Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumI知 a Pro-Israel Muslim: So Why did UJS Ban Me?
This is a guest post by Kasim Hafeez
Sadly, I was not surprised to see the rearguard action by the Union of Jewish Students (UJS) to encourage Jewish Societies to write to the Jewish Chronicle regarding the courageous human rights attorney Brooke Goldstein, who was recently banned by some Jewish students from speaking at Leeds campus. This is the same UJS that pressured J-Socs to ban me in February.
In a previous life I was anti-Semitic and an angry anti-Israeli activist. Fortunately for me, I learnt the facts and now campaign proudly for Israel.
more...
http://hurryupharry.org/2012/04/08/i’m-a-pro-israel-muslim-so-why-did-ujs-ban-me/
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shira
(30,109 posts)By his own admission Kasim Hafeez was three months away from going to a Jihadist training camp. He easily could have ended up as a suicide bomber.
If this doesn’t get your attention, nothing will. But the story of Kasim Hafeez, and his journey from hating Israel and the Jewish people, to becoming a self described “Zionist,” is one of the most remarkable transformations I have ever heard of.
On Feb. 6, I had the opportunity to attend a speech by Hafeez titled: “Changing the narrative of Israel in the Muslim community,”
Hafeez was born in the U.K., where, as he tells it, he was raised in an anti-Semitic and anti-Israel environment and was radicalized while attending university. He grew up going to anti-Israel and anti U.S. protests. He was repeatedly told “everything was a conspiracy by the West.”
He began by telling the audience that the situation in the U.K. today is terrible; anti-Semitic attacks, especially at university campuses create fear among Jewish citizens. He became “radicalized” at the university, attending many anti-Israel events and movies — even seeing peers intimidating Jewish students.
He discussed the anti-Israel movement, a movement that often defines itself as “anti-Zionist.” He said that he could “not tolerate the term anti-Zionism,” because it’s “just anti-Semitism repackaged.” He said that among his group, despite their hatred for Israel and the Jewish people, “Nobody would say they were an anti-Semite, we all said we were anti-Zionist instead.”
He took part in events where he and his friends chanted “death to Israel”, and openly called for “the slaughter of Jews.”
And in a sad exemplification of the maxim that “Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing,” nobody at the university campus did anything in response to these horrible words.
more...
http://www.cija.ca/articles-of-interest/choosing-peace-over-hate/
BanTheGOP
(1,068 posts)Israel needs to be internationally decertified as a country, with progressive Arabs forming the bullwark of a new democratic or other form of non-republican party like entity. It must let the people decide where everyone should live, and imprison all Israeli hardliners for their terrorist activities against Palestine and the neighboring Arab states. I would suggest naming the country Palestine, with a consortium of progressive Arab interests running things, and a demilitarization of the region. ONLY when that happen will there be peace in the mideast, though it must also work in conjunction with a US ban on the republican party to ensure no military meddling on our part.
Israel is 100% at fault, and must be taken to account and decertified. Pure and simple.
shira
(30,109 posts)....then what?
You think that's a good idea for the millions of Jews who would have to live under such conditions?
If you believe such a Palestine will be progressive, how will that happen? Most Palestinians are against a secular democratic one state solution. Most are for sharia law as the foundation for their state.
You think with Hamas or the PLO in charge, there would not be a very bloody civil war?
BanTheGOP
(1,068 posts)Keep in mind that if the area now known as Israel is, instead, governed with a progressive structure that eliminates the war-mongering, capitalist tendencies of the current government, then there wouldn't be the underlying tension that would create the atmosphere for civil war. Right now, that situation is far more likely, due to the republicanist tendencies of the current Israeli government.
Note: I did not say Jewish individuals would have to leave. They would simply be part of the citizenry that the new government would promote. If Sharia law becomes the desire for the citizens of what is now Israel, then we can deal with that as it comes. But right now, the powderkeg of global destruction, sponsored by the republicanist interests in the US Capitalist system, is far more likely to erupt in your bloody civil war.
THIS is how our arguments must be presented. When the GOP bleats that we are anti-Semites, we tear down that argument by showing our methods are pro-democracy for everyone. One only has to realize that without the American republican Party, Israel would never have advanced to their current militaristic situation, threatening every citizen in the region with destruction.
shira
(30,109 posts)...manner? I don't. I've seen nothing from them suggesting they'd wish to govern that way. Newsflash: Both Hamas and the PLO hate Jews. They really, really do. And they want to kill them. I can show you dozens of PMW videos in Arabic that prove this.
