be questions to be
answered and they'll be asked how they came to their conclusions.
There will be undoubtedly much time spent on the break down of the information and in the end
if CAMERA remains a lone voice on this, it will not serve them well. Most reliable human
rights reports, I believe there were hundreds of reports from different groups after OCL,
and they were consistent for the most part in their consensus findings.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)This is just graphing the raw data provided by Hamas itself. What exactly is there to question? You could easily check their results yourself if you wanted to.
cali
(114,904 posts)but you stick with it Shira. Show exactly what you are.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)Every reputable source says the same thing: 70% of casualties in Gaza from the bombardments are civilians. Next thing you know, YOU will be claiming the kids bombed to death on the beach today, were really very small enemy combatants; height challenged Hamas members.
And why aren't you linking to A-J. Oh oops, I'm addressing someone who uses right wing reactionary sources most of the time.
Disgusting. Really disturbing that YOU are trying to minimize civilian deaths. Make me nauseous.
38 children have died from Israel's bombs:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/fullpage?id=24572524
From Al-Jazeera:
<snip>
On Friday, the United Nations said 77 percent of those killed in the Israeli raids were civilians.
Al Jazeera's Stefanie Dekker, reporting from Al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City, said medical facilities in the territory were overwhelmed.
"Most of the casualties we are seeing here are, overwhelmingly, civilians. It really is a horrendous scene," she said. People are absolutely terrified. The hospitals are having issues with the lack of materials to deal with the people coming in."
<snip>
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-death-toll-soars-with-no-sign-lull-2014712215122443488.html
UN: 80 per cent of Palestinians killed in Israeli offensive are civilians
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10967279/UN-80-per-cent-of-Palestinians-killed-in-Israeli-offensive-are-civilians.html
This may well be a new low for you, Shira. You seem determined to outdo yourself. You should apologize for this. It's disgraceful.
shira
(30,109 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)If you don't think Hamas officials have reason to lie about civilian casualty figures, I've got a bridge to sell you. One article after the next, including video, shows Hamas wants Palestinian civilian fatalities maximized, not minimized. Western media is getting their information primarily from Hamas officials.
cali
(114,904 posts)rely on.
vile.
shira
(30,109 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)Any evidence whatsofucking ever that any of those kids were Hamas? No, of course not.
SHAME SHAME SHAME
shira
(30,109 posts)They may be picky as to what they report, but what they report is honest and accurate.
msongs
(67,368 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)Imagine that. All this time I mistakenly thought I was a civilian.
cali
(114,904 posts)Evidently your right wing rah rah Israel can do no wrong sources are counting 13 year olds and those over 60 as "combatant age". Disgusting. Really inexcusable.
You object to EI? Can't say I care for it either, but I'm consistent. YOU? you complain bitterly about EI but use sources every bit as vile. Worse. It's disgraceful.
SHAME ON YOU.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)Using the worst right wing fuckwad asswipe hater bigot sources and then complaining bitterly about A-I. Ugh.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)trying to justify civilian deaths in this way- by strongly insinuating that these deaths aren't REALLY civilians is morally repugnant to anyone with a even a bit of moral fiber.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)in an open air prison. Now the prisoners have rioted and they are seeking justifications for the slaughter.
cali
(114,904 posts)It's both frightful and frightening- and I speak up when I see it on either side of I/P. I will not let this go.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)purportedly indoctrinating 3 year olds to "kill Jews", it had a written translation...it was removed 6 to 1, the one guy who liked it thanked the poster for the information......
shira
(30,109 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)are hostile to your requests? tone deaf.
shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Here's one source of many:
http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=582&doc_id=514
You expect better from Hamas?
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Israel buys tweets to promote Gaza escalation
PM Netanyahu steps up PR efforts on social media
Using public relations efforts to build public support for military action is not a new idea. But spending money on tweets to shape global perceptions may be the next frontier for such efforts. Hayes Brown, Editor at ThinkProgress, posted this screenshot of a promoted tweet from the official Twitter account of the Prime Minister of Israel, seeking to build support for an escalation of Israeli military operations in Gaza.
http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201407161104-0023931
shira
(30,109 posts)And if I had a dime for every tweet or post, that and .50 cents...
cali
(114,904 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Denying it only empowers Hamas to keep putting children in combatant/military roles...
