Meshaal: We are ready to coexist with Jews, but not 'occupiers'

[Jefferson23]

GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Israel resumed its bombardment of the Gaza Strip for the 20th day on Sunday afternoon, as Hamas leader Meshaal stressed that the group was ready to "coexist with the Jews" but would not tolerate "occupiers."

The Israeli assault on Gaza continued after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu refused to renew a ceasefire agreed to earlier in the day after he claimed Palestinian militants had violated earlier truces.

At least two Palestinians were killed and dozens injured in Israeli airstrikes and shelling from land and sea on Sunday evening, as the total Palestinian toll in the deadly assault hit 1,032 with more than 6,200 injured. Israeli forces have also killed 11 Palestinians in solidarity protests across the West Bank.

Of the total, 13 Palestinians were killed Sunday morning by Israeli forces during the ceasefire, while 117 bodies were recovered on Saturday as medics had access to large areas that had been off-limits during an agreed-upon humanitarian ceasefire that lasted 16 hours.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=716621

[sabbat hunter]

1. well according to Hamas

all of Israel is occupied territory....

[Jefferson23]

2. If everyone will not let all parties move forward, they won't.

Israel:

"the government of Israel flatly denies the existence of a Palestinian state west of the Jordan river"

[sabbat hunter]

3. Likud

They are just as wrong to have that in their platform as Hamas is to have the destruction of Israel in theirs.

But my point was that Hamas is not willing to work with Israel at all. Israel at least seems to be willing to work with the Palestinians and their representatives in a more peaceful fashion.


Israel has four choices really
1) annex the WB and Gaza and give everyone there Israeli citizenship.
2) ethnically cleanse Gaza and WB of any Arabs
3) Status quo
4) Withdraw (unilaterally if need be) from the WB (except from Jerusalem) and let the PA rule over it.


2 is an obvious disgusting non starter
3 would not benefit Israel in the long run

So there is 1 and 4 left over. To me a one state solution is a non starter as well, as it will lead to bigger headaches, civil war, etc

So then we are left with choice 4.
That is the path that Israel must take. But I think the only way that will happen is if there is a long period(at least a year) of no rockets being launched in to Israel from Gaza (or potentially the WB). The public will slowly turn away from likud (its coalition is already splintering when liberman withdrew from the unity party agreement). Then they will get behind a party that will benefit them socially, economically and can present a peace with the Palestinians.

I do have the smallest bit of hope that even Bibi can reach peace with the Palestinians. After all, even PM Begin was able to negotiate with Egypt and reach a peace, and he was just as far to the right as Bibi on national security matters.

[Jefferson23]

4. Yes, and I hope we can see them all move past it....the time is now. n/t

[Jefferson23]

5. I would agree that Bibi knows the only way this will end is with a political solution.

I think there is much that can be negotiated, and as we all recognize there is no trust...zero.
They'll need a trusted group..possibly?
I won't argue with you who is more trustworthy etc, it does not matter any longer.
They can reach agreements over what is the greatest security threats to Israel, the tunnels.
Seems to me that you get big in return for giving big and if I were Israel I would want to
go out of my way to make sure Hamas sees a tangible return for information on those
tunnels.

[Scootaloo]

8. Here're some problems

Hamas and Likud actually aren't on an equal level. Hamas simply cannot bring the amount of force to bear to back up its rhetoric - Likud does have that force, and applies it liberally. The rhetoric is comparable, but doesn't exist in a vacuum. I've been threatened with death from an angry four year old armed with a plastic spoon, and I've been threatened with death from a man who had a gun in my face. i don't consider these to be equal situations, even though both use the phrase "I'mma kill you!"

Israel also has a fifth option - follow international law. I know it's a wild thought, one that Israel has been avoiding since 1949, and one that its admirers find abhorrent.

[sabbat hunter]

11. what if the 4yr old

was firing rockets in to your backyard? Then what?

Should Israel only fire back indiscriminately with rockets against hamas, not caring one iota?

Of COURSE Israel is going to bring to bear anything, everything it can against a terror organization, who's goals are to destroy Israel and take out as many civilians as possible along the way. Israel needs to be careful about civilian casualties on the Palestinian side, but at least they TRY to be careful about it. Hamas isn't.

