Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumElie Wiesel and Amos Yadlin congratulate East Jerusalem settlers
Maj. Gen. (ret.) Amos Yadlin of the centrist think tank is among the signatories of an ad praising the Jewish settlers who entered 25 apartments in the Palestinian neighborhood of Silwan last week. By your act of settlement you make us all stand taller, the ad reads. Yadlin and Wiesel serve on the public council of Elad, the organization behind the settlement in Silwan.The City of David archaeological park, against the background of Silwan (photo: JC/Activestills.org)
One of the most dramatic settlement efforts in decades took place a couple of weeks ago, when 25 apartments in the Palestinian neighborhood Silwan, in East Jerusalem, were occupied by Jewish settlers. Silwan is the prize trophy for the settler movement, since it sits right on the edge of the Old City, inside the Holy Basin. The new Israeli push into the Palestinian part of the city was condemned by the international community and stood at the heart of the media coverage during Netanyahus visit to the U.S. The settlement effort, White House spokesman Josh Earnest said, was carried out by individuals who are associated with an organization whose agenda, by definition, stokes tensions between Israelis and Palestinians.
The settlement activities in Silwan are carried out by a non-governmental organization called Elad, which is said to have had good ties with the Prime Ministers Office and the Jerusalem Municipality. The government appointed Elad to run City of David, the Jewish archaeological site in Silwan, and an attempt to give Elad rights near the Western Wall was recently struck down by the High Court.
Peace groups and investigative journalists have been warning for years about the role Elad plays in changing the demographic and political reality in East Jerusalem. (A comprehensive background document to the Israeli effort to take over Silwan can be found here.) Elad itself doesnt have a web site, and the government has granted it a waiver from the requirement to disclose its considerable financial sources.
in full: http://972mag.com/elie-wiesel-and-amos-yadlin-congratulate-east-jerusalem-settlers/97540/
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Jews should be allowed to live in Silwan. This is a neighborhood where Jews have lived for generations prior to the Jordanian occupation of 1948. When Israeli Jews move into these neighborhoods it is called "occupation" but not when Israeli Arabs do. If Israeli Arabs are able to live in E Jerusalem with no objection, why can't Israeli Jews?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)circumstances did the transactions take place. If accurate the sale would not eliminate the
real and deep problem for Palestinians. This Israeli government is going to take it all for their
capital and I find your question disingenuous.
Israeli
(4,132 posts)The Jewish tenants who moved into 25 apartments in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Silwan on Sept. 30 really irked former Labor Party Minister Ophir Pines. Not because it was a provocative move by the right wing designed to make it hard to divide the city; there have been similar actions in the past. What upset Pines is the silence of the center-left parties.
Few Israeli politicians have given up a ministerial position for reasons of ideology and values. Pines is one of them. In 2006, when he was viewed as a rising star in the Labor Party and on the left and served as minister of science, culture and sport, Pines resigned from Ehud Olmert's government after Avigdor Liberman came on board as deputy prime minister. In 2010, he left the Knesset after failing to convince his party to remain in the opposition rather than join the right-wing government headed by Benjamin Netanyahu. Therefore, unlike others, when Pines calls on Justice Minister Tzipi Livni and Finance Minister Yair Lapid to quit the government, he has the moral standing to do so.
Theres some theory nowadays that says that if Arabs are allowed to live in Jewish neighborhoods, Jews are also allowed to live in Arab ones. That, of course, is not accurate. Jews who want to live in Arab neighborhoods are the last ones to be interested in coexistence. They have different goals. These are not people who will promote peace. They want to promote a Jewish Jerusalem, as opposed to the Arabs who come to Jewish neighborhoods to upgrade their standard of living, who want coexistence.
Theres an attempt by the Israeli right to determine irreversible facts on the ground that will make it impossible to establish two states. We know this, and the question is why do we agree to this. Why do we shut our eyes and let it happen?