3,000 Gaza teens graduate Hamas terror school
http://www.timesofisrael.com/3000-gaza-teens-graduate-hamas-terror-school/
cali
(114,904 posts)save it for someone who will buy it. YOU are trying to cast kids as combatants. It's reprehensible.
SHAME SHAME SHAME
shira
(30,109 posts)...as combatants is bullshit, despite one article after the next reporting it.
Why the denial?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Shameful! Have you nothing to say about those dead babies? I would like to talk about the children playing on the beach with nowhere to run. They were not enemy combatants. They were babies playing on the beach. Same age as my kids.
shira
(30,109 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)Yeah, you know.
cali
(114,904 posts)to your post.
shira
(30,109 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)The NYT did in in-depth piece about this and as reporters on scene stated, after the first bombing of the fishing shack, they fired again- at the kids who were, according to witnesses, unmistakably children.
Here is an eye witness account:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.605568
Israel is investigating- but let's face it, in cases like this there is a need for an outside investigation. Too much vested interest does not make for impartial investigations.
Edited to add this excerpt from the Haaretz piece:
The IDF Spokesperson unit had difficulty coming up with an explanation for the explosions which killed the four children and wounded others and it took a few hours for them to begin to respond. Toward 8 P.M they began briefing reporters that the first explosion was most likely caused by an attack on a "legitimate" Hamas target and the second the result of misidentification of the fleeing children as Hamas fighters. The incident is still under investigation, said IDF Spokesperson Brigadier General Moti Almoz. He said on Channel One that "we understand there was a target which was hit after suspects were identified.
Remember that Hamas uses civilians as live targets opposite IDF. I don't know officers and soldiers who intentionally act against civilians." Almoz said that from what the IDF knows so far "this wasn't fire by the navy but likely an IAF strike."
Beaumont says that he has no idea what the target could have been. "The building that was hit was just a shipping container next to where one of the kids' father keeps his boat and stores fishing nets. The kids were just playing hide and seek there. They shoot missiles (against Israel) from this neighborhood but none from that location."
shira
(30,109 posts)Until then, I don't trust anything coming out of Gaza.
I don't see how anyone here can trust anything come out of Gaza when it's known Hamas is very strict about what information gets reported from there.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)No, indeed they did not! It's more than tragic. It was no accident. An accident is tragic. This looked like human brutality at it's finest. Stop saying human shields, okay? Everytime i see it written my eyes see those limp bodies in the sand, lifeless eyes staring me in my brutal American face.
shira
(30,109 posts)…and after that, they mistakenly took the kids running as militants. An investigation is ongoing.
Realize that it's incidents like these Israel is desperately trying to avoid. If you don't believe they give a shit about Palestinian kids, then keep believing it and chalk it up to Israel trying to avoid bad PR. But it's tragedies like these that put enormous pressure on Israel to stop going after Hamas, and that's not something Israel wants at all. They're trying to keep the operation as clean as possible. The problem is war is always messy, mistakes and bad things happen & that's why war should be avoided at all costs.
cali
(114,904 posts)was a Hamas enlistee. Not a shred. Why the callous deflection? why the attempt to cast Palestinian children as terrorists.
SHAME SHAME SHAME on YOU.
shira
(30,109 posts)....were killed indiscriminately, and if that's the case we should see half women, half men killed. Half children, half adults. The breakdown tells a different story. That's the entire claim, nothing more.
cali
(114,904 posts)endorse, shira. disingenuous claim from you. You wear it with such ease.
shira
(30,109 posts)…spewed from many who are motivated to portray Israel as bloodthirsty, baby killers who indiscriminately target Palestinians due to racism, hatred, etc. The numbers show otherwise.
There is simply no other example worldwide where a nation is attacked, not allowed to defend itself, and when it does it is viciously condemned due to being held to an impossibly higher standard than fellow western nations. It's bigotry, and we all damned well know it. No point denying it.