[Scootaloo]

13. That's just it. The threat is meaningless

Right now, when you and others wank off about "the rockets, the rockets, oh my god the rockets!" what you're saying is that eleven hundred people have been killed as a means of salving pride. You know why? Because those rockets aren't doing a fucking thing. They're getting shot down, except for the ones that Israel judges are not a threat - these hit empty dirt. when you are able to go "Okay that one's not a problem, let's let it through," you can't fucking tell me you're under an existential threat. Awww, how cute, he's going to kill me with a plastic spoon!

And look at your argument. "If there are terrorists, then flatten the place with every bit of firepower you have! Because terrorists!" That's some Dick Cheney shit there.

Gaza is occupied by Israel- Israel can spin all the fiction it wants about it, but it is still occupied, and part of a territory that is also occupied. Occupation means that the war is over, and the occupier won. That means that military action is no longer an appropriate response to criminal acts. Which is what Hamas firing rockets is. it's a criminal act by criminals.

The guy who stuck a gun in my face and threatened my existence lived in Burbank. Know how the police responded? They arrested his ass after I called them. They did not call in the national Guard to level Burbank, Glendale, and Universal City. And make no mistake, I'm certain there were plenty of other armed criminals in that area, so by the logic you have expressed to such a situation - "nuke it from orbit; it's the only way to be sure!" - the LAPD should have leveled the place.

Israel has an obligation to Palestinians, as the occupying power, to preserve their country, to preserve their lives, and to preserve their security. it has failed on all three counts - no, not just failed, it has expressly violated all three obligations. Instead of mandated police action, Israel chooses to hammer Gaza with missiles, with mortars, with flechette shells, and a steady patter of gunfire. And it pretends it holds no responsibility for all the people it has killed. That's the really disgusting part. But then that's been a core of Israeli culture since at least Golda Meir's tenure, when she was claiming Arabs "forced" Israel to kill their children.

You can't look at Shujai'ya - a sub-city the size of East Los Angeles, now heaps of rubble and rebar - and tell me that Israel is "trying to be careful." You can't look at all the hospitals and schools being hammered by "the most conscientious military in the world" and keep a straigth face. You can't read invective from members of Knesset calling for the "cleansing" of Gaza as a "solution" to the problem, and tell me "golly, anyone would!"

[sabbat hunter]

15. so if the 4yr old

was launching rockets in to your backyard day after day, you would do nothing?

[Scootaloo]

16. Did you read what I wrote? Any of it?

[sabbat hunter]

23. yes I did

I read all of it

At the beginning you said

Right now, when you and others wank off about "the rockets, the rockets, oh my god the rockets!" what you're saying is that eleven hundred people have been killed as a means of salving pride. You know why? Because those rockets aren't doing a fucking thing. They're getting shot down, except for the ones that Israel judges are not a threat - these hit empty dirt. when you are able to go "Okay that one's not a problem, let's let it through," you can't fucking tell me you're under an existential threat. Awww, how cute, he's going to kill me with a plastic spoon!

Which says to me "Aww look at the cute hamas, firing those rockets that aren't usually hitting anything or hurting many people. Israel isn't under any threat from them. They don't need to do anything about it"

What sort of "police acts' do you take against a terrorist organization?

[Scootaloo]

26. "Which says to me," bullshit, what I said is what I said, not what you WISH I said

This seems to be a constant struggle for Israel supporters, this inability to respond to what someone actually says. My posts are not interpretive dance or modern art, you can't just decide what they mean to you, it's not up to your personal interpretation.

Go back.

Read what I wrote.

Respond to what I wrote, not what you would have preferred I said.

Don't waste my time. I'm not going to debase myself by arguing against your make-believe bullshit.

[sabbat hunter]

30. I even quoted

what you said in my last post. How is that not reading and using what you said ?!?


And you haven't answered, what "police acts' do you think should be taken against a terror organization like Hamas that launches so called "harmless" rockets?

[stranger81]

19. Just so we're clear, there are a WIDE variety of options between expelling the entire Palestinian

population to Sinai and "doing nothing."

As Scoot pointed out to you, international law dictates that Israel must respond with police action vis-a-vis the responsible culprits, not military action against a defenseless and captive civilian population.

