Hamas Mega-Attack Planned through Gaza Terror Tunnels

[shira]

Last edited Fri Jul 25, 2014, 02:40 PM - Edit history (1)

IDF Excavation of the tunnels has resulted in the seizure of tons of Hamas supplies as well as the discovery of plans for future operations.

Hamas had apparently been preparing a murderous assault on Israeli civilian targets for the coming Jewish New Year Holiday, Rosh Hashanah, which begins on September 24, according anonymous sources in the Israeli security services, as reported today by the Israeli daily Maariv. The Hamas plan consisted of what was to be a surprise attack in which 200 fighters would be dispatched through each of dozens of tunnels dug by Hamas under the border from Gaza to Israel, and seize kibbutzim and other communities while killing and kidnapping Israeli civilians.

Israeli soldiers already frustrated a surprise assault by Hamas through one tunnel from Gaza into the Eshkol district of Israel on July 19. The Hamas fighters escaped back into the tunnel, but the clash cost the lives of two Israel Defense Force [IDF] troops.

Israel has reportedly discovered at least 30 tunnels, and has destroyed several of them by employing bulldozers. IDF excavation of the tunnels has resulted in the seizure of tons of Hamas supplies, as well as the discovery of plans for future operations. Clearly, the network of tunnels -- using hundreds of tons of concrete that might otherwise have been used by the Palestinians for building homes, shopping malls, parks, schools, hospitals and libraries -- indicates that Hamas had been preparing for an ongoing conflict for at least a year. According to the reports, each tunnel has arteries, veins, offshoots, and offshoots of the offshoots in intricate and complex arrangements. As one Israeli spokesman said, "There are two Gazas, one above ground and one below ground: an underground terrorist city."

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4516/hamas-mega-attack#.U9Jj9Nt8kXE.twitter

A mega-terror attack with 200 Hamasniks could've resulted in a catastrophe with 1000's of casualties.

[shira]

3. Lies are coming from the Pallywood Industry, enablers of Hamas. n/t

[HooptieWagon]

2. Thats why Israel is murdering children?

Are poopy-diapers a threat to Israel's security?

[shira]

4. That's what the Pallywood Industry would like u to believe, isn't it?

If you want to get all worked up and angry about civilian deaths, maybe you should 1st acknowledge Hamas sets it up so that civilian casualties are maximized. They're deliberately making hospitals, mosques, homes, and schools into military targets. Without acknowledging this, people tend to make all kinds of preposterous, absurd statements like you just did.

[msongs]

19. so blame somebody else for our personal choices is now considered a legal defense. cool nt

[shira]

20. Better to defend/enable Hamas' war crimes against its own people, right? n/t

[azurnoir]

10. Pallywood coined by Richard Landes who in 2012:If you can’t vote for Romney, Don’t vote for Obama

his rightwing blog Augean Stables

http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2012/11/05/if-you-cant-vote-for-romney-dont-vote-for-obama-an-open-letter-to-americans-of-all-faiths-and-skepticisms/

[King_David]

13. So we should find a new term to describe these fabricated

News clips we see so often.

Any suggestions ?

[shira]

15. +1. n/t

[azurnoir]

16. LOL that's entirely up to you

or perhaps check with your Democratic party

[King_David]

18. Correct

That is my party.

[azurnoir]

21. about support of Israel among parties from July 15 2014

These views are little changed from April, before the recent outbreak of Mideast violence. However, the share of Republicans who sympathize more with Israel has risen from 68% to 73%; 44% of Democrats express more sympathy for Israel than the Palestinians, which is largely unchanged from April (46%). The share of independents siding more with Israel than the Palestinians has slipped from 51% to 45%.

http://www.people-press.org/2014/07/15/as-mideast-violence-continues-a-wide-partisan-gap-in-israel-palestinian-sympathies/

[FBaggins]

29. If you were given a "poll from now" would you misread it as badly?

at that point 56% of Democrats show more sympathy for Palestinians

Nope. You see a poll that says that 44% of Democrats sympathize more with Israel and just assume that the other 56% sympathize with the Palestinians?

That's poor logic... particularly since you could have read just a couple more lines of the article to find the real number.

Just 17% of Democrats, 17% of independents and 6% of Republicans sympathize more with the Palestinians than Israel. These numbers have changed little since April.