Response to cali (Reply #43)
cerveza_gratis This message was self-deleted by its author.
cali
(114,904 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)But you have immense fondness for wingnut sources. that's what you use most of the time here.
babylonsister
(171,036 posts)What's your point?
shira
(30,109 posts)babylonsister
(171,036 posts)imthevicar
(811 posts)Bullshit!
cali
(114,904 posts)
MFM008
(19,803 posts)I dont care if they are 30, 60, or 5. Israel is using made in USA weapons and 3 billion in taxpayers dollars, Hamas probably Iranian or Russian made. Probably Saudi money. It just needs to stop. stop, stop.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)At dehumanizing Palestinians. Being combat age doesn't make them combatants.
And what about the four children killed on the beach? They were not 'combat age'.
Shameful.
cali
(114,904 posts)Lying sacks of hateful shit sources.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I used to get all bent out of shape and argue for days about it. Now i have learned to expect and accept it. It is very difficult.
cali
(114,904 posts)side. Ever.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I find it refreshing to see you back here. I agree, everybody needs to keep it clean and factual. And i think we need to have a discussion about sources. As in which ones are acceptable and which ones are not from either side.
mazzarro
(3,450 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shameful double standard, by that measure all 3 of Israeli youths abducted and killed were of age to be combatants
cali
(114,904 posts)I went through the data and their stinking mischaracterizations, such as the statement that it's likely that men over 40 are likely Hamas- or some such bilge.
Honestly, I don't think this should be allowed here.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and decency, also I'm not too sure what is thought about how this helps Israel's image IMO it doesn't
cali
(114,904 posts)and you know I'll call it as I see it whatever side it comes from.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Shows strength to manipulate facts.
shira
(30,109 posts)...just that they are of combatant age, as opposed to women and children that would indicate indiscriminate wonton killings.
cali
(114,904 posts)Warpy
(111,174 posts)Their editorial bias is well known. However, if one wants a news cast done in neutral language with no opinion thrown in, they're the place to go. Their in depth news stories are first rate.
I watch very little of any news station. However, i find broadcast news and most cable news to be infotainment, with their editorial bias on their sleeves and their announcers editorializing constantly. It's refreshing to hear neutral news without loaded language. It makes me remember how the Big Three used to be before they got bought up by mega corporations.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I need to take a third look.
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)No matter how much you want to quibble over how to classify "military age" men, the difference in proportion of men to women and children in the casualties compared to the general population clearly demonstrates that Israel is not deliberately or indiscriminately targeting civilians.
cali
(114,904 posts)there are lies in there and fact twisting. I read the right wing dogshit. Look I will call it wherever it comes from. That op today about Hamas as freedom fighters? I alerted the forum hosts to it. I have no use for bigoted dog shit on either side.
Period.
shira
(30,109 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Hundreds dead, and the only thing the Israel cheerleaders care about is trying to deflect blame from their precious rightwing racist Likudnik government.
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)of the Israeli government, or whether it tends to work against the agenda of the Israeli government.
Israel cannot fail, Israel can only be failed.
Nothing Israel does is ever Israel's fault.
Every word that Sarah Palin and Ted Cruz say about Israel is correct.
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)no pun intended, massive overkill.
Hamas is at fault. Israel is at fault.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)shows exactly how likely a two-state solution is, given the mindset of Israel and its supporters.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Just because a lot of males killed are "combatant" age does not mean they are combatants. From the press reports we get, a lot of them obviously aren't.
This thread deserves to be attacked as totally transparent pro-Israeli propaganda. That's the clear story.
shira
(30,109 posts)It turned out that the ratio of civilians to combatants killed was 1:1.
The UN estimate that there has been an average three-to-one ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in such conflicts worldwide. Three civilians for every combatant killed.
That is the estimated ratio in Afghanistan: three to one. In Iraq, and in Kosovo, it was worse: the ratio is believed to be four-to-one. Anecdotal evidence suggests the ratios were very much higher in Chechnya and Serbia.