Bringing down Netanyahu will be possible first and foremost by not accepting his way and confronting him in that arena. Every day that Justice Minister Livni, Minister for Environmental Protection Amir Peretz, Knesset member [Amram] Mitzna and Finance Minister Yair Lapid, and Knesset member Ofer Shelach and all the folks there remain in the Netanyahu government, it means they agree with his way and with everything he does. That is, playing for time and failing to make peace. They have to leave the coalition over the diplomatic issue. I left a government when Liberman joined because he and I dont have even the lowest of common denominators
Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/10/ophir-pines-labor-party-israeli-left-netanyahu-right.html#ixzz3FxpshqvY
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Israeli
(4,132 posts)....at least be grateful that they are not calling Ophir Pines-Paz a self hating Jew and/or an antisemitic and/or a traitor Jefferson.
King_David
(14,851 posts)You been hanging around on the wrong sites because I have never seen that here.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Having legally purchased a apartment from their previous owners and now moving in.
What's really disgusting is murdering the sellers of their own apartments,legally and in cold blood because it was sold to a Jew.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Israel wants all of Jerusalem for their capital, so why pretend you don't get it?
King_David
(14,851 posts)But not a Jew?
Also it's in an area of Jerusalem abutting on the old city, it's never going to be a part of any other state but Israel no matter what the political stripe of government.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Your opinion as to the final status of Jerusalem is noted. Keep in mind, please, that this
attitude is exactly why the Palestinians should consider regaining their land through
the international courts. How they cooperate with each other after that, is up to
them.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Just like Alex Kane of Mondoweiss who advised hamas not to accept the Egypt ceasefire now they getting lots of "leadership "from armchair western activists.
Meanwhile if it becomes a choice between that and the status quo a viable state is probably better.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)that Palestinians will not have a viable state without EJ..which they are entitled to.
Carlos Rodrigez
(69 posts)if time is on the Palestinians side.
On the one hand, the more time goes by, the more settlements.
On the other hand, the more babies the Palestinians will have.
So all in all, if time is on the Palestinian side, they need worry less about these settlements. If time is not on their side, they should conciliate enough to end this conflict. They are doing neither.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Well that's not settled yet.
Even Obama wasn't sure on the status of Jerusalem at the beginning of his presidency...it's far from clear.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)And most likely the area of Silwan will always be part of Israel same as the Kotel.
Of course you won't have any say in it and it will be up to Palestinian and Israeli negotiators and I don't think western armchair wannabe leaders of the Palestinians will have any input.
Period .
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)give a damn.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Even Obama was not so sure, he never personally himself retracted this.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Through the international courts there is no controversy over EJ, it belongs to the Palestinians, period.
If anyone does not support that, no matter who they are, they should be aware they will be denying
the opportunity for a viable state.
King_David
(14,851 posts)The Status of East Jerusalem needs to be established in final negotiations.
Its not clearly occupied,it was liberated by Israel from an occupation and now will be part of negotiations between Israel and Palestinian negotiators.
What western supporters or wannabe leaders of the Palestinians say is law or decide it belongs to is not really relevant.
It is far from clear,far from decided and will still have to be negotiated.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)said, the US under Republicans and Democratic presidents do not see it otherwise.
There exists no legal obligation for the Palestinians to negotiate with Israel, that is political pressure.
If they're acting in the best interests of their people, they will take their cause to the courts.
Israel will not give them anything but a town, if that, and that will not enable a viable state.
King_David
(14,851 posts)There is no other way .
Legal obligations are irrelevant.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)such as Alex Kane of Mondoweiss who counseled Hamas to reject the Egyptian ceasefire.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)You're also suggesting the Palestinians receive less than they need for a viable state, which
will not bring peace.
King_David
(14,851 posts)They educated probable predictions.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Carlos Rodrigez
(69 posts)international law entitles Palestinians to East Jerusalem?
King_David
(14,851 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)POSITIONS ON THE LEGAL STATUS OF JERUSALEM
FACT SHEET
Also available in Deutsch
The legal status of Jerusalem is highly disputed between scholars and politicians. There are no legal documents that clearly settle the status of Jerusalem. In Israeli-Palestinian negotiations the discussion about the status of Jerusalem has always been postponed, like i.e. in the Oslo Accords, 1993. Therefore it does not exist any legally binding bilateral or international treaty that would clarify the legal status of Jerusalem.
In 1980 the Knesset declared Jerusalem to be Israels eternal and indivisible capital, including the territory of the 1967 occupied East Jerusalem. No other country, however, has recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
Palestinians, on the other hand, declare East Jerusalem (the territory east of the 1948 armistice line, also known as the green line) as the capital of a future Palestinian State.