There was no cross-tab in the poll that supported the Palestinians more than the Israelis (or even close)... not one. And none reported that had as much as 1/4th supporting the Palestinians more.

[azurnoir]

31. cover it up anyway you please lol

more Democrats do not support Israel than do albeit a large number support neith side

[FBaggins]

33. Lie about reality anyway you please.

Obviously there is no segment of our society that's falling for it (as the poll clearly shows).

[azurnoir]

34. I suggest you reread

[FBaggins]

36. Re-read after you edit it?

To remove your errant claim that 56% of Democrats support the Palestinians more than the Israelis?

And you want to accuse others of covering up?

[azurnoir]

38. yes I was wrong however the doesn't change that the majority of Democrats do not support Israel

and speaking of edits.......

[FBaggins]

44. Nor does it change the fact that the VAST majority of Democrats do not support the Palestinians.

And I'd venture to guess that an even larger majority do not support Hamas.

[azurnoir]

46. keep trying any port in a storm I guess

funny though the dependence on people just not caring

[FBaggins]

48. Have you read your own posts?

Only one of us appears to desperately need to misread the poll to believe that their party agees with them...

... and that sure isn't me.

Again... the most supportive demographic groups for your position still had barely one in five agreeing with you. And as for "dependence on people just not caring"... that is again your position. Because if you remove the people in the poll who didn't care about the issue (that is... didn't sympathize with either side), a clear majority of Democrats prefer Israel. More than 2:1 over the Palstinians.

[azurnoir]

50. I corrected myself you seem intent on badgering or trying to bury something

not sure which though

[FBaggins]

55. Not really

You corrected/hid your post. You haven't corrected your error... which is to assume that any significant number of people (left right or center) agrees with you.

If it makes you feel better to think that, even though every demographic group strongly disagrees with you... at lest the more conservative groups disagree more... ok. It's probably the best you'll do.

So if it helps you sleep at night... go for it!

[azurnoir]

56. excuse me what? I did not hide my post I corrected my error

and nothing you say changes the fact that more Democrats do not support Israel than do 56% do not support Israel 44% do

as seen here

These views are little changed from April, before the recent outbreak of Mideast violence. However, the share of Republicans who sympathize more with Israel has risen from 68% to 73%; 44% of Democrats express more sympathy for Israel than the Palestinians, which is largely unchanged from April (46%). The share of independents siding more with Israel than the Palestinians has slipped from 51% to 45%.

http://www.people-press.org/2014/07/15/as-mideast-violence-continues-a-wide-partisan-gap-in-israel-palestinian-sympathies/

notice what it says BTW the wording makes my 'mistake' a bit more understandable

44% of Democrats express more sympathy for Israel than the Palestinians, which is largely unchanged from April (46%).

[FBaggins]

57. Again... can you not read beyond that paragraph?

Obviously... because you dont realize how ridiculous you're looking.

It nowhere says that 56% "do not support Israel" - nor does the reported data say that.

[azurnoir]

58. misinterpret anyway you wish and if that is true I made no mistake in the first place

[FBaggins]

59. A simple "no... I didn't read it" would have sufficed

It's clear enough anyway.

44% sympathy with Israel does not mean 56% "do not support"... since:

1 - sympathy and support are not the same thing. There are plenty of people who oppose terrorist Hamas, but have no sympathy for Israel.
2 - there were people in the poll who sympathized with "both" that were not included in the 44%
3 - there were lots of people who sympathized with "neither" side

Oh... and since you were looking for the most recent polling. The latest number for those who think that Hamas' actions are justified?

... wait for it...

11%

[azurnoir]

60. what part of: 44% of Democrats express more sympathy for Israel than the Palestinians

do you not seem to understand? and exactly what are you hoping to accomplish or prove here? sometimes ya just gotta ask


http://www.people-press.org/2014/07/15/as-mideast-violence-continues-a-wide-partisan-gap-in-israel-palestinian-sympathies/

eta do you equate support for Hamas with support for Palestinians? the 11% figure is hardly a surprise

[FBaggins]

61. The part where you actually read it.

If you have trouble with any of the big words... you just let me know.

What part of only 17% of Democrats express more sympathy for the Palestinians than for Israel do you not seem to understand?