If Sharia law becomes the desire for the citizens of what is now Israel, then we can deal with that as it comes.
That's it? How do you deal with it when it comes? Sounds like a poor plan. You can't advocate for something w/o having a response for a scenario like that. Okay, you can. But it'll be hard convincing rational people it will work.
You realize a very small minority of Palestinians are for this 1-state, secular democracy? And that a smaller percentage of Israelis are for it? How do you pull this off when less than 10% want it?
Last, it's not just Republicans who support Israel. Democrats do too. Support for Israel from Americans is at a record high right now. Tell me this, are you advocating for the "decertification" of any other nation on the planet, or just the Jewish state?
BanTheGOP
(1,068 posts)I question the US support for Israel being at an all time high, but I think part of that problem is semantical. The pragmatics of the situation indicate that, as it stands now, Israel is a demonstrably volatile anomaly that only exists in its current state because of massive republican support, particularly among military lines, as well as Reaganesque-conservative manipulation through the Mossad that, strikingly, resembles the very regime that precipitated the formation of the Israeli state in the first place: Nazi Germany.
One of the fundamental problems that we on the left face is that we are under constant attack by the conservative repressionists for virtually everything we do. To that end, we look at what the problems in the Middle East emanate from, and without blinking an eye, I've tied it in to the existence and manipulation of the American republican party. Without the GOP, Israel would certainly not be handed billions of yours and my dollars every year for maintaining a nuclear, fascist military regime, carrying out attack after attack against poor, innocent civilians, much of which we document here in DU. So to that end, we know HOW the situation is exacerbated.
Therefore, we must surgically be careful, but we MUST destroy any capabilities of Israeli nazis from terrorizing the mideastern region and rectify its political, emotional, and spirtual growth by eliminating the American GOP influence from its life source. Once that occurs, we can effect progressive, humane change.
THIS is how we deal with the situation. Democrats will not only support the region formerly known as Israel, but respect of all religious values will be paramount in a progressive government society.
Behind the Aegis
(53,912 posts)Israeli Nazis? And they would be...? I saw your other post where you advocate for a group such as the Muslim Brotherhood to take over. You are aware they are theocrats and their motto is: "'Allah is our objective; the Prophet is our leader; the Quran is our law; Jihad is our way; dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope." How would such a group bring democracy to the region? Are you really equating modern Israel with Nazi Germany?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I know it was a violation of the previous rules, but, alas, no more:
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Left-leaning Israeli media compare the RW Israeli govt to Nazi Germany all the time.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I strongly disagree with the poster, but he is stating an opinion. It's vile and misinformed, but it's still just an opinion.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Anyone can compare anything to Nazi Germany. It is a fascinating, thought-provoking post, even if it is a bit shocking. Having one's sensibilities shocked, or proving thought, is not per se a bad thing, even if it makes you uncomfortable.
jimmie
(318 posts)Since I "will be stating an opinion" and "anyone can compare anything to nazi Germany " when saying "Israeli Nazis" , then it's equally fair to say "Palestinian Nazis"...."even if it makes you feel uncomfortable"
"Having ones sensibilities shocked is not Per se a bad thing"
Got it.
LeftishBrit
(41,202 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)And a jury of DUers says "leave it alone" (at least with comparing Israel to Nazis - wonder if the same would happen with a Palestinian - Nazi comparison alert, perhaps it already has).
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)In the case where I alerted, the jury voted 3-3 to leave it alone and I thought this comment was typical: 'Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: What would DU be without ridiculous and unwarranted Hitler comparisons? At least the Palestinians actually don't like Jews, so it's more apt than most Hitler references you see on this site, which isn't saying much. It's still pretty stupid to compare the Palestinians to the Nazis, but I'm not going to vote to hide when this kind of shit is tossed around GD all day long and nobody cares. '
This is one of the failings of DU3, imo. Posts like these and bigoted posts are more often than not left alone by juries....
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Definite failing of DU3. Personally, not crazy about the jury system at all. Juries need to have consistent guidelines to be able to execute their duties effectively in my opinion. Although, probably I shouldn't take it so seriously.