[sabbat hunter]

24. Israel

is attempting to take out Hamas and its infrastructure (the weapons, the tunnels, etc). But since Hamas is doing all of their actions from urban centers, it makes things difficult if not impossible to avoid any civilian casualties. Could Israel be more careful than they already are? Probably. But they are doing things like warning calls, messages, etc. But remember it is Hamas who plants their weapons among the civilians. It is not Israel that is planting the weapons there. You have to go after the enemy and their structure where they are hiding.

[bravenak]

27. And you have to not kill a thousand civilians to do it.nt

[whosinpower1]

17. well said, nt.

[stranger81]

18. +1000

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

28. You know, I asked about rocket deaths in another thread.

The person there told me that between 2001 and 2014, rockets were linked to 28 deaths in Israel. (And Iron Dome only went into operation in early 2011.)

There are 82 gun related deaths a DAY in the United States. So for the same period that rockets from Palestine killed 28 people in Israel, guns killed close to 400000 people in the United States. Now Israel only has a bit under 8 million people, compared to the 315 million or so in the US. Still, if Israel were losing people to rockets at the same rate that the US loses them to guns, that would be over 10000 deaths during that period, not just under 30.

And 'careful Israel' has killed over a thousand Palestinians in the last couple of weeks, as opposed to 'careless Hamas' killing 28 with rockets in 13 years.

Who's actually being 'indiscriminate' again?

[Israeli]

9. could start by talking .....

" I do have the smallest bit of hope that even Bibi can reach peace with the Palestinians "

[sabbat hunter]

25. well like I said

it is the smallest bit of hope.

[Jefferson23]

6. MK Danon: 'We need a ceasefire from Obama's attacks'

MK Danny Danon responded to US President Barack Obama's demand for an unconditional ceasefire saying, "We need a ceasefire from the attacks coming from Obama and the government in Washington. Just as the US fought with determination against the Taliban, we must continue hitting Hamas and destroying the infrastructure of terror."


He also added: "We need to withstand the pressure on us and worry about the interests of the State of Israel."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4550897,00.html

[Ken Burch]

7. It's something.

It's better than Netanyahu's insistence that the IDF must stay in the West Bank forever.

[azurnoir]

10. The full interview will be televised tonight on PBS

NEW YORK and ARLINGTON, VA; July 27, 2014—In a U.S. broadcast exclusive, Charlie Rose’s interview with Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal will be broadcast on Monday, July 28, at 11:00 PM ET/PT (check local listings) in a special presentation of CHARLIE ROSE on PBS.

http://www.pbs.org/about/news/archive/2014/exclusive-interview-hamas/

[Jefferson23]

12. Thanks.

[Jefferson23]

14. Netanyahu's Hamas dilemma: Deterrence or decisive victory?

After Kerry truce initiative fiasco, the Israeli PM and his counterparts in Cairo and Ramallah likely have little faith in U.S. efforts to achieve a truce.

By Amos Harel | Jul. 28, 2014 | 2:10 PM

Several unsuccessful attempts were made Sunday to effect a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Despite the continued fighting, however, there has been a significant reduction in the volume of rocket fire on Israel and, as a consequence, in Israel Air Force activity.

Toward evening Sunday, Israel announced a temporary return to the “quiet for quiet” formula, something that wasn’t successful earlier this month with the outbreak of the hostilities.

The publication in Haaretz of the text of the Kerry cease-fire initiative makes it clear why the proposal was unacceptable to Israel: It did not even allow the Israel Defense Forces to continue blowing up tunnels in the narrow strip it has established west of the security fence. Without such agreement, it is impossible to complete what both the army and the security cabinet have described as the prime mission of the ground operation: dealing with the tunnels that have been dug into Israeli territory. Continuation of the status quo would enable the IDF to complete that mission.

Also on Sunday, the defense minister and chief of staff revised their initial estimate and said that they expected the tunnel mission to be completed within a number of days. The IDF is already describing the destruction of the tunnels as a “massive achievement” and as justification for the entire ground operation.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.607597

[oberliner]

20. He said from Qatar

Where he lives now since he had to move from Damascus due to the ongoing war over there.

[Jefferson23]

21. That he said it, not where he said it from is important. n/t

[Jefferson23]

22. WATCH: Destruction of Israel is not Hamas' end goal, says 'Son of Hamas'

Mosab Hassan Yousef tells CNN what it was like to grow up with Hamas' leadership; Hamas' goal is to build an Islamic state on the rubble of all other civilizations.