[azurnoir]

62. again only 44% of Democrats 'sympathize' with Israel now parse that out anyway you wish

I'll give ya some points for effort and before you you rage about about edits I added do you equate support for Hamas with support for Palestinians ? but once again lets repeat the poll

These views are little changed from April, before the recent outbreak of Mideast violence. However, the share of Republicans who sympathize more with Israel has risen from 68% to 73%; 44% of Democrats express more sympathy for Israel than the Palestinians, which is largely unchanged from April (46%). The share of independents siding more with Israel than the Palestinians has slipped from 51% to 45%.

http://www.people-press.org/2014/07/15/as-mideast-violence-continues-a-wide-partisan-gap-in-israel-palestinian-sympathies/

[FBaggins]

63. False

again only 33% of Democrats 'sympathize' with Israel +

False... and not just because of the 33 vs 44 typo. There were also a few percent who said that they sympathize with both sides equally. You can't say that they don't sympathize with Israel when they just said that they did.

Also... they were lots of people who said that they didn't sympathize with either side. That isn't the same thing as "don't support". It's flat dishonest (no matter how many times you re-post the same misused quotatio) to claim that those who sympathize with both sides... those who sympathize with neither sides... and those that sympathize with the Palestinians can all be lumped together with a summary that they don't support Israel. You simply can't say that anyone who supports Israel would answer that question to say that they sympathize more with Israel than with the Palestinians.

do you equate support for Hamas with support for Palestinians ?

Nope. Support for Hamas would be expected to be much lower than for the Palestinians in general. I, for instance, have lots of sympathy for the bulk of the Palestinian people... but none at all for Hamas.

[azurnoir]

64. I corrected my typo and you do get the parsing prize I'll give ya that

but once again lets see that poll just clear up any confusion

These views are little changed from April, before the recent outbreak of Mideast violence. However, the share of Republicans who sympathize more with Israel has risen from 68% to 73%; 44% of Democrats express more sympathy for Israel than the Palestinians, which is largely unchanged from April (46%). The share of independents siding more with Israel than the Palestinians has slipped from 51% to 45%.

http://www.people-press.org/2014/07/15/as-mideast-violence-continues-a-wide-partisan-gap-in-israel-palestinian-sympathies/

[King_David]

35. Doesn't really breakdown the 14% support

For Palestinians amongst parties.

Not a great poll .

I will remind you Jewish support for Israel and the Democratic Party is unwavering .

And with that , what's that got to do with anything written.

That's called flight of ideas .

[azurnoir]

39. still the majority of Democrats do not support Israel

but the majority of Republicans do

[King_David]

65. Not quite

Very badly designed poll doesn't explain what the 14% means.

Now if you polled the congress , senate and whitehouse democrats it would also be majority support Israel .

[azurnoir]

66. I'm so very glad you brought that up because it seems that something about resolution got past me

the resolution was passed by all 100 Senators who apparently either feel that it should apply to only 5,000,000 Israelis or are quite ignorant of Israels population take your choice

Expressing the sense of the Senate regarding United States support for
the State of Israel as it defends itself against unprovoked rocket
attacks from the Hamas terrorist organization.

Whereas Hamas is a United States-designated terrorist organization whose charter
calls for the destruction of the State of Israel;
Whereas Hamas continues to reject the core principles of the Middle East Quartet
(the United Nations, the United States, the European Union, and
Russia)--recognize Israel's right to exist, renounce violence, and
accept previous Israeli-Palestinian agreements;
Whereas Hamas has killed hundreds of Israelis and dozens of Americans in rocket
attacks and suicide bombings;
Whereas, since Israel's withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, Hamas and other terrorist
groups have fired thousands of rockets at Israel;
Whereas Hamas has entered into a unity governing arrangement with Fatah and the
Palestinian Authority;
Whereas the unity governing agreement implies Fatah's and the Palestinian
Authority's support for Hamas' belligerent actions against Israel,
potentially contributing to a false perception of legitimacy for Hamas'
belligerent actions;
Whereas, since June 2014, Hamas has fired nearly 300 rockets at Israel;
Whereas Hamas' weapons arsenal includes approximately 12,000 rockets that vary
in range;
Whereas innocent Israeli civilians are indiscriminately targeted by Hamas rocket
attacks; and
Whereas 5,000,000 Israelis are currently living under the threat of rocket
attacks from Gaza:

Now, therefore, be it
Resolved, That the Senate--
(1) reaffirms its support for Israel's right to defend its
citizens and ensure the survival of the State of Israel;
(2) condemns the unprovoked rocket fire at Israel;
(3) calls on Hamas to immediately cease all rocket and
other attacks against Israel; and
(4) calls on Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas
to dissolve the unity governing arrangement with Hamas and
condemn the attacks on Israel.

https://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-resolution/498/text

[shira]

67. Huh? 5 million out of Israel's 8 million are under rocket threat…..

They're all running into and out of bomb shelters day and night.