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)DU3 is far less consistent than how things were at DU2, and when I see jury results like the one on a post in this thread, it just confirms my belief that relying on juries just doesn't work. I'd be happy if the old mod system with a few alterations was reintroduced here, though I kind of suspect from what I've seen of the former mods, some of them are enjoying their new freedom too much and wouldn't want to go back to that sort of system again...
Heh, we should title this sub-thread 'The I/P H&M section'!
shira
(30,109 posts)jimmie
(318 posts)The "jury" has spoken.
No action taken.
So calling Israelis Nazis is now considered acceptible discourse.
"Having ones sensibilities shocked is not per se a bad thing".
King_David
(14,851 posts)Unbelievable.
King_David
(14,851 posts)nt
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)I have seen some bizarre stuff on this site, but this one really deserves a class all its own.
BanTheGOP
(1,068 posts)Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)the 30% population of non-Jewish Israelis "in charge" by "decree". 
One of the dumbest suggestions I have ever read about this conflict and I have seen my fair share of dumb suggestions.
BanTheGOP
(1,068 posts)I didn't say that Israeli's couldn't be part of the government. I said that US republican party-backed Israeli military/industrial complex would be taken out of the picture, including the fascist conservative elements of the Mossad. Jewish individuals (not "Jews;" that is an ethnic slur) would have the opportunity to become part of the government; it is a TRUE democracy after all. Once the government has been solidified as a, such like the Muslim Brotherhood, then everything can revert back to progressive normalcy.
Basically, nuclear military capabilities would be eliminated to match that of the rest of the region. and the land distributed in equitable ways that ensure prosperity for everyone, not just the republicanist jewish people. But they would be part of the society, not apart from it, even if they deserve it. Only those conservatives who have criminally been abusive in their conservative governance would be denied citizenship, and either imprisoned or banished from the region.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)I've been a Jew all my life -- I never considered it one.
Maybe in your circle of friends it's considered a slur?
BanTheGOP
(1,068 posts)For instance, we all know the n-word is rehensible when a non-African American says the word in virtually any context other than a quote (such as on CNN recently), and even then the non-African American speaker has to be highly careful in qualifying the usage. For African Americans, it is not only legitimate but understandable, and we all know that.
For decades, republicanists have use the word "Jew" in disparaging context, usually to separate themselves from their original racist southern Evangelical heritage. The worst cases are using it in verb form. With continuous disparaging in this fashion, the word "Jew," when used by non-Jewish individuals, creates an uncomfortable chasm, much like the Confederate flag or the song Dixie does with African Americans. As a white person, I cannot begin to fathom their discomfort, and therefore we must be cognizant of other individual's feelings.
So with all due respect, holden, I submit that when non-Jewish individuals use the word "Jew," even in non-confrontational conversation, the remnants of such bias remain in the hearts of all individuals, and must be curtailed and, in the case of republicanists, condemned harshly.
Now, keep in mind I separate "Israeli" from "Jewish individual" in the context of government action and control. The Israeli government is way out of control, and needs to be decertified and rendered over to a true democratic process involving all citizens in the region. The government, acting in concert with the American GOP, DOES in fact represent Nazi philosophy and actions. THAT is the difference. This is why we have to be extremely careful here in communicating our hatred of the Israeli miltaristic regime, while at the same time championing the individual rights of all citizens, no matter their religious persuasion.
shira
(30,109 posts)...chime in pretending that they do.
Israel is far and away a more liberal nation than the USA. It's a fact, not opinion.
Gay rights, death penalty, healthcare, Israel started out socialist and still is (moreso than the USA), much more self critical media, very liberal court system, far better on environmental issues, leaders in stem cell research, better on immigration (for example from Ethiopia, Sudan), state subsidized public college tuition, better labor unions. Israel had its first Arab President back in 2007. Israel had a female PM back in the 70's. The Knesset currently has Palestinian factions within it opposed to Israel's existance (the more secular Balad and the Islamist Raam Taal). Lastly, in combat Israel's civilian to militant kill ratio is significantly better than the USA and Israel isn't fighting wars thousands of miles away against nations posing no threat to its citizens.
The GOP would rather curl up and die than see America become more liberal like Israel.
Remember also, the Democratic Party strongly backs Israel. It's not just the GOP. As you can see in the paragraph above, Liberal Dems back Israel b/c of Israel's liberal nature.