Within the International Community it is argued, that the whole city of Jerusalem (East and West) is still under international control according to General Assembly Resolution 181 (1947). This resolution envisaged the separation of the historic Palestine in a Jewish and an Arabic part and saw Jerusalem as a separate entity under international trusteeship. Subsequent UN resolutions, it is argued, refer to resolution 181 and bilateral negotiations excluded the topic of Jerusalem. Also, the EU repeatedly declared their adherence to the Corpus Separatum plan. According to this point of view, all administrative and legislative action taken by Israel in Jerusalem East and West, would be invalid.
http://www.kas.de/palaestinensische-gebiete/en/pages/11509/
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)want the international court to hear the case years ago was because they knew
the illegal status would hold. This nonsense will not carry weight if the Palestinians
go back, but this time it would not result in an advisory status. If Israel did not comply,
sanctions could be imposed until they do.
King_David
(14,851 posts)As I said it is far from being clear.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)The status of Jerusalem will have to be negotiated.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Because Israelis are Israelis, and east Jerusalem is not part of Israel, but rather occupied territory, and thus any movement of population to or from the territory is against international law
You still haven't explained to me why you believe Israelis, alone among all human beings on the face of the earth, do not have to follow the international laws and treaties that they are party to, Dave.
Carlos Rodrigez
(69 posts)Scootaloo appears unable to explain why Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem is any less legal than Israel's annexation of West Jerusalem.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Besides a few extremist kahanists, everyone acknowledges the occupied status of the east. The occupied status of the west (and in fact a lot beyond that) is a bigger, more slog-ridden argument. So. Let's keep it simple for the moment; East Jerusalem.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Richard Silverstein ummm is that you?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Might want to make sure of that and edit as necessary.
King_David
(14,851 posts)That is why I asked.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Thought you were asking if I thought Richard Silverstein was an extremist kahanist.
King_David
(14,851 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)To buy a house ?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)Is far from settled.
It is going to be the most difficult part of the final negotiation.
In the end it will not matter what the USA western Palestinian supporters and wannabee leaders say, the Palestinian negotiators and Israeli negotiators will have to settle it.
This will be the biggest challenge in the end and probably will require major concessions on both sides.
My prediction is Ramallah will be the new east Jerusalem.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)It was outside Israel
Israel invaded and occupied it.
It's occupied.
This isn't complicated stuff Dave.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Who was responsible for Jerusalem prior to 1948 and even prior to the Ottomans and Romans etc?
Jews had always lived there...always, except when it was under occupation by Jordan when Jews were expelled.
Jerusalem was liberated .
Now the final status will be negotiated and my money is on it remaining as it is now, with concessions being made and Ramallah being confirmed as the new capital of the independent state of Palestine.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Jerusalem lay outside of Israel. Israel invaded and occupied Jerusalem. Therefore Jerusalem is occupied by Israel.
Who lived there in 35 BCE isn't particularly relevant to the status and obligations of Jerusalem and the modern states of Israel and Palestine. because if we play that game, the whole patch of land belongs to gingers; as the last demonstrable descendants of neanderthals.
King_David
(14,851 posts)What is relevant is who will be living there when its settled.
West bank is occupied.Gaza is not. Jerusalem is not clear cut.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Gaza is occupied. The west bank is occupied. Jerusalem is occupied. Palestine is occupied - as is southwestern Syria, for that matter.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Peregrine
(992 posts)If memory serves, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and Palestinians invaded Israel. And the "occupied" territories were a result of the Arab aggressors losing. So who violated your precious international law? Who still calls for the destruction of Israel and the genocide of its people? Who stripped Palestinians of national citizenship? During the most recent Gaza engagement, who wouldn't let Palestinians cross into their country to escape the carnage. They also don't let supplies to cross into Gaza. It ain't Israel.
Carlos Rodrigez
(69 posts)"It was outside Israel
Israel invaded and occupied it.
It's occupied.
This isn't complicated stuff Dave. "
As for West Jerusalem, Israel also invaded and occupied. Yet somehow Scoot says that one is complicated.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I've covered the status of the whole of jerusalem before. Since you seem fascinated with me, maybe do a search.