What's confusing about this?

[azurnoir]

69. so you approve of this I see wonder why hmmm

but it's nice to see that you confess that Israel is not under existential danger from Hamas

[shira]

71. Huh? Well okay, knock yourself out. n/t

[King_David]

72. Are we having the same conversation here?

I'm lost , were you replying to my post ?

Oh btw I had Kellogg's cornflakes and coffee with milk for breakfast yesterday .

[azurnoir]

77. here's your comment I showed that you are right about the US government yet you seem to complain

Star Member King_David (7,977 posts)
65. Not quite

Very badly designed poll doesn't explain what the 14% means.

Now if you polled the congress , senate and whitehouse democrats it would also be majority support Israel .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=72997

[TubbersUK]

81. Thanks for the clarification.

"Augean Stables" , how appropriate, a place where endless sh*t is shovelled.

[Gothmog]

5. I am glad that Israel is destroying these tunnels

[Jefferson23]

6. War, brought to you today by: The Gatestone Institute

There Must Not Be a Ceasefire

by Denis MacEoin
July 25, 2014 at 5:00 am

Even in its weakest moments, would Britain have risked a cease-fire with Nazi Germany during World War II -- knowing that Hitler habitually broke his promises?

With their usual mixture of human rights concern and hypocrisy, several countries have stepped into the fresh Israel-Gaza conflict by demanding a cease-fire. Egypt has played an important role in this demarche; Hamas has turned down flatly all the conditions on which Egyptian President al-Sisi insisted. How far the war will go still hangs in the balance. As Israeli ground forces now fight with Hamas in their tunnels and bunkers, over 600 Palestinians (largely made up of men of fighting age) have died[1], as well as over 32 Israelis.

The international pressure from all sides for a ceasefire is widening and intensifying. Of course, what a ceasefire amounts to, as it has before, is to give Hamas a second chance. And a third and a fourth — whatever is needed for them to achieve their clearly stated goals of wiping Israel from the map, and then Jews.

What is odd is that the United States and the EU called for a ceasefire after only seven days -- even before the ground offensive began. They did not do that while America and Britain were fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq. Nor did anyone call for a cessation of UN-sponsored NATO air and ground attacks during the Bosnian war. Today, calls for a ceasefire fall on deaf ears in Syria, Iraq, Somalia, and Nigeria, where governments (good or bad) face the forces of armed Islamist terrorists. So why so much pressure on Israel, dubbed as always the aggressor, whose responses to Hamas terrorism are unjustly considered "disproportionate," and whose serious efforts to contain civilian casualties are always disregarded or sneered at?

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4513/gaza-hamas-ceasefire

Gatestone Institute

The Gatestone Institute, formerly Stonegate Institute[2][3] and Hudson New York,[3][4] is a think tank based in New York City. The organization is chaired by John R. Bolton, former U.S. Permanent Representative to the United Nations, from 2005 to 2006, and Undersecretary of State for Arms Control and International Security, from 2001 to 2005.[5] It was formerly Stonegate Institute[2] and was devolved from the Hudson Institute, New York.[6] It identifies itself as a nonpartisan, not-for-profit international policy council[7] and think tank for international and domestic policy, based in New York City.[8] It was founded in 2012[9] by Nina Rosenwald who serves as its president.[10] Former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations John R. Bolton is its chairman.[11][12][13][14] In The Nation, journalist Max Blumenthal reported it began as a branch of the Washington D.C. Hudson Institute and was known as "Hudson New York City".[15][16] Gatestone publicizes the writings of authors as diverse as Alan Dershowitz, Robert Spencer, Palestinian journalist Khaled Abu Toameh, and Harold Rhode.[15] It is described by some media as “an internationally known American think-tank, specialized on strategy and defense questions.” [17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatestone_Institute

[shira]

9. Hamas has rejected every ceasefire so far, while their Western enablers….

…..have run cover for them and their war crimes in Gaza.