BanTheGOP
(1,068 posts)Brilliant.
shira
(30,109 posts)....bases, troops, and air and sea power in that part of the world.
Israel's a bargain in comparison. In fact the USA pays almost 3 times as much to Egypt and Pakistan combined, 2 nations that are hopelessly rightwing and fascist.
Also, Israel is no threat to nuke others, as Israel's neighbors know quite well. Iran OTOH is a different story and you'll notice that other ME nations are scared shitless, to the point of wanting to start their own nuclear programs in order to counter Iran. It's Iran that scares them shitless, not Israel.
BanTheGOP
(1,068 posts)We should be migrating the military toward the UN. Our unilateral, or more specifically, the republicanist-backed edicts that force our unilateral use of military force in areas of the world we have no business in the first place is what is causing the escalation of violence in the region. Using Israel as a proxy, regardless of how much of a "bargain" it is, is like contracting out murders to hitmen rather than doing the jobs ourselves. In all cases, it's violent, criminal, and ultimately destructive toward humanity as a whole.
shira
(30,109 posts)...some of the most batshit insane rightwing fascist human rights abusers on the planet.
FFS, the UN just recently and officially praised the Gaddafi government. Lebanon (really Hezbollah) was president of the UN security council. This is the same UN that applauded Sri Lanka's actions a few years back and is practically silent WRT the Darfur massacres that have killed millions (in comparison they're at least 10x more vocal WRT Israel). Iran is in charge of a commission on women.
You want the US military under the command of fascist right-wingers who make our GOP look liberal in comparison?
Are you kidding?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)The US doesn't give Israel nuclear weapons. We give the US made conventional weapons.
And it's 3 billion a year, not 1.5.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)So the moratorium on direct, explicit comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany is officially lifted here now?
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Juries keep letting it stand.
shira
(30,109 posts)Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)gutter sniping level.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)to the best of my knowledge it has not been alerted on, it's been there for at least 5 or 6 days
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11347115#post80
shira
(30,109 posts)...when Israelis are compared to Nazis? Or when Israel's actions are compared to Nazis?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)here's what you don't get speaking for myself I;;m more likely to alert something like that coming from what I'm sure you'd call my team, the bigoted crap that what you call "we" posts I am more than happy to allow to stand, because if your side doesn't find it offensive then well 
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Mon Apr 9, 2012, 07:36 PM - Edit history (1)
As to whether you make Nazi comparisons, here's how I see it.
Each time you imply that Israelis are evil, that IAF pilots don't shoot for PR reasons only, that the IDF targets children, that they target Gazan civilians, that Israel can't wait to expel all Palestinians, when you defend Grass' claim that Israel is about to annihilate the Iranian people, and when you keep repeating that the Badawi tweet was legitimate when it was not, and when you almost always suspect Israel operates with the nastiest intentions.......what am I supposed to think?
I see constant attempts to demonize and dehumanize a people with half lies and deliberate hyperbole.
Not all that different from the folks who accuse Israel of genocide, apartheid (you do this too), keeping Gaza in a warsaw ghetto, concentration camp, etc...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I imply it by being against the occupation and by pointing out the fallacies of some stuff posted here, got it
almost sounds like a revamp of criticism of Israel is antisemitism
and as to my comments on Günter Glass show me post the exact comment where I defended his poem
shira
(30,109 posts)...as equating Israelis or their actions with the Nazis.
It's clear you attribute the worst motives - almost always - to Israel/Israelis. Counter evidence be damned, they're always the villains.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)your claims are patiently false, what you are doing here is equating criticism of Israeli actions towards Palestinians as claiming Nazism of some sort, and by extension antisemitism perhaps you see it that but I do not
shira
(30,109 posts)1. Khulood Badawi: You believe what she did is legitimate criticism, but the girl died in an accident over 5 years ago. I showed you the Reuters apology that proves it. Why did you try to maintain that Israel is at least indirectly responsible when you were proven wrong? What's the point if you're not trying to demonize/dehumanize, facts be damned? Why can't you just admit your sources are wrong or that they lied?
