Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumDoes Israel Have to Be Likable?
It's no secret that Israel has a bit of a P.R. problem. Especially after this summer's graphic Gaza operation, Israel supporters across the country have their hands wringing: how do you make Israel likable? How do you make the case for Israel when Israel has bigger guns and smaller casualties? Against a backdrop of bloody pictures from Gaza, garnering sympathy for the Jewish state seems almost impossible.
There are a couple of different strategies. One is touting Israel's liberalism -- democracy, free speech, and so forth. This goes along with Israel's technological achievements.
Another is everyone's famous word: context, context, context. Reframing the conflict. While much of the world labels the crisis the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it is really the Arab-Israeli conflict. Israel is clearly the underdog in the middle of a hostile Middle East. Just factoring in the reality of the Palestinian state being an Iranian client state escalates things quickly.
These are all important points to make. Necessary, even. Yet there is also an inherent flaw here: Trying to cast Israel as the likable underdog goes against the very reason Israel was established.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amanda-botfeld/does-israel-have-to-be-li_b_5984446.html
A message from the (Jewish) youth of America.
Amanda Botfeld is Editor-in-Chief of the Leviathan Jewish Journal at the University of California, Santa Cruz. She writes about Israel, politics, and things that are Jew-ish.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)I'm not sure what she means by this: You can't be a Zionist and try to make Israel small.
Schlock is more apt in describing her opinion.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Turkey and China, for instance, are viewed more favorably internationally than Israel.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)long as bit of a PR issue, she is as lost as anyone who looks to minimize that brutality by
placing it against another countries ills. That has the undertones of suggesting the attention
is not about the occupation but about who is inflicting it...long worn out excuses.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Maybe she'll come around to your point of view as she gets older.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I think it is as immature as the op-ed from the unnamed 25 year old. Both give a good window though into how young people view things.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Not "anything" she's written.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)should we not condemn them because someone in Russia kicked a puppy, too?
False equivalency drives me nuts, as does denying culpability because someone, somewhere, somehow has also committed a crime.
Crime is crime. Palestinians commit crimes, and Israelis do, too.
Neither are inviolate of sin in the conflict.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)That is the whole concept behind "hasbara".
bemildred
(90,061 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I think there may be a few other factors involved as well.
hack89
(39,171 posts)it certainly cannot be argued that the world is a better place with more countries like Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Syria is a state that has been run by an inherited Stalinist dictatorship since the 50's and is at th moment in the throes of crumbling apart thanks to a three-year civil war and the conquest of its eastern reaches by a fundamentalist semi-nation made of roving bandits who may or may not eat people.
So sure. Israel looks good compared to that.
Compared to any state whose history doesn't follow the trajectory of the Mad Max movies, though, Israel loses its luster.
hack89
(39,171 posts)none as far as I can see.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)Great health care, open secular society, innovative economy.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)the "secular" bit is ridiculous (the US is an officially secular state, Israel is an officially Jewish state), and economically, inequality is growing faster than in other developed countries:-
http://www.haaretz.com/business/study-income-inequality-growing-faster-in-israel-than-in-other-developed-nations-1.421277
Israel is a horrible place. You win.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It is a secular democracy - both formally and informally.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)It's not the US and it's not Saudi Arabia. There are plenty of Israeli policies that wouldn't fly if they had a first amendment. For example, the openly discriminatory immigration policies, the lack of inter-religious marriages, etc.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Read the Israeli Declaration of Independence and the Basic Laws.
The country also has one of the highest percentages of citizenry who identify as secular (or non-religious) in the world.
Much higher than the United States.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Sweden is not a secular state (it is an officially Lutheran state). Britain is not a secular state. France is an officially secular state, as is the United States.
If the US had a chief pastor, it would not be a secular state. If France had a Chief Priest, it would not be a secular state. Israel has a Chief Rabbi (two of them, in fact). It is therefore not a secular state.
Israel also has religiously constituted courts, religious tests that are used to determine issues of obtaining citizenship, and it defers to religious authorities on questions of who is considered Jewish. Israel also forbids civil marriage and divorce in virtually all instances, meaning that religious authorities hold a near monopoly on issues of marriage and divorce.
It is not a secular state.
King_David
(14,851 posts)It's never looked good and never would or will
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)Whatever that means?
Which state has officially been a Jewish State?
Who makes it official DU IP group or Mondoweiss or The UNHRC ?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)exist in Israeli law. Perhaps you'll believe oberliner, see his post in this thread.
Bibi made efforts to make it official fairly recently, but his efforts failed.
Your other Mondoweiss comments are silly, have no merit but do speak to your confusion.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Israel is the Jewish State , I am not confused , almost every world leader including Obama refer to it that way as well as every major media organization and even terror orgs. Such as ISIS .
It's the essence of Hamas ' being.
It's the very reason for Palestinian supporters in the USA and Europe.
Official not necessary, it is....
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Bibi was trying to make it official, which had never been done before...he wanted to use
it as a means to negate any RoR in future negotiations.
Secular Jews not likely to ever be in agreement with seeing it made official, especially written
by Netanyahu. For someone who claims to be a non believer, as you do, I would think you'd
be aware of the issue and why his efforts failed.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Israel is the Jewish state.
I'm not confused at all.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)be successful at making it official.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Israel is the Jewish state .
Democratic , Secular and Jewish.
The rest of the argument is just noise.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)It is another indication of your inability to make distinctions of official within Israel
and how that would impact secular Jews.
King_David
(14,851 posts)The only ignorance is those denying that Israel is the Jewish state .