Nothing to be proud of there. Gatestone has nothing on Hamas & their supporters.

[Jefferson23]

12. You have a RW website calling for no cease fire and you think they're ok because they

are nothing like Hamas..yet. Or maybe not yet..already there, more than you realize.

You received 2 recommends for the Gatestone Institute...this is a good day for
you, shira.

[shira]

14. Hamas is calling for no ceasefire and I don't see any of Israel's opponents….

….wringing their hands, upset at Hamas, criticizing them, etc.

Instead, they're enabling & supporting Hamas with their cog. warfare, Pallywood, denying Hamas war crimes, etc.

Great peaceniks.

[Jefferson23]

24. You have a point there somewhere? Enjoy your their support for war. n/t

[shira]

25. Shouldn't you guys be begging Hamas for a ceasefire? You claim….

….to care about civilian Palestinian casualties. If not you guys (begging Hamas) then who?

[Jefferson23]

27. You have their phone number or something? Call them, shira.

The US will not speak to them directly, you know who wanted it that way? Israel.

I don't know anyone who supports Hamas, but what we do see in Gaza are very
desperate people...that is a bad place to be. From reports they blame Israel more
than Hamas.

[shira]

28. No Open Letters from Mondoweiss, FreeGaza, ISM, Elect.Intifada….

….StopTheWar, +972, CodePink, JVP, etc.

[Jefferson23]

32. Post where any of those has an OP calling for no cease fire as your RW website has done, please.

I am not aware they have made any pleas directly as you suggest, either.

[shira]

37. They've all defended Hamas' choice to reject the ceasefire. n/t

[Jefferson23]

41. Can't find one, can you? Oh well..back to your RW OP. Looks like you have

another added recommend. Who knows how many more will agree..best of luck.

[shira]

42. Hmm, I never knew this was about # of recs. n/t

[Jefferson23]

43. I find support for a RW website with recommendations for no cease fire, interesting. n/t

[King_David]

17. I don't read that website but I have seen some

Excusing AntiSemitism in the world just because these antisemites support Gaza
( which I do)

Like this thread where a Jewish Rabbi was beat up in Morroco and we were told in post 1 "end the occupation " so Jews in Morroco or France won't get beat up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113468222

[Jefferson23]

23. You really hate those CENTCOM reports..I completely understand.

You don't read the Gatestone Institute, ok. Don't be so defensive, I did not
mention, nor suggest you did.

Your name never came up in this thread.

[azurnoir]

45. and Israel just rejected Kerry's anything to say about that? n/t

[enid602]

7. interesting

"Even in its weakest moments, would Britain have risked a cease-fire with Nazi Germany during World War II -- knowing that Hitler habitually broke his promises? " Interesting analogy, given that Britain was Gaza and Nazi Germany, Israel. Remember the UK Government begging people to stay in London so the Nazis could not bomb them with impunity.

[shira]

8. Stop drinking the Pallywood Kool-Aid

Gaza has fired > 10,000 rockets into Israel since the early 2000's. Israel is G.Britain during the Blitz & no other democracy since G.Britain (other than Israel) has been shelled like Israel has.

Here, learn something:

#t=85

[azurnoir]

11. see comment #10 about the origins of Pallywood

[PCIntern]

22. Fuckers.

Always on our High Holidays. You should see the security at my synagogue - at least 20 uniformed and plain clothes officers plus several PA State Police some uniformed some plainclothed.

Everyone goes thru security no exceptions no how.

[shira]

26. Same here in Boston, for any event - religious or cultural. Very high security. n/t

[geek tragedy]

51. So, you believe everything John Bolton

tells you? His org is the source of this story.

Or is he a bit too dovish for your liking?

[PCIntern]

74. Nice post...

1. I was relating what I go thru every high holiday and most events at my shul, if that's OK with you. Or maybe it isn't.
2. Whether the story is true or not, and I believe that it may well be, they're still fuckers. OK?

[geek tragedy]

76. I think Hamas's status as 'fuckers' has already been

established.

[PCIntern]

80. I wouldn't be too sure about that, unfortunately...

one of the posters yesterday stated that nowhere on DU is there 'unequivocal' support for Hamas, thus implying that there was moderate to staunch support but not unequivocal.