2. You still say there was gunfire from choppers as IDF commandos descended from ropes onto the Marmara deck. You saw the videos for yourself proving how ridiculous that claim is. IDF commandos were rappelling down, no gunfire was seen, the crowd didn't disperse or show they were getting shot at. But for some reason, despite the evidence, you so want to believe the worst. That's not criticism either. It's demonization/dehumanization. Again, why not admit your sources lied?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)negate that for you? and as I posted the little girl who's name is Raja was indeed killed as a result of an Israeli airstrike however the bomb did directly hit her and as to the Reuters correction here is the complete story
It states: “The three-year-old girl who had been reported killed by an Israeli air strike in Gaza on Wednesday actually died of an accident, Palestinian medical workers said on Thursday.”
The story accompanying that photo elaborates that while the missile which killed two PRC operatives did not itself strike Raja, health officials considered the deaths closely related.
“The head of the Palestinian ambulance service, Muawiyah Hassanein, said the girl fell from a swing at her home near the scene of the attack that killed two gunmen,” the Reuters story says.
"He believed the girl had fallen because of the sound of the blast," the story explains, and it quoted him saying that Raja "was not killed directly from the air strike".
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=471498
I can only imagine the outrage at the death of an Jewish Israeli child being whitewashed in such a manner
as for the Mavi Mamara do you deny that Israel confiscated video taken by the passangers of the Mamara only what fit their version of events to be released with of course captions that told us what we are seeing in case it was doubtful?
.
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)I've spoken up about it many times. Just like I speak up about folk like yrself who continually try to equate the Palestinians with Nazis...
shira
(30,109 posts)...is to equate Palestinians with Nazis?
Merely showing those videos of vile bigotry against Jews - by Palestinians - is bigoted, correct?
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)I was talking about a long and relentless history of comments in posts. As for intent, I suspectjust like anyone else who does it, yr intent is to equate Palestinians with Nazis.
shira
(30,109 posts)...is to equate Palestinians with Nazis?
When I make comments that accurately reflect the content of those disgusting videos, do you believe that's bigoted?
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)How about you try reading what yr replying to, and letting me know if there's something yr not understanding? Yr responses are so disconnected from what yr replying to that it's a bit bizarre...
shira
(30,109 posts)...in the last post. Comments I make here are based on those disgusting PMW videos and other PMW reports of Palestinian newspaper articles.
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)If you want to reply to me, try addressing what gets said to you, instead of galloping off in a different direction...
I don't give a shit where anyone draws their influences that they blame for making them do Nazi comparisons to either Israelis or Palestinians. The bottom line is it's revolting whether it's done to either group of people, and if there's anyone who tries to justify to me why it's okay for them to make such comparisons, they're going to be wasting their breath. Most of those sort of people will try to justify why it's okay for them to do it, but insist no-one else can, or insist it can only be aimed at the group they detest. Guess what? It doesn't matter who's doing it or who they're aiming it at, it's wrong...
shira
(30,109 posts)I criticize.
I don't demonize.
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)And equating the Palestinians with Nazis is every bit as much demonisation and wrong as it is when people do it to Israelis...
BanTheGOP
(1,068 posts)The original intent of the "moratorium" was not to provide for RHETORICAL comparisons between Nazi Germany and Israel. But the actions of the Israeli government MUST be held accountable, and as such, compared to the regimes of other despotic organizations when said comparisons are applicable. In every post I make, I detail the comparisons with great care so as to not show bias toward individuals whom do not have a say in the matter; ie, the non-republicanist Israeli citizens of any stripe.
I will ALWAYS condemn individuals, and, collectively, groups that emulate or promote the American republican Party way of life. The Israeli government is as close to the US right wing as any other country; no other country comes as near to such abuse and destruction, in fact. I do recognize the situation IS volatile; and let's face it: we ALL know that Israel is, FAR more often than not, guilty of international crimes, nearly on the scale as those committed by the US under a GOP regime. I for one am NOT going to pussyfoot the issue, but I WILL be EXTREMELY TARGETED in my criticism to avoid any actual violation of site protocol.
The bottom line: I am not going to worry about the feelings of others with regard to conflict in the Middle East. I will call it as I sees it, with care that what I call is not rhetorical, but backed with facts.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And you genuinely believe there is a reasonable comparison to be made between the current government of Israel and Nazi Germany?
BanTheGOP
(1,068 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Who would be some of the runners up?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Are you seriously comparing the IP conflict (which has caused the deaths of several thousand people over 65 years on both sides) with the Holocaust and WWII (and the subsequent tens of millions of deaths?)