In Gaza, it was less than one-to-one.”[52]
Media everywhere back then went with Hamas' accounts. Hamas predictably lied. They were caught. And the media is doing it again, now. Hamas is to be trusted again, for some reason…
Where will you be once the numbers in this conflict are authenticated?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)have settled much of which Kemp can deny until the cows come home..won't change anything.
Your insistence that the press was supportive of Hamas propaganda is an outrageous and false
claim.
Kemps reputation is tainted on war crimes, in general:
War crimes: Why is Britain in the dock again?
As the International Criminal Court examines fresh claims of abuse by our troops in Iraq, we look at whether senior figures could find themselves on trial for war crimes at The Hague
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10830895/War-crimes-Why-is-Britain-in-the-dock-again.html
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)who may qualify for the Hague himself...reliable.
shira
(30,109 posts)…Gazan civilians as human shields. If I were to show you video evidence and asked you about Hamas using human shields, you'd certainly deny it right now.
This type of NGO advocacy only encourages Hamas to keep doing it. Your NGO's are helping Hamas kill more and more Palestinian civilians. That's a fact.
It doesn't get more vile and depraved than that.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Do you make things up as you go along about people or what?
shira
(30,109 posts)….for this conflict, despite all the video evidence proving it.
They denied it altogether during OCL in 2008-09.
Therefore, they support Hamas' program to have as many Palestinians killed as possible for vile propaganda purposes.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)….you rely on for the I/P conflict.
That's a fact.
So they're encouraging Hamas to keep trying to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible, for propaganda purposes.
=========
Here's Samantha Power just 2 hours ago regarding Hamas human shielding in UN facilities:
https://twitter.com/AmbassadorPower/status/489843456206856192
Your NGO's deny that this happens.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)….committed against the Palestinian people.
I don't know why you continue to rely on them.
Can u explain why?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Of course not. No one is suggesting that they are.
The op is about statistics. If Israel is truly bombing indiscriminately then we would expect to see casualty stats which roughly correspond to gaza's demographics. That there's such a large discrepancy suggests that Israel is indeed legitimately targeting specific sites.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)Hamas's cynical strategy of murdering their own people is unjustifiable.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113469388
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)That looks to be deliberate murder of civilians. Absolutely indefensible, though I'm sure the propagandists here will link to a RW source in their efforts to do so.
JEFF9K
(1,935 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)targeting them deliberately.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)America is a close second.
shira
(30,109 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)trash. You keep good company, shira. You are what you....
shira
(30,109 posts)Meanwhile, your opinions are based primarily on what comes out of Gaza (Hamas controlled).
We're talking really bad propaganda there, intended to demonize Israel.
cali
(114,904 posts)does, demonstrates that clearly. You are what you are. YOU demonize. You lionize. You show no ability to grasp that Israel is ever at fault. You are what you are, Shira, partisan to the core- and that's the kindest thing I can say to you.
shira
(30,109 posts)….there's demonization which I always condemn. When folks here use Hamas propaganda (and many here seem unaware of it) I believe I'm justified in countering such dis-information.
I wish Hamas had agreed to a ceasefire several days ago. Many hundreds of lives would be saved. If the world condemned Hamas rockets before Israel had to respond, no lives would be lost and that's a fact. It's a shame the world only wakes up when Israel responds to Hamas. By that time it's too late.
cali
(114,904 posts)YOU are the chief propagandist on either side in I/P. YOU are the pusher of the ugliest right wing shit here. Period.
Morally indefensible is what your posts are. day after day after fucking day.
it's become grotesque.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)As well as all the combatant age men who weren't combatants.
You Israeli propagandists are amazing--and not in a good way.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)
....about time someone stood up to shira and her Right wing propoganda .
Here shira .... have a read of this link :
http://972mag.com/i-am-the-woman-who-translates-the-names-of-the-dead/93701/
Read this article in Hebrew on Local Call.
cali
(114,904 posts)be accepted here- whatever its source and pov.