[geek tragedy]

82. well, when you find someone expressing support

instead of disclaiming its existence with insufficiently definitive language, you let us know.

There have been plenty of people who support/defend bombs being dropped on schools and hospitals, killing children,because it's the IDF doing it so it can't be wrong. No one has defended the Hamas rockets.

[shira]

83. what do u call enablers of Hamas strategy to maximize civilian deaths?

Talking about those who deny, ignore, defend, or minimize what hamas is doing to Palestinian civilians so that when it comes to PR, Israel is raked over the coals & forced to stand down before their mission is accomplished against Hamas...

Like media and ngo's in Gaza who do this constantly?

And those here who know what happens there but still condone it?

-----------------

You realize there are news articles out of Gaza denying human shields? Amnesty and HRW deny it too. Are they not enablers and therefore tacitly supporting what Hamas is doing? Are their fans in the west the same?

[PCIntern]

84. I hate to say this but that is not true...

it has been de facto defended by deflection from fault. It is standard, but POOR debating tactic.

[geek tragedy]

85. Are you referring to Hamas rockets or the IDF bombing

of hospitals and small children?

[PCIntern]

87. you know, you and your followers want to believe that folks like me

want to see children dead...in fact, you are all so taken with this notion that you seem to be accusing those of us who are pro-Israel of being accessories to murder. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What you will not address, not for one instant, is the positioning of the militants near and directly with the innocent civilians. You have not one word for this, but they in fact, are the direct causes of the deaths of these people.

And I was referring, OF COURSE, to the evil, disgusting, vile, despicable, revolting, vomit-inducing rockets which Hamas is sending to KILL Israeli women and children. It is just because they are so LAME that they have not succeeded in any significant fashion Of course, you would call that disproportional losses. I would call it grotesque and pathetic attempts to overthrow a sovereign country. It does not matter one whit whether you think it is or not, you can bet it will be there when this particular round is finished.

[geek tragedy]

88. Oy. Textbook projection.

PCIntern:

It has been de facto defended by deflection from fault. It is standard, but POOR debating tactic.

vs

PCIntern

What you will not address, not for one instant, is the positioning of the militants near and directly with the innocent civilians. You have not one word for this, but they in fact, are the direct causes of the deaths of these people.

In your eagerness to engage in the 'POOR debating tactic' you were earlier decrying, you seem to have forgotten what a "direct cause" means.

The direct cause of death for the Palestinian kids is trauma due to explosives, collapsing buildings, fire, smoke inhalation, the direct cause for which are the IDF bombs, the direct cause for which is the IDF's decision to drop them on that spot at that time.

The presence of Hamas militants is a plausible, or partial, motivation for the IDF dropping bombs on those kids. No one is forcing the IDF to drop bombs on those kids--the IDF is consciously deciding to drop those bombs as part of a larger strategy conceived by Israel's extreme right-wing PM. Hamas's existence cannot be said to be the direct cause of the decision to drop the bombs, let alone the actual act of dropping the bombs, let alone let alone the deaths of the kids.

Hamas militants' presence can be at most deemed an indirect cause given that there are several intervening factors, including the human consciousness of Israeli strategists and the IDF members who execute the attacks.

In terms of direct causation, why are the kids dead? Israel killed them by dropping bombs on them, that's why. That is simple physics. If Israel decided to drop those bombs in the sea, the kids would be alive.

Congrats.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5290827

[PCIntern]

89. no...

the proximal cause was the bombing...the direct cause was the fact that they are beding held hostage by their own people.

Nice try...not even close. You are just fuimbling and bumbling...but that is what you DO. It really is pathetic that you have adopted the RWer stance on this issue, expecting everyone to agree with you 100% but don't give an inch. Won't work with most of us.

Whom do you think you are convincing anyway...?

[geek tragedy]

90. No, exactly wrong. If you're going to use terms of art use them correctly.

"Direct cause" means NO INTERVENING FACTORS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality

In common usage, causality is also the relation between a set of factors (causes) and a phenomenon (the effect). Anything that affects an effect is a factor of that effect. A direct factor is a factor that affects an effect directly, that is, without any intervening factors. (Intervening factors are sometimes called "intermediate factors".)

This is also reflected in the legal doctrine of "direct causation"

What happens between Hamas militants walking around civilians in the Gaza Strip and those kids dying?