There are many states that have (and are actively) committing genocide in the world. Why would you choose to focus on Israel at the expense of ignoring these organizations?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)"Jew" is simply not a slur. (Sure, in verb form it is, but lets keep it within the realm of common usage. ANY ethnic term is a slur if used in a bigoted context.)
Now, since you have not advocated for the removal of any state except the one that happens to be Jewish, (where you support the installation of a government chosen with a racial bias), it stands to reason that you have a supporting argument as to why. After all, the US and England have killed many, many times more people in the past few years in Iraq and Afghanistan than Israel ever has. Why is the single Jewish state alone singled out for "decertification."
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)
LeftishBrit
(41,202 posts)In particular, how do you on the one hand 'decertify' a country, put a particular political and demographic group in charge, and demilitarize it, while at the same time avoiding US or other 'meddling'? Basically, you're advocating for colonialism: someone else decides what the country should be turned into, and who should run it, and that it should be demilitarized. And you expect to achieve this without foreign interference! Who is going to enforce running the country in your chosen way - the Easter Bunny?
'A US ban on the Republican party' - much as I detest Republicans, how are you going to achieve this without utterly destroying democracy?
'Israel is 100% at fault ... pure and simple': That is an incredibly simplistic way of looking at ANY country; no different from the neocon creation of bogeynations; just a different country.
BanTheGOP
(1,068 posts)In Britain, the "right wing" party, although still not progressive, is nowhere near the abusiveness and callous ignorance of basic human rights that is both symbolic and demonstrative of the American republican Party. Look at the very nature of whom the party represents, as well as their tenets, which are in absolute opposition to the Constitution of many progressively developed countries, such as those in Europe. Even the far right fringe parties in Europe would be considered "center right" here in the US. The Tea Party is actually more extreme than the German Nazi Party in the 30's if you break down the context and edict of its tenets.
To that end, we can actually attack the party by going after its financing apparatus. We can use the same laws in place to fight criminal organizations, or the RICO statutes, to defund and, in effect, ban the republican Party. But we need rock solid legal representatives with BALLS OF STEEL. I'm willing to help any legal professional with the underlying discovery and research citations, providing them to whatever paralegal staff the professional uses at no cost.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)"In particular, how do you on the one hand 'decertify' a country, put a particular political and demographic group in charge, and demilitarize it, while at the same time avoiding US or other 'meddling'? Basically, you're advocating for colonialism: someone else decides what the country should be turned into, and who should run it, and that it should be demilitarized."
do you have a problem with that?
jimmie
(318 posts)not that I agree with anything you said but exactly WHO are these "progressive Arabs " you frequently laud?
Single persons or groups.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)What's that? Since when do you believe that states have been certified, and by whom? Are you suggesting that the UN disregard its keystone ideology of individual national sovereignty and begin to rule by fiat?
So let's get this straight... you desire the dismantling of Israel as a state to be replaced with a system organized by racist, authoritarian principles, (which is the only way to ensure the progressive Arab rule you mention.) Demilitarization would require some kind of outside, umbrella force that's cleared to use force to achieve its goals, otherwise what you're suggesting is impossible. (Look at Hezbollah wrt UN peacekeepers charged with the task of taking away their weapons. It was a joke.)
I'm not sure if you make the case for dismantling a functional democracy and replacing it with a racist authoritarian system, merely because you dislike the choices the people have arrived at. You certainly haven't made the case to replace US democracy with totalitarianism as you suggest. The last place that your ideas were enacted was the Soviet Union which most people agree was not an experiment worth replicating.
cali
(114,904 posts)I dislike stupid. I dislike hate. I really dislike the combination of the two.
shira
(30,109 posts)It wasn't the evil Zionist Israel that I had been told about
Growing up in a Muslim community in the UK I was exposed to materials condemning Israel, painting Jews as usurpers and murderers. My views were reinforced when I attended Nakba Day rallies where speakers predicted Israel's demise.
My hate for Israel and for the Jews was fuelled by images of death and destruction, set to the backdrop of Arabic melodies about Jihad and speeches of Hizbollah leader Hasan Nasrallah or Osama Bin Laden.
There was also constant, casual antisemitism around me. My father would boast of how Adolf Hitler was a hero, his only failing being that he didn't kill enough Jews. Even the most moderate clerics I came across refused to condemn terrorism against Israel as unjustified.
http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/comment/56021/from-antisemite-zionist