Notafraidtoo
(402 posts)Thanks for pointing out that the Israeli government is just killing peoples fathers,sons and grandfathers in a apartheid state that can't defend themselves who have to deal with a few insane terrorist shooting a few rockets in their name,later you can kill and arrest children who are throwing rocks because they are tired of being oppressed. I still think you are Israeli military intelligence, you can report this one to and all these "antisemitic liberals" will vote to hide my post again.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)but ref : " I still think you are Israeli military intelligence " is seriously silly stuff .
shira is an American , she says she is a Democrat ....although I just dont understand how a Democrat can post the stuff she posts .
but what do I know about American politics ....not much .
since I joined here I have been trying hard to understand and I still dont get how so many American Jewish Democrats on here can support the actions of this extremely Right wing Gov of ours .
been told many times that they all think the same ....well I doubt that very much .
here is one who obviously does not :
King_David
(14,851 posts)And you say you are Israeli ?
For years I have been trying to find out why so many Democratic Party supporters are do homophobic in this forum .
Can't explain it either.
shira
(30,109 posts)…have views that are shared by NO other Democrats in Congress or the Senate.
But we're out of touch.
If Dems had the same views of Israel as the most hostile critics here in this forum, there would be no Dems in office today.
cali
(114,904 posts)and lots of dems outside of Congress feel that Israel is doing much to be criticized for.
You have a thoroughly distorted point of view and you refuse to admit that Israel is doing anything wrong. It's disgusting- as disgusting as those that compare Israelis to Nazis.
shira
(30,109 posts)Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)Not that that's unusual on this "Democratic" forum, but some take it to mind boggling extremes:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=66951
I'm amazed that that guy is still here, but he obviously has his fans.
shira
(30,109 posts)…is controlled by the evil (Zionist) empire.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)to authority seems to be what you're relying on. Let's not abandon a review of the American political
system dynamic here; I believe this brings clarity and more honesty to the situation:
snip* Third, Israel is "singled out" today, but by its friends and not just by its enemies. It has been singled out for unparalleled support - financial, military, diplomatic - by the western powers. It is indeed, to quote Ben-Ami, a "special case".
Which other country is in receipt of $3billion a year in US aid, despite maintaining a 47-year military occupation in violation of international law? Which other country has been allowed to develop and stockpile nuclear weapons in secret?
Which other country's prime minister could "humiliate" - to quote the newspaper Ma'ariv - a sitting US vice-president on his visit to Israel in March 2010, yet still receive 29 standing ovations from Congress on his own visit to the US a year later? And which other country is the beneficiary of comically one-sided resolutions on Capitol Hill, in which members of Congress fall over each other to declare their undying love and support for Israel - by 410 to eight, or 352 to 21, or 390 to five?
Indeed, which other country has been protected from UN Security Council censure by the US deployment of an astonishing 42 vetoes? For the record, the number of US vetoes exercised at the UN on behalf of Israel is greater than the number of vetoes exercised by all other UN member states on all other issues put together. Singling out, anyone?
Fourth, the inconvenient truth is that we in the west can happily decry the likes of, say, Assad or Ayatollah Khamenei yet we can do little to influence their actual behaviour. Have sanctions stopped Assad's killing machine? Or Iran's nuclear programme? In contrast, we have plenty of leverage over Israel - from trade deals to arms sales to votes at the UN. Israel is our special friend, our close ally.
further: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/israel-gaza_b_5591954.html?utm_hp_ref=tw
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)I challenge you to name one Democrat who holds views at least SOMEWHAT similar to your own on I/P.
Then we'll compare.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)would hope you would not resort to such tactics.
Interesting comment on the OP.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)It's ridiculous stuff to accuse Shira of being military intelligence for Israel. And I doubt that MI is as, er, dumb as to post this.
OregonBlue
(7,754 posts)science being used by Al Jazeera. They must be trying to compete with Fox Snooze.
cali
(114,904 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)…indiscriminately attacked. If they were, half the dead would be female and half would be children. This is intended to counter false reports that people are being indiscriminately attacked as a matter of policy. The same was argued back in 2008-09 until more information was gathered and the civilian to combatant ratio turned out being 1:1, rather than 4:1.