By Haaretz | Jul. 27, 2014 | 5:30 PM

Mosab Hassan Yousef, who famously wrote "Son of Hamas" and later wrote and starred in the film of the same title, is the son of Hamas founder and leader Sheikh Hassan Yousef. Yousef betrayed his father and Hamas by spying on their activities for Israeli intelligence during the second intifada, eventually seeking asylum in the U.S. and converting to Christianity - the topics of his book and film.

Interviewed on CNN's Tonight by Don Lemon, Yousef recounted what he learned growing up in and around the ranks of Hamas' leadership. "In the mosques Hamas' taught us that without shedding innocent blood for the sake of the ideology we will not be able to build the Islamic state," Yousef told Lemon.

Yousef told CNN that Hamas's final goal is not just the destruction of the state of Israel, but "Hamas' final destination is building the Islamic caliphate, building an Islamic state on the rubble of all other civilizations." When asked whether or not Israel and Hamas can live side by side in coexistence, Yousef responded, "Hamas is not seeking coexistence and compromise," but the full destruction of the state of Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/video/1.607434

[840high]

29. .....

[Jefferson23]

31. FYI: Why has Mosab Hassan Yousef (the 'Green Prince') turned against his own people?

If Mosab Hassan Yousef has adopted an evangelical worldview, his staunch pro-Israel attitude should not be conflated with what is best for Israel from the Israeli perspective.

In mid-June, Israel's most trusted former collaborator, Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of Hamas co-founder Hassan Yousef, arrived at Ben-Gurion airport. Invited by Druze lawmaker Ayoob Kara (Likud ), Yousef, who now lives in the United States, has been speaking to various groups and committees.

He receives praise wherever he goes - thanked by Israel for preventing terror attacks during his decade of work as a double agent for the Shin Bet and lauded by Jews and Christians alike. Indeed, Yousef's resume seems almost too good to be true: an ex-Hamas member who hates "the God of the Quran" and adores Israel.

Although his love for Israel has grown since he moved to the United States in 2007, his ability to think critically about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict has diminished. While writing "Son of Hamas," his 2010 memoir, Yousef was acutely sensitive to the needs of the Palestinian people. For example, in a 2008 interview with Haaretz, Yousef blamed the Palestinian leadership for being "deceitful." Yet he also depicted his Islamist father as a moderate pragmatist who was willing to talk to Israel.

In a 2010 interview with Israel TV Channel 2, Yousef said he opposed Israel's killing of children in Gaza, and the assassination of Palestinian political and military figures. Critically, he maintained that although he had collaborated with Israel, he was "not pro-Israeli."

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/weekend-opinions/why-has-mosab-hassan-yousef-the-green-prince-turned-against-his-own-people-1.449205

[840high]

32. Thanks.

[Jefferson23]

33. You're welcome..he is an odd guy..so I thought I would add a little perspective since

his twists and turns can give leave one thinking his story is straight forward.

[King_David]

34. Doesn't sound like he turned against his own people,

Against Hamas--yes.

[Jefferson23]

35. It is a bit complicated is what I think the back story unfolds. n/t

[King_David]

37. He's the Palestinian equivalent of all these Jewish dudes stories that people love to post in this

Group .

You know the dudes that have "resigned from the Jewish people. " that have "given back their Israeli passports " that have. "Walked out of synagogues. "

He's like the same story different peoples .

[Jefferson23]

38. I don't think so, but I don't know that much about him. He seemed to me to be a young

man who was all over the place, spying for Israel..that is not a small thing and now his
life in California.

[Jefferson23]

36. 45,000 rally for Gaza at Jerusalem Eid prayers

Agence France Presse

OCCUPIED JERUSALEM: Tens of thousands of Palestinians rallied in support of war-torn Gaza Monday as they gathered to pray at Jerusalem's Al-Aqsa Mosque at the start of the Muslim holiday of Eid al-Fitr.

Police put the number of worshippers at 45,000 people, with an AFP correspondent saying many were dressed in black t-shirts emblazoned with slogans reading "Gaza, supporting you is our Eid" and "We are all Gaza."

Read more: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2014/Jul-28/265376-45000-rally-for-gaza-at-jerusalem-eid-prayers.ashx#ixzz38odkRA1L
(The Daily Star :: Lebanon News :: http://www.dailystar.com.lb)