Official or not is irrelevant and it makes no difference what "opinion" has it at--- it's fact.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)That is your problem you can't fix with emoticons and pure denial...it's not based on opinion.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Nothing to do with Bibi or Santa or the Lochness monster... It's just fact.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)secular Jews and Israeli Arabs/Palestinians...Bibi failed to accomplish that goal.
In response to prime minister's plan to legalize Israel's status as Jewish nation state, Hadash head also says law would make Israel the first racist country in the 21st century.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's attempt to pass a Jewish state law in the Knesset is a euphemism for blowing up the last chance to reach a two-state solution along the 1967 lines, a senior Palestinian official said Thursday.
Responding to Netanyahu's announcement on Thursday that he plans to push forward a new Basic Law to "legally anchor" Israel's status as "the nation-state of the Jewish people," the Palestinian official issued a statement that the PLO already recognized Israel in 1988 and again in the 1993 mutual recognition agreement signed by Yasser Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin.
"If Netanyahu wants to push the Palestinians into the corner he should also remember that the only reference to the Jewish State is the 1947 UN Resolution 181. The Palestinians, as such, will be ready to consider recognizing Israel as the Jewish State only based on Resolution 181. Nothing more. Nothing less," the official said.
Knesset Member Mohammed Barakeh (Hadash) said Netanyahu's announcement complements the slew of racist legislation in the Knesset in recent years and that such a law would make Israel the first racist country in the 21-st century. Barakeh added that the passing of such a bill would revive the international community's definition of Zionism and racism.
in full: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.588573
King_David
(14,851 posts)It's fact.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)making it official, you let me know. Until then, the non-believer you claim to be, is
poorly informed on existing Israeli policy. I will remember this conversation with you
when you speak to another DU member here, accusing him of not know much of
anything about Israel's policies, domestic and foreign...because that would be you,
not him, that fits that description.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Want or Post your opinion and support any other DUr opinion no matter how misinformed.
But arguing that Israel is not the Jewish State either officially or not officially or endorsed by whatever authority you choose or not is irrelevant and only makes such person appear foolish and is just plain silly.
It is what it is and Israel is the Jewish state and that's just fact.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)etertainment your denial has brought to the discussion.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Cheers!
procon
(15,805 posts)Soulless lack of humanity. Touting a democary in an apartheid state that excludes segments of the population that have differing ethnic and religion affliations does no warrant bragging rights. Being aggressively militaristic and stealing land, properties and natural resources from neighboring countries is not going to disappear with a little PR shinola. And refering to Israel as an "underdog" is a poor attempt at whitewashing history.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Israel does not have a "soulless lack of humanity" and the state does not exclude segments of the population. It is actually one of the most diverse countries in the world in terms of ethnic and religious affiliations, all with equal rights under the law.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)"Soulless lack of humanity" is an opinon.
"Being aggressively militaristic"
True.
"stealing land, properties and natural resources from neighboring countries"
Stealing land, properties and natural resources is true, whether they are stealing it from a "neighboring country" is debatable.
"an apartheid state that excludes segments of the population that have differing ethnic and religion affliations"
This is clearly true if you include occupied territories, which after almost 50 years can be considered permanently under Israeli control. Israel proper is not an apartheid state, but it is still discriminatory in many ways, for example, anyone Jewish from anywhere in the world can move there, but Palestinians who used to live there and were forcefully evicted can't. Even Palestinians who are married to Israeli citizens can't generally move there to be with their family.
procon
(15,805 posts)the entrenched colonialist and apartheid policies of a half century of unresolved, institutional terrorism under Israeli occupation give ample evidence that dispel such claims as "equal rights". The millions of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories have no voice in the government that controls everything in their daily lives through an oppressive military occupation.
Examples of Israels explicit discriminatory practices are hardly invisible when the Israeli military exercises absolute control over freedom of movement. Look at how the Law of Return affects Palestinians, or the Draconian laws that bar Palestinians who marry Israelis from living with their spouses in Israel, or the disparity in education which must include the military reprisals against Palestinian schools... is that equality?
The construction of a separation wall that split properties, separate ID requirements, separate roads, water, and electrical systems, these are hardly inclusive gestures. The poverty and unemployment rates demonstrate just how "equal" those rights are when non-Jews are barred from military service which then excludes them from a broad spectrum of public services and benefits that effectively diminishes their economic, political and civil opportunities.
MFM008
(19,782 posts)They keep sucking up our $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The US Military Budget is $495.6 billion.
Aid to Israel is less than half of one percent of that.
And most of it comes back to the US in the form of Israel buying our military hardware.
Krishna Vijaya
(19 posts)half of one percent of that.
Plus considering the US has 318 million people, and Israel has 8 million, the US spends 24% as much defending each Israeli as it spends defending each American. Then again, most of the miliary aid has to be spent on US equipment that Israel would not otherwise buy. US military aid to every country is partially intended as a subsidy for the US Defense Industrial Complex.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Do the math. It is less than one half of one percent of the US defense budget.
Response to oberliner (Reply #50)
Name removed Message auto-removed
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)really what the US military budget is compared with what we contribute in foreign aid to any other country is unimportant, generally speaking we will spend more on ourselves
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)would it be fair to say, they are on one hand a state that defines itself secular and at the same
time has many contradictions..such as the governments decision to keep to Jewish dietary rules
even though a significant percent are secular..there are many more contradictions, seems a bit
of a paradox to me. As this thread indicates, not much agreement about that, but it is true, an
official Jewish state it is not.
We've been complicit for far too long on the arms deals.
Urge the U.S. Government to stop arming Israel
http://act.amnestyusa.org/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1839&ea.campaign.id=30408&ea.tracking.id=MessagingCategory_PrisonersandPeopleatRisk~MessagingCategory_ChildrensRights~MessagingCategory_InternationalJustice