The IDF's voluntary decision to launch missiles and drop bombs.

Ergo, the IDF's dropping of the bomb, and deciding to drop the bomb, are intervening factors making anything Hamas has ever done by definition an indirect cause, at most.

Are there any intervening causes between the IDF dropping a bomb on a kid and his death? No.

Perhaps you got confused and meant to write "ultimate" instead of "direct." The difference is not trivial, obviously.

Holding an army accountable for its actions is not the "RWer stance"--another thing you seem to be confused about.

[PCIntern]

91. No and no

In your attempt to obfuscate and avoid the higher-order truth you editorialize and confuse it with fact. The fact is that none if these children would be maimed and dying if the bad guys were not positioned up their behinds. None.

[geek tragedy]

92. Now you're talking about "but for" causation

Which is a much broader term than direct causation.

Hamas rockets are arguably a but for cause in some cases. Though not in the case of those four boys on the beach the IDF killed.

The IDF's actions are both"but for" and direct causes of kids dying.

Because the IDF are the ones, you know, actually killing the kids.

[PCIntern]

93. You are just pretending.

And boring. Ok you have the last word. I hope you feel better.

[MFM008]

78. all this has happened during

Ramadan right?

[PCIntern]

79. you mean Hamas launching rockets? Why, yes.

Good point!

[Warpy]

30. I'm reminded of the Jewish teenagers using the sewers under

the Warsaw Ghetto to bring in as much food and medicine as they could carry, hoping to help people inside survive another day after the Nazis had cut them off on the surface.

It's funny how this stuff keeps happening as history replays loop after loop.

An attack against Israel by a vastly outnumbered and outgunned Hamas would have been just as suicidal as an attack through the sewers under Warsaw and for the same reason. That's why it didn't happen.

Clearly those tunnels were being used for something besides bringing in unguided missiles, they were also bringing in substances Israel had banned, like seasoning for their food, considered "unessential."

The stick has not worked, again and again. Maybe it's time to try the carrot. With coriander, please.

[shira]

40. Huh? These tunnels from Gaza into Israel are for terror purposes….

Not to smuggle in goods. If undetected, and they were up until last week, Hamas could've carried out a MASS terror attack that could've killed 1000's.

[Warpy]

47. SURE they are. Nobody ever thinks to bring in food and toiletries

to sell at highly inflated prices in Gaza.

Uh, huh, sure, and the pink and purple polka dotted hippo is due to fly over any minute.

[FBaggins]

49. Yeah! And those explosives and suicide vests were just to protect their market share!

You tell 'em Warpy!

[Warpy]

52. Light switch mentalities are annoying.

and complex systems are always reduced to the part that best fits propaganda needs of the moment by such mentalities.

Have fun with your straw man. You built him, now take him out and play with him.

[FBaggins]

54. No need for a strawman

I found a real person trying to claim that the Hamas tunnels were there so that they could import seasonings so their food wasn't too bland.

I couldn't invent a sock puppet any better than that!

[PCIntern]

75. Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, and Thyme...They are S&G fans!

yeah, I saw that with one of the Hamas leaders: he was in the Spice trade, following Marco Polo...

In fact that's all Hamas wants to do is play Marco Polo...

Marco....Polo....Marco....Polo....Marco...etc.

and those bad Israelis won't let them!

[azurnoir]

68. Israel has been very fully aware of those tunnels for years

but has only now ponied them up

[shira]

70. I don't believe they realized the magnitude of the problem.

Massive intelligence failure.

Otherwise they wouldn't have agreed to the earlier ceasefires. That points to gross incompetence.

[azurnoir]

73. ummm hmmm or something

[whosinpower1]

86. I was just reading an interesting report

From a previous post that Shira had initially started about the tunnels.

From the report, the necessity of tunnels was just as much economic, as it was military. It actually created a source of income for Hamas, because they charged duty and taxes through the tunnel network - at least for awhile.

I am sure the Israeli's were well aware of these tunnels. They use this again, for propaganda purposes without telling the full story.




http://www.palestine-studies.org/journals.aspx?id=11424&jid=1&href=fulltext

this is the report.

[FBaggins]

53. "An attack against Israel by ... Hamas would have been just as suicidal..."

You just started reading about Hamas in the last week, didn't you?

You're honestly going to try to spin that they would never try such a thing because it would be suicidal?