Response to shira (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
cali
(114,904 posts)forces- contain a cross-section of people. that means that there are crazies and haters within. Beyond that, the mindset of a military constantly engaged in action is hyperpartisan and ginned up. And the claim about Hamas using human shields has some truth, but c'mon, Gaza is tiny with people packed in. There is no way to protect civilians if they wanted to. History, btw, is not invariably prologue.
Israel has a 90+% success rate with Iron Shield in this latest bout. It doesn't need to act with such brutality. Israel is an occupier and its constant expansion of settlements shows a clear pattern of grabbing land.
You said "this is just another live war game for them". I fear you may be right. And that's callous and sick as hell.
shira
(30,109 posts)They were just busted when 20 missiles were found in a Gaza UN school.
Their officials are on video openly encouraging civilians to act as shields.
And you have the gall to accuse ME of defending every and any thing Israel does? Take that beam out of….
cali
(114,904 posts)That you can't see anything that Israel does as wrong is morally bankrupt. period.
fucking damn straight I can honestly say that about you. I can fucking prove over and over and over again that I don't tolerate hateful, dishonest bigotry from anyone here no matter which side they're on. duh.
Chew on these posts, shira. just look at them, shira. you are utterly blinded, shira. you have some nerve, shira:]
. Jaysus. Pappe is as full of shit as ever. As Shaaye said yesterday
in your now locked thread in which you defended Hamas and its actions, what is happening in Gaza is horrible enough without wrongly labeling it genocide. You don't seem to learn. Just about everyone, from both sides, castigated you for your garbage words.
Oh well, hopefully we won't have to put up with your shit stirring interminably.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113469763#post4
or this one:
or this one:
yes I was responding to you. You defended Hamas firing rockets with the rhetorical
question "So they shouldn't defend themselves?" in response to this comment: "Maybe they should stop firing rockets."
You then said:
You like the image of sitting ducks?
There is no other reasonable interpretation of your words. Now you're saying that "everyone should stop firing".
Yes, Israel has the greater responsibility. Yes what it's doing is disgusting and the deaths illustrate that all too vividly. Having said that Hamas is also repulsive and that they haven't killed but one, is due to Iron Dome- not to their lack of trying to kill civilians.
or this one:
those who slaughtered them.
furthermore, the move to establish a Jewish nation in Palestine far predates the Holocaust. And did you know that by 1900, Jerusalem was majority Jewish? However much people are in denial about it, that region is the historical homeland of Jews and there has always been a Jewish presence there.
As my old Classics professor once said: The Jews who went to Palestine during that period are like people falling/jumping from a burning building and landing on those below. No one is at fault. There really wasn't a solution.
As far as this statement:
The aggrieved party should be made whole by the aggrieving party
Extraordinary concept at worst and terrible choice of words at best: There is no making "whole" when 60% of a population is exterminated- and violently in a very short period of time.
I've been harshly critical of Israel vis a vis Palestine for years here, but I have no more use for the type of comment that YOU finish your post with. You are demonizing Israel and Israelis just exactly like others demonize Palestinians.
Ugh.
Or the dozens and dozens more in that vein that I've posted. I don't perpetrate and tolerate bigotry like you do, shira. I'm not a zealot, shira. I'm not blinded by hyperpartisanship like YOU, shira.
YOU are the one with a lot of fucking nerve. just try being honest- as a novelty.
shira
(30,109 posts)And you take all news reports coming out of Gaza as factually accurate, despite Hamas controlling what's reported out of that territory. Do you really believe journalists are allowed to criticize Hamas harshly while in Gaza? Hamas only allows their propaganda. Anyone not towing the line pays the price.
But you probably believe that questioning news coming out of Gaza is racist. I'm hateful for even bringing it up.
Meanwhile, you're treating Hamas with kid gloves while they victimize Palestinians you purport to care about.
cali
(114,904 posts)totally blind and one sided and devoid of compassion.
disgusting.
shira
(30,109 posts)….while claiming you have compassion for those very same Palestinians they victimize.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)I like this in particular.